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jaxa
06-03-06, 03:46 PM
I was looking long times for any infos about German radar detectors and radars, but without good results. I've decided to write a short article about it, especially for SH3 players, and I hope you like it. Let me know if you find mistakes.
Cheers mates!


RADAR DETECTORS
FuMB = Funkmess-Beobachtungs-Gerat = radar warning apparatus


FuMB 1 Metox R 600A
First operational German radar detector, introduced in August 1942, built by French firm Metox & Gardin. It operated on wavelengths between 125 – 260 cm, detected Allied radars used wavelengths of 140 and 150 centimetres (like British naval type 286 and the airborne ASV Mk. I/II) from about 11 km to over 30 km and generated warning sound in case of radar detect. Unfortunately, Metox could not differentiate between radar and non-radar signals and could not provide the bearing of the source of transmission. His plain, wooden cross-shaped antenna FuMB Ant 2 Honduras (nicknamed Biskayakreuz) could be rotated manually and had to be taken into conning tower every time Uboot dived. In February 1943 Biskayakreuz was replaced by circular antenna FuMB Ant 3 Bali (137-166 cm wavelenghts), which didn’t have to remove before diving (as FuMB 29 Bali was mounted on top of schnorchel at end of war). At the same time was added second oscillator (visual display to replace warning sound). FuMB 1 was used to July 1943, when British introduced 10 cm ASV Mk.III and type 271 radar, not detected by Metox. Using of Metox was prohibited by Donitz order after inquire that its signals can be detected by British aircrafts - Metox also emitted a weak signal, a property common to many radio receivers, especially superheterodyne receivers.


FuMB 8 W.Anz g (or g1) (Zypern I), FuMB 9 W.Anz g1 (or g2) (Zypern II) – Wanze
Developed by German firm Hagenuk as evolution of Metox, introduced in August/September 1943. Both Wanze types operated on 120 – 180 cm wavelengths (frequency 166-250 MHz) and used water pressure resistant Runddipol (circular) antenna. Wanze g1 produced less radiance than Metox (about ¼ total radiance of FuMB 1) and has automatic scanning with visual display (fine tuning was performed by operator). Range and sensitivity was greater than Metox (over 50 km), but it was after all ineffective against planes equipped with 10 cm radar. On 5 November 1943 Wanze g1 was banned and replaced by later version Wanze g2, with no radiation but reduced range (about half range of Wanze g1). Wanze g2 could be mounted at new FuMO 29 active radar antenna.


FuMB 4 Samos (RS 1/5 UD 42)
Built by German Rohde & Schwarz company, introduced at end of 1943 and replaced Metox on Uboots equipped with FuMO 30 radar. FuMB 4 used FuMB Ant. 5 Samoa antenna, mounted at backside of FuMO 30 antenna. Frequency 90 - 470 MHz, wavelength detection 64 – 333 cm.


FuMB 10 Borkum
Produced by German NKV/Telefunken company,simple device with a crystal amplifier attached to a radio receiver, introduced at end of 1943, after Wanze was banned for use. It operated at 20 – 300 cm wavelengths and gave no radiations, but its range and sensivity was decreased from Metox and Wanze (about ¼ of Wanze g2). Borkum couldn’t indicate direction of approaching aircraft, only generated warning sound like Metox and had limited range of detect. Unfortunately, it wasn’t able to detect new Allied centimeter ASV Mk.III and type 271 radar and was stop-gap device.


FuMB 7 (FuG 350) Naxos
Developed by NVK/Telefunken and introduced in September/November 1943. Designed for 3 - 12 cm wavelengths could detect ASV Mk.III 10 cm radar at last. First version has limited range (5-8 km) and poor non watertight FuMB Ant.11 antenna (with manual rotation and wooden mast), which had to be unmounted each time before submerging. In February 1944 Naxos was equipped with new FuMB 24 Cuba I Fliege handly rotated reflector antenna, operating at 8-12 cm wavelenghts (frequency 2500-3750 MHz). Detecting range of Naxos was greatly increased up to 20 km (Fliege could be used separately for aiming anti-aircraft guns too). In May 1944 was introduced another antenna FuMB 25 Műcke to cover wavelengths from 2 to 4 cm, thanks it Naxos could detect 3 cm ASV Mk.VII Allied radar emissions from the same range as Fliege. In order to locate older-type Allied radars, however, additional equipment for longer wavelengths (Wanze g1/g2 or FuMB 10 Borkum) had to be operated in conjunction with Naxos. Naxos has many versions built for Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe: FuMB 23 Naxos ZM1b (introducedfrom september/october 1944 direction-finding receiver, frequency 2510 - 3750 MHz, wavelength detection 8 cm - 12 cm), FuMB 28 Naxos ZM 4 (from August 1944, visual direction finder, further development of Naxos ZM 1b with rotating antenna consisting of two dielectric strip arrays - the beam rotating synchronously with the antenna on the visual direction finder is light up when it receives a signal), FuMB 28 Naxos ZM 4b (from September 1944, with ZA 290 M antenna and frequency 2500 - 3500 MHz).


FuMB 26 Tunis
Introduced in June 1944 it was advanced, combined system of Naxos receiver with FuMB 24 Fliege (for 9 cm waves) and FuMB 25 Műcke (for 3 cm waves, horn type "Hornstrahler") antennas fitted within the DF loop and with visual direction finder. Wavelength detection 2 - 4 cm and 8 - 23 cm, range over 50 km. Antenna had to be periodically rotated and taken below deck every time the boat submerged. Tunis was very effective against 3 cm ASV Mk.VII radar (bearing accuracy in the 9 cm range was ±10 degrees, in the 3 cm range ±3 degrees) and was used to the end of war.


FuMB 35 Athos
Introduced in early 1945, it was improvement of Tunis. Athos was the final radar warning receiver system developed and used during the war. The electronics were much more sophisticated from others, with the output being displayed on a cathode ray tube. A further advantage was the watertight antenna, mounted at fixed mast in conning tower. This was installed on several Uboots (especially Type XXI, only one type VIIC was equipped with it – U-249) just before the war ended.


FuMB 37 Leros
Introduced in 1945, consisted of Athos and Bali for covering from all Allied radar wavelengths and reduce of antennas on conning tower.



RADARS
FuMO = Funkmess-Ortung = Active radar


FuMO 29 Seetakt (FMG 41G (gU) Seetakt) – GEMA
Developed by German company GEMA. It was conversion of system built for surface warships and first radar fitted to Uboot, introduced at mid-1941. Two Uboats were experimentally fitted with a FuMO 29in summer 1939 (U 39 and U 41), but trials determined that the solution was far from workable. The concept was resurrected in mid-1940, when a few Type IXC boats (U 156, U 157 and U 158) were fitted with a modified FuMO 29 array for tests. First U-boats equipped with standard version were U 156, U 158, U 231 and U 623. Antenna was mounted on a curve plate on the face of Uboot’s conning tower. It were series of two rows of six dipoles per row (total twelve). Range was 7,5 km against surface vessels and 15 km against aircraft at an altitude of 500 meters, wavelength 82 cm, accuracy within 5˚ and field of view only 60˚. To achieve 360˚ sweep Uboot had to make an almost complete circle every 10-12 nautical miles. In 1942 the antenna array was replaced with one fitted on a retractable, rotating mast. A reflector shield was installed behind the dipoles and FuMB 9 W.Anz. g2 (Zypern II) radio detection system was installed on the other side. The mast was stored in a compartment on the side of the conning tower. Little is known about the effectiveness of this system.


FuMO 30 Seetakt (FMG 42G (gU) Seetakt) - GEMA
Introduced in late 1942 - early 1943, improved version of FuMO 29, equipped with new 1,4 x 1 meter rotatable antenna which had to be manually turned by a handwheel in the radio room, with a direction finder added. The antenna was not watertight, which meant it had to be stowed away before diving and consisting of two rows of four dipoles. This array was mounted on the port side of the conning tower and it retracted into a slot when not in use. Range was slightly increased up to 8 km, frequency 368 MHz, range accuracy about 100 m. FuMO 30 was built into all U-boats, butwas not popular with U-boat crews because of its limited effectiveness and high detection chance. It was used until March 1944.


FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U
FuMO 65 Hohentwiel U1
Built by German firm Lorentz. Introduced in March 1944, to September 1944 equipped with Hohentwiel 64 U-boats. This was adapted from the Luftwaffe FuG-200 Hohentwiel radar, which was fitted on the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor, Heinkel He 177 and night fighters. It had a range up to 10 km against surface vessels and 20 km against aircraft, frequency 556 MHz. The rotating antenna (1,4 x 1 meter) was very similar to that of the FuMO 30, but differed in having four rows of six dipoles instead of two rows of four. These Hohentwiel radars contained only 19 valves and, by the standards of the time, were easy to maintain and reliable. Resolution was about 3 degrees and at short range its range accuracy was 100 meters. FuMO 65 replaced the traditional radar display, which had separate oscilloscope screens indicating range and azimuth, by a PPI (Plan Position Indicator) screen, known to the Germans as “Drauf”, a circular display on which the position of a target is directly indicated as the radar beam sweeps round. FuMO 65 was installed in only a few Type XXI submarines. It was considered a very useful piece of equipment, especially for navigation in coastal waters. Although more effective than the FuMO 29/FuMO 30, Hohentwiel was hardly ever used by U-boat crews, which by 1944 preferred the passive arrays in order to keep as low a profile as possible.


FuMO 83 Berlin UI
FuMO 84 Berlin UII
Built by Telefunken, Berlin was an enhanced, lighter and smaller copy of British ASV Mk.III 10 cm radar, found in a British bomber shot down near Rotterdam on 3 February 1943. FuMO 83 had four watertight ceramic stub antennas in a plastic sphere, which was installed on top of a rotating mast. It could be used for panoramic scanning or for direction finding, at periscope depth. Range about 20-30 km, wavelenght 9 cm, frequency 3300 MHz. FuMO 84 was the final version, which did not use a retractable mast. The system never went into production.


FuMO 391 Lessing
Lessing was designed specifically to detect aircraft presence and was intended to be installed on the Type XXI. It could detect aircraft up to a 30 km radius, but could not indicate its height or location, wavelength 240 cm. A unique feature is that this set could also function while snorkeling, although the range was somewhat reduced.


Ballspiel
Ballspiel was a gunnery radar for U-boats. Like most German radars at the end of the war, it was a development of FuMO 83 Berlin. It had a range of 25 km, but for practical gunnery only 8km was used. It had an azimuth accuracy of about 1 degree and a range accuracy of 500 meters. It is known that Ballspiel was used in active service, but there are no data about its effectiveness.









Suorces:
Ubootwaffe 1939-1945 vol. 1-4, Waldemar Trojca, published by AJ-Press
www.uboataces.com (http://www.uboataces.com)
www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Ultra/SRH-025/index.html (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Ultra/SRH-025/index.html)
www.ww2technik.de/dsub_vert.htm (http://www.ww2technik.de/dsub_vert.htm)
http://home.hetnet.nl/~jangetongeren/radars/radarafkortingen.htm (http://home.hetnet.nl/%7Ejangetongeren/radars/radarafkortingen.htm)
www.deutschesatlantikwallarchiv.de/radar/rtechnik.htm (http://www.deutschesatlantikwallarchiv.de/radar/rtechnik.htm)
www.paolopizzi.com/paolopizzi/reviews/typeix/typeix.htm (http://www.paolopizzi.com/paolopizzi/reviews/typeix/typeix.htm)
www.ubootwaffe.pl (http://www.ubootwaffe.pl)
www.uboat.net/technical/index.html (http://www.uboat.net/technical/index.html)
Catfish subsim forum member infos
Stiebler subsim forum member Radar_Detection mod txt file

sergbuto
06-03-06, 04:04 PM
Unfortunately, I have a slight difficulty to read white font on white background.

Drebbel
06-03-06, 04:58 PM
Same here, please do NOT post white (or any other light colored text) if you want all people to be able to read your posting.

To see for yourself just scroll to the bottom left corner of this page and select the Lazyblue theme instead of Smartdaft.

jaxa
06-04-06, 01:27 AM
Hmm, I see white fonts on black background:hmm: It was "cut & paste" from Word to forum.
If you want, I'll change color of fonts from white to grey.
You have absolutely right sergbuto, reading white text on white background is rather frustrating.
BTW, will you plan to do type XIV model? If I remember well, you worked on it.

jaxa
06-04-06, 01:30 AM
RADAR DETECTORS
FuMB = Funkmess-Beobachtungs-Gerat = radar warning apparatus


FuMB 1 Metox R 600A
First operational German radar detector, introduced in August 1942, built by French firm Metox & Gardin. It operated on wavelengths between 125 – 260 cm, detected Allied radars used wavelengths of 140 and 150 centimetres (like British naval type 286 and the airborne ASV Mk. I/II) from about 11 km to over 30 km and generated warning sound in case of radar detect. Unfortunately, Metox could not differentiate between radar and non-radar signals and could not provide the bearing of the source of transmission. His plain, wooden cross-shaped antenna FuMB Ant 2 Honduras (nicknamed Biskayakreuz) could be rotated manually and had to be taken into conning tower every time Uboot dived. In February 1943 Biskayakreuz was replaced by circular antenna FuMB Ant 3 Bali (137-166 cm wavelenghts), which didn’t have to remove before diving (as FuMB 29 Bali was mounted on top of schnorchel at end of war). At the same time was added second oscillator (visual display to replace warning sound). FuMB 1 was used to July 1943, when British introduced 10 cm ASV Mk.III and type 271 radar, not detected by Metox. Using of Metox was prohibited by Donitz order after inquire that its signals can be detected by British aircrafts - Metox also emitted a weak signal, a property common to many radio receivers, especially superheterodyne receivers.


FuMB 8 W.Anz g (or g1) (Zypern I), FuMB 9 W.Anz g1 (or g2) (Zypern II) – Wanze
Developed by German firm Hagenuk as evolution of Metox, introduced in August/September 1943. Both Wanze types operated on 120 – 180 cm wavelengths (frequency 166-250 MHz) and used water pressure resistant Runddipol (circular) antenna. Wanze g1 produced less radiance than Metox (about ¼ total radiance of FuMB 1) and has automatic scanning with visual display (fine tuning was performed by operator). Range and sensitivity was greater than Metox (over 50 km), but it was after all ineffective against planes equipped with 10 cm radar. On 5 November 1943 Wanze g1 was banned and replaced by later version Wanze g2, with no radiation but reduced range (about half range of Wanze g1). Wanze g2 could be mounted at new FuMO 29 active radar antenna.


FuMB 4 Samos (RS 1/5 UD 42)
Built by German Rohde & Schwarz company, introduced at end of 1943 and replaced Metox on Uboots equipped with FuMO 30 radar. FuMB 4 used FuMB Ant. 5 Samoa antenna, mounted at backside of FuMO 30 antenna. Frequency 90 - 470 MHz, wavelength detection 64 – 333 cm.


FuMB 10 Borkum
Produced by German NKV/Telefunken company,simple device with a crystal amplifier attached to a radio receiver, introduced at end of 1943, after Wanze was banned for use. It operated at 20 – 300 cm wavelengths and gave no radiations, but its range and sensivity was decreased from Metox and Wanze (about ¼ of Wanze g2). Borkum couldn’t indicate direction of approaching aircraft, only generated warning sound like Metox and had limited range of detect. Unfortunately, it wasn’t able to detect new Allied centimeter ASV Mk.III and type 271 radar and was stop-gap device.


FuMB 7 (FuG 350) Naxos
Developed by NVK/Telefunken and introduced in September/November 1943. Designed for 3 - 12 cm wavelengths could detect ASV Mk.III 10 cm radar at last. First version has limited range (5-8 km) and poor non watertight FuMB Ant.11 antenna (with manual rotation and wooden mast), which had to be unmounted each time before submerging. In February 1944 Naxos was equipped with new FuMB 24 Cuba I Fliege handly rotated reflector antenna, operating at 8-12 cm wavelenghts (frequency 2500-3750 MHz). Detecting range of Naxos was greatly increased up to 20 km (Fliege could be used separately for aiming anti-aircraft guns too). In May 1944 was introduced another antenna FuMB 25 Műcke to cover wavelengths from 2 to 4 cm, thanks it Naxos could detect 3 cm ASV Mk.VII Allied radar emissions from the same range as Fliege. In order to locate older-type Allied radars, however, additional equipment for longer wavelengths (Wanze g1/g2 or FuMB 10 Borkum) had to be operated in conjunction with Naxos. Naxos has many versions built for Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe: FuMB 23 Naxos ZM1b (introducedfrom september/october 1944 direction-finding receiver, frequency 2510 - 3750 MHz, wavelength detection 8 cm - 12 cm), FuMB 28 Naxos ZM 4 (from August 1944, visual direction finder, further development of Naxos ZM 1b with rotating antenna consisting of two dielectric strip arrays - the beam rotating synchronously with the antenna on the visual direction finder is light up when it receives a signal), FuMB 28 Naxos ZM 4b (from September 1944, with ZA 290 M antenna and frequency 2500 - 3500 MHz).


FuMB 26 Tunis
Introduced in June 1944 it was advanced, combined system of Naxos receiver with FuMB 24 Fliege (for 9 cm waves) and FuMB 25 Műcke (for 3 cm waves, horn type "Hornstrahler") antennas fitted within the DF loop and with visual direction finder. Wavelength detection 2 - 4 cm and 8 - 23 cm, range over 50 km. Antenna had to be periodically rotated and taken below deck every time the boat submerged. Tunis was very effective against 3 cm ASV Mk.VII radar (bearing accuracy in the 9 cm range was ±10 degrees, in the 3 cm range ±3 degrees) and was used to the end of war.


FuMB 35 Athos
Introduced in early 1945, it was improvement of Tunis. Athos was the final radar warning receiver system developed and used during the war. The electronics were much more sophisticated from others, with the output being displayed on a cathode ray tube. A further advantage was the watertight antenna, mounted at fixed mast in conning tower. This was installed on several Uboots (especially Type XXI, only one type VIIC was equipped with it – U-249) just before the war ended.


FuMB 37 Leros
Introduced in 1945, consisted of Athos and Bali for covering from all Allied radar wavelengths and reduce of antennas on conning tower.



RADARS
FuMO = Funkmess-Ortung = Active radar


FuMO 29 Seetakt (FMG 41G (gU) Seetakt) – GEMA
Developed by German company GEMA. It was conversion of system built for surface warships and first radar fitted to Uboot, introduced at mid-1941. Two Uboats were experimentally fitted with a FuMO 29in summer 1939 (U 39 and U 41), but trials determined that the solution was far from workable. The concept was resurrected in mid-1940, when a few Type IXC boats (U 156, U 157 and U 158) were fitted with a modified FuMO 29 array for tests. First U-boats equipped with standard version were U 156, U 158, U 231 and U 623. Antenna was mounted on a curve plate on the face of Uboot’s conning tower. It were series of two rows of six dipoles per row (total twelve). Range was 7,5 km against surface vessels and 15 km against aircraft at an altitude of 500 meters, wavelength 82 cm, accuracy within 5˚ and field of view only 60˚. To achieve 360˚ sweep Uboot had to make an almost complete circle every 10-12 nautical miles. In 1942 the antenna array was replaced with one fitted on a retractable, rotating mast. A reflector shield was installed behind the dipoles and FuMB 9 W.Anz. g2 (Zypern II) radio detection system was installed on the other side. The mast was stored in a compartment on the side of the conning tower. Little is known about the effectiveness of this system.


FuMO 30 Seetakt (FMG 42G (gU) Seetakt) - GEMA
Introduced in late 1942 - early 1943, improved version of FuMO 29, equipped with new 1,4 x 1 meter rotatable antenna which had to be manually turned by a handwheel in the radio room, with a direction finder added. The antenna was not watertight, which meant it had to be stowed away before diving and consisting of two rows of four dipoles. This array was mounted on the port side of the conning tower and it retracted into a slot when not in use. Range was slightly increased up to 8 km, frequency 368 MHz, range accuracy about 100 m. FuMO 30 was built into all U-boats, butwas not popular with U-boat crews because of its limited effectiveness and high detection chance. It was used until March 1944.


FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U
FuMO 65 Hohentwiel U1
Built by German firm Lorentz. Introduced in March 1944, to September 1944 equipped with Hohentwiel 64 U-boats. This was adapted from the Luftwaffe FuG-200 Hohentwiel radar, which was fitted on the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor, Heinkel He 177 and night fighters. It had a range up to 10 km against surface vessels and 20 km against aircraft, frequency 556 MHz. The rotating antenna (1,4 x 1 meter) was very similar to that of the FuMO 30, but differed in having four rows of six dipoles instead of two rows of four. These Hohentwiel radars contained only 19 valves and, by the standards of the time, were easy to maintain and reliable. Resolution was about 3 degrees and at short range its range accuracy was 100 meters. FuMO 65 replaced the traditional radar display, which had separate oscilloscope screens indicating range and azimuth, by a PPI (Plan Position Indicator) screen, known to the Germans as “Drauf”, a circular display on which the position of a target is directly indicated as the radar beam sweeps round. FuMO 65 was installed in only a few Type XXI submarines. It was considered a very useful piece of equipment, especially for navigation in coastal waters. Although more effective than the FuMO 29/FuMO 30, Hohentwiel was hardly ever used by U-boat crews, which by 1944 preferred the passive arrays in order to keep as low a profile as possible.


FuMO 83 Berlin UI
FuMO 84 Berlin UII
Built by Telefunken, Berlin was an enhanced, lighter and smaller copy of British ASV Mk.III 10 cm radar, found in a British bomber shot down near Rotterdam on 3 February 1943. FuMO 83 had four watertight ceramic stub antennas in a plastic sphere, which was installed on top of a rotating mast. It could be used for panoramic scanning or for direction finding, at periscope depth. Range about 20-30 km, wavelenght 9 cm, frequency 3300 MHz. FuMO 84 was the final version, which did not use a retractable mast. The system never went into production.


FuMO 391 Lessing
Lessing was designed specifically to detect aircraft presence and was intended to be installed on the Type XXI. It could detect aircraft up to a 30 km radius, but could not indicate its height or location, wavelength 240 cm. A unique feature is that this set could also function while snorkeling, although the range was somewhat reduced.


Ballspiel
Ballspiel was a gunnery radar for U-boats. Like most German radars at the end of the war, it was a development of FuMO 83 Berlin. It had a range of 25 km, but for practical gunnery only 8km was used. It had an azimuth accuracy of about 1 degree and a range accuracy of 500 meters. It is known that Ballspiel was used in active service, but there are no data about its effectiveness.









Suorces:
Ubootwaffe 1939-1945 vol. 1-4, Waldemar Trojca, published by AJ-Press
www.uboataces.com (http://www.uboataces.com/)
www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Ultra/SRH-025/index.html (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/Ultra/SRH-025/index.html)
www.ww2technik.de/dsub_vert.htm (http://www.ww2technik.de/dsub_vert.htm)
http://home.hetnet.nl/~jangetongeren/radars/radarafkortingen.htm (http://home.hetnet.nl/%7Ejangetongeren/radars/radarafkortingen.htm)
www.deutschesatlantikwallarchiv.de/radar/rtechnik.htm (http://www.deutschesatlantikwallarchiv.de/radar/rtechnik.htm)
www.paolopizzi.com/paolopizzi/reviews/typeix/typeix.htm (http://www.paolopizzi.com/paolopizzi/reviews/typeix/typeix.htm)
www.ubootwaffe.pl (http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/)
www.uboat.net/technical/index.html (http://www.uboat.net/technical/index.html)
Catfish subsim forum member infos
Stiebler subsim forum member Radar_Detection mod txt file

Umfuld
06-04-06, 01:37 AM
I can see it. That stinks that there's not a universal background color. With no spell check I'll sometimes use word and copy and paste posts.

You can alway left click and scroll over the text, should make it visable.

Drebbel
06-04-06, 02:20 AM
I can see it. That stinks that there's not a universal background color.

Correct, just do not make your text extra white, because that will make text unreadable for many users.

With no spell check I'll sometimes use word and copy and paste posts.

No spellcheck ??? This forum DOES have spell check. Just click the http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/editor/spelling.gifbutton

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/8878/spellcheck3hf.png



Drebbel

tycho102
06-04-06, 05:57 PM
It has recently come to my attention that the Jerries kept using klystrons, instead of continuously-tuned magnetrons, severely limiting their radar range (with vacuum tubes, you don't adjust your receiver's sensitivity, you adjust your active power output). Not to even mention maintenance (rust!!) or repair.

Some very poor decisions. So poor, in fact, I suspect politics were the actual deciding factor rather than engineering.

Kind of like America, one might say.

U-Bones
06-04-06, 07:01 PM
...Some very poor decisions. So poor, in fact, I suspect politics were the actual deciding factor rather than engineering.

Kind of like America, one might say.

:rock:Not neccessary, on topic, appropriate, or appreciated. One might say...