SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - The AK-47. How much does it owe to German Design? A LOT!

Stealhead · 06-20-11, 12:32 PM

[/QUOTE]Not true. The concept of what is now the assault rifle was developed even before World War I, and as far as I know the Germans did not have such designs until much later. The first weapon introduced into service that fit is the Russian Fedorov Avtomat in 1915, a weapon which had a relatively low power rifle cartridge (6.5x50mm Arisaka, though Fedorov's original design included a specially designed cartridge) and included such features as a detachable magazine and selective fire.[/QUOTE]

Got to agree with you here there where Russian gun designers working on the assault rifle concept before anyone else.Also the Germans and the Soviets both began studies of combat actions as early as late 1941 and they both came to the same conclusions by and large one of them being the development of an intermediate powered round and the need for a weapon that would fire them and take the best features of the sub machine gun and the rifle that idea became the modern assault rifle.The Soviets where developing assault rifle concepts during the war they just never came to fruition until later.

The AK-47 and the STG 44 happen to look very similar from an external glance and many people like to assume that the AK-47 is largely a copy of the 44 when in all reality it truly only uses some of the concepts.Also many features on the STG 44 where not new either there where several weapons already employing curved magazines before the STG the Bren gun is an excellent example but not the only one.

Also in the end most firearms borrow concepts from previous designs but the STG 44~AK-47 being a major copy is not true and there are other weapons where this is very much the case with the AK-47 it is not.

I have never understood why where something is Russian designed and has concepts from other designs(something everyone does) people want to point out how much of a copy it is.But you dont see this so much if the design comes from some place other than Russia but is obviously a copy or uses design concepts from others.

Did you know that the Panther was largely inspired by the T-34? In fact one German firms entry to the competition that the Panther won was a more or less exact copy of the T-34.Or that the Germans copied largely the SVT-40 ending in the G43? I am not Russian by the way but I am a fan of being fair and seeing things for what they are.

There is a book called "The Gun" about the AK-47 in which the author takes an unbiased view of the AK-47 and Kalashnikov.The author explains much about the design process of the AK but also explains how much of it is mythology that was common in USSR times and still lingers some bit with the AK-47.No doubt that they studied STG 44s while designing the AK-47 did they use concepts from it yes did they pound for pound copy it no.

Here are two weapons that are also very similar from an external view and obviously use concepts found on most assault rifles/firearms they both are quite different internally they perform the same basic function but that is truly not copying.IF one says this then all assault rifles are copies.

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/image...as33/vz58p.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/image...s01/ak47_3.jpg

I'd say that the FG42 was one of the first examples of what a poorly designed assault rifle is(mainly because it was too expensive to mass produce and fired full powered rounds and that magazine placement

) and the STG 44 is an example of what a well designed AR is.

The FG42 has a "twin" as well the M1941 Johnson machine gun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1941_Johnson_machine_gun look how similar to the FG42 but it came out a bit eralier a great of example of guns using the same concepts as others but not truly being copies.

06-20-11, 12:32 PM	#5
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	[/QUOTE]Not true. The concept of what is now the assault rifle was developed even before World War I, and as far as I know the Germans did not have such designs until much later. The first weapon introduced into service that fit is the Russian Fedorov Avtomat in 1915, a weapon which had a relatively low power rifle cartridge (6.5x50mm Arisaka, though Fedorov's original design included a specially designed cartridge) and included such features as a detachable magazine and selective fire.[/QUOTE] Got to agree with you here there where Russian gun designers working on the assault rifle concept before anyone else.Also the Germans and the Soviets both began studies of combat actions as early as late 1941 and they both came to the same conclusions by and large one of them being the development of an intermediate powered round and the need for a weapon that would fire them and take the best features of the sub machine gun and the rifle that idea became the modern assault rifle.The Soviets where developing assault rifle concepts during the war they just never came to fruition until later. The AK-47 and the STG 44 happen to look very similar from an external glance and many people like to assume that the AK-47 is largely a copy of the 44 when in all reality it truly only uses some of the concepts.Also many features on the STG 44 where not new either there where several weapons already employing curved magazines before the STG the Bren gun is an excellent example but not the only one. Also in the end most firearms borrow concepts from previous designs but the STG 44~AK-47 being a major copy is not true and there are other weapons where this is very much the case with the AK-47 it is not. I have never understood why where something is Russian designed and has concepts from other designs(something everyone does) people want to point out how much of a copy it is.But you dont see this so much if the design comes from some place other than Russia but is obviously a copy or uses design concepts from others. Did you know that the Panther was largely inspired by the T-34? In fact one German firms entry to the competition that the Panther won was a more or less exact copy of the T-34.Or that the Germans copied largely the SVT-40 ending in the G43? I am not Russian by the way but I am a fan of being fair and seeing things for what they are. There is a book called "The Gun" about the AK-47 in which the author takes an unbiased view of the AK-47 and Kalashnikov.The author explains much about the design process of the AK but also explains how much of it is mythology that was common in USSR times and still lingers some bit with the AK-47.No doubt that they studied STG 44s while designing the AK-47 did they use concepts from it yes did they pound for pound copy it no. Here are two weapons that are also very similar from an external view and obviously use concepts found on most assault rifles/firearms they both are quite different internally they perform the same basic function but that is truly not copying.IF one says this then all assault rifles are copies. http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/image...as33/vz58p.jpg http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/image...s01/ak47_3.jpg I'd say that the FG42 was one of the first examples of what a poorly designed assault rifle is(mainly because it was too expensive to mass produce and fired full powered rounds and that magazine placement) and the STG 44 is an example of what a well designed AR is. The FG42 has a "twin" as well the M1941 Johnson machine gun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1941_Johnson_machine_gun look how similar to the FG42 but it came out a bit eralier a great of example of guns using the same concepts as others but not truly being copies. Last edited by Stealhead; 06-20-11 at 12:47 PM.