[Abraham]

(In the Holocaust thread)

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

... The Totenkopf, these were the murderers, comprised of both SS and Waffen SS soldiers. They were marked by a skull and crossbone on their collar. These are the soldiers that rotated between concentration camps and the front lines (because, believe it or not, the things the did at those camps caused more trauma to their psyche then the front did.) These men were comprised of psychopaths and murderers. For my sake, please do not discredit the entirity of the SS, which was comprised of some of the most brilliant commanders to ever walk this earth. Those who did what they did in the camps were a disgraces to the Fatherland, however the SS that served in the field of battle were feared by the Allies - generally the mere site of an SS unit would cause soldiers to loose their bowels. Never before or after in the modern world has an military force through it's prowess, cunning, and ruthlessness been both so deeply respected and widely feared.

(cursivation by Abraham) :hmm:
Aren't you glorifying the Waffen-SS a little bit far too much? The Waffen-SS committed many war atrocities and sa such discredited themselves. And although they did not do the butchers job of the SS Einsatzgruppen (SS Action Groups) nor guarded the concentration and extermination camps, there can be little doubt that they would have done it without a shrug had Himmler ordered them so.
After all, the SS-Totenkopf Standarten were incorporated in a Waffen-SS division without a problem. Their 'honor' was 'loyalty', without any moral inhibitions, to a whicked political system. So they served a whicked system, not their fatherland.
As for the supremacy of the Waffen-SS, Allied special forces, such as the airborne divisions, were a match for comparable SS units. At Arnhem both the SS and the British 1st Airborne Div. fought a bitter fight that only ended when after 9 days the Airbornes ran completely out of supplies. SS troops - with superior equipment - were often stopped in the Ardennes by 'ordinary' US Combat Commands.
And can you name "some of the most brilliant commanders to ever walk this earth"? Army level, Corps level, even Division level SS Generals that really stand out in military history? I don't know any...

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

As for Donitz, he was no Nazi, nor was the majority of the SS, Wermacht, Luftwaffe, or Kriegsmarine.

Not so. The SS was part of the Nazi party structure and being SS implied being Nazi. The Waffen-SS even got Nazi indoctrination lessons.

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

You must understand at the time the German attitude and fierce nationalistic pride of the German people of the time. Also, as a side note - to anyone that's read Mein Kampf and looked into the history of the period, most politician's and lawer's were Jewish at this point, also after WWI the Jews who were uninvolved and were now taking over business from bankrupt Germany. Before Hitler it took nearly 3,000,000 marks to equal one US dollar. Before 1942 the Reichmark was worth abit more than the US dollar. He took a broken nation and gave her hope. Unfortunately he used the Jews as a scapegoat to do it.

Where have I read this argumentation before...?

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

Before I'm called a Nazi sympathizer, I would like to point out that Hitler and his Nazi's were an embarassment and a blemish on the honor of the Fatherland's finest men.

I do sincerely hope that you don't mean to say here that Hitler and his Nazi's were a blemish on the honor of the Waffen-SS...

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

The misguided point of this post: The Holocaust and what caused it is far deeper than one can get by reading a book soley about the Holocaust. You must look at the entire picture and perhaps gain a sad understanding for those who were helpless to stop it and thus turned a blind eye.

Any good book about the Holocaust that I have read pays ample attention to the socio-political picture in Germany and the steady rise on virulent anti-Semitism, especially in right-wing, conservative political circles, from the late 19th century to the start of World War II.

Originally Posted by Dead Mans Hand

If you seriously wish to know of the some of the darkest horrors of the camps, research Doctor Mengele and other Nazi "medical" experiments. Anyone - and I do mean anyone - that can support Nazi's after that deserves to be shot.

Dr. Mengele - an SS doctor - was just an exponent of the Nazi system. While not all Nazi's were like Dr. Mengele, he certainly fitted the picture of a true SS Nazi; surprisingly few of those who worked with him seem to have protested.