SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - View Single Post

Skybird · 11-05-06, 05:04 PM

Hi. A friend told me you have this discussion here - again.

Tell you a story.

1. I bought DW second hand, half a year after release. The original customer, a friend's brother, did not like it, too many bugs that made subs far more buggy than in SC, he said.

2. While I owned it next, 1.03 was released, so I tried that one as well. Subs turned from bad to worse - I consider them to be unplayable. Subs are what is the major attraction of such a sim. Not the frigate, not the Orion, not the Helo - it's about the subs, and the subs for the most. Mess up the subs, and you lose customers. That simple.

3. I sold DW too, angered, and disappointed that they even topped the negative record in support I remembered from SC. I only kept the manual, which is top class. I think of keeping it as a strange way of compensation.

4. The customer complained to me some time later that I sold him a buggy product with unplayable sub, even with the latest patch. :hmm:

5. When DW was released, I wrote with constructive intention in a thread that Sonalysts should be aware that they have raised a well-known reputation of being bad supporters when it comes to patches, and that many people are interested in the matter of DW, but are cautious because of the bad and extremely slow support. SC took them over a year. FC and 688i was not much faster. I recommended that if there are things to patch, they would be well-advised to get these things, especially serious things, fixed within reasonable time-frame of let's say two patches, 2-3 months for each, before the initial spike in interest that follows a new release has faded out again.

THEY AGAIN FAILED IN THAT.

6. So, back then I talked to friends and colleagues and advertised the sim and described what it is. INTEREST WAS THERE, and not too little. The manual did not drive people away, but attracted them. THE BROKEN STATUS OF THE SIM IS WHAT KEPT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE AWAY. Even some long-year-board members here, that had displayed great enthusiasm during the times of SC, and were actively engaged in supporting it, ran out of patience and turned their backs on DW, and the board. Such a reputation is lethal if the sim in question already is a niche product. A niche product must pass the tests with flying colours in order to leave the niche, or even just survive in it's niche. If it does not pass the tests, it's fate is sealed. It gets stuck in it's hole and never will leave it again after the first attempt. That's how the market functions today. There is too much other tasty fish out in the sea.

7. A sub sim is not a flight sim. You cannot compare it's popularity to let's say F4. F4 was in a terrible status when it was released - but it also was a genre that simply outclasses the attraction of subsims, and it did not take them years to come up with patches and displays of efforts and willingness to improve it. That basic attraction was enough to get the patching and modding show running - for years. This level of customer's tolerance should not be expected with regard to subsims. You are a fine and hardcore community here. but that does not change the fact that you are few, and that your interest is not representative for the interest of the vast majority of players and simmers. Do not conclude on othery by your own example.

What I personally also found a bit too rich was a posting by a representative of Sonalysts, long time ago, over a year, complaining that there was too little support and enthusiasm on the board, and concluding that that poor support by the community maybe hampers sales numbers. Why should anyone buy the sim, when he comes to this place and sees the lacking community effort here?, it was indirectly complained. the status of the product and the reputation of Sonalysts of needing millenias to get things repaired of course had nothing to do with it. Support is not patching, but forum presence - this seemed to have been the implicit conclusion. Well, they were present in the forum, and very much so, I admit that. But with comments in a forum you can't reapir broken things. It's the patching that counts - not sweet words. - The man starting the thread later tried to rudder back a bit. But the damage already was done. In the following weeks several names that I knew since the times of SC said farewell to DW.

My conclusion: Sonalyst torpedoed themselves with this. They sunk their own boat, by bad seamanship. The idea was good, the execution (bugs, graphics) was mediocre, the support was lousy. In a short while it will be two years since release - and manoeuvring the subs still is a bad joke, if 1.03 is still the status. Truth is - after two years, not many people outside your hardcore community have any interest left in 1.04 that might be released, or might be released in a year, or never - who knows.

Two years for patching showstopping bugs? And complaining about people not buying it enough, then?

To them the low sales-numbers may be a phenomenon they do not understand. To me it is a logical consequence.

Got burned twice now. Will never get burned by Sonalyst again.

Just a short hop-in of mine, so don't try to debate with me.

Bye,
Skybird

11-05-06, 05:04 PM	#16
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,784 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Hi. A friend told me you have this discussion here - again. Tell you a story. 1. I bought DW second hand, half a year after release. The original customer, a friend's brother, did not like it, too many bugs that made subs far more buggy than in SC, he said. 2. While I owned it next, 1.03 was released, so I tried that one as well. Subs turned from bad to worse - I consider them to be unplayable. Subs are what is the major attraction of such a sim. Not the frigate, not the Orion, not the Helo - it's about the subs, and the subs for the most. Mess up the subs, and you lose customers. That simple. 3. I sold DW too, angered, and disappointed that they even topped the negative record in support I remembered from SC. I only kept the manual, which is top class. I think of keeping it as a strange way of compensation. 4. The customer complained to me some time later that I sold him a buggy product with unplayable sub, even with the latest patch. :hmm: 5. When DW was released, I wrote with constructive intention in a thread that Sonalysts should be aware that they have raised a well-known reputation of being bad supporters when it comes to patches, and that many people are interested in the matter of DW, but are cautious because of the bad and extremely slow support. SC took them over a year. FC and 688i was not much faster. I recommended that if there are things to patch, they would be well-advised to get these things, especially serious things, fixed within reasonable time-frame of let's say two patches, 2-3 months for each, before the initial spike in interest that follows a new release has faded out again. THEY AGAIN FAILED IN THAT. 6. So, back then I talked to friends and colleagues and advertised the sim and described what it is. INTEREST WAS THERE, and not too little. The manual did not drive people away, but attracted them. THE BROKEN STATUS OF THE SIM IS WHAT KEPT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE AWAY. Even some long-year-board members here, that had displayed great enthusiasm during the times of SC, and were actively engaged in supporting it, ran out of patience and turned their backs on DW, and the board. Such a reputation is lethal if the sim in question already is a niche product. A niche product must pass the tests with flying colours in order to leave the niche, or even just survive in it's niche. If it does not pass the tests, it's fate is sealed. It gets stuck in it's hole and never will leave it again after the first attempt. That's how the market functions today. There is too much other tasty fish out in the sea. 7. A sub sim is not a flight sim. You cannot compare it's popularity to let's say F4. F4 was in a terrible status when it was released - but it also was a genre that simply outclasses the attraction of subsims, and it did not take them years to come up with patches and displays of efforts and willingness to improve it. That basic attraction was enough to get the patching and modding show running - for years. This level of customer's tolerance should not be expected with regard to subsims. You are a fine and hardcore community here. but that does not change the fact that you are few, and that your interest is not representative for the interest of the vast majority of players and simmers. Do not conclude on othery by your own example. What I personally also found a bit too rich was a posting by a representative of Sonalysts, long time ago, over a year, complaining that there was too little support and enthusiasm on the board, and concluding that that poor support by the community maybe hampers sales numbers. Why should anyone buy the sim, when he comes to this place and sees the lacking community effort here?, it was indirectly complained. the status of the product and the reputation of Sonalysts of needing millenias to get things repaired of course had nothing to do with it. Support is not patching, but forum presence - this seemed to have been the implicit conclusion. Well, they were present in the forum, and very much so, I admit that. But with comments in a forum you can't reapir broken things. It's the patching that counts - not sweet words. - The man starting the thread later tried to rudder back a bit. But the damage already was done. In the following weeks several names that I knew since the times of SC said farewell to DW. My conclusion: Sonalyst torpedoed themselves with this. They sunk their own boat, by bad seamanship. The idea was good, the execution (bugs, graphics) was mediocre, the support was lousy. In a short while it will be two years since release - and manoeuvring the subs still is a bad joke, if 1.03 is still the status. Truth is - after two years, not many people outside your hardcore community have any interest left in 1.04 that might be released, or might be released in a year, or never - who knows. Two years for patching showstopping bugs? And complaining about people not buying it enough, then? To them the low sales-numbers may be a phenomenon they do not understand. To me it is a logical consequence. Got burned twice now. Will never get burned by Sonalyst again. Just a short hop-in of mine, so don't try to debate with me. Bye, Skybird __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.