Attack on Pearl harbour?? Do you think it will be possible for us to prevent it??

[JU_88]

The devs have hinted that you may be able to start the SHIV campaign prior to Pearl harbour, so this depends how they handle the attack on Pearl..
If they just spawn a bunch of IJN planes in the area to trash the place, then ok nothing the player can do....

But- if they actually have the carriers approach the area and launch/spwan the attacking planes from them, the player maybe able to (with unrealistic knowledge for the time) intercept and sink the CVs, preventing the attack pearl altogther (or cripple it badly) :hmm: I know its gamey but its still its fun right?

Depends how realisticly the devs script it in, but first thing Im gonna do when get SHIV is hunt for those carriers, even if i dont stop Pearl form happening, i might get me some nice (if slightly dishonest) tonnage to start my career. Oh and I would hope command will reward me with somthing better than- "keep up the good work!":D

[Drebbel]

I don't thiunk they will go for alternate history strory lines.

I also think there is no need within the community for that

[DanCanovas]

no there is no chance of averting pearl habour.

[JU_88]

Its a dynamic campaign, this would have no repercusions on the story, (so yes- no alternate story line)
But we can start patrolling before pearl harobor takes place, pearl was attacked by carrier launched planes,
SO in theory so long as the carriers are physically where they should be - (and not some kind of invisible entity) we can attack them, but i doubt this will have an effect on ta scripted pearl harbour attack.

I should have been more clear, I ment prevent the attack in the campaign so that physically less planes can take part in the attack, the story would be uneffected of course. Much like the way you can sink the task force that sinks the Bismark in SH3, if youre in the right place at the right time. but the Bismark is still destroyed regardless in the storyline.

Still, im sure we will be able to attack the taskforce and sink some CVs, though it probably wount effect pearl, this would be too much work for the devs. :up:

[HunterICX]

in Theory, they didnt know where the Cariers where going and where they would strike on. They noticed it after the first bomb striked an Ship of Pearl harbour. So no...I think the Campaign will start about a couple of hours before the IJN planes will strike. so you cant do nothing against it. the devs probally wont allow you to spot the cariers at all. its too late

[Torplexed]

Given the speed of the Japanese task force if you start at Pearl Harbour you don't have a prayer of catching up with them before they begin their departure from the area. The Japanese launch point was 230 miles north of Oahu. The average ships speed in the task force was 30 knots, a mathematical impossibility to catch up with.

Most US subs in the area probably would have had more to fear from trigger-happy friendly forces that day even if they had been able to pursue the Japanese.

[Oberon]

No...no...no...everyone knows that the only way to even come close to preventing Pearl Harbour is to take a Nimitz class carrier and teleport it back in time from 1980 to the day before Pearl Harbour was attacked!
http://www.reel.com/Content/reelimages/reviews/200x130_final_countdown.jpg

On a more serious note, I think the best way to represent Pearl would be to spawn the planes in, rather than spawn in the entire Jap fleet, as Torplexed pointed out, they were hauling ass, and you've have to know exactly where to find them to stand a chance...and with that knowledge, and the ability to change time...it'd be like being Kirk Douglas ;)

I've read people on SHIII escorting the Bismarck all the way back to Germany whilst receiving reports that the Bismarck had been sunk and requires the crew rescuing. It'd be that kind of scenario. :doh:

[Safe-Keeper]

No...no...no...everyone knows that the only way to even come close to preventing Pearl Harbour is to take a Nimitz class carrier and teleport it back in time from 1980 to the day before Pearl Harbour was attacked!Awesome movie:up:.

Can we avert Pearl Harbour? I hope not. No alternative story-lines for me, thank you.

[Torplexed]

Yah! Send in Kirk Douglas to blast the Japs. Leave Martin Sheen behind in 1941 while yer at it. :lol:

Not to completely throw a wet blanket on JU_88's idea maybe it might be possible to set up a situation such as this in the scenario editor. Depends on how many Japanese ships the developers give us. Given the Japanese love for cruiser-based floatplanes an approach should be difficult.

However, in reality the first US sub (Gudgeon) didn't depart Pearl Harbour for a war patrol until December 11th. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the historical benchmark the developers use.

[Payoff]

Torplexed
Leave Martin Sheen behind in 1941 while yer at it. :lol:


:rotfl: :rotfl:

[Sailor Steve]

However, in reality the first US sub (Gudgeon) didn't depart Pearl Harbour for a war patrol until December 11th. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the historical benchmark the developers use.
I thought there were boats on defensive patrols around Hawaii at the time. I guess that's what I get for thinkin'.

[Torplexed]

You are correct in that there were boats in the waters around Oahu on December 7th Sailor Steve, but not really on a war footing. Pompano, Pollack, and Plunger were arriving from overhaul at Mare Island on the West Coast. Gudgeon was training at Lahaina Roads. Thresher was returning from Midway Island and was driven down numerous times by friendly destroyers, bombed by the US Army Air Corps and was feeling kinda unloved by the time she made Pearl Harbour. (Wonder if that sort of fratricide will be in the sim?) :hmm:

[bookworm_020]

American Subs did play a part in the Pearl Harbour attack. The crews did man the flak guns and succeed in shooting down a couple of the attacking bombers.

A great quote was made to a sub captain just before he left to go on patrol just after the attack (I'll get the names and exact quote) "Your the only offensive force we have left, so Damm it, Don't get sunk trying to win the war in an afternoon."

Also the new Pacific commander was sworen in on the deck of a submarine, as all other ships were damaged, or unavaible.

Japanese sub made a effot as well, 5 miget subs tried to get into pearl before the attack, but were spotted and were either sunk or scuttled. 1 crewman suvived, so becoming the first Japanese POW of World War 2

[Hydra]

Be careful of what you wish for. If you succeed in sinking the Japanese carriers before the attack on Pearl, you're program code is erased and you're left twiddling your thumbs. You could always transfer to the Atlantic theater, but they haven't made SH IV and 1/2 yet! :roll:

[Steeltrap]

You are correct in that there were boats in the waters around Oahu on December 7th Sailor Steve, but not really on a war footing. Pompano, Pollack, and Plunger were arriving from overhaul at Mare Island on the West Coast. Gudgeon was training at Lahaina Roads. Thresher was returning from Midway Island and was driven down numerous times by friendly destroyers, bombed by the US Army Air Corps and was feeling kinda unloved by the time she made Pearl Harbour. (Wonder if that sort of fratricide will be in the sim?) :hmm:

NO simulation of the armed forces of the USA is complete without fratricide!!! They have SUCH a talent for it!! Indeed, there are more recent examples where they've spread the 'brotherly love' to their unfortunate allies - witness the fate of Brit APCs in first Gulf War. As a side note, I've read an account of the inquiry into that incident as writen by Geoffrey Robertson - highly accomplished QC/Judge - and it's pretty disgusting.

Actually, the inquiry into the sinking of the USS Frank E Evans by the Australian crrier HMAS Melbourne was pretty crooked, too - they hung the skipper of the Melbourne out to dry despite the official finding being "no case to answer" and it clearly being the fault of the Evans. What is the yanks have about acknowledging their screw-ups? They happen, we're human. Lying about it doesn't do much to help, or present yourself in a very flattering light....

[Sailor Steve]

Actually, the inquiry into the sinking of the USS Frank E Evans by the Australian crrier HMAS Melbourne was pretty crooked, too - they hung the skipper of the Melbourne out to dry despite the official finding being "no case to answer" and it clearly being the fault of the Evans. What is the yanks have about acknowledging their screw-ups? They happen, we're human. Lying about it doesn't do much to help, or present yourself in a very flattering light....
Perhaps you should check your facts before accusing people of being "crooked". Captain Stevenson of the Melbourne was cleared of any wrongdoing, but his sea career was effectively over. This happens in pretty much any navy, even if a ship runs aground. Yes, the OOD of Frank E. Evans was at fault, but her skipper, Commander Albert S. McLemore, who was asleep in his bunk at the time, suffered exactly the same fate: examinatory court martial and end of career.

In April of 1970 the USS Brinkley Bass was on maneuvers with an Australian group led by HMAS Melbourne. At around 0200 hours Brinkley Bass was ordered to switch from port station to ahead station. In the middle of this maneuver Melbourne ordered the entire group to turn 90 degrees to starboard. All ships complied, but Melbourne herself for some unexplained reason turned to port, bearing down on another U.S. destroyer. This time it was clearly the mistake of someone aboard the carrier. The distance involved was more that a mile, so there was plenty of time for the destroyer to avoid any problems. A message then came from the carrier for the entire group to stop and wait for their leader to turn around and rejoin. Jokes were made aboard the destroyer about the carrier having "a captain and three admirals all giving orders at the same time".

How do I know this story? I was midwatch duty radioman that night, and I was the one who carried the orders to the bridge.

[Dantenoc]

The only possible way to include a scenario such as this, would be as a single mission, and even then it would be of little value... John Rambo wasn't born yet, so there's no chance of a single sub stoping the attack.

It would completely ruin the campaing if you were able to stop the japs before they struck. As mentioned previously by someone else, once the planes are in the air then a US sub can do nothing. Therefore you would have to attack the carriers BEFORE they could come within striking range of Hawaii... but whait, you can't do that!!!... there is no state of war between the U.S. and the Japanese empire, so what gives you the right to attack innocent neutrals out on excersice maneuvers? :nope: You should be declared a renegade, courtmartialed and shot along with your whole crew for playing along with that... end of camapaing for you :down:

If you wan't to talk about interesting alternate histories, maybe we could have a dynamic campaing that pits you (representing the subs) against the carriers for leadership of the war effort. At the begining of the war the aircraft carrier wasn't the central piece in U.S. naval strategy yet, so maybe if you could play a very succesfull campaing that would have the U.S. subs become the focus of U.S. naval strategy, receiving ever more important missions as you play along.???? But if it's too much trouble just forget it... where here for tactics, not alternate strategies.

[Dantenoc]

But whait! That's not to say that the attack on pearl shouldn't be included... it would be very exciting to start of the campaing in the middle of the attack where your first mission is to just survive :rock:

[Steeltrap]

Actually, the inquiry into the sinking of the USS Frank E Evans by the Australian crrier HMAS Melbourne was pretty crooked, too - they hung the skipper of the Melbourne out to dry despite the official finding being "no case to answer" and it clearly being the fault of the Evans. What is the yanks have about acknowledging their screw-ups? They happen, we're human. Lying about it doesn't do much to help, or present yourself in a very flattering light....
Perhaps you should check your facts before accusing people of being "crooked". Captain Stevenson of the Melbourne was cleared of any wrongdoing, but his sea career was effectively over. This happens in pretty much any navy, even if a ship runs aground. Yes, the OOD of Frank E. Evans was at fault, but her skipper, Commander Albert S. McLemore, who was asleep in his bunk at the time, suffered exactly the same fate: examinatory court martial and end of career.

I have checked my facts. Read "No Case to Answer" - goes through the entire conduct of the inquiry. Bizarre thing is they'd just held briefings about the manoeuvres to be conducted in the case of an escort being told to take plane guard station....the Evans completely ignored them and turned into the formation, not away as had specifically been ordered in the briefing. There were also some rather sus political goings-on and some seemingly odd differences in who/what/how evidence was given, depending on the nationality of the person involved.

As for Stevenson, evry previous captain of the Melbourne had, I believe, gone on to the training school from which flag rank followed, but he didn't. The Navy's official answer was that his new posting was a prestige position....which was crap. Ask yourself this - both skippers get the same fate, yet McLemore failed in several respects and that lead directly to the deaths of sailors. Does that seem legit?

[d@rk51d3]

But whait! That's not to say that the attack on pearl shouldn't be included... it would be very exciting to start of the campaing in the middle of the attack where your first mission is to just survive :rock:



Can you imagine the lag while doing so? There'd be a few computers going "pop" in the process:rotfl:

[Sailor Steve]

Does that seem legit?
No, it doesn't. But it does seem like typical military thinking. You know the original oxymoron: Military Intelligence? With all the screw-ups in military history, I just get upset when people throw around phrases like "crooked" and "fratricide". The one night we spent in Vung Tau harbor the Viet Cong launched an attack from the hills on the marine base there. We went to General Quarters, pulled up further into the bay and proceeded to provide fire support, shooting over the marine base and into the hills behind. All the time we were joking about what would happen if a few rounds 'accidentally' landed on the jarheads. Not really funny, but it could happen, and in times of stress the jokes can get pretty morbid.