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Rosencrantz
06-09-2006, 07:54 AM
Just one thought, not a new one: How about the currents? With a new weather model + celestical navig. ? "Groundbreaker"?

-RC-

DeepSix
06-09-2006, 12:28 PM
Modeled currents would indeed have to be a groundbreaker (and a most pleasing one).:hmm:

[Aside to any devs who may be listening: face it, we want it all!]:D

Rosencrantz
06-09-2006, 12:50 PM
Any ideas how harsh it would be to do the current model?
On different sea area your boat would be moving to a certain direction with certain speed. Hmm... How is it in real life? Let's have an example:

There is a current going straight fm north to south at speed 3 knots per hour. A vessel is heading to north, speed 3 knots. How much the current affects in RL? The vessel is moving 3 knots contra water, but what could be the speed contra seafloor. I doubt it's 3 knots vs. 3 knots = 0 knots. Or is it? Then submerged sub should make 6 knots to reach even 3 knots contra seafloor. Can't be.

Sailors, please...?


-RC-

DeepSix
06-09-2006, 01:06 PM
The best example I can think of is Lombok Strait, where subs transiting between Fremantle and their patrol areas had to - IIRC - fight the current going to station but could drift with it coming off station. Its speed varied but I think it was about 6 knots. That, I think, is one of the fastest currents the boats had to deal with. Seems like I read about one boat making about 1 knot forward speed through there. I'll dig around and see if I can find the specifics.:)

Rosencrantz
06-10-2006, 09:03 AM
Yep, I did some investigating too.
I did remeber it correct, so if you are traveling straight towards the stream with equal speed your speed will be 0 contra seafloor. Everybody can imagine what kind of affect the currents would have in your tactics.
For example, if you turn your heading in the stream after an attack, you'll get a big bonus to your speed, and in an hour you'll be 6 nm's off the point you lauched the torpedoes (if you are driving 3 knots and the speed of current is 3 knots also). So, DD's will be far away maybe, or not... If they can take this in account. :lol:

But anyway: More I think dynamic weather, celestical navig. and streams, more interested in I am. Navigation would not be a problem to a casual player, if the process is done by the navigator. (AI). There has been good ideas for the navig. system. Anyway I would like to get rid of the GPS-system.

-RC-

Sailor Steve
06-10-2006, 11:22 AM
This is actually an effect well known to pilots. When navigating in any kind of wind, wind speed and direction have to be taken into account, or you'll wind up miles from where you wanted to be. Flying at 90 knots perpendicular (right angles) to a 10-knot wind means that every hour you'll be another 9 (nautical) miles off course.

If your u-boat is submerged and making 4 knots against a 6-knot current, yes, you will actually travel 2 knots backward. Calculating the directional 'push' at any angle other than 90 degrees to your direction of travel makes the calculations much more difficult. Pilots at least have radio beacons they can use to triangulate their exact position.

Drebbel
06-10-2006, 11:32 AM
Yep, in most planes that display "flight data" to the passengers they have air speed and ground speed being displayed. The difference is the "current" of the wind.

Rosencrantz
06-10-2006, 02:17 PM
Steve wrote:
Calculating the directional 'push' at any angle other than 90 degrees to your direction of travel makes the calculations much more difficult.


That's right Steve. When I was a young lad, I tried to study the basic navig. fm the books. Left it because I didn't got a chance to try it in practice. But let's get back to the business:

I found some calculators you can try in the net so I took a fast look how the different currents affects to a "course making good". Currents really would have a huge punch in the game, especially and more frequent in the situations you are trying to reach a contact fm a distance (based on radio reports and so on...) I think often in close range currents would act minor part, at least if you can get yourself ahead of the target. But I'm wondering if there is this big BUT: Navigation in the currents.

I'm willing to learn new things and I think also most of us "old" subsimmers would like to see the currents finaly in the game (I'm not totally positive if DW allready got them), but I think a casual player would need a very good AI assistant, or otherwise he might find himself from Alaska coast rather than fm Bungo Suido. Even in the game. So the "realistic currents" should be, again, optional. That would be the most simple way to solve the navig. problems caused by the streams.

So, if looking for a groundbreaker I would still say Abbandoning the GPS-navig. + dynamic weather model + currents. But I don't think these ideas should lead to overlooking the better AI, especially convoy tactics like zigging.

Greetings,
-RC-

-Pv-
06-11-2006, 01:47 PM
Imagine what currents would do to your torpedo attacks. Also think about zigging convoys in currents. One moment they're going 12 knots at 120 magnetic and the next they're going 7 knots 180 mag (turning dynamics included.)

You're under dive bomber attack and you speed to 15 knots so you can do some turning evasion and turn into the current slowing you to 10 knots.

You're under depth charge attack and trying to turn off the attacker's track on run silent and the only place you can turn to evade is into the current.

You've got a perfect attack setup. You just managed to figure out the convoy's zig cycle and after shaddowing for two days you have a target setup where the convoy cannot zig for a short while as they move through a straight. You hit a current change in the database just as you are about to fire. You adjust gyro and turn the boat a bit and the convoy zags passing out the other end of the straight. Maybe you managed all this fine with no problems and the torpedoes hit the current change knocking them 3 degrees off track every 100 M.

Shure this could be an option, but why spend thousands of dollars coding in an option 90% of us would likely stop using after a while because jobs, families, obligations prevent us from spending 14 hours a day playing a computer game (and I'm a hard core sub gamer.)
-Pv-

Drebbel
06-11-2006, 02:25 PM
I think I go with PV, seems indeed a lot of coding for litle bit additional game value.

And what is the situation with flight sims, do the model windspeed ? And does it have an effect of the plane and its surrpunding ?

Gizzmoe
06-11-2006, 02:48 PM
And what is the situation with flight sims, do the model windspeed ?
Yes! I wouldnīt play a flightsim that doesnīt model wind effects. AFAIK there isnīt one that doesnīt.

Drebbel
06-11-2006, 03:19 PM
And what is the situation with flight sims, do the model windspeed ?
Yes! I wouldnīt play a flightsim that doesnīt model wind effects. AFAIK there isnīt one that doesnīt.

Impressive. Does it also effect things like rockets and how the bombs fall down ?

Gizzmoe
06-11-2006, 03:38 PM
Impressive. Does it also effect things like rockets and how the bombs fall down ?
In Falcon4 it does, but Iīm only 99% sure. I rarely use free-fall bombs and when I do itīs a low-level pass, so there would only be a minimal effect. The HUD and CCIP reticle are wind-corrected though. I donīt know if IL2 models that, I only fly fighters.

Rosencrantz
06-11-2006, 04:13 PM
Pv wrote:
Imagine what currents would do to your torpedo attacks. Also think about zigging convoys in currents. One moment they're going 12 knots at 120 magnetic and the next they're going 7 knots 180 mag (turning dynamics included.)



Well, your example is not in the order, Pv. When you are using your TDC you think just targets speed contra water, not contra seafloor, because the very same current has its affect to the submarine and torpedoes as well as the convoy. So, most in the cases where you get yourself close to the convoy, the affect of the current would be 0. That's why, as I previously said, the currents have their biggest affect usually only with the distance.

Currents, or their possible affects, are very complicated, I think. Sometimes the current could have a huge affect to your tactic, but maybe in the most of the cases they wouldn't affect at all. Originally I thought they would be an interesting part of the more advanced navigation model, but because they propably would be acting just a minor part in the tactic, then it's maybe like Drebbel wrote:

seems indeed a lot of coding for litle bit additional game value.



-RC-

Rosencrantz
06-11-2006, 04:47 PM
-Pv-!

Your post sounds so frustrated and funny I can't leave the thread without giving couple more answers to you:

You're under dive bomber attack and you speed to 15 knots so you can do some turning evasion and turn into the current slowing you to 10 knots.



Well, if the plane is making 200 knots, I think it's just the same is the boat making 10 or 15 knots contra seafloor. And if this makes you feel better, you could also turn off the current and get few more knots. Personally I prefer to do crashdive or man the guns + accelerating.

You're under depth charge attack and trying to turn off the attacker's track on run silent and the only place you can turn to evade is into the current.


I quess you remember Prien. I'm sure he lived through some exiting moments trying to beat the current when he was heading out fm Scapa. And he was on the surface.

You hit a current change in the database just as you are about to fire.

What "current change" into what "database"? You mean TDC? Read my first answer to you, please. I have noticed in this forum there is an unwriten rule to study business before giving examples with the tone of the master OR otherwise it's made to be clear if one is not SURE. That's not only polite but also a good way to act if trying to avoid messing around unnecessarily.

:nope:

Greetings,
-RC-

Drebbel
06-12-2006, 12:12 AM
Your post sounds so frustrated and funny I can't leave the thread without giving couple more answers to you:

Hmmm, be carefull people. I think all posts are intended seriously and this forum is not the place to call such posts funny or frustrated.


You hit a current change in the database just as you are about to fire.

What "current change" into what "database"? You mean TDC? Read my first answer to you, please.


Nope, he does not mean TDC, and it is up to you to request additional info when a remark is not been understood by you :D


I have noticed in this forum there is an unwriten rule to study business before giving examples with the tone of the master OR otherwise it's made to be clear if one is not SURE. That's not only polite but also a good way to act if trying to avoid messing around unnecessarily.

:nope:


Hmm, why this anger ?? No need to get angry if someone does not agree with you or if you do not get his arguments !

Drebbel (with my moderator hat on)

Rosencrantz
06-12-2006, 04:58 AM
Drebbel wrote:
Nope, he does not mean TDC, and it is up to you to request additional info when a remark is not been understood by you :D



I see. I think I understand his intention now. So, he is talking about the current change coded into the games database. Right. My mistake, I'm sorry. But anyway I think kind of situation Pv is talking about would be both rare and interesting (the boat and the convoy in different currents). But as I said before, I think usually there is no need to be concerned about the streams when preparing to launch or making calculations.

No need to get angry if someone does not agree with you or if you do not get his arguments !


Well, for me the question wasn't if someone would agree / disagree with me, but that the examples given were, I think, incorrect. Like I previously posted:

I have noticed in this forum there is an unwriten rule to study business before giving examples with the tone of the master


-RC-

Sailor Steve
06-12-2006, 11:30 AM
Imagine what currents would do to your torpedo attacks. Also think about zigging convoys in currents. One moment they're going 12 knots at 120 magnetic and the next they're going 7 knots 180 mag (turning dynamics included.)
Most ocean currents are quite broad (we're talking miles here) and the change from one current to another is very gradual. There would be no sudden noticable effect.

You're under dive bomber attack and you speed to 15 knots so you can do some turning evasion and turn into the current slowing you to 10 knots.
To a plane travelling at 90 knots or more a ship is effectively standing still. Sudden direction changes don't work, as to the pilot they seem to be happening in slow motion.

You're under depth charge attack and trying to turn off the attacker's track on run silent and the only place you can turn to evade is into the current.
1) The submarine and the attacking destroyer are affected equally by the current, so it doesn't matter; the relationship between the two is unaffected.

2) Sometimes there will be a different current at different depths; the submarine will have a 5-knot current in one direction, while the destroyer has a 6-knot current in another. The problem here is that neither one can possibly be aware of said currents. The only thing they know is that the distance between the two became greater at a rate neither could measure, to the advantage of the submarine and annoyance of the destroyer, unless of course the destroyer got lucky and the currents pushed them closer together. It's a real factor, but one the submarine could never use as a tactic because he can't measure it.

You've got a perfect attack setup. You just managed to figure out the convoy's zig cycle and after shaddowing for two days you have a target setup where the convoy cannot zig for a short while as they move through a straight. You hit a current change in the database just as you are about to fire. You adjust gyro and turn the boat a bit and the convoy zags passing out the other end of the straight. Maybe you managed all this fine with no problems and the torpedoes hit the current change knocking them 3 degrees off track every 100 M.
A possible but very unlikely situation. Could happen, though.

Shure this could be an option, but why spend thousands of dollars coding in an option 90% of us would likely stop using after a while because jobs, families, obligations prevent us from spending 14 hours a day playing a computer game (and I'm a hard core sub gamer.)
-Pv-
Good point.

Drebbel
06-12-2006, 01:31 PM
1) The submarine and the attacking destroyer are affected equally by the current, so it doesn't matter; the relationship between the two is unaffected.

Doesn't that all depand on the total area that is facing the current ?

Rosencrantz
06-12-2006, 06:34 PM
Drebbel wrote:

Doesn't that all depand on the total area that is facing the current ?


Hello Drebbel!

What do you mean about "total area"?


I think the basic problem here is that it can be hard to understand the "nature of current". I mean, maybe both you, Drebbel and Pv, are thinking the current somehow in too "small scale". I try to give my help:

Try to think there is three different levels: 1) stationary sea floor, 2) slow moving, wide and deep current on the sea floor and 3) in or on the current the ships.
Second: Imagine there is two ships facing eachother, both of them speed is zero = they are not moving contra sea. For the next step, imagine the current running in the 90 degrees angle contra ships, speed 3 knots. So both of the stationary ships are not moving contra sea, but they are moving 3 knots in the current contra sea floor. Their relative speed is also 0, no matter what is their Ab to the current or eachother.
Third: Imagine the third ship coming down the stream, speed 3 knots. It would look just like it should look, that it's coming with the speed of three knots, even if it's speed contra sea floor is 6 knots. Now, if you would like to plot it's movement for a torpedo solution, you are drawing its movement on the (tactical) map using speed 3 knots. There is no need to take in the current because it has the same effect both on your 2 ships and third ship, the target.
Last phase: Imagine the target change its course 180 degrees and is now facing the current. You would think: It's speed is now zero (targets speed 3 minus current speed 3). BUT what it would looks like? Still it would looks like it would be leaving your 2 stationary ships with the speed 3 knots, because YOUR ships would move 3 knots contra sea floor.

So, as we can see, in tactical situation the currents would not be a question, usually, so in the tactical drawings and calculations there is no such a factor like "current". BUT, currents do have their affect when talking about navigation, especially when traveling long distances.

-RC-

Rosencrantz
06-12-2006, 07:07 PM
Thinking the coding:

Building the current into the game means basicly giving to a ship certain speed to a certain direction not depending on the ships speed or its heading. The principle is the same if we would like to build up a 3D game with a stationary ground, moving train and moving person in the train. Scale would be a "little bit" different, but also the speed of movement is not that fast. Just wondering... :hmm:


-RC-

Quagmire
06-13-2006, 09:33 AM
Air currents are modelled quite well in MS Flight Simulator 2004. If air currents can be coded there than water currents can be coded in SHIV.

Its just a matter of the devs wanting to spend time on the concept.

Drebbel
06-13-2006, 09:59 AM
Air currents are modelled quite well in MS Flight Simulator 2004. If air currents can be coded there than water currents can be coded in SHIV.

Its just a matter of the devs wanting to spend time on the concept.

And us wanting to pay for it. I have the feeling current are not really important, unless the passing Gibraltar Straight.

So maybe it is better if they just include a thingy like an "uncertanty" box (errors made by dead reckoning), which also includes some kind of current factor. then it would not effect stuff like torpedoes, but it would influence navigating.

I think this was first proposed by Abraham some time ago , not sure though

Abraham
06-13-2006, 10:19 AM
... I have the feeling current are not really important, unless the passing Gibraltar Straight.

So maybe it is better if they just include a thingy like an "uncertanty" box (errors made by dead reckoning), which also includes some kind of current factor. then it would not effect stuff like torpedoes, but it would influence navigating.

I think this was first proposed by Abraham some time ago , not sure though
Correct!

Rosencrantz
06-13-2006, 02:24 PM
Drebbel wrote:

I have the feeling current are not really important


Maybe you are right. Because current basicly don't have effect on tactics, but only on navigation in long distances, modelling them would be just waist of time and money for a little more realism. Doesn't really sound like good idea. But I still don't understand your concern about current effect torpedoes.

-RC-

Threadfin
06-13-2006, 03:15 PM
I disagree that currents wouldn't affect tactics. They have a very real effect. Imagine you make an attack and have to plan an evasion/retirement. If you have to evade submerged into a strong current, you're going nowhere fast. This consideration is evident in some patrol reports I've read.

Rosencrantz
06-13-2006, 03:40 PM
Sure, I agree that, Threadfin.
Basicly I was thinking more just torpedo solutions etc. Did you read the hole discussion through? I think, lot of confusing thoughts here. :doh:
Dunno what to say...

-RC-