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-   -   Crash into non-activated torpedoes (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=235506)

MR_AUS 11-15-2017 04:47 PM

Crash into non-activated torpedoes
 
Hi all,
Really enjoying this game, gets better every time I play.

Watching The Hunt For Red October for the millionth time last night and was fascinated about the time they crash into an oncoming torp before it activated. For those not too familiar with this scene in the movie, what happens is this (what are you doing playing Cold Waters if you have not watched this movie):
The crew of the Dallas is on the Red October and the Russian and US crews are exchanging pleasantries when all of a sudden they hear a Russian torp fly overhead. Capt. Ramius gets his remaining officers and the US personnel to man the crew stations and gets the sub underway. Sonar reports a torpedo in the water on the bearing of 315. Capt. Ramius commands Jack Ryan to turn the Red October to the incoming torp bearing of 315. He hesitates and Cmdr. Mancuso (Capt. of the US Sub Dallas), tells him not to do it as he will be heading straight at an incoming torp, not something that any sub captain would do, they would rater to turn away and try to shake the torp off. Trusting in Ramius, Ryan makes the turn to 315. Ramius remains as cool as his perfectly shaped beard, orders the sub to go to flank speed and then engages in a discussion with Ryan about books. The rest of the crew are saying their prayers and expecting the worst. Next thing, the torpedo smashes into the bow of the sub and disintegrates into hundreds of pieces. Situation diffused, Ryan turns to Mancuso and asks what just happened. Mancuso, impressed with his Soviet counterparts says "combat tactics Ryan, he closed the range of the torpedo before it had a chance to arm".

My question is this: Has anyone tried this tactic in the game (I am going to give it a shot, but am doubtful it will work, it may take a few goes)?
I know that if it was me that had shot the torp at a sub and noticed that it was turning into the torp before it was activated, I would take advantage of the wire guided function and just move the activation point. As for non wire guided torps, the situation would be different (or if the wire broke).
Also I have noticed that the Soviet subs do not change the heading of their torps once fired and they only divert from their fired course once activated.
Side note, this tactic would not work with helo, plane or missile launched torps as they immediately go active once they hit the water.

XenonSurf 11-15-2017 08:30 PM

You can run in your torp in CW if you fire one at too close a target. The only thing the enemy needs to do is dropping a noisemaker, the torp will turn and say hello to your sub.
I never saw a enemy torp hitting the enemy ship, I think the devs have made this impossible, but not for your sub :)

In the game, changing your vertical position quickly and making at least a 100 turn at 25 knots should evade the torp for some time, but to re-direct it in one specific position just make a smaller turn, but still go up or down quickly and the torp should run in that direction under or over your sub. So theoretically it works, but as said: because it would be too easy to get rid of an enemy, the devs must have disabled friendly AI torp hits (I don't know, I'll be happy to hear anyone saying the contrary). Also the enemy must be *really* close, 2-3 ky at maximum for the torpedo to follow him.
What is possible is: colliding with the enemy, this will take you severe hull damage and floodings,more than a torpedo hit.

MR_AUS 11-15-2017 08:48 PM

Update:
Just tried it with one of my own torps. Shot a Mk48, sent it out and wire guided it back at me. It did not reach the point where it automatically starts tracking a target (either passive or active), it was just running in a straight line as ordered. Boom! Blew myself up.
So, as far as I can tell, the warhead safety is removed and as soon as it hits something regardless of reaching its "activating" way point. The torps are live as soon as they are fired.
Yet to test this theory against any Soviet torps yet, but based on the above experience, I would expect the same result.
Are there any real world Submariners here that could provide some info on the activation of the warhead on torpedoes? Was the situation in Red October just a nice piece of writing for the film that is accurate or not?
If it is accurate, it would be nice if the game developers could improve the realism of the torpedoes in the game so that we could have another way of avoiding a big hole in the side of the boat (but yep, it would be a big risky move but cunning if pulled off).

Sonoboy 11-15-2017 08:49 PM

I have shot a moss at an enemy sub. Moss disappeared on impact.

I shot a torpedo at an enemy sub, set to arm behind it. Torpedo impacted the sub and blew it up.

So, it seems unactivated torps are armed.

EnjoyableSTIG 11-15-2017 09:10 PM

Have you not blow yourself up in the '68 campaign with MK37's????

Not that I have ever done that... :o

XenonSurf 11-15-2017 09:18 PM

What Commander Tupolev did in Red October was removing the magnetic detonators from the torpedos to make them hit at any distance, I think this cannot be done in a sub without dismounting and remounting all the warheads and would also be the hell dangerous I guess...
So yes, it's just Hollywood...
Also i remember that Tupolev was launching the torpedo by crashing the button with his fist instead of pushing it, this has been removed in the DVD version of the movie, why can't they leave good sequences without cutting... :doh:

MR_AUS 11-15-2017 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XenonSurf (Post 2525465)
What Commander Tupolev did in Red October was removing the magnetic detonators from the torpedos to make them hit at any distance, I think this cannot be done in a sub without dismounting and remounting all the warheads and would also be the hell dangerous I guess...
So yes, it's just Hollywood...
Also i remember that Tupolev was launching the torpedo by crashing the button with his fist instead of pushing it, this has been removed in the DVD version of the movie, why can't they leave good sequences without cutting... :doh:

Yes, that was for the third torpedo that ended up coming back to blow up Tupolev (after Dallas intercepted it from Red October, then pulled it into the path of the Soviet Alpha, Knovalov).

So the first torpedo missed (flew overhead of the Red October).
Second torpedo was crashed into by Red October (before it had a chance to arm- as said in the movie)
Third torpedo was fired with the "safeties set to zero" as ordered by Tupolev.

Guess what I am asking is can a torpedo simply impact something without exploding after being launched due to some safety mechanism (range/run time/fuse etc.)? If yes, it would be nice to have in CW for realism.

Tinman764 11-16-2017 01:17 AM

The closest I think you can get to that situation right now is to turn into enemy torps before they go active and hope you can close the distance and get them behind you before they start pinging.

I've managed to do this once and it felt pretty badass :)

speed150mph 11-16-2017 01:59 PM

I agree with Tinman, while smashing into the torp is not a good tactic, running at flank in the torpedos direction before it activates is a viable tactic. You taking the risk that the torpedo may enable before you pass it, but if your close enough it may not be able to turn fast enough to intercept you. If you pull it off and left a decoy in front of you you have successfully evaded with little chance of being reaquired.

I haven't tried it in CW, but it's a favourite of mine in the Akula in DW. Fire counter shot to get the enemy running, run flank towards torpedo, drop decoy behind me. Pass torpedo, slow to one third. The enemy skipper is deaf during his evasion usually so if you slow before him, you will now be much closer to him then he thinks. He's looking in the wrong area and you have a tactical advantage in that. :)

Capt Jack Harkness 11-16-2017 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XenonSurf (Post 2525465)
What Commander Tupolev did in Red October was removing the magnetic detonators from the torpedos to make them hit at any distance, I think this cannot be done in a sub without dismounting and remounting all the warheads and would also be the hell dangerous I guess...
So yes, it's just Hollywood...
Also i remember that Tupolev was launching the torpedo by crashing the button with his fist instead of pushing it, this has been removed in the DVD version of the movie, why can't they leave good sequences without cutting... :doh:

Not to mention the Alfas are as automated as possible. Do they even have men in the torpedo room?

Falkirion 11-16-2017 05:38 PM

Can't say I've ever run into a torpedo, I tend to just assume as soon as anything clears the tube its hot and I stay the heck away from it.

Have had one fired at long range from me which I immediately upped the speed to avoid and was about 3k yards from where it eventually activated rushing headlong down a course about 30 degrees off where I assume the enemy sub thought I was.

Capt.Hunt 11-23-2017 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XenonSurf (Post 2525457)
You can run in your torp in CW if you fire one at too close a target. The only thing the enemy needs to do is dropping a noisemaker, the torp will turn and say hello to your sub.
I never saw a enemy torp hitting the enemy ship, I think the devs have made this impossible, but not for your sub :)

In the game, changing your vertical position quickly and making at least a 100 turn at 25 knots should evade the torp for some time, but to re-direct it in one specific position just make a smaller turn, but still go up or down quickly and the torp should run in that direction under or over your sub. So theoretically it works, but as said: because it would be too easy to get rid of an enemy, the devs must have disabled friendly AI torp hits (I don't know, I'll be happy to hear anyone saying the contrary). Also the enemy must be *really* close, 2-3 ky at maximum for the torpedo to follow him.
What is possible is: colliding with the enemy, this will take you severe hull damage and floodings,more than a torpedo hit.

Nope AI torps can circular run. I used this tactic to sink an enemy Victor III once, as I was on my way to insert a SEAL team and had limited ordinance. I was running from a full salvo of enemy fish, so I sprinted towards him and started running circles around the Victor and dropping noisemakers. Eventually a couple of the fish homed on the Victor instead of me and put it on the bottom. I've also had ownship weapons circle back after losing wire continuity, which is disturbing because I thought Mk48s had safeguards against circular runs. It's times like this I wish we had the ability to command detonate torpedoes

MR_AUS 11-23-2017 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt.Hunt (Post 2526933)
Nope AI torps can circular run. I used this tactic to sink an enemy Victor III once, as I was on my way to insert a SEAL team and had limited ordinance. I was running from a full salvo of enemy fish, so I sprinted towards him and started running circles around the Victor and dropping noisemakers. Eventually a couple of the fish homed on the Victor instead of me and put it on the bottom. I've also had ownship weapons circle back after losing wire continuity, which is disturbing because I thought Mk48s had safeguards against circular runs. It's times like this I wish we had the ability to command detonate torpedoes

It would be nice if the safety parameters for torps could be set, i.e. detonate/deactivate if the wire brakes etc. Although as many would know, wire brakes are common when manoeuvring or turning, it could be a good safety measure when operating in shallow waters so you don't get the "dammit I just wrecked my self".
Does anyone know how things like this happen in the real world, i.e. will a torp avoid its own ship that fired it if the wire brakes?

Capt.Hunt 11-23-2017 03:46 PM

If I recall correctly, the safety mechanism just uses the torpedoes inertial guidance system to prevent the torpedo from turning enough to point back at ownship.

MR_AUS 11-23-2017 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt.Hunt (Post 2527057)
If I recall correctly, the safety mechanism just uses the torpedoes inertial guidance system to prevent the torpedo from turning enough to point back at ownship.

Thanks, that would make perfect sense, unless the firing sub has moved from the launching spot and is now in the line of fire???
Probably something that would not happen in real life, mainly training scenarios, but in the case of all out war, anything could happen.


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