TDC in Sh5
I was wondering what peoples oppinions are about what is more realistic in terms of manual TDC: As someone mentioned in another thread, SH5 is done on top of SH4. Now what I really wish for is to have the "set solution"-order from SH3 back. It was in my oppinion the most realistic way for firing torpedoes because I cant imagine U-Boat-Commander did all the calculations on his own, thats what the torpedo officer is for.
Unfortunately I was removed with SH4 and you only had the option of either "arcade-point-and-fire" oder doing everything manually. So please, Ubi, give us that one back. :03: |
Although I no longer use it in SHIII/ SH4,
"Set solution order" should be included, however in my opinion, the solution shouldn't be 100% perfect as it is in SHIII U-Boat-Commander didn't do all the calculations on his own, but he was in the end responsible for the final attack, it would be realistic to add mistakes in speed, AoB and range when ordering "set solution" |
I do believe you'll be amazed by what Dan has prepared for you in the terms of TDC and manual targeting :arrgh!:. I would have never thought of the idea he came up with.
We'll be previewing it at the Subsim meeting. |
you guys really make me wish I could join you at the meet!
as well as jealous:stare: |
There certainly was some short comings in the SH4 TDC...one being the ability to hold the solution, but de-couple the bearing so you could "aim" at specific parts of the ship.
We should have been able to gather all the required data and then place the pip where we wanted, "mark" the bearing and fire. Then move the pip at the desired aim point on the ship(bow, stacks, bridge, stern, etc), "re-mark" and fire again using the previous target data, but with the new bearing. It allowed Skippers like O'Kane(if I remember correctly) to target the center/stacks of the ship, fire, then quickly re-set for the bow and fire, stern and fire, etc. The manual TDC features is what bugged me the most about SH4...though there were others at the top of my list too. |
I agree with everything Nattydread says.
I think the crew should be able to set the solution if the player wishes. However the accuracy should be relative to the officers skill. There should be an option for this to start poor and improve with the players input to that role. Manual targeting therefore improves the role of the weapons officer. This option encourages interaction with and developement of the various crew skills. |
Well I myself sent to Dan a document with information and pictures about the historic periscopes, hope he can make some use of it. It is of great imporantce for targetting and determining the solution.
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The TDC calculated all the rest.:up: |
Don't forget the TDC was a fleet boat device for storing and automatically updating target information by using your boat's movements and the predicted movements of the target, I don't know that the U-boats had an equivalent.
I understand you may all be using it to represent the targeting mechanism of whichever boat you are on though. |
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@ the debate in general So in my readings, I came across suggestions that the TDC (Vorhaltsrechner) was able to account for changes in U-boat's own course. You will all note that this was not a feature of the TDC as rendered in SH3 and SH4UBM, in which changes of U-boat own course messed up the TDC solution. Hitman at one time confirmed with me that this is correct, that the TDC (VHR) could account for changes in U-boat heading, although i never saw any unequivical evidence to support it. If this is true, it would be great if this feature were implemented in the SH5 TDC model |
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I have a preety good idea how to implement them (if not already implemented :rotfl:). - the periscope station (the 3d rotating one with the small seat) had the knobs/switches for rotating the scope, using color filters, zoom level, an aob/range finder wheel. - the periscope bearing was only available at the top of the scope, on the static part. It was luminated by a small light bulb that rotated with the scope (easy to see in Das Boot, when the captain repeteadly looks up to see the bearing). - the periscope did not have buttons for firing torpedoes (i think). Since the periscope seat camera doesn't need to move too much with the boat, some clever use of the mouse can give us quick strafing for access to all of these and it can be stable enough to manipulate the 3d aob wheel with the mouse (actually it only had a knob for setting the height/length). Hmm.. maybe mousewheel over knobs and dials as in Flight Simulator? The "2d" perisope view should be completely clear, and no, they didn't have periscope lines which changed color during the night. The only thing you would be able to show/hide from here are the orders to the WO and to the helm. Since the man at the scope did not have access to the TDC, the notepad stylised method of entering data was not bad. It should be optional, allowing you to see the actual dials and manipulate them (such as in sh4 and ACM mod for sh3). But the stylised version would be better for immersion. It should consist of all necesary inputs (tdc and torpedo settings). It should have both stylised dials for quick input, but also text boxes for precise input. Each time you use them, since they don't need to act as temporary solutions, they would be sent imediately to the WO (and thus the TDC). The aob wheel on the scope might've been actually linked to the TDC itself, but I doubt it, since it had to be reseted for normal viewing. Now the AOB dial was in fact linked to both the Bearing dial AND the compass. Changing your course also changed the AOB. The link to the bearing (the auto tdc update feature) was indeed optional. But the link to the compass was not optional. If you say a target at 45 degrees bearing wich had a 45 degrees AOB to you, and then you changed the course by 45 degrees into it, at the end of the turn, you would not have a 0 AOB at 0 bearing on the dial (As you do in SH3 and SH4), you'd have a 45 AOB at 0 bearing as it should be. This greatly simplified using the TDC for getting very quick intercept courses (described here ). So the crew had quite a lot to do in fact: - you could ask him for specific intercept courses, (since you shouldn't see the TDC dials updating in the notepad page), "Give me a bearing for 82 port intercept"... "Yes sir.... bearing 219 should be ok". - you could give him timed bearing/range data when visibility is poor and he would pass that info to the Nav Officer for plotting (as a double check) - the Nav Officer would calculate the torpedo travel time after firing. - the order to fire a torpedo would take about 2 seconds to arrive at the torpedo room (the only place which actually had a button/lever to fire the damn things). But that was already implemented, i think. - you could order the second officer to look thorugh the OBS scope (or your scope) for ship recognition. - Actually, the officer should be able to take your place at the scope and conduct the same procedure as you. In the meantime you could stay at the TDC station (releaving the WO) and he would give the data to you :haha:. - Of course, both SO and Nav Officer's experience would greatly impact all their calculations. This would be as realisticaly as it is humanly possible, And it would allow you to sit back and enjoy the view while the others work, even at 100% difficulty. |
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I think the obs scope was sufficiently good at light gathering to permit stellar navigation. Quote:
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this would really help, as it is important and ought to be implemented if demonstrably true best wishes joe |
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First of all, I would like to put well clear that I do not by any means claim to have the absolute knowledge about U-Boat optical systems. Far from that, there are way many things I still don't know, rather than know. However, I have been for several years already doing a research as in-depth as possible on the subject, and that includes not just the internet, but also exchange of e-mails with the Zeiss corporation historic archives, some questions to one of the few remaining U-Boat commanders (Through a guy who knows and meets him regularly) and a lot more.
That said, I want to start with the page you took that info from. It's this one, which I have seen already linked a few times, and which is in fact plaged with errors :down: For starters, the zoom is stated as 1x/6x, which is not correct, as it was 1,5x and 6x. Now, according to what I know, I will make some comments (And keep in mind I could be wrong) Quote:
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Finally, here is an excellent link with information (In german) about the periscopes: http://www.uboot995.homepage.t-onlin...__zubehor.html |
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So right, I was dissapointed that I couldnt "build" a solution with the TDC by plugging in data I had and observing & updating them over time. I also hated how few and little fidelity the plotting tools and time stamps were on the map for plotting targets solution. Ever try plotting a target's course using range data, bearings and time on the SH4 map?...it never gave a useable result...at least not for me. I think Ive even used passive and active sonar bearings and ranges...still no useable results...and this was on non-zigging targets. I'd like to make use of all tools while stalking targets...for the love of crickets, there is certainly enough time to do it while running an end around. |
Awesome reply Hitman. :up: Wish I knew german but the pics speak for themselves. I had no idea they could also move the lenses and show the bearing inside the viewfinder. German tech is simply awesome. I have already corrected my error about the line paint. Too bad they only used it for the main reticle, i guess I wasn't compeltely in error. But then again, the AOBF makes the numbered marks redundant.
But come on you have to agree that being able to see through the Obs Scope before it comes out of the floor is not realistic :haha:. I guess we just gave the devs another tree of upgrades to implement AND the need to differenciate between the OP and AP head detectability :salute: I just love upgrades. So I take it you don't dislike my overall idea of how the 2d/3d interface should look like? |
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