Ok, I get your basic idea. May be able to get it to work. Thanks for the info.

Peabody

This place has good stuff, and it's pretty cheap ($5 per) in most cases:

IJN sub operations dec41-apr42:
http://www.milspecmanuals.com/?page=...e721b84d355045

http://www.milspecmanuals.com/?page=...e721b84d355045

Apr-Aug42:
http://www.milspecmanuals.com/?page=...e721b84d355045

Aug42-Mar43:
http://www.milspecmanuals.com/?page=...e721b84d355045

Mar-Nov43:
http://www.milspecmanuals.com/?page=...e721b84d355045

Nov43-Mar44:
http://www.milspecmanuals.com/?page=...e721b84d355045

Mar44-Aug45:
http://www.milspecmanuals.com/?page=...e721b84d355045

So $35 for the whole war on CD.

Keltos & Peabody: if you want these, please PM and allow me to do a donation. :salute:

WOW !!!:salute:

keltos

I'll buy one if you like, then let you see if the information is worthwhile for ya.

Which one most strikes your fancy?

I've already asked milspecmanuals.com for an excerpt/sample and waiting for a reply. :D


Excellent links btw.! :up:

No no! The "Wow" is mine! And it's aimed at the great work of your guys! http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...es/bowdown.gif

Reply received from MilSpec! Wow! That was fast! http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/biggrin3.gif

Uploaded the excerpt (index of papers) here: http://www.mediafire.com/file/ua2zjq...March 1944.pdf

Reading it, I remember a documentary DVD with interviews made by US Intelligence to Japanese officers... perhaps "Submarine Warfare"... or the DVD from the US Special Bonus Edition of SH IV...? :hmmm:


Btw. after reading the description on MilSpec, I first was sceptical about the "...study has not been checked, has not been edited, and may or may not be accurate or understandable", but now I'm leaning more against the theory that it's more or less raw interview material, in which nobody had the time - or interest in - getting properly crossreferenced. But I'm sure it's gold, we have here, straight from the hors' mouth... and am willing to take the risk and order the goods unseen. :up:

http://a.imageshack.us/img29/605/exerp.jpg



http://a.imageshack.us/img64/605/exerp.jpg


Looks genuine enough ! made in 1951

but such data is the Holy Grail of IJN operations in WWII !


keltos

hi.

if you're interested, i have all the relevant jap monographs about sub ops and then some. ordered from milspecmanuals myself. i'll make them available to you for free.

monographs:

95, 102, 110, 111, 163, 171, 184 - Submarine Operations
102 - as part of "Pacific War Papers, Japanese Documents of WW2"

116-5 organisation of the submarine forces
116-9 summary of submarine losses
118 operational history of japanese naval communications
125 surface escorting operations
145, 149, 160, 169, 172, 174 outline of naval armament and preparations for war
161 gilbert islands operations - surface, but might help
83 okinawa operations - idem
88 aleutian operations - same
90 A-Go operation
91 supplement to 90 - various tabulations and appendixes
93 midway operations
98,99 southeast area naval operations

also:

US strategic bomb survey - interrogations of japanese naval personnel
plus plenty of books on various subjects adjacent or congruent with the pacific submarine war.

all the files are available on an internet accessible NAS; as i said i'll provide access for free, PM for details.
of course, if you're feeling generous and have some electronic instances of ONI 208 J and/or other recognition manuals, i won't say no.

PS: since peabody mentioned this: as works of an US government employee, all these documents are in public domain. with the exception of some sub ops monographs all are available for free on sites such as ibiblio, wikisource, project gutenberg. there is no piracy involved. and no, mil spec manuals cannot claim rights for the electronic version; they can charge a "copying and distribution fee" but cannot prevent you from giving away your copy for free or receiving a copy from someone for free since they can't claim any rights over it as all they did was make an (electronic) copy of the original public documents; it is not a derived work.

"The court case Bridgeman Art Library Ltd. v. Corel Corporation established that exact photographic copies of public domain works of art are not copyrightable under United States law."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright...Supp2d_191.htm

oh, IANAL.

I tried to keep this in a PM but since you made it public I will respond.

I am sorry you took offence to my trying to offer my advice. But you are incorrect since they did NOT just "make a copy". They converted the originals into .pdf files and they are not just "copies". My only concern was that Subsim may view distributing purchased items as improper. I am sorry I tried to help.
Yes, you may redistribute the item if you received them as copies from the Federal Government, you did not. And you also even stated "with the exception of some sub ops monographs" which were the ones that were listed above.
And I thank you for your offer.
I will no longer offer any advise since you seem to be upset over this. It was not my intention.

Peabody

i did not take offence and i can't see how you arrived at that conclusion.

yes they did and they are exactly that, copies. as i said before, i am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice but please read the provided court decision. in short, they would have to ADD something ORIGINAL to the already existing public domain work for it to be a DERIVED WORK and thus benefit from copyright protection. 1:1 copy even from one media to another does not qualify. it's all there in plain language (well, almost):



subsim can view distributing purchased items as improper but that does not make distributing purchased items improper or illegal which i think is what you imply.

see the previous discussion about derived works.

i know for certain that ibiblio's monographs were also purchased from milspec manuals (they were the people who pointed me to them) and they are up on their website for free access. the reason they don't have the submarine monographs is lack of interest from their typical audience.

you're welcome.

again, i don't understand how did you come to this conclusion. disagreement does not imply animosity or enmity, at least not for me.

Photographs have very little to do with my comments to you in PM. I am very familiar with rights as I have done photography since 1969.

I am not implying anything is illegal, only if subsim decides it is improper or illegal, you can be banned. That is why I went to a PM to indicate the possibility, and you make your own decision what you feel is right. I felt the issue was over but you brought it back to the forum.
I would not want to see someone offer us some info and then get banned for doing it. It does not matter what is legal, it matters how subsim interprets it. And I don't think we need to quote legal cases that have nothing to do with the item, since subsim is not going to take you to court.

My only intent was to point out that you purchased an item that a company is selling, you are "assuming" it is public domain (which is not necessarily the same as 'Freedom of Information') and you are offering to give away copies. Whether I am right or wrong, my intent was to inform you that not everyone will view this in the same light you do. I did not say anything was illegal nor did I say you were doing anything wrong. And finding it on another web site still does not make it "public domain".

A simple little PM has now turned into a court case, so I will end my discussion here.

Peabody

I will then allow myself to quote without permission since he implies he tried to register.
But I asked Bobby how things stand in relation to copyright and directed him to this thread.


Here's the reply I got, Bobby from MilSpecManuals:

"Hi Jan

Thanks for the heads up. I would respond on the forum direct but they will not let me register with my "gmail.com" address...their loss!

To answer his post...basically he is right. As these publications are in the "public domain" they are for use by all. If he feels that he needs to make them available for all to use for free that is his right....but I ask where was he while I personally digitized all the reels of microfilm by hand. I only charge enough per reel to stay in business! Not like some of the companies that make different microfilm versions of various sets of available for $1000.00 or more. I have a small business and I try hard to provide value for my customers buck. While the Japanese Monograph set doesn't lend itself to editing for clarity there are some sets that I end up go through page by page to remove some of the crud that is sometimes on microfilmed copies. Please see the attachment. And as far as getting the Japanese Monographs from ibiblio, they get where copies from me and after I asked them not to post the copies they were nice enough to pull the documents.

I am a former USAF EOD Tech on disability from working on a civilian range clearance operation and my little business helps "keep me out of the bars" so all I ask of any of the people that buy from me is to be fair.

Sorry that I didn't answer sooner but we have been in the middle of a thunderstorm so our power was been out.

Thanks"

I'll leave my personal opinion out of this... :nope:

Jan

i see. so, if i would've bought copies from one of those $1000 per microfilm outfits and made those available, that would have been ok?

i guess i have to take offense now. all i want is to help and i end up being lectured about morals and what is fair. thank you very much.

and if we are bringing personal financial issues into this, FYI, i live in eastern europe and have to get by (me + family) on about $550/month with the latest gov. salaries -25% cuts and all. that is if i don't get laid off altogether. so yea, mr kyster, keep your opinions to yourself.

thanks for sharing all these thoughts not related to the thread here, but now let's get back into focus :

this is the japanese campaign WIP thread after all.

regards

keltos