Single player upgrade
 

If you were going to add single player user interface, would you add icons to the screen that set course, speed, depth?

Or icons that move you to the proper compartment to manually adjust the dials and levers?

How would you handle the balance, would you make single player UI an option only when there is just one player, or would it be available in cases where there are two players, three players?

I'd make it a single player UI as an option only when there is just one player. Running around in the boat to adjust here and there while making an attack run might be a bit too much when you are all alone. If it is an option, you can still choose between running around or using icons to set speed etc., me thinks.

Make it so TheDarkWraith can mod it either way :-p

I voted "Other" since my position on this is very nuanced. Bear in mind that I'm coming at this from a *primarily* single-player perspective, so I'm looking for the greatest immersion and utility in that mode and thinking less of PvP.

I'm in favour of a concept where each major function of the boat is handled by a crew, and players can take over a position from the AI crew. This implies that the AI crew should have realistically human performance in their handling of each position, so that a human player can perform better if skilled, and worse if unskilled.

A single player would necessarily take the commanding role (except perhaps for focused tutorial missions), and will be directly in charge of an attack. He should therefore have a very quick and easy way to give straightforward commands for the rest of the crew (AI or otherwise) to carry out, and for that purpose a set of UI icons similar to Silent Hunter's would make a lot of sense. These would set explicit goals for the crew to work towards, either by an explicit, realistic telegraph instrument (as for engine commands) or a virtual "bug" superimposed on the real one, backed up by a voice repeater.

Voice commands basically work for commanding players, but even this gets a bit cacophonic (without established military phraseology and discipline) and would probably prove unreliable for commanding AI crew.

When not in the attacking phase, a single player will often wish to attend to different stations himself, eg. listening to a sonar contact to verify or supplement the sonarman's analysis, or going over the charts with the navigator. Also, a multi-crewed boat may be shorthanded, requiring players to change stations regularly for maximum operational efficiency.

For this purpose, being able to walk around the sub step by step is sufficient, but potentially tedious. At the same time, adding the ability to teleport between stations instantly is a little too unrealistic. Instead, buttons which pathfind the player directly to an operating position at a normal pace for the situation (cruising, action, or silent) would probably work well, without causing a major imbalance.

But the quick command icons are the essential feature. I don't see any other way to reliably command an AI crew.

simple
 

I would make all control inputs for all stations so they are mapped to either keyboard, directx, or analog inputs so they can be accessed from anywhere on the boat. This would allow for single player controls as well as mapping of physical controls used in physical simulator environments (as in the working replica type vii control room I'd like to build). As someone who has built and maintained professional flight simulator hardware/software environments for years and who wants to build a realistic simulated u-boat environment this would make my life significantly easier while at the same time provide for single player control of the boat. For sim environment builders it's essential to have ALL sim functions mappable to any input desired.

I would not use icons on screen for this at all, since it would be seamless with all inputs mapped.

Gwen

(the crazy flight sim/real aircraft/sub sim builder woman) =P

I have a desktop with 4gig ram graphics card .
22'' monitor
Keyboard
Mouse
I don't like key commands . I always use the GUI with SH5 .
cheers .

I'm for what the devs talked about on June 7th & 14th Subsim chats..

1. Add AI players at every station initially as the sub spawns into game. The original player to create the sub is assumed to be captain at the start and has buttons to command the AI as needed. No teleporting.

2. As human crew are permitted to join, and walk to a station, the human may "relieve the AI player" to take over the station, but if human walks away, AI resumes the station with full animations "looking busy" but changing nothing until given the order from the captain.

3. If the sub can hold 6 humans eventually and all 6 humans are aboard, the AI players still populate the sub in positions that convey realism, even if it is just a bunk room or kitchen or doing maintenance - with other animations for silent running.

Also as Sober said above, no need for emotional conversations with AI or puzzle over solutions on whether or not to shoot the cook, as this game is designed for humans to play from different locations within the sub and interact with each other..

hello HMS Marulken devs,

for me, nothing can beat the 2d stations ui . I am looking forward to see detailed and ,as possible can be done, at simulator fuctionality stations at which the player can ACCURATELLY control the devices of each station.

for me the key for a succesive simulator is not the 3d parts but the sim itself on which the player will be able to use the devices with all their glory. the hydrophone room was a very huppy surprise for me as you made it. i saw in there more fuctions for this so 'sensitive' device of submarines and i would really like to have a 2d station for this (and for the periscope and for the radar) at which i will be able to accuratelly use the parts.

playing it only at 3d views was a 'torture' for me as i was unable to accuratelly control anything.everything was made at 'about' i wanted to make rather than where 'exactly' i wanted it to be made. very soon the fan starting fading away. Of course, i am sure that down the road you will fix all these but i see no reason not to include the 2d stations ui.(with accurate dials,devices...buttons...etc) . the one is not discarding the other.

and as the hard part is exactly the 3d stations ,you almost made it so i am really hoping that a polished 2d ui will not be a big deal for you.

as for the need of four people to play the game ,although is a very good idea and have very fan...etc , must NOT discard the option for a single player. As a single player , i must not have to run through stations all the time (this has no fan at all) and there the need of a very nice 2d ui to be applied.

Just my two cents , and wishing all the best to your efforts guys !
it is ,by far, the best i have seen after the sh2

Something different to SH3-4-5 where everything is done through icons would be a good alternative challenge and something totally different.
Peter

makman, good to see your comments, your 2 cents are always for $100 around here :salute:

I echo the appeal of these suggestions.
I voted "Other" ... for options ... and a win.

Gwen's idea of mapped input is great, because it is hidden and doesn't have to be used. Allowing players to customize the input (keystrokes, mouse input etc) is perfect.

If extra UI is implemented. Please please allow the player to turn it off in the options or with a toggle (keybinding) so we can enjoy the graphics as a realistic immersive experience. If a player chooses to run between stations we should let him/her.

I have no clue how much work it would be to code the suggestions of Chromatix and Maxim, but it sounds great. Having AI inside the sub in single player will help to create a realistic atmosphere. I don't mind being in an empty sub but the company would be nice. It will be nice provided I don't have to talk to them, puzzle over some interaction with them or watch a video clip repeatedly as the AI talk to me. The AI should be placeholders at a station. Communication from AI should be audio or text with the option to turn if off. It is very important to be able to turn off the AI communication. Hearing the same alert over and over can become very annoying.

My personal draw is what Makman describes. The ability to control a device accurately. Dangerous waters on steroids.

Choice and customization is built in to many very well made games. This creates appeal to a wider player base. To create a highly detailed game without extra control icons or teleporting may result in very immersive realistic environment that is desired by some hardcore elite fans. These fans will likely play the game for a very long time. Alternatively, creating a faster paced more convenient game with extra icons and or teleporting might encourage the more mainstream player to buy and play, but I suspect for a shorter period of time. Who knows. I don't mean to insult any hardcore sub sim fans as I'm sure there are many who will prefer the extra icons (and/or teleport) My point is; if you allow customization (and the option to turn off the extra icons or teleport) you will create a game that all can enjoy.

Hi!

For what it's worth, I think a single player interface is absolutely necessary since many of us won't be able to use multiplayer. I'm not sure about which positions a human player would find to be interesting - I suppose that would depend on whether the commander takes a hands-on role (e.g., using the UZO or periscopes personally) or a hands-off role (having the 1WO collect targeting data), but I assume the U-boat commander will be one of them.

If I assume that a single player is the U-boat commander, the commander (or other human officer) should be limited to things a commander would normally do, e.g., order the deck gun to be manned and direct which target the gun shoots at, but not aim the gun in first-person mode. With this in mind, I would provide the following commander's interfaces:

1. Tower watch (binoculars or Mk. I eyeball view)
2. Attack periscope
3. Search periscope
4. UZO
5. Hydrophone/sonar station
6. Radio operator / radar / radar warning indicator
7. Navigator (note the navigator was generally a warrant officer, not a commissioned officer)
8. First person Control Room ("Zentrale") view

I suggest that all positions be handled by AI crew unless a human player is present at that station. Whenever the "commander" gives an order, it goes to whichever entity (human or AI) is controlling it. It can be given via a 2D interface (e.g., icons) to humans or AI, or by voice to AI.

The question of whether you have voice actors echo the command for another human player to hear it, or whether you use voice recognition software for AI players, or both, is a cost trade-off for the developers.

Hope this helps! :)

As a note on the "tower watch" position, it is essential that the player is able to move around there (as is presently possible in Marulken) to get a good view in any direction. Conversely, the field of view afforded by the UZO should be realistically limited by its position.

This was quite a serious problem in SH4, with the fleet boats' periscope sheers blocking a wide arc of the starboard quarter, and no way to move past it except by personally manning an aft-facing gun. But raise the binoculars or man the TBT, and the sheers and bridge crew magically became invisible!

All the buttons!
 

All of the above.

Just put in all of the options so that it is easy for each player to change it.
Well, for non-PvP, at least. If you want, you can leave most of them not bound to anything by default.

For PvP, hmmm... maybe no single-player UI (U-boat Interface :rotfl2:) for PvP? Maybe that would lower the player-base too much, hmm... something to think about.

But yeah, I would err on the side of giving the end user more control over how to control things.

I would love a single player version of this title. I live in a very rural area and my Internet connection is crap, so single player is the only way to go for me. If they include single player, I'm a definite, immediate buyer.

As for the implementation, I'd like to see both options. I'd like icons so that if I don't want to move compartment to compartment in the heat of battle I can adjust speed, depth, etcetera with a click. But I'd also like the option to move from compartment to compartment when circumstances allow the time, greater immersion and all that.

I'm excited now. If they add single player, I'll definitely be sailing for the Swedish Navy.

:up: :salute:

An 'optional' single-player GUI should be an option when hosting a session (as kind of realism setting).
Maybe only accessible by the guy who make the host(= as Skipper).

But these 'Shortcuts' should not cover all that stuff we are used by former titles , like

* reading the Map or plotting a course, while standing @ BFT9 in the coning tower in the north atlantic sea
* etc...

Just basic crew instructions like (full)port, (full)starboard,'full ahead'... also transmit observation to the TDC...
The balance should always reward multicrew-ships against single-player :salute:

-Feldpost

I have been thinking long about the single player interface . Well actually about 5 minutes .
In order of preference .
Dream single player interface No1 = Click on Crew avatar in the command room and request speed /depth /position etc . Go to the crew position and watch the crew carry out the command . Alternatively go there myself and carry out the command myself .
Dream single player interface No2 = Click on Crew avatar in the command room and request speed /depth /position etc . Alternatively go there myself and carry out the command myself .
Dream single player interface No3 = Click on a GUI to request speed /depth /position etc . Alternatively go there myself and carry out the command myself .

5 minutes of your thinking is actually very productive, sober. :up:

We have been discussing how to implement the single player/2/3 player interface for the game. We want to ensure that a single player can manage the boat without overly disruptive changes or shifting. I think we have come to some really good decisions about this. Thanks for the input, it has been helpful. :salute:

Found this in an old subsim archive .
Very interesting point of view .
''
karamazovnew
08-31-2009, 04:58 PM
I don't want to do manual targeting, the Captain did NOT do this. Oh really?
Let me "quote" the bible of subsimming (for me), Das Boot. In one attack the Captain shoots torpedoes at a DD and misses. In the next Attack the Second Officer conducts the attack on a convoy and hits with 4 out of 4 torpedoes, sinking 3 ships. ALL the captain did was choose a surface attack and mark the 3 targets. The point is, the Captain could do it manually, but he didn't have to.
Being able to click any switch, use any dial (not by clicking on it, if you don't mind, but by dragging a knob) and sit at any station is an important aspect of SH. But having an inteligent crew that you can rely on (regardless of difficulty options) for full navigation/detection/attacks is indeed a must. As we've seen, the main aspect of SH5 is the sub's crew. My only fear is dumbing down the "hands-on" aspect of the game.
So my only wish (apart from all the rest here, ofc) for SH5 is to create immersion by first creating neccesity. I'd like it to be very hard and complex, but also automatised to the players's degree of lazyness, through an inteligent and dynamic crew. That's the point of having a crew in the first place, isn't it?''

Crew Automation
Why make hundreds of crew animations when I can make them while playing the game .
Don't even know if this is possible in a pc game .
What if I can click some sort of teaching mode .
The game records what I do in first person mode and then I can give that exact sequence to an AI crew member .
This is all done in game while playing the campaign .
The game logs what actions I do in the teaching mode and then I can give those actions in that time frame to a crew member . The crew member will do exactly what I just did in the teaching mode .
I am not sure how the hands on actions of the crew would work . If crew are using the rudder wheel and I wanted to use it would I just click on it . (this part is a bit dodgy)
This is how it should work .
Click on a crew member I would like to train .
Name the crew action such as (Raise dive planes) .
Start the training sequence .
I would do all the actions .
Stop the training sequence .
Those actions are given to the crew member that I choose .
The crew member would then just repeat everything I just did when I was in teaching mode when I give the order .
Obviously the dials/levers/switches movement are included in the training sequence if they are used .
Obviously the trained crew member would walk or run to the spot I went to depending on weather I walk or run in training mode .
While in training mode , wherever the curser point is would be where the crew hand is (only when in hand pointer mode) .
I could assign different actions to crew by dragging action names that I type into a box to the crew member .
I could click on first officer and there would be a list of actions that he has .
Silent running for example . The silent running is linked to other orders which in turn are linked to other crew members which do there sequence for silent running .
I would need to be able to link and unlink actions while playing the game .
Basically at the start of a campaign the crew is idle at a station / bunk etc .
Just say I order emergency dive . I click on the first officer and from a list of orders that I have made by giving him , I then click on emergency dive and he runs to a certain spot . Because I have linked other crew to this action they also do there actions . Just like SH5 crew animations except I can generate the crew actions in teaching mode while playing the game .
The game could ship with a basic crew ability for novices or you could start with a crew that is not trained at all . I would have complete control of my crew and what they do because I have shown them exactly what to do in training mode .
Surfacing the boat for example . I click on the Chief to surface the boat . I have trained the navigator to do a depth check because I did it myself in training mode using the fully functional depth thingy . Watch crew are trained to climb up the ladder and go to the watch position because I went there earlier in the training mode . Earlier I trained the crew by linking the watch crew to the Chief and the surface order . I clicked on the crew member earlier and linked the order WATCH to that crew member . The crew could spot something on the horizon and start off with (something spotted on the horizon) (text to speech software) and then I could look at it myself and type ship so that next time he spots something similar he calls out ship . When it gets closer and I can recognise the ship I can type in what type and next time he can call out destroyer spotted . Same for friendly or enemy etc . If I havnt recognised what type of plane or ship or enemy or friendly at the beginning of the campaign then crew cannot recognise what type either . Alternatively you could have a fully trained crew package at the start of the campaign or anything in between .
Lets say I have trained the watch crew to spot enemy aircraft . When the watch crew says enemy aircraft spotted I could have other crew get the sub ready for a crash dive manoeuvre , depth sounding , engine control , crew movements etc etc .
Alternatively you could have a fully trained crew or anything in between at the start . You could have different routines for different parts of the campaign . A plane appears and because I have linked ALARM order to the watch officer , when I click on the watch officer ALARM order the men run down the ladder and assume there positions that I trained them to do earlier . There could be certain routines shipped with the game (ALARM) routine for example . I know the sub will dive because the dive manoeuvre i also trained the dive manoeuvre to the appropriate crew and linked it to the watch officer ALARM order while in training mode . The sub shouldn't dive while crew or myself on deck .
Lets say I enter an area with heavy plane cover . I could increse the number of crew who are WATCH PLANES by clicking on the watch officer and clicking on WATCH PLANES order . This would bring more crew up to the conning tower . I would have to be careful while training that I have included them in the ALARM order so they don't get left on the deck and drown .
I could have different crew routines by clicking on lets say the navigator . While leaving a friendly port I could have the radio operator listen and report incoming messages or play the gramophone or use the radio etc . While in battle stations I have trained all the crew or just some of the crew to do certain tasks etc etc etc .

Each player could have there own Crew Animation package and upload it as a steam workshop content . EG: Sobers early war Type II crew (Mostly clowning around but getting the job done in the end) . Someone might think of a better way to utilise crew in different scenarios . Infinite number of crew combinations and actions . Crews easily setup to be used in multiplayer/single player modes . Individual player crews setup for there playing style . Variable number of crew from none to how ever many you want .
Can it be done and would people want it ?