SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post - Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

Hairog · 02-07-09, 12:48 PM

As many of you know there are many armored units in Battleground Europe. They include...

Tiger PZVI
PZIVD
T38
PZII
Stug B
Stug G
232
PZIVG
PZIIF
PZIIIH
Vickers
Damiler
A13
Crusader Mark II
Crusader Mark III
Churchill Mark III
Churchill Mark VII
Matilda
Panard 178
H39
R35
M3A3 Stuart
S35
M4A3 Sherman
M4A4 Sherman 76mm
M10 Wolverine
B1 bis
Laffy W15 TCC self propelled ATG
As well as many other anti tank guns that are present and want to ruin your day.

And they are all playable and against real live oppenents. No AI here.

Here is a little post by a Doc (one of the creators of BGE) that caught my attention. After a long stalemated period of intense combat, the Allied Commander either made a mistake or the Axis had a brilliant strategic nirvana as there was a massive breakout that was fun for all.

"Written by DOC Monday, 02 February 2009 00:00 What a Friday night it was in game. I spotted a post in the forums that I thought would shed some light on another one of the reasons we think the game is so great. In light of last nights events it seemed a good place to draw out these kinds of things for you and say congrats Axis! for a fun night.

From the forums, player Kilemal said:

The game's design relies on mistakes to create variability.

Bingo!

Just like real war, there are times of total stagnation, complete attrition slugfests down to the last man, other times of massive breakouts where the line is either in dire risk of collapse or actually does collapse. Times of fast movement where little battle is actually contested, and massive areas are occupied (captured) and other times where the breakout is chopped off like a bulging hernia.

After 2 straight months of withering heart felt conflict by all players of the game, we have seen everything. From Blitzkrieg to Stalingrad, it has all shown it's hand in this historic campaign number 50.

Never allow yourself the luxury of the self fulfilling prophecy that any mistake is a sign of the game being broken. Unlike most "conflict" games (I don't call them war games because I haven't seen any other game actually model the effects, consequences and management of WAR like this one, this is almost a war creator game not a war playing game) ... unlike those other games in this one you have the greatest collection of possible or potential WAR related elements and aspects you'll find in a single game. A mistake determining success or failure in a wargame that hopes to simulate actual war to any degree is not a sign that it is broken, it is a sign that it is working better than any war game where mistakes mean nothing, or don't exist in the first place.

MISTAKES are one of the biggest and most deciding factors in real war you could study. They decided more individual battles and campaigns than almost anything else. That mistakes at a command level can occur in this game is one of the reasons it is the only MMPOPvP WAR game out there. There are other games that are PvP or "war related" but none are as close to being as much WAR as this one is.

I salute all players who choose to take part in this grand wargame experience (if not experiment and it is largely an experimental project) ... we have happy players, bitter players, smart players and not so smart players. Skilled ones and n00bs, hoping to be skilled one day. We have strategic players and tactical players, ground grunts with the hard won experience to win against almost any odds, and cannon fodder who still have a long way to go. Aces and dweebs alike take to the skies. Players who run supply and resupply their comrades in the field. Others who fix or take down bridges to help shape the coming or ongoing attack or defense.
We have stalemates and breakouts. Little burps and massive coronaries. Brilliant leadership and huge mistakes. Face to muzzle close combat and mile away finger of god despatching of the enemy.

We have players who suffer a crisis of confidence and a week later, heck just a day later, they are racing through the lines and redrawing the map of conflict like they are the kings of the world.

We have towns that are too easy to take, and cities that seem impossible to take, and then along comes a town that was too easy to take yesterday and today it's an 8 hour meatgrinder. The city that last month was "impossible to take" falls captured and suddenly perceptions are shattered like glass.

Still some hold strong against all visible evidence.

In short, we have it all. You have it all. Good, bad, happy, sad, fast, slow, easy, hard, right, wrong, brilliant and insane ... the game has everything."

From what I can gather they are about to offer the game in China. This should bring in some much needed revenue and hopefully some more programers to polish this gem.

02-07-09, 12:48 PM	#1
Hairog Nub Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 4 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? As many of you know there are many armored units in Battleground Europe. They include... Tiger PZVI PZIVD T38 PZII Stug B Stug G 232 PZIVG PZIIF PZIIIH Vickers Damiler A13 Crusader Mark II Crusader Mark III Churchill Mark III Churchill Mark VII Matilda Panard 178 H39 R35 M3A3 Stuart S35 M4A3 Sherman M4A4 Sherman 76mm M10 Wolverine B1 bis Laffy W15 TCC self propelled ATG As well as many other anti tank guns that are present and want to ruin your day. And they are all playable and against real live oppenents. No AI here. Here is a little post by a Doc (one of the creators of BGE) that caught my attention. After a long stalemated period of intense combat, the Allied Commander either made a mistake or the Axis had a brilliant strategic nirvana as there was a massive breakout that was fun for all. "Written by DOC Monday, 02 February 2009 00:00 What a Friday night it was in game. I spotted a post in the forums that I thought would shed some light on another one of the reasons we think the game is so great. In light of last nights events it seemed a good place to draw out these kinds of things for you and say congrats Axis! for a fun night. From the forums, player Kilemal said: The game's design relies on mistakes to create variability. Bingo! Just like real war, there are times of total stagnation, complete attrition slugfests down to the last man, other times of massive breakouts where the line is either in dire risk of collapse or actually does collapse. Times of fast movement where little battle is actually contested, and massive areas are occupied (captured) and other times where the breakout is chopped off like a bulging hernia. After 2 straight months of withering heart felt conflict by all players of the game, we have seen everything. From Blitzkrieg to Stalingrad, it has all shown it's hand in this historic campaign number 50. Never allow yourself the luxury of the self fulfilling prophecy that any mistake is a sign of the game being broken. Unlike most "conflict" games (I don't call them war games because I haven't seen any other game actually model the effects, consequences and management of WAR like this one, this is almost a war creator game not a war playing game) ... unlike those other games in this one you have the greatest collection of possible or potential WAR related elements and aspects you'll find in a single game. A mistake determining success or failure in a wargame that hopes to simulate actual war to any degree is not a sign that it is broken, it is a sign that it is working better than any war game where mistakes mean nothing, or don't exist in the first place. MISTAKES are one of the biggest and most deciding factors in real war you could study. They decided more individual battles and campaigns than almost anything else. That mistakes at a command level can occur in this game is one of the reasons it is the only MMPOPvP WAR game out there. There are other games that are PvP or "war related" but none are as close to being as much WAR as this one is. I salute all players who choose to take part in this grand wargame experience (if not experiment and it is largely an experimental project) ... we have happy players, bitter players, smart players and not so smart players. Skilled ones and n00bs, hoping to be skilled one day. We have strategic players and tactical players, ground grunts with the hard won experience to win against almost any odds, and cannon fodder who still have a long way to go. Aces and dweebs alike take to the skies. Players who run supply and resupply their comrades in the field. Others who fix or take down bridges to help shape the coming or ongoing attack or defense. We have stalemates and breakouts. Little burps and massive coronaries. Brilliant leadership and huge mistakes. Face to muzzle close combat and mile away finger of god despatching of the enemy. We have players who suffer a crisis of confidence and a week later, heck just a day later, they are racing through the lines and redrawing the map of conflict like they are the kings of the world. We have towns that are too easy to take, and cities that seem impossible to take, and then along comes a town that was too easy to take yesterday and today it's an 8 hour meatgrinder. The city that last month was "impossible to take" falls captured and suddenly perceptions are shattered like glass. Still some hold strong against all visible evidence. In short, we have it all. You have it all. Good, bad, happy, sad, fast, slow, easy, hard, right, wrong, brilliant and insane ... the game has everything." From what I can gather they are about to offer the game in China. This should bring in some much needed revenue and hopefully some more programers to polish this gem.