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-   -   Celestial Navigation with RFB / TMO mods? (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=231708)

Wildcat 06-09-17 08:30 AM

Celestial Navigation with RFB / TMO mods?
 
Does anyone have some hints on how to do this and get it working right?

Thread links / download links would be appreciated.

propbeanie 06-09-17 10:03 AM

I haven't kept track of them, and the "newest" I could find says for v1.3 on it's release thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...248#post607248

but for v1.4 on its download post:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...do=file&id=525

... if they're the same thing... There's probably others that would be easier to incorporate, since if you read closely, may87th mentions messing with the menu_1024_768.ini file, which always overly-complicates things if you're trying to "merge" mods together...

I'm sure there's others, but... :salute:

Rockin Robbins 06-09-17 10:41 AM

To make it work you have to cheat somehow, because there are no in-game tools to make it happen. The sky is wrong. Your clock is wrong. You don't have a sextant. In order to make an external program work you have to feed your position into the astronomy program to get the position with the "sextant" which is just chasing your own tail. Not only that, but the earth in SH4 is a cylinder, not a sphere or oblate spheroid. How are you going to get real celestial navigation stuff to fix your position on a cylindrical world? It can't.

SH4 is not a planetarium or a celestial navigation simulator. Any attempt to make it one kills the functionality of the game.

Wildcat 06-10-17 10:01 AM

That sucks, but oh well I guess.

Is anyone out there doing the cheat method using stellarium?

While I suppose it's sort-of pointless to do it, it's still an interesting exercise in using the sextant or star/sunsighting I suppose.


Does anybody know if the star placements are correct, even if the times are not?

I am a big fan of polynesian navigation techniques and have completed several long distance navigations in FSX and other sims using nothing but star-courses. I would really love to try this in SH4, but the spacing between the stars must be correct. The timing does not matter much, but if the stars are in the wrong places of the sky relative to eachother it is useless.

propbeanie 06-10-17 11:05 AM

I haven't a clue if this will give you any satisfaction:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=117216

and

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=116170

Some of the posts overlap what I listed above. Some of the folks back then seemed to think that the stars were "accurate" in SH4. I have no idea what their idea of "accurate" is... The moon isn't, the sun isn't, time isn't, the world is "flat" on a cylinder, but ya never know until you try 'em. I'd make a "spare" copy of the game to experiment in though...

vdr1981 06-10-17 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins (Post 2489820)

SH4 is not a planetarium or a celestial navigation simulator. Any attempt to make it one kills the functionality of the game.

Any SH game should be realistic simulation of submarine operations during the WW2 period. I really don't see how could real navigation mod (optional if you like) in any way "kill the functionality" of the game ? :hmmm:

To be honest, the main reason why I went over from SH3/4 to SH5 is "GPS device" on WW2 subs...Seems pretty unconvincing and game braking to me.

I understand that real celestial navigation mod is not possible in SH3/4 but if there was one, it certainly wouldn't hurt...

Cheers!

Rockin Robbins 06-11-17 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vdr1981 (Post 2490152)
Any SH game should be realistic simulation of submarine operations during the WW2 period. I really don't see how could real navigation mod (optional if you like) in any way "kill the functionality" of the game ? :hmmm:

To be honest, the main reason why I went over from SH3/4 to SH5 is "GPS device" on WW2 subs...Seems pretty unconvincing and game braking to me.

I understand that real celestial navigation mod is not possible in SH3/4 but if there was one, it certainly wouldn't hurt...

Cheers!

Because of the way that the nav map is designed you give up all targeting and tracking with the nav map in order to get celestial navigation. Not only that but you have to feed where you are (and that's what you're trying to work out) to your external planetarium program in order to work the azimuth and altitude of the object you want to use to yield......the same thing you had to feed the astronomy program with in order for it to work.

Not only that but the Earth in Silent Hunter 4 is a cylinder. However all geometry used in celestial navigation is spherical. Could there be some conflict here with wrong results? NAW!!!

No, in order for celestial navigation to work in SH3/SH4 the entire mapping system would have to be reworked, the sky would have to be useful and accurate, you'd have to write a sextant and chronometer into the game, nautical almanacs, proper charts and tools, a rework of the plotting board, radar and sonar would all be involved.

I don't know about SH5 and don't want to know, but I'll bet not much is truly different. The game is meant to be tactical simulation, Not navigational simulation or plumbing simulation or sonar simulation or radar simulation, or even TDC simulation. There is a long way to go in diesel-electric submarine simulation and I'm not sure anybody really wants to go there.

Bubblehead1980 06-11-17 05:32 PM

Yes, I wish celestial navigation was a "realism" option and properly simulated along with many other things in SH 4 but it is NOT and likely never will be. Having said that, SH 4 with the proper mods is a great sim. My hope is we get to the point where someone with the skill and knowledge can deal with hard codded issues. Look how far this sim has come in 10 years and is very much alive, no telling what is next.

BigWalleye 06-12-17 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins (Post 2490445)
I don't know about SH5 and don't want to know, but I'll bet not much is truly different.

That's a pity, because SH5, with TWoS, really gets it right. The navigator - not the captain - takes 5 celestial fixes a day, conditions permitting. (He will do additional sights if you tell him to.) He works them up - takes about half an hour - and marks the boat's calculated position on the nav chart. Depending on his skill rating, this mark may be close to the boat's true position. Or not. :) Unless you're in sight of a recognizable land feature, you don't know. He also does DR estimates periodically. These take less time and don't require a horizon, but the errors are greater and compound over time. Kind of like the way it happens on a real boat.

Of course, if the player has doubts about the Nav's ability and wants to take a cel fix himself, then SH5 becomes probably no better than SH3 or SH4. But hopefully, that's a pretty unlikely scenario anyway.

Quote:

The game is meant to be tactical simulation, Not navigational simulation or plumbing simulation or sonar simulation or radar simulation, or even TDC simulation.
Someone who gets it! Amen, brother. Amen.

vdr1981 06-12-17 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigWalleye (Post 2490614)

Of course, if the player has doubts about the Nav's ability and wants to take a cel fix himself, then SH5 becomes probably no better than SH3 or SH4.

I think you're wrong because, according to people who actually know how to do real nav stuff, SH5 has accurate celestial sphere (surprisingly, developers did at least something right)...

There's even a tutorial by sjizzle...http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=206103

BigWalleye 06-12-17 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vdr1981 (Post 2490648)
I think you're wrong because, according to people who actually know how to do real nav stuff, SH5 has accurate celestial sphere (surprisingly, developers did at least something right)...

There's even a tutorial by sjizzle...http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=206103

I stand corrected. I have never tried to do cel nav in SH5 or any Silent Hunter game. Not the captain's job. For me, doing "the real nav stuff" is OK when I'm really on a boat, but not appropriate when playing a tac simulation game. YMMV.

aanker 06-12-17 01:19 PM

I know what time it is at my location
 
I may get yelled at again by Mr know it all but so be it.

In real life the Earth is a bumpy oblate spheroid, in SH4 the Earth is a cylinder.

The first thing I do each patrol is draw vertical lines 7.5 degrees on each side of 180d, the International Date Line. Next I draw vertical lines every 15 degrees from these first two vertical lines; going East and West, every 15 degrees is a vertical line.

Because every 15 degrees is one hour it is easy to find out what time it is at my location. If I am based at Pearl, that is Base Time and is the time of day displayed in my Boat the entire patrol.

Once I cross one of the vertical lines I drew every 15 degrees, I subtract one hour from Base Time to find out what time it is at my location. By the time I reach Empire waters, about four hours need to be subtracted from Base Time to find out what time it is at my location. The line at Western Japan is about 5 hours less than Base Time.

There are charts that list Sunrise, Sunset, Moon-rise and Moon-set, plus the Moon phases by date. I edited in these three pages into my in-game F1 Help file.

Since this is a game on cylinder your distance North & South of the equator don't matter that much for Sunrise, Sunset, etc.

I find that knowing what the 'rough' time is at my location found by subtracting one hour every 15 degrees heading West from Pearl, and the date, can be used with my in-game celestial charts to find out; will it be a Full Moon, Quarter Moon, or New Moon etc. Knowing the time tells me what time the Sun and Moon rise and set. This knowledge helps me plan Special Missions, and plan my attacks to my advantage.

So, I know what time it is at my location by subtraction and what time the Sun & Moon will rise and set using the charts.

Of course if I was headed East instead, I would add an hour every 15 degrees.

Happy Hunting!

propbeanie 06-12-17 02:16 PM

Have you found then Art, that the SH4 game is rather "accurate" at the Moon and Sun phases and "times"? What I'm thinking of is if we drew those vertical lines on the game's Nav Chart (would it be easier to put that in the Campaign_LOC.mis file??), using that Blue Chalk font, the player could do the math themselves, using your little Help File add-in?... We'd have "aanker's Sun and Moon Phases Assistance Mod"... ??

"Do you have trouble attacking those Convoys? Is a dead-calm sea the least of your worries? Do the Momi dance like the Kaibokan on your head? Does it seem like the moon is always full when you're trying to do an attack, and you're seen from 9200 yards out? Well, load this puppy up, follow Art's directions, and never more have to find out at 0100 hours that it ain't a cool time to attack! Download now, and we'll throw in a free set of Ginsu knives!"

aanker 06-12-17 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie (Post 2490736)
Have you found then Art, that the SH4 game is rather "accurate" at the Moon and Sun phases and "times"? What I'm thinking of is if we drew those vertical lines on the game's Nav Chart (would it be easier to put that in the Campaign_LOC.mis file??), using that Blue Chalk font, the player could do the math themselves, using your little Help File add-in?... We'd have "aanker's Sun and Moon Phases Assistance Mod"... ??

"Do you have trouble attacking those Convoys? Is a dead-calm sea the least of your worries? Do the Momi dance like the Kaibokan on your head? Does it seem like the moon is always full when you're trying to do an attack, and you're seen from 9200 yards out? Well, load this puppy up, follow Art's directions, and never more have to find out at 0100 hours that it ain't a cool time to attack! Download now, and we'll throw in a free set of Ginsu knives!"

Yes, the Moon phases are accurate; Full Moon, Gibbous, Quarter, etc and Moon-rise, Moon-set are also reasonably accurate using Local time, not Base time found by the 015d equals one hour method. It makes deciding to do a night surface attack and other tasks easier to resolve. Same with Sunrise - Sunset. I don't mind dead calm seas if the Sun is going to set soon.
If the chart says New Moon there is no moon, and despite how good the Japanese lookouts are, they have a harder time in the dark.
I borrowed - stole the Tables from a mod that someone put together called, 'Combat Information Center'
Quote:

chapter 14: moon phases 1941 to 1945

dates and times of moon phases in the war years.

chapter 15: moon nautical almanac, rise and set times for the moon, during the war year 1941 to 1945

chapter 16: sun nautical almanac, rise and set times for the sun, during the war year 1941 to 1945
and is the only part of the mod I used (I hope the author greyrider is not disappointed ; ) greyrider posted this one mod and I never saw him post again.

Happy Hunting!

propbeanie 06-12-17 09:17 PM

So, what mod are you usually playing, aanker? I'll see if I can get a straight line to draw in a MIS file, and send you something...


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