Missions designed for 1.03 - LWAMI?

Sea Demon · 04-18-06, 06:43 PM

I have two missions basically finished and in testing. I designed these in DW stock with 1.03 patch. I'm assuming most people here have LWAMI. Will my missions be playable in LWAMI if I made them without LWAMI? I want to get this right before I send them over to the Subguru.

Bellman · 04-18-06, 09:37 PM

They will be playable but will platforms perform as you had intended is more the question.

Why not run the Stock mission in LwAmi and test if unit sensor and weapon performance gives you what you
want to achieve. Then adjust ranges, platform separation etc. But it is unlikely that you will achieve mutual playability
of Stock and LwAmi from one mission. Better to modify the Stocks into extra LwAmi specific missions.

Sea Demon · 04-18-06, 10:22 PM

OK. Thanks for your advice, Bellman. I'll do that. The ranges that the platforms are deployed may need changing depending on sonar conditions. Looks like I may have another week of testing with LWAMI to see if it these 2 missions are playable. I'll be releasing these two missions next week.

Thanks again.

Molon Labe · 04-18-06, 11:59 PM

I can think of four ways that the balance might change going from stock to LW/Ami

1. AEGIS ships are effective counterunits to missile attack
2. SS-N-27 ASM more effective (could be a problem if there are no AEGIS ships to counterbalance)
3. AI air platforms are much more effective in prosecuting contacts
4. AI surface platforms will use ASROCs effectively (especially Udaloys) and are a serious threat to subs.

There may be a few others, but for the most part I don't think there's much of a problem using the same missions. Just keep in mind that if you don't have the mod, the things that the mod makes work, won't work!

Bellman · 04-19-06, 03:17 AM

One small grouse - we are constantly asked to design 'for LwAmi.' What happens is generaly speaking
the MP scenario disappears down a Black Hole of complete silence and lack of reaction.

Criticism and suggestions are FEEDBACK. Personaly I would like to have the opportunity, if required, to
make adjustments to improve the gaming experience. How else can progress be made ?

Molon Labe · 04-19-06, 08:52 AM

The requests to design for LW/Ami originated back in the days of 1.01, when detection ranges were significantly different between the stock and modded versions. That DID make a huge difference, so it was important to keep that in mind when designing missions. I think a lot of people hear about missions designed for LW/Ami and think that it's still a big issue today, and a good majority of the requests to design for it are based on this out-of-date perspective.

So, unless it's clear that there is a specific, relevant difference that the requester would like to see put to good use in a new mission (say for example, AI helo prosecution), I wouldn't sweat it too much.

In a sense, it's actually stock DW that you may have to design missions specifically for, since the main difference between stock and LW/Ami is that in LW/Ami, platforms and weapons work the way they're supposed to. In stock, you may have to compensate for things not doing their jobs.

Bellman · 04-19-06, 08:58 AM

Good point ML.

You are right to poiint out that the actuality with LwAmi no longer conforms to our expectations from
past performance.

Bellman · 04-20-06, 01:04 AM

However SD posed his question from the standpoint of a designer with finished Stock product.

Some stock AIs may be seen to perform more aggressively in LwAmi. Is this now appropriate to what was intended ?
Will tests in LwAmi reveal 'some' other significant weapons and sonar performance characteristics, inappropriate in
this instance ? The issue can be one of tuning/ and tweaking, and balancing in some cases
making small adjustments at the margins. Finessing ?

Sea Demon · 04-29-06, 07:41 PM

You're totally correct Bellman. I find that these two missions I made do need some additional tweaking to make them playable for LWAMI. Otherwise they take too long for anything to happen. I'll have to adjust some distances for detection distances to work correctly.

Therefore I'll need an additional couple of days before I release these two missions. BTW, I'm doing this because I believe most users are now playing DW with the LWAMI mod installed.

Sea Demon

Werewolf13 · 05-13-06, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Therefore I'll need an additional couple of days before I release these two missions. BTW, I'm doing this because I believe most users are now playing DW with the LWAMI mod installed.

I on the other hand don't believe that. IMO the hard to medium core DW guys have installed the Mod and the average and/or more casual players have not and I guarantee that they outnumber the aforementioned group.

It would probably be very worthwhile to do a poll on one of the DW forums - then again it is likely that only the hardcore DW players frequent the forums and any poll would be statisticaly skewed.

Hmmmm....
A conundrum...

LuftWolf · 05-14-06, 02:39 AM

Not to be harsh (and this has nothing to do with the mod, very good players also play exclusively stock), but the gap between the average player and the good player is VERY SIGNIFICANT in DW.

My suggestion is to only play good players (they aren't hard to find), or the DW experience in MP will not be very satisfying, and you won't get any better.

FERdeBOER · 05-15-06, 05:09 PM

Question: is the "new" detection range on LWAMI mod visible on the editor?
I asked this because if yes, it will be far easier to make the changes needed for the adaption from the editor than testing again everything.

LuftWolf · 05-15-06, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FERdeBOER

Question: is the "new" detection range on LWAMI mod visible on the editor?
I asked this because if yes, it will be far easier to make the changes needed for the adaption from the editor than testing again everything.

Ignore the ranges for sonars entirely. There is simply no way to figure out detection ranges in the editor exclusively.

Other sensors ranges may be valid.

Just so you know, from a design perspective, YOU should be saying to yourself "what ranges do I want to have for this mission/what ranges would work best for this scenario" and then adjust the environmental parameters accordingly.

The acoustic conditions are like the terrain on a land battlefield. Designing missions for land-based games always always starts with the design of the terrain as the major shaping factor. So it is with the acoustic conditions in Dangerous Waters.

You should have a clear idea the kind of conditions you want your battle to take place in because they are the determining factor in the battle being met by each side in a particular way.

04-18-06, 06:43 PM	#1
Sea Demon Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,552 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	Missions designed for 1.03 - LWAMI? I have two missions basically finished and in testing. I designed these in DW stock with 1.03 patch. I'm assuming most people here have LWAMI. Will my missions be playable in LWAMI if I made them without LWAMI? I want to get this right before I send them over to the Subguru.

04-18-06, 09:37 PM	#2
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	They will be playable but will platforms perform as you had intended is more the question. Why not run the Stock mission in LwAmi and test if unit sensor and weapon performance gives you what you want to achieve. Then adjust ranges, platform separation etc. But it is unlikely that you will achieve mutual playability of Stock and LwAmi from one mission. Better to modify the Stocks into extra LwAmi specific missions. __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

04-18-06, 11:59 PM	#4
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	I can think of four ways that the balance might change going from stock to LW/Ami 1. AEGIS ships are effective counterunits to missile attack 2. SS-N-27 ASM more effective (could be a problem if there are no AEGIS ships to counterbalance) 3. AI air platforms are much more effective in prosecuting contacts 4. AI surface platforms will use ASROCs effectively (especially Udaloys) and are a serious threat to subs. There may be a few others, but for the most part I don't think there's much of a problem using the same missions. Just keep in mind that if you don't have the mod, the things that the mod makes work, won't work! __________________

04-19-06, 03:17 AM	#5
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	One small grouse - we are constantly asked to design 'for LwAmi.' What happens is generaly speaking the MP scenario disappears down a Black Hole of complete silence and lack of reaction. Criticism and suggestions are FEEDBACK. Personaly I would like to have the opportunity, if required, to make adjustments to improve the gaming experience. How else can progress be made ? __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

04-19-06, 08:52 AM	#6
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	The requests to design for LW/Ami originated back in the days of 1.01, when detection ranges were significantly different between the stock and modded versions. That DID make a huge difference, so it was important to keep that in mind when designing missions. I think a lot of people hear about missions designed for LW/Ami and think that it's still a big issue today, and a good majority of the requests to design for it are based on this out-of-date perspective. So, unless it's clear that there is a specific, relevant difference that the requester would like to see put to good use in a new mission (say for example, AI helo prosecution), I wouldn't sweat it too much. In a sense, it's actually stock DW that you may have to design missions specifically for, since the main difference between stock and LW/Ami is that in LW/Ami, platforms and weapons work the way they're supposed to. In stock, you may have to compensate for things not doing their jobs. __________________

04-18-06, 10:22 PM	#3
Sea Demon Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,552 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	OK. Thanks for your advice, Bellman. I'll do that. The ranges that the platforms are deployed may need changing depending on sonar conditions. Looks like I may have another week of testing with LWAMI to see if it these 2 missions are playable. I'll be releasing these two missions next week. Thanks again.

04-19-06, 08:58 AM	#7
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	Good point ML. You are right to poiint out that the actuality with LwAmi no longer conforms to our expectations from past performance. __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

04-20-06, 01:04 AM	#8
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	However SD posed his question from the standpoint of a designer with finished Stock product. Some stock AIs may be seen to perform more aggressively in LwAmi. Is this now appropriate to what was intended ? Will tests in LwAmi reveal 'some' other significant weapons and sonar performance characteristics, inappropriate in this instance ? The issue can be one of tuning/ and tweaking, and balancing in some cases making small adjustments at the margins. Finessing ? __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

04-29-06, 07:41 PM	#9
Sea Demon Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,552 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	You're totally correct Bellman. I find that these two missions I made do need some additional tweaking to make them playable for LWAMI. Otherwise they take too long for anything to happen. I'll have to adjust some distances for detection distances to work correctly. Therefore I'll need an additional couple of days before I release these two missions. BTW, I'm doing this because I believe most users are now playing DW with the LWAMI mod installed. Sea Demon

05-14-06, 02:39 AM	#11
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Not to be harsh (and this has nothing to do with the mod, very good players also play exclusively stock), but the gap between the average player and the good player is VERY SIGNIFICANT in DW. My suggestion is to only play good players (they aren't hard to find), or the DW experience in MP will not be very satisfying, and you won't get any better. __________________ LW

05-15-06, 05:09 PM	#12
FERdeBOER XO Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 431 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 1	Question: is the "new" detection range on LWAMI mod visible on the editor? I asked this because if yes, it will be far easier to make the changes needed for the adaption from the editor than testing again everything. __________________ Hay dos tipos de buques: los submarinos... y los blancos. There are two types of ships: the subs... and the targets.