Getting the SU-24s to Engage

[SeaQueen]

I've even tried a script to force it. Frequently they get close enough to shoot their missiles, but they never do. What's going on? Is there a way to make them more aggressive?

[FERdeBOER]

If you tell me what kind of situation are you planning I can "reproduce" it and try to see what happen and how to resolve it.

I mean, are you trying to attack a ship, a terrain building...?

[FERdeBOER]

I made some small tests.

A formation of 3 SU24 with a transit tactic. No scripts.
Two "enemys", one ship and one 10 story building from another side.

The SUs attacked both of them, with the weapon loadout on "ASUW" (more aggresive against the ship) and also with "strike".

So my question is: have you the 1.03beta patch? Seems that the patch solves all those AI inactivity.

[SeaQueen]

I made some small tests.

A formation of 3 SU24 with a transit tactic. No scripts.
Two "enemys", one ship and one 10 story building from another side.

The SUs attacked both of them, with the weapon loadout on "ASUW" (more aggresive against the ship) and also with "strike".

So my question is: have you the 1.03beta patch? Seems that the patch solves all those AI inactivity.

Huuum... I'll have to try that.

[SeaQueen]

So my question is: have you the 1.03beta patch? Seems that the patch solves all those AI inactivity.

Tried the new patch, that didn't work although they were a little bit more aggressive. They didn't run so far after getting shot at.

Their target was an ESG consisting of a 2 DDGs, 2 FFGs, a CG, an LHD and two LPDs. I'm beginning to think that the problem is a tactical one, and that I need to have the SU-24s engage as a divided force instead of as a single group in hopes that one of them will manage to get close enough to engage one of the high value units (the gators).

[LuftWolf]

There seems to be some kind of coded hardcap on the number of missiles that any one side can fire at a target.

You may have some luck putting them all on different sides that have an alliance in the editor.

That's part of the trick to getting SSGN's to engage effectively when there are more than one of them.

[FERdeBOER]

Tried the new patch, that didn't work although they were a little bit more aggressive. They didn't run so far after getting shot at.


Yes, On my tests the SUs aproached a lot before shooting.
As the test were with objetives with no defense systems, I did not noticed that :shifty:

I will try now with a convoy as you describe.

I'm beginning to think that the problem is a tactical one, and that I need to have the SU-24s engage as a divided force instead of as a single group in hopes that one of them will manage to get close enough to engage one of the high value units (the gators)

Yes, maybe you need to use a different tactic to penetrate the escorts. :hmm:

When I try more things I will tell you.

[SeaQueen]

Yes, On my tests the SUs aproached a lot before shooting.
As the test were with objetives with no defense systems, I did not noticed that :shifty:


What is that? It ought to be just, "I see 'em, I shoot 'em, I go home," for aircraft.

When I try more things I will tell you.

Thanks. My imagination is shot on this one.

[SeaQueen]

You may have some luck putting them all on different sides that have an alliance in the editor.

I tried that actually after reading your thread. I think the problem with fighters is less that they won't shoot enough, it's that they noodle around a lot before shooting. By that time, the ships have already fired a salvo of a dozen or so missiles, scattering the force and destroying it's effectiveness.

[FERdeBOER]

Well, after a few tries, I can say that, if you put Backfires instead SU24, they shoot from a very far distance (more than 30miles) and when all missiles are expended (4 each plane?), they return to base. :yep:

If you set the altitude of the SU24 very low, close to the sea, they can get closer to the objetive without being shooted, but not enought to shoot. :dead:

My next tries will be with various SU24 groups from different sides.

[FERdeBOER]

Hmmm, tried with various groups attacking at same time (same side and different allied sides), with SU33, F18, F15... and the Backfires are the only ones who makes sinks. :nope:
You put a great barrier with those escorts ;)

One time a SU33 get closer, really close... 2 miles! and didn't attack. :stare:

In my opinion you have two options: simulate the attack with a damage script, or use backfires. :hmm:

[MaHuJa]

Only damage script I ever noticed was the ability to put the players systems out of commision.

But maybe you can have a script using the engage command? How does that work?

[Mau]

Then there is something wrong!!!

I don`t want to have a script to simulate an attack

Did we disregard the ``Above Water Warfare`` aspect and just looked at the ASW aspect with ``Dangerous Water`` or what?

Hopefully not

[FERdeBOER]

Well, in fact the SU24s attack, but they have to be very close to do so. At least for attacking surface ships, when I tried with buildings the attack range was greater, but not much.

But this problem does not happen with Backfires. They attack from long distance.

And ships vs ships or sub vs ship works well too. Long distance attacks with missiles.

But with fighters... :nope:

[XabbaRus]

Well look at the doctrine and the database and see why Backfires attack from farther out then Su-24s?

I bet there is a minimum range.

[LuftWolf]

I should have checked this for you earlier.

The longest ranged missile on the SU-24 for ASM's is the AS-14 with a max range of just under 8000m.

I recommend that all mission designers download Ludger's editor from www.subguru.com and learn how to use it. ;)

Just about all of these questions can be answered by checking the weapon parameters.

[Mau]

Now I feel better!

So may be we should try with a Mirage F-1 for exemple.
Or an SU-27/33 from China

They should have longer range missiles!!!

[SeaQueen]

I should have checked this for you earlier.

The longest ranged missile on the SU-24 for ASM's is the AS-14 with a max range of just under 8000m.

I recommend that all mission designers download Ludger's editor from www.subguru.com and learn how to use it. ;)

Just about all of these questions can be answered by checking the weapon parameters.

Doh! 8km totally disagrees with what's published in the USNI Reference!

[SeaQueen]

Now I feel better!

So may be we should try with a Mirage F-1 for exemple.
Or an SU-27/33 from China

They should have longer range missiles!!!

According to the USNI Reference they DO!

[LuftWolf]

Don't ever trust the USNI. :-j

The reference contradicts itself, the database, and many third party sources.

[LuftWolf]

Incidentially, the database value of 8000m for the AS-14 Kedge is in accordance with fas.org and the USNI Reference value of 18nm is quite off.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/as-14.htm

Interesting that SCS uses the USNI Reference data as a reason they can't change any number of things in the database. :hmm:

[SeaQueen]

Incidentially, the database value of 8000m for the AS-14 Kedge is in accordance with fas.org and the USNI Reference value of 18nm is quite off.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/as-14.htm

Interesting that SCS uses the USNI Reference data as a reason they can't change any number of things in the database. :hmm:

I'm not sure I believe the USNI number or the FAS number. I'll look it up tomorrow in Janes and check that. They DO design these missiles to be effective, ya know? :-)

[LuftWolf]

All publicly available sources report 8-10km.

I'd be interested to see what a couple of thousands of dollars worth of defense intelligence subscription access will get you. So let me know. :)

[SeaQueen]

All publicly available sources report 8-10km.

I'd be interested to see what a couple of thousands of dollars worth of defense intelligence subscription access will get you. So let me know. :)

I'm as curious as you are. I use globalsecurity.org and fas.org frequently at work, when I just want to do something quick, but I've also learned not to trust it with my life either.

They're all probably quoting each other. It's as if we all got in a circle, one of us told the person in front of us the range was 8-10km, and then that person told the next person, etc. Then, when it got back to the first person he said, "See! I'm right! That guy said it was 8-10km too!"

The thing is, I'm wondering where the heck they got 8-10km anyhow, because really the range of a missile can vary considerably based on launch speed, altitude, etc.

The other thing I'm wondering is, if that IS in fact a good unclass range estimate, nobody in their right mind would plan stake the defense of their nation on a missile they'll never get close enough to use. Clearly, other loadouts are likely for the ASuW mission. So, the next thing is to find out what other anti-ship cruise missiles the SU-24 is capable of carrying according to unclass sources.

EDIT:

AH HA! The SU-24 can carry the AS-11 super-sonic cruise missile which according to FAS has a range of 120km. Too bad it's not modelled. *growl*

[TLAM Strike]

So, the next thing is to find out what other anti-ship cruise missiles the SU-24 is capable of carrying according to unclass sources. They can carry the AS-11 'Kilter' ASM.

also they can carry
AS-7 'Kerry'
AS-10 'Karen'
AS-9 'Kyle'
AS-11 'Kilter'
AS-17 'Krypton'
AS-13 'Kingbolt'

[LuftWolf]

I plan on doing a reworking of aircraft loadouts and a few other non-submarine, non-sensor related issues for LWAMI 3.01.

Sorry for not doing it earlier, but we have been up to our ears in "other" issues. Stay tuned, we'll have it! :up:

[Miika]

To ensure a mission-critical kill for an airstrike I´ve used "transit" for 1 or 2 aircraft, and then after a pass the "add explosion" and "remove platform".

But there are, indeed, some problems with aircraft. Like TLAM Strike said, SU-24 has a wide variety of weapons. Also, some aircraft (British Harrier, for instance) seem to fall off the sky unless given very high speeds etc. (This may have been fixed in the latest patch, I'm not sure.)

[Mau]

Yes TLAM is right about the possible loadouts of the SU-24.

Now are those modeled in the game?

Hope so

Have to check

I will have a ``definite answer for the `` AS-14 range

[Mau]

Yes TLAM is right about the possible loadouts of the SU-24.

Now are those modeled in the game?

Hope so

Have to check

I will have a ``definite answer for the `` AS-14 range

[Mau]

Yes TLAM is right about the possible loadouts of the SU-24.

Now are those modeled in the game?

Hope so

Have to check

I will have a ``definite answer for the `` AS-14 range

[Mau]

Finally for the range of the AS-14:

5 to 6NM in all the references i have seen

So the 8KM makes sense

That is probably why then we have hard time to have the SU-24 to engage.

But yes, it should have as well AS-9, AS-11, AS-13 and AS-18
Again depending which country that this SU-24 is coming from

[SeaQueen]

Finally for the range of the AS-14:

5 to 6NM in all the references i have seen

So the 8KM makes sense

That is probably why then we have hard time to have the SU-24 to engage.

But yes, it should have as well AS-9, AS-11, AS-13 and AS-18
Again depending which country that this SU-24 is coming from

Yeah... I checked in Jane's and it was actually a little more conservative, 6-8km. Bummer.

I would prefer to not constrain aircraft loadouts to countries too strongly, because it opens up the possibilities for "what if?" scenarios. Also, transfers of arms and technologies occur all the time, so the information that the decision to allow one country a weapon on its SU-24s and not anothers can quickly become obsolete.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

The thing is, I'm wondering where the heck they got 8-10km anyhow, because really the range of a missile can vary considerably based on launch speed, altitude, etc.

Some, but apparently not so much for a land-attack weapon depending on its profile.

AH HA! The SU-24 can carry the AS-11 super-sonic cruise missile which according to FAS has a range of 120km. Too bad it's not modelled. *growl*

Get your butt in the database and fix it. I recommend DWEdit. I've tried it and its pretty easy to use. Just remember to click Apply in the Dialog boxes and then make sure you save - then kiss all your Save files goodbye for you've just rendered them obsolete, and expect problems in multiplayer...

The AS-11 is not a ASM anyway. It is AFAIK a ARM. The ship needs to be forced to turn on its radar, and constantly. It does have a INS, but a ship moves, so if the radar goes off...

On the AS-14, there is also an alternate minority viewpoint in my experience that says that the laser variant of the weapon is only 8-10km, but the EO ones (TV/IR) may have 20-30km, so there may be some base to the 18nm version too. I presume if this is true that the implementation of laser-guidance on the Kh-29/AS-14 is relatively crude (example: bang-bang), thus wasting a lot of energy. This is the modeling used in Su-27 Flanker 2. Try this if you like. Since your main target will be ships or installations, it should be easy on the EO guidance system.

In any case, maritime antishipping work is not exactly the Su-24's primary duty, nor is it the AS-14's. The AS-14 is the Russian version of the Maverick. It is meant for a Su-24 to carry low level to blow up some bridge at close range, not a ship. So for SeaQueen, it is effective - it just wasn't engineered for long-range antiship work and it shows.

Western-sized anti-shipping missiles are somewhat rare in the Russian arsenal anyway. Only in the last years of the Cold War, if that, did they start thinking about that with the Kh-35/SS-N-25.

Before that, a "small" antiship missile might be the P-120/SS-N-9 Siren, which weighs an amazing 3000kg, and those are supposed to be sub missiles anyway. The rest tend to have 1-ton warhead and weigh far too much to carry on anything less than a full Bomber.

So What the Su-24 uses are really a bunch of short and medium range land-attack missiles that are, in DW, pressed into service as antiship weapons.

[SeaQueen]

In any case, maritime antishipping work is not exactly the Su-24's primary duty, nor is it the AS-14's.

Actually, it depends on which country we're talking about. In the scenario I'm putting together, SU-24s ARE that country's front line, universal attack aircraft. Lots of nations buy Russian aircraft and plan to use them in ways radically different from how they were intended, and they're often effective.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

In any case, maritime antishipping work is not exactly the Su-24's primary duty, nor is it the AS-14's.

Actually, it depends on which country we're talking about. In the scenario I'm putting together, SU-24s ARE that country's front line, universal attack aircraft.

I'd suggest that the AS-13/18 TV-guided ASMs along with the AS-17 ARM/ASM are the closest that plane has. Maybe you can assume they carry the AS-20/SS-N-25 as well.

Get into the database and set something like that up, and then pack the database package into the Zip. Put a README that says for the game to function properly, you must use the Database provided. See if that works.