Why do subs go active immediately at 10+ sensor strength while passive is negative?

Halcyon · 09-20-17, 01:58 PM

I can stalk a tango with -3 or lower on their passive sonar strength, but as soon as active goes to 10, they start pinging.

Why would they start pinging if they haven't heard me? And it's always as soon as the active value is 10 or higher.

Just because they could detect me if they went active doesn't mean they should immediately go active as soon as that sensor strength threshold is passed.

Something is screwed up with the algorithm for this.

-Pv- · 09-20-17, 02:35 PM

There may be more to this. I've had opfor active estimates go much higher than this without detection for long periods of time. If I get detected by some other means though, a high active rating seems to guarantee a ping in my direction will nail me.

The other consideration is what is to prevent the opfor in question from pinging occasionally (especially surface ships which cannot hide) as a result of defensive doctrine? Surely a high active rating in this case is almost meaningless.

Added:
I'm thinking I'd rather be in the baffles of such a contact but the game seems to lean toward a shoot first, ask questions later type of strategy. Not sure this game design can survive the introduction of friendly or neutral forces into the scenario mix.

Added:
There is also the possibility you were detected by another vessel you weren't monitoring?
-Pv-

Julhelm · 09-20-17, 03:03 PM

They don't, but noiser subs are more prone to conducting frequent active searches than quiet ones.

Halcyon · 09-20-17, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pv-

There is also the possibility you were detected by another vessel you weren't monitoring?
-Pv-

No. A tango and a foxtrot were both passively tracked. It was a spetznaz insertion...I've never seen 3 boats on those, only 2.
Both boats had negative passive sonar values.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

They don't, but noiser subs are more prone to conducting frequent active searches than quiet ones.

These are diesel subs. They're supposed to be quieter then my los angeles.
And why does it always happen as soon as it gets to positive 10?

I've never seen a russian sub ping with an active value lower then 10.

-Pv- · 09-21-17, 12:06 AM

"These are diesel subs. They're supposed to be quieter then my los angeles."

In the default 1.07d game, the selfnoise stats for diesel subs are:
Juliet = 160
Kilo = 125
Tango = 132
Foxtrot = 130
Romeo = 130
Whisky = 152

The default LA is 115
The weakness in this regard might be due to the age and prop technology for these types of subs.
-Pv-

Halcyon · 09-21-17, 01:34 PM

Happened again.

My LA boat vs 2 victor II's and a charlie. All 3 subs were at negative passive sonar strength, and I watched the active value creep from 3 to 5, to 7, and finally 9.

As soon as the closest victor hit 10, BAM...he used his active sonar. Passive was still negative. And of course he turned directly towards me after the first ping.

It's a bit ridiculous honestly. How am I supposed to stalk subs if they go active the moment the value hits 10, regardless of whether they can hear me or not?

It's like they have an automatic motion sensor around their boat and once you breach the radius the active starts going off.

-Pv- · 09-21-17, 01:47 PM

Sounds like this is worth investigating if the "noiser subs are more prone to conducting frequent active searches than quiet ones" trigger is a randomized time interval, artificial trigger based on the active probability, or the active display is actually showing the vessel active search interval is about to time out.

Contrary to this, I have seen the Active display go a lot higher than 10 with no pings from the target when I play the default sim.
-Pv-

chillbro baggins · 09-21-17, 03:04 PM

As Jive Turkey mentioned once or twice, going active was SOP for Russian boats, because their passive sonar was kinda crap. They had a different mindset than the American boats.

-Pv- · 09-21-17, 03:40 PM

I think what I'm getting from Halcyon is the going active is maybe announcing itself predictably. I agree they should be doing it.
Thinking players could watch for this happening to see if true. So far, I haven't been able to observe this.
-Pv-

Julhelm · 09-21-17, 06:03 PM

Seems to be a thing actually.

Halcyon · 09-21-17, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Seems to be a thing actually.

Glad I'm not going crazy.

-Pv- · 09-21-17, 10:38 PM

Good Work!
-Pv-

Killerfish Games · 09-22-17, 08:23 PM

Agree that something strange is going on here, looking into it.

Halcyon · 09-22-17, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killerfish Games

Agree that something strange is going on here, looking into it.

Qosmius · 09-26-17, 11:15 AM

Happens to me all the time..

I can stalk a submarine that has 9 in active ping search and minus in passive for hours.

The moment i pass 10 in active sonar he starts pinging after some seconds.Been like this aslong as i can remember in the game.

09-20-17, 01:58 PM	#1
Halcyon Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 106 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 3	Why do subs go active immediately at 10+ sensor strength while passive is negative? I can stalk a tango with -3 or lower on their passive sonar strength, but as soon as active goes to 10, they start pinging. Why would they start pinging if they haven't heard me? And it's always as soon as the active value is 10 or higher. Just because they could detect me if they went active doesn't mean they should immediately go active as soon as that sensor strength threshold is passed. Something is screwed up with the algorithm for this.

09-20-17, 02:35 PM	#2
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	There may be more to this. I've had opfor active estimates go much higher than this without detection for long periods of time. If I get detected by some other means though, a high active rating seems to guarantee a ping in my direction will nail me. The other consideration is what is to prevent the opfor in question from pinging occasionally (especially surface ships which cannot hide) as a result of defensive doctrine? Surely a high active rating in this case is almost meaningless. Added: I'm thinking I'd rather be in the baffles of such a contact but the game seems to lean toward a shoot first, ask questions later type of strategy. Not sure this game design can survive the introduction of friendly or neutral forces into the scenario mix. Added: There is also the possibility you were detected by another vessel you weren't monitoring? -Pv- Last edited by -Pv-; 09-20-17 at 05:25 PM.

09-21-17, 12:06 AM	#5
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	"These are diesel subs. They're supposed to be quieter then my los angeles." In the default 1.07d game, the selfnoise stats for diesel subs are: Juliet = 160 Kilo = 125 Tango = 132 Foxtrot = 130 Romeo = 130 Whisky = 152 The default LA is 115 The weakness in this regard might be due to the age and prop technology for these types of subs. -Pv- Last edited by -Pv-; 09-21-17 at 01:41 PM.

09-22-17, 08:23 PM	#13
Killerfish Games Cold Waters Developer Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 274 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Agree that something strange is going on here, looking into it. __________________ Visit Killerfish Games for more info and ongoing discussion.

09-20-17, 03:03 PM	#3
Julhelm Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Icy North Posts: 690 Downloads: 189 Uploads: 0	They don't, but noiser subs are more prone to conducting frequent active searches than quiet ones.

09-21-17, 01:34 PM	#6
Halcyon Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 106 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 3	Happened again. My LA boat vs 2 victor II's and a charlie. All 3 subs were at negative passive sonar strength, and I watched the active value creep from 3 to 5, to 7, and finally 9. As soon as the closest victor hit 10, BAM...he used his active sonar. Passive was still negative. And of course he turned directly towards me after the first ping. It's a bit ridiculous honestly. How am I supposed to stalk subs if they go active the moment the value hits 10, regardless of whether they can hear me or not? It's like they have an automatic motion sensor around their boat and once you breach the radius the active starts going off.

09-21-17, 01:47 PM	#7
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Sounds like this is worth investigating if the "noiser subs are more prone to conducting frequent active searches than quiet ones" trigger is a randomized time interval, artificial trigger based on the active probability, or the active display is actually showing the vessel active search interval is about to time out. Contrary to this, I have seen the Active display go a lot higher than 10 with no pings from the target when I play the default sim. -Pv-

09-21-17, 03:04 PM	#8
chillbro baggins Swabbie Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 8 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	As Jive Turkey mentioned once or twice, going active was SOP for Russian boats, because their passive sonar was kinda crap. They had a different mindset than the American boats.

09-21-17, 03:40 PM	#9
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I think what I'm getting from Halcyon is the going active is maybe announcing itself predictably. I agree they should be doing it. Thinking players could watch for this happening to see if true. So far, I haven't been able to observe this. -Pv-

09-21-17, 06:03 PM	#10
Julhelm Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Icy North Posts: 690 Downloads: 189 Uploads: 0	Seems to be a thing actually.

09-21-17, 10:38 PM	#12
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Good Work! -Pv-

09-26-17, 11:15 AM	#15
Qosmius Bilge Rat Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 1 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Happens to me all the time.. I can stalk a submarine that has 9 in active ping search and minus in passive for hours. The moment i pass 10 in active sonar he starts pinging after some seconds.Been like this aslong as i can remember in the game.