Of course, if I was personally involved I can't say I'd be able to follow my own principles. But then my judgement would be clouded precicely because I was personally involved.

When it comes to material possessions I'm happy so long as I get my stuff back, undamaged. Or if insurance will cover the damages. If someone stole my car I highly doubt it would be because he had it in for me personally.

I disagree. That is a typical elitist attitude. Maybe some people need to be led but not everyone, not even the majority of people.

When it comes to matters in which people are either uninterested or uneducated, they are perfectly willing to sit back and let more qualified people make the decisions. Most people are not sufficciently interested or schooled in politics to think for themselves, and so they need - even want - to be led.

Well, that's my take on it anyway.

I wasn't impressed with how this thread started, but reading through all five pages was good stuff. Kudos to Kissaki and Dead Man's Hand for agreeing to disagree without resorting to immature internet threats. Man, I'd like to add more, but I have to go...

The SS (separated from the Holocaust thread)
 

I still have to react to Dead Mans Hand remarks about the SS and his political opinion.
I'll split my answer in three seperate parts.
First, I'm gonna make some remarks about the SS, it might be my final ones since I have read enough about the subject, which does not even trigger my historic curiosity.
In part two I'll answer Dead Mans Hand remarks and i'll try to clear some misunderstandings, if that's what they are.
My third and final postinmg will be a theoretical analyzis of the philosophical backgrounds of early 20th century fascism/national-socialism, how it influenced Hitler and - in my view - even today influences people like Dead Mans Hand. It will make clear the fundamental difference between his and my opinion.

Here we go with part 1, the SS.

I won't repeat all that I have already said about the SS and it's organisation. I stand for what I've written and have not found any criticism that forces me to change my basic point of view on the subject.

I want to make clear that the SS was condemmed during the Nürnburg War Trials as a criminal organisation, rightfully in my opinion. Even during war moral and legal rules are appliccable, most important of them the Geneva Convention, of which Nazi-Germany was a participant. The SS violated all these rules as a matter of course.
While this implies that all who joined - basically all volunteers - made a wrong choise in their lives, it does not mean that there are no shades of grey within the black. I certainly don't want to generalize each and every SS soldier. However, they all shared a single flaw, a completely uncritical devotion to Adolf Hitler...
I have described some humane and honorable behaviour - as well as the opposite - in my thread:"Meine Ehre heisst Treue" (My honor is Loyalty).
Link: http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=44884
However, that behaviour made the SS men concerned break their code of honor towards their commander and ultimately Hitler.
Much of the responsability for the typical SS behaviour lies in my opinion with the Officers and NCO's, final responsability with Himmler, the system that produced the concept of an unscrupulous political army with poor principles; the National Socialist party and its founder and leader, Adolf Hitler.
So I see a shared responsability for the atrocities. The mere order from an officer is never an excuse to perform acts against any code of human decency. The argument "Befehl ist Befehl" does not excuse the criminal, nor the crime.

I found a good characterisation of the Waffen-SS by Max Hastings. I will give you a lengthy quote, because it also answers or clarifies some of the misunderstandings that have been raised about the 'Waffen-SS' having supposedly higher standards of honor and moral then the 'SS-Einsatzgruppen', the professional fighting abilities of the 'Waffen-SS' and the intellectual level of its commanders in the high echelons, all points I have discussed with Dead Mans Hand.

Max Hastings: "Das Reich" ISBN 0-330-48389-7

I wanted to do justice to the SS by giving this lengthy quote by a great historian, and at the same time I wanted to burst Dead Mans Hand's bubble that these men were Super Soldiers without par, that were not involved in killing Jews and innocents, and were led by the most brilliant commanders that ever walked the face of earth...

As a rude general rule I dare to state that a good SS soldier makes for a poor human being...
They voluntarily chose the wrong side... fought for a wicked system... and lost the war.
Not a record to be proud of!

Great post Abraham, excellent quote by Max Hastgins, read his book a long time ago...should have argued in your style rather than fly off the handle. Course I find this subject very emotional so have to avoid taking part in these threads.

Thanks joea, is there any special reason why you find the subject too emotional, and if so, can you share it with us?
I know some other regular participants are following the thread but abstain from participating for personal reasons...

@August
Actually my good sir, if I were in the American army and I wanted to accomplish the same thing I would make sure no witnesses were left and no reporters were around, or I would have a special force/black op unit move in, if you think this doesn't happen you're dillusional. An individual I worked under was ex-Coast Guard and durring a drug sting in South America shot a prisoner - to make a long story short durring recon this man was witnessed raping a 10yr old girl. The CO told him "I saw nothing" and all that happend to him was he spent 6mo in the psychward - he had the papers to prove that much of it atleast.

Also, as is the habit with large countries that signed the Geneva Con. America has a habit of letting smaller allies take key areas with American support - however since they are not obligated to take prisoners and are allowed to torture the hell out of them, we're "innocent" of any war crimes commited.

Remember: It's only a crime if someone's left to be the victim. If you think we don't kill when it suits us - well I guess you havent heard of the CIA - Remember, it's not what you know it's what you can prove.


*NOTE: I am not saying this is a "bad" thing.
**NOTE: To relieve an officer of command, you'd best have support from the rest of the platoon (which is to say if they wish to avenge a fallen brother and you say "No! I'll have you all courtmartialed!" -what stops the unit from shooting you and filling a report of you going crazy and pulling a gun on your CO??
***NOTE: It was previously mentioned that the Geneva Con. put guildlines on retribution attacks.
****Final Note: If you think killing civies is "wrong" then you'd be SOL in many countries, in Mogadeshu unarmed women and children were being used to ferry ammunition to Samali strong points - in short they had to die for our men's survival. If you've watched Full Metal Jacket "How do you shoot women and children?" "Easy, you just don't lead them as far."

@Kissaki
Well I'll agree with your ideal for minor crimes, if you mean by not having malacious intent to convey accidental crimes, sure - I think manslaughter is bull**** too.

As for rehabilitating child molestors and other sex offenders, they deserve death for what they do. Mercy and/or tolerance is not my strong point. Do some research into what happens to these children sometimes, what these devils do, and I think you will change your opinion too.

As for lower crime rates under Draconian law, in the Middle Ages you were facing a far less efficent government with (actually equivalent taxes as are currently in America if not worse) taxation and poverty through the roof, they stole to eat. I would site many areas in the middle east, cut someone's hands off for theft and they will not repeat the offense. That and law abidding citizens tired of being terrorized will support it vehmently. Imagine if KKK memebers where sumarly shoot for the **** they pull? Or if those involved in the riot in Toledeo, Ohio were executed for what they did? Those who live in fear of the trash that breaks laws will gladly accept the government's unflinching fist.

As for criminals being treated as human, Joseph Stalin's qoute of "No man, no problem" fits that well.

I'll agree that is a horrible thing to kill an innocent man - and even worse to destroy his reputation. Capital punishment should never be taken lightly, but, when guilt is undeniable (DNA evidence, computer files, anything concrete) the death penalty should be applied without hesitation.

As for the scenario of a hell on earth for prisoners, in a civilized society this area would be a complete mystery to those outside the walls. It is not to be watched, death is nothing to celebrate. It is however a necessity in life. If your punishment for these animals is to be cast into abit with their brethern than I think many would hesitate before commiting any sort of crime. If they decided to make something of it, to reform themselves, they could live in a nice area - but still cut out of society. Those tossed in that did not comply would be dealt with eternaly and those who tried to escape would - well, I think you can guess.

As for rape:
Yeah, I can believe that she didn't think that was right. My girlfriend was molested at 9yrs of age by two of her friends brothers at a sleep over - she will not let me know who and I have since come to understand that standpoint, but I do not believe forgivness removes consequences. Justice is blind, it should not have emotion (this is why I do not view retribution as a crime in war, to do so I would have to have sympathy for those who harbor soldiers.) So forgiveness, can let the victim walk away, he/she need never deal with it again. However that offender is a risk to others, how many child rapists are repeat offenders? How many eventually kill a child?? They have no right to life.

I'll be honest with you, while I understand your point of view and respect it, it could in some scenarios be considered "fighting words" in my area. I have seen to much of this - and when I refer to theft of innocence, I do not mean any shame born by the victim. By innocence (in this case) I refer to an individuals ability to be blind to the truths of our world, in essence? Innocence is lost when one learns to hate, when they become part of the darkness of our world. This is done in many fasions, but none more brutal than rape - especially from a Christian view. I've got far to many examples to want to go to far (my posts are long enough :huh:) into detail. But I have seen how innocence is stolen from the victim. I have seen how it reverberates through their lives - some become exceedingly sexually active to try and say they have control, or that they are wanted, some drink like fish, and some loose abit of their capacity for trust - and through that their capacity for love. No sir, rapists are below any other form of criminal and a life of shame that grants them the oppurunity to offend again.
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

*Note those: rape within families should always carry a death sentance IMHO and as for "forever disgraced" leave their filthy carcass in a birdcage, eh?

@Abraham
Ever hear the quote about assumptions? I could claim your arguement is based on a deep seated fear, expressed by hatred, for Germans. But I would not wish to put words in your mouth.

As for Mr. Hastings, I read a few of his articles and his anti-Israeli-pro-Palestinian bend is disgusting btw. But as for the example of the 50 Jews in that article, the account I read was that took place durring a battle, does that excuse it? Nope. But that applies different rules and if they resisted then they may have provoked it. Dislike my opinion as much as you'd like. But you have yet to burst my bubble.

I never said the SS had the most brilliant commanders in the world, I cited General Heinz Guderian and Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, but even this article lauded their troops up to the regimental level, otherwise how do you explain the length of time it took to beat this, what you apparently consider to be, rabble?

For a soldier, there is no higher epitah.

Also, to keep this short, occupied countries lost their individual wars with Germany - they were freed after being recaptured by Americans. The only army which was never either pushed half way across Russia or into the sea by the German armies was, yep, America, the ships that kept Britain alive were American. So really, unless you want to insult the troops of all the nations that Germany kicked the **** out of, I suggest you rethink your "they were in reality horrible soldiers" approach. Because that means those they defeated were even worse (And yes, that is Yank arrogance.)

Also, I never said they were super soldiers, they were feared for their battle prowess, brutality, and fanacticism. You can argue equipment, but there were SS Tiger II's captured with over 70+ shell impacts on them - that is why it took on average five Allied tanks to take out just one German. Better equipment and beyond a doubt in the beginning years of the war vastly superior training and thus more competent men. Unless you find American forces training in trucks with "TANK" painted on them to be adequate or the Russian "Here's a rifle, fight or die" method of training to be sufficient. The Rangers and 81st Airborn were two excellent units, as well as the British Commandos, however the Commandos never entered the field of battle so I do not consider them to be infantry in anyway, so while they were top notch - they are not comperable.

**Also: Apparently this man ain't all "that" the Enstatz-gruppen were under command of the Gestapo, not the SS.
***Side note: Yeah about competent military leaders, do you wish to argue that Market Garden (which was tactically an utter failure) was a stroke of genious by Montgomery? I mean seriously, that was not near the level of airborne deployment that the German's used in the beginning of the war. Though they did have this funny thing about not dropping unarmed men on armored divisions... silly Germans :doh:

The current Pope was a member of the Hitlerjugend, forced by his parents. So your volunteer bit is not 100% true in all cases(keep in mind, they voted in Iraq before this, but if you voted the wrong way you were shot.) and the term wrong side is objective - as well as it simply implies that they lost. Had they won and you were tought history through their eyes you'd hail them as hero's.

@Joea
Too emotional? Out of curiosity I would ask howso, but out of respect if you wish to keep that to yourself that's fine. However I will say that emotion only weakens rationale debate. Passion can fuel a revolution. I'm not trying to sound like a prick, eh? This forum allows for no tone, but if something does invoke emotional response, take a moment to control your impulses - but let the passion of the emotion resonate through you an your arguement. I realize you probably could careless for my opinion, but I am truly sorry if I've deeply offended you. Please realize my arguements here have absolutely no political conentation to them. I am in no way anti-semitic and have repeatedly denounced the killing of innocents, but I do dispute the meaning of innocent.

Well i think you're delusional as well so i guess that makes us even.

Believing that an American Army General would deliberately order the massacre of an entire village of people in retribution for the ambush of a platoon is only slightly less insane than believing such an atrocity could ever be covered up, regardless of the presence of reporters.

A US Army division has about 10,000 troops in it, all with families (and Congressmen) back home, and raised with a free mans intolerance for lies and evil doers. They all have web access and a fair amount of them even have personal blog pages. Your crimes would be trumpeted on the nightly news before your victims went into rigor.

Sir, I was in a US Army Special Forces Group for three years. Your claim that my comrades in arms would ever be a willing part of such an atrocity is a completely unsupportable insult to people whose boots you aren't fit to shine. Your comic book imagination only shows how very little you know about the Spec ops community or the fine Americans who serve in it.

As for your boss and his tales of Coast Guard derring do, well i think your story is just that, a story. I believe you are making it up to embellish your argument which only illustrates it's weakness.

So prove me wrong or admit it for the fabrication it is.

The SS (separated from the Holocaust thread)
 

You're mistaken and I'll show that to you tomorrow. Both your and mine thinking stands in an European philosophal and political tradition. I'll point out the roots of Fascism/National-Socialism and I see clear traces of those roots in your posting. Honestly, I won't put words in your mouth; just wait and see.

I have read a lot from Hastings, especially his excellent and balanced book "Overlord". You'll have to come with good sources to discredit his account, but you come with none. "It happened during battle", "They resisted being shot so we had to shoot them", "We had to shoot them because they ran away", who has not heard the lies of frightened SS-men when they faced war crime tribunals. Don't be so naive, Dead Mans Hand!

Perhaps you are a True Believer than. Fine with me. I may not have burst your bubble but I burst your glorification of the Waffen-SS on this forum. I find that much more important...

I did not say "rabble" and you did indeed say that the SS had the most brilliant cammanders:It just is not true. Not true, you get it!
Of course SS units, especially the elite Panzerdivisionen, were feared. Why, of course because of their fanatism, but also because of more mundain reasons: their establishment was almost double (ca. 20.000 men) of that of the average Wehrmacht Panzer Division and their material was the most modern.
The elite SS-Panzerdivisionen can be compared with the US 1st and 2nd Armoured Divisions, also far above average strengh, feared by the Germans and unstoppable in the field.

Oh yes, how about qualities like honorable, intelligent, smart, efficient. How about succesful!
I see you lack factual historic knowledge. Too bad...
Let me just say that the US Army was at the beginning of the war smaller than the army of Poland. Five years later it was fighting a succesful war at two fronts (by the way, who promised to do so but failed?) and was the most powerful fighting force in the world.
I don't know exactly what you mean, but the Gestapo was part of the SS. It was the secret Nazi police and commanded by - ultimately - Himmler, just as the SS-Einzatsgruppen (Dead squads),
Again you are completely missing the point. Membership of the Hitlerjugend was more or less compulsary but had nothing to do with the SS. Nor has the Pope. The only connection is that out of the huge Hitlerjugend an SS Division was drawn. Membership of the SS was voluntary ( I say this for the fourth time on this thread) and I have never seen records of anybody being shot for not joining.

Sorry guys been away.

Why my reaction? With all due respect to Dead Man I don't need to say it, again, it should be fairly logical. None of my family were directly killed in WWII though they could have been, I'll leave it at that. Thanks to Abraham and August for showing me how to argue.

@August

*sigh* Army General? No, couldn't do it - too many eyes. NCO? Platoon level? Hell yes it could happen. Want to talk about Vietnam???

Believing that we've never commited attrocites, such as the destruction of a village, is laughable at best. Racism and hate run rather strong in this country and our soldiers are no better than anyothers when it comes to dealing with the stress of war. But believe what you will.

Also, since you did not name your special forces unit, I assume you are ashamed of it. Even Delta reference their previous unit (Ranger, SEAL, Green Berett, etc) you however just went with "Oh I was in the Special Forces" I'd like to say a friend of mine was an infantry men, thus a specialist. However, that does not count as special forces.

Oh and let me guess, you're going to tell me the first hand accounts of rapes and trains ran on enlisted and civilian women on base State side is crap too? I mean, honestly after speaking with infantry men, I would never allow any daughter of mine to go anywhere near an enlisted man. If you argue this sir, I will conclude you did not serve in the Navy nor have you ever heard about what the whores that enlist in that do for money on those ships either.

As for you believing my accounts, I could careless. All I have to say is that I have the utmost respect for any soldier, I would ask you to have the decency to conceed the point our's, like all others, is far from lilly white rather than drag in information that I feel is less than honorable.

As for a comic book imagination, thank you sir but the veterans I know seem to differ very much from yourself. Perhaps you served state side? All Special Ops groups have people that just don't make it and do desk work. Is that what you did? Otherwise, since you're throwing around this "prove me wrong" crap, fine. Toss at branch and unit designation Mr. Special Forces. PVSFC doesn't count btw. I also find it highly amusing that this only came out now.

Oh and this is not entirely damning, but serves a good enough point (which is we train and train with war criminals in several nations.)
http://leahy.senate.gov/press/199806/980604.html

@Abe

Firstly: About hastings, if you actually read the recent articles he's published against Israel in his paper, I think you might change opinion. I'm not so much attacking his historical accuracy as I am commenting that I find someone who would support Palestine to be rather... distasteful, as I am vehemently pro-Israel.

In a war zone, a prisoner is obligated to attempt to escape, however if that is seen as a risk (he who lives today fights tommorow) than I find it acceptable to shoot a prisoner. Do I find the locking of people in a church and burning it to the ground to be acceptable? Only in reprisal. Which in the given case cannot be truely proven. So it's up in the air. Again it comes to my definition of innocence. If a village has wholesale supported a terroristic organization of whatever allegiance it has populace has become combatents.

Also I'm not so much trying to glorify the Waffen-SS as vindicate those you would damn for the actions of the few. Also, you cannot (well ok you can, but I don't see how) argue that it was the finest fighting unit of it's time, until the American Rangers and Airborne showed up. Marines fought damn hard are beyond reproach, however they were in a different theatre against a less than comperable enemy.

Even your article praised the SS NCOs and Officers up to the divisional level. In combat, the division commander is not who is calling shots. The 2nd Armour was not unstopable, cite the battle of the bulge, also I find it important to note the lateness with which they entered the war and the increadible lack of effectivness when it came to the Sherman tank (outside of being a utility vehicle.)

As for ".. qualities like honorable, intelligent, smart, efficient..." that article does not disclude them. Honor has many forms as does success. I think, for one country to be engaged by the rest of the modern world (because no one country could have possibly resisted them) is one hell of a badge of honor. Loss or no, they have the honor of it taking a world to stop them.

I lack factual historic knowledge. At the beginning of the war, our army was smaller - and we were uninvolved. Tell me, how big was the army of Poland in 1944? Oh and please don't compare our men to idiots that would charge tanks on horse back. Brave? No. Stupid. Yes. Though I do credit the Warsaw Ghetto for holding out longer than France. I do not see how my previous statement was inaccurate in anyway. Our training in the US was crap compared to German training, largely due to lack of equipment. I realize English is not your first language, so perhaps something was lost in translation??

The Gestapo was under the leadership of Himmler, but was not the SS. Nor were the Einzatsgruppen. They were specialized units. That is like saying the Delta are special forces - yes they are, but no they do not obey traditional conventions of the US military (they only fall under command of precious few individuals and from what I've read and heard they like to remind NCO's and officers below the 4 star rank of that)

Also: Membership of the Hitlerjugend was '"compulsary" yes, however due to benifits for the family and presure from the Getsapu I would hardly say it's safe to assume all that joined did it for anyhting as glamorous as national pride. Another of the points, I have done poorly at expressing, is just this - although volunteer (by theory) the reprecusions for not volunteering made membership in this organizations often less than optional. How many men do you think joined to keep their loved ones safe?? No not all, but you cannot condemn those that did the same as you would the sociopaths that joined to quench their blood lust. But hey that might just be my take on it.

@JoeA
*shrug* I potentially have Jewish heritage, my family came to the colonies in the 1600's though. So it's hard to say, Jewish last name but absolutely no practicing Jews in the family, most likely (IMHO) our patriach was disowned for something or disowned his family, perhaps for a woman. So it's very possible I lost distant, all be it, relatives in Germany. At anyrate, I hope you realize I am far from anit-semetic and I still do not believe all of the SS was either.

Huumph gotta get an afterword in, I am not, nor did I ever say I was Jewish. If you saw my other posts you would know that. :roll: They were not the only ones to suffer from Nazis.

Sorry, poor assumption I suppose. I otherwise do not reason for intense emotional response then. Largely due to the fact racial minorities generaly inflict heavier casualties on themselves.

Hand, you're arguments are weak. You've gone from postulating about Army Division commanders ordering the destruction of entire villages to individual enlisted men committing a criminal acts. Well this ain't an Oliver Stone movie, there are bad apples in any group of human beings but unlike your precious SS they are rooted out in the US Army and punished severely.

Now it's obvious you do not have even a clue about what you're talking about, however you just arent willing to admit it, so i'm pretty much done with you.

Oh and by the way it was the 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne). Before that I served in the 1st Bn, 6th Infantry Regiment, 1st Armored Division. 7 years military service in total with more than half of it overseas.

If anyone has the comic book imagination it is you Pal, because unlike you i don't have to rely on the stories of others. I was a real life member of the organizations you are trying (unsuccessfully) to besmirch.