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-   -   Playing at full realism settings (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=212392)

bybyx 04-02-14 05:18 AM
Playing at full realism settings
 
Hello:salute:
I want to take a chance by playing at full realism settings and I would appreciate any advice the good people here can give. I know how to proper use the TDC and i am decent with the radar too, but i want to learn more about tracking and plotting course for a ship or a convoy after i have found them visually or with hydrophone.
Thanks in advance!
:subsim:

ReallyDedPoet 04-02-14 08:25 AM
Check out this link. Lot's of great stuff there:
Here

TorpX 04-03-14 12:15 AM
It's hard to give specific advise, since there is a big difference between playing with full realism settings, and playing realistically.

However, you mentioned plotting, so I would advise you to forgo map contacts (when you are ready). This is a more difficult mode of play, but you will learn the business better, and is more realistic.

Every plot will consist of a series of observations, and every observation should provide information related to bearing, range, course, and speed. There are only 4. Knowing these provides all the information you need for a firing solution.

Bearing and range are readily understood, but many have difficulty with course and speed; especially course (i.e. Aob). To obtain good estimates of course, you must understand what the Angle off the Bow is, and be able to estimate it. Estimating Aob can be tricky, but improves with practice. If you have good plot with points accurately located (that is having good values of bearing, range and course) speed can then be easily calculated.

There is a utility in the downloads section that has a training mode where you can estimate the Aob of a ship, and then see how good your estimate was:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1358


Also, if you don't dislike math, and are interested in non-TDC methods this will interest you:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=200846&page=4

raymond6751 04-03-14 05:01 AM
Torpx WOW
 
That's a great application. Well done.

Now full realism includes crew training. I, the player, can now train myself using your tool and testing at various skill levels. Wonderful.

Another aspect of full realism, to many people, is avoiding the TC, meaning playing at real time. While this is realistic...nobody has enough time to do this at TC1 and have a normal life.

What I do, and suggest, is play at TC1 until I am about to finish a session for the day. Then I speed up to get past a lot of empty ocean. The next time I start, I begin further into my patrol without wasting a lot of time.

CapnScurvy 04-03-14 08:11 AM
You might want to look at my "High Realism Tutorial" I've had floating around for a while. I explain many of the concepts you'll need to learn like determining AoB; the function/use of the Position Keeper; how to plot a target on the Navigation Map using the realism option of "No map contacts update"; there's a handy "Speed Chart" and "Worksheet" too.

This revised version, released in 2009, can be used with or without my "AoB Calculator". A hand held device that will aid in determining a target's bearing and course when at the Navigation Map. There have been several editions of the Calculator since I made it in 2007 (I see Gutted is using it in his Solution Solver), the latest was reproduced by Jerm138 in a PDF form found HERE.

Along with the Tutorial, you may wish to download the "Practice High Realism Mission" which sets up the same target the Tutorial uses. Being able to follow along using the same target will get you up to speed in figuring out the mechanics of manual targeting, under a controlled environment. It's JSGME compatible, you just add the mission to the game as any other mod.

As always, read the Documentation for all of the above.

Good luck!

ReallyDedPoet 04-03-14 08:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnScurvy (Post 2193458)
You might want to look at my "High Realism Tutorial" I've had floating around for a while. I explain many of the concepts you'll need to learn like determining AoB; the function/use of the Position Keeper; how to plot a target on the Navigation Map using the realism option of "No map contacts update"; there's a handy "Speed Chart" and "Worksheet" too.

This revised version, released in 2009, can be used with or without my "AoB Calculator". A hand held device that will aid in determining a target's bearing and course when at the Navigation Map. There have been several editions of the Calculator since I made it in 2007 (I see Gutted is using it in his Solution Solver), the latest was reproduced by Jerm138 in a PDF form found HERE.

Along with the Tutorial, you may wish to download the "Practice High Realism Mission" which sets up the same target the Tutorial uses. Being able to follow along using the same target will get you up to speed in figuring out the mechanics of manual targeting, under a controlled environment. It's JSGME compatible, you just add the mission to the game as any other mod.

As always, read the Documentation for all of the above.

Good luck!
Nice ^^^ :yep:

After I get done with my Real Navigation Mod, I plan to also go back to Manual Targeting and a higher level of realism.

Sniper297 04-03-14 06:16 PM
Personally I ignore AOB and set it to 80. Get a few range and bearing marks, draw a line thru those, that's the target's track. Don't head for the target, head directly for the track since the idea is to be 1000 yards off the track at 90 degrees to the track when he gets to the firing point. While moving toward the track take another range and bearing, mark it on the chart, then use the stopwatch or measure out a mile, whatever's easiest for you to determine speed.

My experience with AOB is it's difficult to judge when you're where you're supposed to be, if you're on the track or just off it the AOB is gonna be somewhere between zero and 10 and won't change much until he gets really close, then it will increase rapidly as he crosses your tubes. That's why I set it at 80 and leave it, since that's about what it will be when he hits the firing point. You really wanna use the TDC to keep track you can measure the angle between your sub's heading and the target's course from his current position, that will give you the most accurate AOB.

Armistead 04-03-14 06:43 PM
Easiest and perfect way to get AOB is to get the course and set it on the AOB wheel if you use the TDC.

TorpX 04-04-14 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper297 (Post 2193657)
Personally I ignore AOB and set it to 80.
.........

........

You really wanna use the TDC to keep track you can measure the angle between your sub's heading and the target's course from his current position, that will give you the most accurate AOB.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2193672)
Easiest and perfect way to get AOB is to get the course and set it on the AOB wheel if you use the TDC.
OK, at the risk of making myself unpopular, I have to address this misconception.

If we are talking about realistic methods here, then you can't get Aob from course, period. No matter how many books you read, or how many patrol reports you go through, you will not find a single skipper who said he obtained the Aob from plotting the course. If RL captains could have simply drawn a line through the first two points of a plot and thereby disposed of the Aob matter, don't you think they would have done so? Look in the training manuals. You won't find this method there, either.

Why do I say this? The reason they needed to estimate the Aob is to determine the course. Simply put, they obtained course from Aob, not Aob from course. Apart from estimates of Aob, they really had no good way of determining the course. Even if they were making a RADAR plot, all they could rely upon knowing is the base course. To get torpedoes to the target, they would still need to estimate the Aob to know what the course of the present leg was. Knowing the base course only, would not be sufficient.

The only reason why we can obtain the Aob from drawing a couple lines in the game plot, is that the whole map-contacts/plot aspect of this sim is poorly designed. It is very unrealistic. You can only obtain the Aob from course, if the plotted points are precise and accurate. In real-life, this was not the case. Furthermore, game ships don't zig-zag. Targets in RL usually did. Some of the tactics that work well in SHIV, would be useless to real-life sub captains.

This is one reason why gamers can easily obtain near 100% success in their attacks, but in WWII, many attacks failed. Skippers had to rely on imprecise data, and this made torpedo attacks an uncertain business.

bybyx 04-04-14 04:05 AM
Thanks for the input! :salute:
I have Werner Sobe's tutorials from way back when they were released and any time I return to SH4 i watch them again and again.:up: I also downloaded the tutorials that CapnScurvy mentions. :yep:Now i am at my first patrol with full realism settings in the game options and while an route to southern Formosa i was making a hydrophone sweep and picked up some contacts. By the way sometimes the game lags when a convoy is close:D so you know you found something:haha:. I think i read about this some time long ago.:rotfl2:
How to proceed now that i have those contacts on hydrophone?
I will list my activated mods in the hopes that if i put them wrong it could be corrected:
1. TMO 2.5
2. TMO small patch
3. Convoy routes TMO+RFB
4. TMO Sub textures FooSkin
5. RSRD
6. RSRD Patch1
7. OTC
8. OTC Realistic scopes
9. OTC Tokko's revenge
10.ISE v3 TMO&RFB
11. ISE Realistic colors

One more thing, has anyone tried to make a mod that simulates what Toprx was saying about real life situations?

CapnScurvy 04-04-14 10:04 AM
Your mod order seems just fine bybyx.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX
If we are talking about realistic methods here, then you can't get Aob from course, period. No matter how many books you read, or how many patrol reports you go through, you will not find a single skipper who said he obtained the Aob from plotting the course.......... Look in the training manuals. You won't find this method there, either.
Well, I can't exactly address why the Captain's that wrote about their war stories did not explain the whole story about their achievements (I doubt any of them shared the royalties from their books with their subordinates either!), but there's plenty of instructions about what a Captain should do with a Navigational plot.

Using the "Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual" I draw your attention to Chapter 4, where it talks about the makeup of the "Torpedo Fire Control Party". Page 3:
Quote:

405. NAVIGATIONAL PLOTTER: The Navigational Plotter is an officer whose station is in the conning tower at the DRT. His primary duty is to maintain a navigational plot of the target or targets designated by the Approach Officer. He furnishes the TDC Operator and the Approach Officer the values of target course and speed obtained from the plot. In addition he furnishes predicted data regarding the target's position based on best known target course and speed, if requested.
This man is only one of 15 listed as participants in the "Torpedo Fire Control" group (in-game we have to do the work of 15!!), yet his duty is to provide a map plot for the exact reason of providing the Captain (Approach Officer) with target course and speed.

Further reading, Chapter 5, Page 32:

Quote:

540. THE NAVIGATION PLOTTER: The Navigational Plot is one of the most important stations in the submarine fire control party. It is the only source from which a picture of the entire approach can be obtained. The Navigational Plot furnishes valuable information on target speed, target course, times of target zigs, average length of zig legs, and predicted target range when the submarine is below periscope depth. In order to furnish the Fire Control Party with this valuable information the Navigational Plotter must strive for accuracy, neatness, and speed.
...."one of the most important stations in the submarine fire control party"? :hmmm:

The training manuals speak for themselves. If a Captain/Author wanted to slight specific aspects for expedience in writing, or just take sole credit for his accomplishments over giving details of who/what may have helped in it......well, you be the judge.:D

Armistead 04-04-14 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX (Post 2193752)
OK, at the risk of making myself unpopular, I have to address this misconception.


I'm speaking regarding the game. If you look where you set the AOB to the left, the wheel has where you can spin it to to course. Just mark two points and get heading/course and set that and you'll see what your AOB is. So basically the enemies course relative to your sub becomes the perfect AOB. The EZ AOB mod lets you free spin the AOB will so it's faster, but you can easily set it as well with a click.

Course if you play with contacts off it's more difficult.

TorpX 04-05-14 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnScurvy (Post 2193844)


...."one of the most important stations in the submarine fire control party"? :hmmm:

The training manuals speak for themselves. If a Captain/Author wanted to slight specific aspects for expedience in writing, or just take sole credit for his accomplishments over giving details of who/what may have helped in it......well, you be the judge.:D
None of the excerpts contradict my assertion. I didn't say the plot was unimportant - quite the contrary. What I'm saying is that the Aob was used to develop the plot. If the method of connecting two points and deducing the Aob, the skill of estimating the Aob by observation, would not have been taught or practiced. There would be little need for it.

This diagram (from the training manuals) illustrates what I mean:

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7e234d29.png



There's a considerable amount of information here.

First, in the little table at near the top, there is the information from each of the six observations, arranged in 4 columns. TIME, BEARING, RANGE, AOB (they use the abbreviation Ab). Notice that the time and bearing value are precise, but the ranges and Aob's are in round numbers.

Second see that every point plotted has a small arrow drawn that shows the observed Aob. Nowhere is the Aob surmised from a line drawn through two nearby points. If you try to deduce the Aob or course by simply drawing a line between any two plotted points, you will not obtain an accurate value in most cases. The error in the range estimates precludes this method.

Note also the target ship course lines are not actually drawn through the plotted points. The plot had to be 'faired' and this required further observations and judgment by the people involved.

Plotting the targets course was not just a matter of making 2 or 3 observations, drawing a line, and having the matter over and done.

BigWalleye 04-05-14 07:34 AM
Cap'n Scurvy and TorpX, I believe you are BOTH correct. Based on my reading over the years, here is how I believe that fire control was executed: The Approach Officer estimated the range, AoB, and speed, and called these out for entry into the TDC. TDC then calculated the target course. The Plotting Party kept updating the attack plot with target range-and-bearing as called out by the Approach Officer. (And AoB, as TorpX points out.) Plotting Party and TDC independently developed a firing solution, based on the two different sets of data. The solutions were checked against each other. Both solutions had to agree, or the boat commander (who usually was, but might not be, the Approach Officer) would not clear to fire. Torpedoes were not supposed to be wasted in snap shots.

IIRC, both O'Kane and Fluckey describe situations were the Plot and TDC solutions disagreed. "Check fire." There was tension and fuming while the discrepancies were resolved. (Beggin' yer pardon, but this early on a Sattidy, I am not up to finding the references.)

Range and bearing do give course, heading, and speed, but AoB immediately identifies target course changes (like zigzags).

Of course, the target range and bearing were determined mechanically, from the bearing ring and stadimeter. The AoB was judged by the Approach Officer, using the Mark I Human Eyeball. It's probably not surprising if former Approach Officers, in their post-war memoirs, sometimes emphasized the parts of their job that called for the most skill on their part.

Another observation from TorpX's excellent illustration: range and AoB data begin at 10000 yds. How hard is it for us to make any kind of range or AoB estimate at 10000? Those first long-range observations were probably easier in the R/L analog periscope view, but not a lot easier. They didn't wait until the target image was clear enough for accurate estimates, because then they would wind up basing their solution on 2 or 3 observations, like we often do. If we want to play "realistically" (in a historically appropriate manner), then we need to train ourselves to make and use good estimates at long range.

Sniper297 04-08-14 01:09 PM
Even if they're zigzagging 30 degrees either side of the base course it's pretty difficult to get closer than "20 to 40 degrees port" from 10000 yards. Coming along without zigzagging can you really tell the difference between AOB port 5 and AOB port 10? Even at close range you can tell if it's not zero when you can see part of one side or the other and not just bow on, but anything more accurate than "less than 30" or "more than 30" or "about 60" would take psychic powers. You can get a GENERAL course from AOB and tweak it later by making a second mark and drawing a line through it, but when it comes to shooting at close range you simply don't have time to do anything other than preset the AOB to 70 or 80 and leave it alone.


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