[Sailor Steve]

Wednesday, April 23, 1919

PARIS PEACE CONFERENCE

President Wilson’s House, Place des Etats-Unis, Paris 11:00

Meeting of the Council of Four (Italy not in attendance)


1. Mr Lloyd George produces a communication he has received from S Orlando giving the latest Italian proposal.

He feels this offers no basis for negotiation. He suggests it might be desirable to ask the Italian delegates whether they intend to meet the Germans when they come to Versailles.

M Clemenceau thinks it iss a good idea.

President Wilson suggests that when we come to deal with Austria, if the Italians are standing out of the Conference the boundaries should be settled as fairly as though Italy were in. Italy should be treated on absolutely fair lines and shown that their interests were taken care of.

Mr Lloyd George suggests that if Italy was not present in the negotiations with Germany it would be difficult for the Allied and Associated Powers to put forward claims on their behalf for reparation, for example.

President Wilson refers to a report which he has received from a Mr Pupin, a scientist of Yugoslav nationality, who was working in Columbia University. The memorandum is by no means of a menacing character, but it does convey the impression that the result of a peace unsatisfactory to the Yugoslavs would be to drive them into the hands of the Bolshevists. They would unite with the rest of the Slav peoples. One interesting point in M. Pupin’s memorandum was a reference to an Italian Socialist meeting which had been held at Rome at which Italian claims, as recognized by the Socialists, had been outlined. No mention was made of Dalmatia, Fiume, Gorizia, or of Carinthia.

After some further discussion on this subject, which is taken up after other subjects have been discussed, President Wilson says that it is his intention to publish his memorandum on the Italian question this evening.

Mr Lloyd George reads a memorandum which Mr Balfour had prepared at his request and which presented the point of view of France and Great Britain. In the course of the reading of Mr. Balfour’s memorandum the following corrections are suggested:

1) An alteration in certain phrases which convey the impression that Fiume was not mentioned in the Treaty of London. It is pointed out that Fiume was mentioned in a note to Article 5.

2) Fiume, it is pointed out, is not on the Dalmatian but on the Croatian coast.

3) The addition, after a sentence in which it is mentioned that Fiume is one town and not two, of the following words “and that is Slav.”

4) That it would be better to omit a passage on the last page referring to the forthcoming withdrawal of Italy from the Conference. It was pointed out that although Italy had withdrawn from these conversations they had not formally withdrawn from the Preliminary Peace Conference. It was suggested it would be better to prepare the memorandum to deter Italy from doing so rather than to suggest that it was a probable contingency.

Mr Lloyd George and M Clemenceau agree on the following:

1) That the letter should be revised on the above lines.

2) That a copy should be sent to M Clemenceau for him to have translated and examined.

No decision was taken as to when the letter should be forwarded to the Italian representatives.

There is some discussion as to the difficult position which would arise if Italy persists in her present attitude. It was pointed out that if Italy should insist on holding on to Fiume, this would be itself a breach of the Treaty which definitely allotted Fiume to Croatia. If, on the other hand, Italy should abandon her position in Fiume, the situation would be very difficult, because then France and Great Britain would be bound by their Treaty to sign a Treaty with Austria which President Wilson did not feel himself in a position to sign, since Italy could insist on the portion of Dalmatia comprised in the Treaty being transferred to her sovereignty. It is generally agreed that anything which caused a difference between Great Britain and France on the one hand, and the United States of America on the other, would be most deplorable, since the future peace of the world depends so much on these three nations standing together. The danger of uniting the whole of the Slavs in a possible Bolshevist regime was also commented on.

Attention is also drawn to the fact that Italy had, on the 26th April 1915, adhered to the Pact of London of the 5th September 1914, thereby engaging herself mutually with Great Britain, France, and Russia, not to conclude a separate peace in the course of the War, and that when there was a question of discussing the terms of peace none of the Allied Powers should propose conditions of peace without previous agreement with each of the other Allies.


2. Mr Lloyd George says that he has just seen Captain Gibson, an officer who had returned from Berlin and who had given us consistently very valuable information. Captain Gibson said that the best of the German Delegates was named Melchior, who desired peace. Melchior was very much in with the industrialists, who desired peace. Rantzau, whom he did not think very much of, was, he believed, opposed to peace.

M Clemenceau doubted if the present German Government could make peace.


3. Mr Lloyd George says that Captain Gibson had explained that the most important factor inducing the Germans to sign peace was their desire to restart their national life. This brings him to the question of a scheme for restarting Europe. No trade is at present moving anywhere in Europe. In Belgium there are many unemployed, and the same is true of other countries and particularly of Germany. Mr Keynes had prepared a scheme, the broad outline of which was that the first thousand million pounds which Germany had to pay should be taken and guaranteed by all the Powers. Cash should be raised on it in order to enable all countries, including Germany, to get raw material and re-start their industries. Unless something of the kind was done, Melchior would not be able to make peace.

President Wilson says he has given Captain Gibson’s paper to Mr Hoover, who has some 40 agents travelling about in Europe in connection with relief work. Mr Hoover had said that the paper was extraordinarily correct, but he thought nothing could be done unless the people could get food and start their industrial life. At present, they were in a hopeless position. The ordinary life could not grow on the present soil and Bolshevism was the only system it could. Hence, he thought that the blockade ought to be raised.

Mr Lloyd George points out that there was the same paralysis in countries that had no blockade.

M Clemenceau thinks it would be a great mistake to raise it.

President Wilson points out that it could be reimposed.

M Clemenceau said that the moment was bad for raising the blockade. The Germans are about to arrive for the purpose of signing peace and we must not appear to be weakening.


4. M Clemenceau reads information which shows that the German Delegation contemplates bringing journalists to Versailles. He asks whether the French ought to allow them to come to Versailles. His own view is strongly opposed, and he would like authority not to admit them. His information is more and more in the direction that Rantzau is coming to cause a breakdown in the negotiations.

Mr Lloyd George points out that Melchior is not coming with this object.


5. President Wilson considers that, in view of Melchior’s presence, the attitude of the Germans will depend largely upon the economic terms. If the Germans find that chains are to be imposed on them, they will not sign, but if a fair basis is offered, they would. He has talked to the United States experts on the subject and the attitude they took was that the Allied and Associated Powers should only require that there should be no discrimination by Germany against any particular belligerent. That is to say, all should have the most favored nation terms.

6. M Clemenceau reads a telegram from the Chief of the Military Mission at Warsaw to Marshal Foch, reporting that by midnight of the 20th, 12 trains had passed through Warsaw conveying a portion of General Haller’s Army. He reported a number of incidents where the Germans had molested the trains and broken open wagons and taken foodstuffs, such as biscuits, preserved meat and sacks of oats and clothing. These incidents had mainly taken place at Glogau.

Mr Lloyd George says he was surprised that the troops had got through with so little trouble. He thought the attention of Marshal Foch ought to be called to the matter and that he should be directed to make representations.

President Wilson agrees.

(It is agreed that M Clemenceau should instruct Marshal Foch to call the attention of the Germans to the molestation of trains conveying General Haller’s Army to Poland and should insist on their carrying out their engagements.)

7. President Wilson says he has received an appeal from Persia, who had sent a Delegation to the Peace Conference, and complained that not only had she not been admitted or heard at the Peace Conference but that no reply had even been made to communications addressed to the Bureau of the Conference.

Mr Lloyd George says that he was informed by Sir Maurice Hankey that Mr Balfour was opposed to the admission of Persia to the Conference, though he does not know the reasons. He asks that the matter might be postponed until he had consulted Mr Balfour.


8. President Wilson says the time has come for holding a Plenary Conference. Lord Robert Cecil had written to him about the desirability of discussing the League of Nations Covenant there. He proposes that the Covenant should be laid before the Plenary Conference without any further speech making, although he would make a statement to the effect that the last revision which had been made to consider such criticisms as had been offered only clarified certain points. After this, anyone who wanted to discuss the question could do so. There would probably be only a few speeches. There were also several other reports which had been called for by the Plenary Conference which should be laid before them.

Mr Lloyd George agrees that there must be a meeting.

M Clemenceau also agrees.

(After some further discussion, it is decided:

1) That a plenary meeting of the Preliminary Peace Conference should be held on Monday, April 28th, when the following reports should be considered:
The League of Nations Covenant
The Labour Clauses
Responsibility and Breaches of the laws of War.

2) That the clauses being drafted by the Drafting Committee to give effect to the conclusion of the Supreme Council on the subject of the Responsibility and Breaches of the laws of war should be circulated for the meeting.

3) That a second plenary meeting of the Conference should be held on the day preceding the night on which the Germans were due to arrive at Versailles. The object of this meeting would be to communicate the contents of the Peace Treaty.)

9. The question of publicity is discussed several times during this meeting.

M Clemenceau strongly urges that the Treaty should be published when it is communicated to the Germans. It would not be fair to our own people to let the Germans see the Treaty and to conceal it from them. His own position would be an impossible one if the Treaty were not published. It is absolutely certain that the Germans will publish it, particularly if they wish to make mischief for us and it would make a very bad impression in the countries of the Allied and Associated Powers if the public first learnt of the terms of the Treaty of Peace from the German wireless.

Mr Lloyd George suggests that the Germans might not want to publish the Treaty and that negotiations would be easier for all concerned without publicity.

Both Mr Lloyd George and President Wilson lay the utmost stress on the preparation of a good summary for publication.

Mr Lloyd George points out that the reception of the Peace Treaty would depend largely on the first impression made.

M Clemenceau said he is preparing a summary for communicating to the Preliminary Meeting and he thought this might also serve for the Press. He will undertake to communicate it to and discuss it with his colleagues.

Mr Lloyd George suggests that a notice ought to be issued to the Press of the Allied and Associated Powers to the effect that the moment for publication would be after the communication of the Treaty to the Germans and that premature publicity might have very serious effects.

(M Clemenceau undertakes to draft a preface notice on the subject.)


Appendix I Italian Proposals

I The line of the Alps (Brenner) to the sea, East of Volosca.

II Fiume under the sovereignty of Italy.

Italy will establish in the port of Fiume free zones in accordance with the terms of articles 8, 9 and 10 of the Peace clauses drawn up by the Commission of Ports, Waterways, and Railways and will extend to Fiume those facilitations which may be arranged for later on in a general convention with reference to free ports.

III Italy will have all the islands mentioned in the Pact of London except Pago.

IV Zara and Sebenico will be placed under the League of Nations with Italy as Mandatory Power.