Subs of the Pacific

[Tonnage_Ace]

I've always been familiar with u-boat types due to Hollywood films but I'm not so sure about Pacific(American, Japanese) subs. Can some of you point me too some great, definitive Pacific sub websites or books so I can wet my appetite?

[STEED]

Here's two for you.

Thunder Below!: The USS Barb Revolutionizes Submarine Warfare in World War II
Author: Eugene B Fluckey
Publisher: University of Illinois Press
Publication Date: 01.10.1992
ASIN / ISBN: 0252019253
Hardcover
464 Pages


Take Her Deep: A Submarine Against Japan in World War II
Author: I. J. Galatine
Publisher: Algonquin Books
Publication Date: 01.10.1987
ASIN / ISBN: 0912697644
Hardcover

[Sailor Steve]

This should help:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/ships-ss.html

[Tonnage_Ace]

Were any American/Japanese subs 'better' than the XXI? I know about the Japanese submarine aircraft carrier, but I don't think that will be in the game.

[Torplexed]

Were any American/Japanese subs 'better' than the XXI? I know about the Japanese submarine aircraft carrier, but I don't think that will be in the game.

Probably the closest equivalent to the German Type XXI in the Pacific Theater was the Japanese Ha 201 Class.(Type STS) The Sen Taka Sho (submarine, high speed, small) which was designed to defend the coasts of the Japanese home islands.

In bursts of speed, the HA-201 class could run almost 14 knots submerged. The HA-201 class was largely fabricated by welding. Some units of the HA-201 class were fitted with snorkels and Type 22 Radar. They carried four 533-mm (21-inch) torpedoes and were fitted with two tubes. 22 boats were laid down, but only 10 were completed before the end of the war. None made operational patrols

http://zioxville.homestead.com/files/HA_201.jpg

As for the Americans...well they didn't need anything like the Type XXI. They already had a submarine with excellent endurance, radar, sonar and capable of diving deeper with each model (albeit cursed with lousy torpedoes for the first two years.) Japanese industry was never capable of putting up the sort of saturation air and escort cover that influenced the creation of the Type XXI, so consequently nothing like it ever appeared on USN drawing boards during the war.

Ironically enough, in the exact opposite of the situation in the Atlantic, American submarines actually increased the number of guns on deck to go after the shallower draft vessels the Japanese were forced to use as they tried to flee the Allied submarine onslaught by hiding at night in creeks and inlets. Kinda funny how two different submarine campaigns in the same war went in different directions. :ping:

[Tonnage_Ace]

Thanks for your time Torplexed, maybe if the Japs had put up a stronger fight, we'd have more powerful subs to play around with! :arrgh!:

[Torplexed]

No problem Tonnage Ace. :) The Japanese did have a bad habit of putting all their eggs in the 'offensive' basket. Japanese destroyer captains considered escort duty to be defensive and therefore detestable and usually went about it a in half-hearted manner. Sadly, the poor performance of American torpedoes up until 1943 convinced many high ranking Japanese naval officers that their lukewarm to non-existent escort policies were working just fine.

However, I think the Japanese probably put up the best fight they could with what they had on hand. Their industry back in the 1940s was a thin reed which eventually snapped under the massive strains of a total world war. Especially against an opponent like the US which was ten times their size. The US built more submarines than the Japanese did warships of all types in WW2. :o

[CCIP]

Actually, the Ha 201 seems strangely similar to the Type XXIII more than anything else. Very similar performance figures and role :yep:

[Torplexed]

Actually, the Ha 201 seems strangely similar to the Type XXIII more than anything else. Very similar performance figures and role :yep:

Ack! Actually you are correct CCIP! Got my Japanese super subs mixed up. The ocean-going version of the Ha 201 was the 1 202 class (Type ST)
Probably the closest Japanese equivalent to the Type XXI. In some respects, superior.

The Sen Taka (submarine, high speed), could run a sprint speed of 19 knots for 55 minutes while submerged! The I-201 class had streamlined all-welded hulls, high capacity cell batteries and electric motors that provided almost twice the horsepower of their German-designed MAN diesel engines. The I-201 class were fitted with snorkels to allow cruising submerged on their diesels and recharging of their batteries while underwater. They carried 25-mm guns in retractable mounts to maintain streamlining. They could dive to 335 feet, deeper than any previous Japanese sub. Eight boats were laid down, but only three were completed before the end of the war. Again, none saw operational use.

http://zioxville.homestead.com/files/sen_taka.jpg

[Torplexed]

By the way here is a rare photo of two of the coastal type Ha 201 submarines nestled under the island of one Japan's last surviving carriers: the Junyo. In some respects they look rather similar to the streamlined shape of the German 'Walther' Type XVII submarine in my sig.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/c100000/c136995.jpg

[Tonnage_Ace]

No problem Tonnage Ace. :) The Japanese did have a bad habit of putting all their eggs in the 'offensive' basket. Japanese destroyer captains considered escort duty to be defensive and therefore detestable and usually went about it a in half-hearted manner. Sadly, the poor performance of American torpedoes up until 1943 convinced many high ranking Japanese naval officers that their lukewarm to non-existent escort policies were working just fine.

However, I think the Japanese probably put up the best fight they could with what they had on hand. Their industry back in the 1940s was a thin reed which eventually snapped under the massive strains of a total world war. Especially against an opponent like the US which was ten times their size. The US built more submarines than the Japanese did warships of all types in WW2. :o

I figure after the attack on Pearl Harbor which failed to destroy most of the American's Pacific fleet, Japanese High Command pretty much figured it was only a matter of time before the end. I believe the motive for the attack was to gain control of Pacific oil fields, had they done so, maybe things might have been different. But probably not, as the only way Japan could compete with the US industrially, would be to attack on one side while Germany attacked on the other, which didn't happen because Germany was embroiled in a war with Russia, another bad move. Interesting how WW2 seemed to be lost for the Axis by their own actions: If Germany had invaded Britain right after capturing the soldiers at Dunkirk (instead of sending the Luftwaffe in) and not have attacked Russia, they could have concentrated on the US while Japan did the same, it seems there was very little coordination on the Axis part...

[Torplexed]

Japan did manage to secure the rich oil and mineral resources in Indonesia that she went to war over. However, not long after the Japanese suffered one of those blows of bad luck they got to be famous for. On 8 May, 1942 the US sub Grenadier torpedoed and sank one of her most important kills of the war, the transport Taiyo Maru. Post-war examination of Japanese records showed Taiyo Maru to be more than just an ordinary transport; she was en route to the East Indies with a group of 1,000 Japanese scientists, economists, and oil industry technicians bent on restoring the Dutch oil fields in Sumatra to full capacity. Such a large loss of so many experts at once was a painful setback to Japan's war effort.

I guess the moral is...never put all your eggheads in one basket. ;)

[Takeda Shingen]

Japan did manage to secure the rich oil and mineral resources in Indonesia that she went to war over. However, not long after the Japanese suffered one of those blows of bad luck they got to be famous for. On 8 May, 1942 the US sub Grenadier torpedoed and sank one of her most important kills of the war, the transport Taiyo Maru. Post-war examination of Japanese records showed Taiyo Maru to be more than just an ordinary transport; she was en route to the East Indies with a group of 1,000 Japanese scientists, economists, and oil industry technicians bent on restoring the Dutch oil fields in Sumatra to full capacity. Such a large loss of so many experts at once was a painful setback to Japan's war effort.

Indeed. That loss damaged Japan's war effort more than the loss of any combatant or weapon. You can't run a war without oil.

By the way, I think the title of this thread sounds like some sort of strange pin-up magazine.

[Subnuts]

You might want to read Silent Victory by Clay Blair. It's 1,100 pages long but probably the best account of the entire submarine war in the Pacific. Just be ready for a dense read! :D

[Tonnage_Ace]

Any good websites? I tried googling but only found some sub-par material, 1100 pages seems pretty daunting Subnuts as I only want a cursery reviews of subs with pictures, captions and stats.

[zaza]

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9475/pict01131vy.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict01131vy.jpg)
here is papaer plans of ha-201 class :up:


the photo of top books is I-202
IJN has I-201 class

weight 1070/1450 tons
underwater speed 19kt
surface 15.8kt
torpedo tube 4 (front)

it's like u-xxi isnt it?

[Torplexed]

it's like u-xxi isnt it?

Yes! Very much like the German Type XXI zaza. :) Looks like a interesting book on Japanese subs there. Wonder if they publish it in English? :hmm:

[zaza]

well this book is photo books.A little english captions there.
Not so many detail in english.
also there is not so many japanese explanation.

I post here about this book.

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=50062


:up: :up: :up:

[Torplexed]

Wow! :o A marvelous book indeed. Might be worth having just for the excellent quality of the pictures. Nice find zaza! :up:

[GlowwormGuy]

Tried actually to get the Japanese Midgets to work in SH2 but they always seem to crash the game when they roll over. I think they might need to be permanently submerged LOL. The bigger ships seem okay but unexplained crashes happen now and again.

That being said there's a good book called SUNK by a wartime sub commander, Hashimoto, I think he sunk the USS Indianapolis or something about the IJN sub fleet. It would be an interesting mod I think or if they ARE going to the Pacific, at least let us play not just the American side but the other side as well!

The Japanese had a very sizable submarine fleet but they were not well directed tactically, prioritizing warships over merchants. But they could have good missions - the midgets particularly (infiltrate Pearl Harbor on Dec.7, the Sydney Raid) and could even explore such flights of fancy as the Panama canal raids or what if the USS Indianapolis was sunk delivering the atom bomb?

Here's a good set of missions to start with!
http://www.ww2pacific.com/japsubs.html

Enjoy,

Mountbatten

[Sailor Steve]

Were any American/Japanese subs 'better' than the XXI? I know about the Japanese submarine aircraft carrier, but I don't think that will be in the game.
No, the Germans worked out the technology for fast underwater travel; so much so that the first nuclear sub, Nautilus, bears a resemblance to the Type XXI.

On the other hand, while being slower to dive than the typical U-boat, U.S. fleet subs were usually faster on the surface and carried six tubes forward plus four more aft, with a total of 24 torpedoes. But where they really shined was their preparedness for long-range patrols. Gato and later boats had showers and washing machines for the crews, plus a freezer so they could eat steak and ice cream for the entire patrol. They were much better to live in.

[Type XXIII]

Nihon Kaigun (http://www.combinedfleet.com/) (Combined fleet) is an excellent online resource for anything concerning IJN during WWII.

The Japanese submarine fleet was definitely the most diverse during WWII, and they also had some very decent boat types. (Un)fortunately (depends on the point of view) few boats and lousy doctrines meant they achieved little.

[Tonnage_Ace]

I just watched Tora! Tora! Tora! yesterday and when it got to the part where the Japanese midget submarine gets shot at I wondered if that might be in the game...the devs could be making us think that we play the American side when we might begin our careers with the Pearl Harbor attack and then in Japanese waters fending off carriers and such...