Positive Hurricane Rita reactions?

[Abraham]

I have been away for a couple of days (the 3rd Intercontinental Subsim & Subclub Meeting!) and have missed a few threads.
I found out by now that hurricane Rita took very few if any lives.
But can anybody point out the thread where the world expresses it's admiration for the smooth evacuation of hundreds of thousands by the civil authorities, the efficient use of the National Guard in search & rescue operations, the quick reaction of FEMA and the full attention that President Bush paid to a situation that might have turned into a disaster?
I think it is pretty unique how quickly after hurricane Kathrina the criticism was digested, the lessons learned and brought into practice.
Well done USA!

[Rockstar]

global cooling

Rita intensified as it crossed over warmer waters by absorbing the heat from it. Since the oceans contain only so much heat the hurricane soon weakens and leaves in it's wake cooler temperatures.

ta da! :know:

[Rockstar]

ok how about a lessons learned from Katrina helped make way for a better organized response to Rita.

[Rockstar]

After all, the party in New Orleans never really stops - during Southern Decadence weekend or any time of year. August 31 - September 5, 2005.

That is until Katrina (August 29th) and Rita made an appearence. Good thing? I think so.

http://www.frenchquarter.com/events/Decadence.php

[Skybird]

I liked this comment by the author, as it is descriptive of the different mentalities, not critizising.


>>>Katrina prompts charity not change

By Justin Webb
BBC, Washington

When Hurricane Katrina devastated the city of New Orleans three weeks ago, the authorities were criticised for not doing enough for those least able to help themselves.

With the spotlight shining on the country's social and economic inequalities, our correspondent asks whether there will be pressure for change.

For millions of people on America's Gulf Coast it has been another miserable weekend, with Hurricane Rita tearing into buildings, snatching where it can at both property and life.

Three weeks ago I was in the Gulf states following Hurricane Katrina.

Speeding along a relatively unscathed motorway between the wonderfully exotic-sounding towns of Pascagoula and Biloxi, I switched on the car radio and heard the tobacco-stained drawl of a southern politician comparing the destruction in his district to that of Hiroshima.

Tasteless I thought. A typical example of American inability to see that suffering in other nations at other times dwarfs anything the average American ever sees.

Then we arrived in Biloxi, Mississippi.

There are streets where nothing stands, corners where one house or one wall has survived. Everything around it is matchwood.

The destruction is awe inspiring. After 10 minutes in the town, the Hiroshima comparison seems less jarring.



Reason for revolution?

Rita and Katrina have both been events of massive force, sweeping away an awful lot, but Katrina - because of the ghastly failure of the authorities to prepare and to rescue those at risk - is thought by some to have done more than physical damage.

Bill Clinton is among many eminent Americans who wonder whether Katrina's biggest impact might be psychological, political.

The real question - putting it baldly - is whether there is going to be a revolution.

Will the American social and economic system - which creates the wealth that pays for billionaires' private jets, and the poverty which does not allow for a bus fare out of New Orleans - be addressed?

It has been tinkered with before of course, sometimes as a result of natural disasters. There were for instance plenty of buses on hand for this week's Rita evacuation.

But the system's fundamentals - no limit on how far you can fly and little limit on how low you can fall - remain as intact as they were in the San Francisco gold rush.



'Infant welfare state'

In the book of From Our Own Correspondent dispatches that marks this programme's 50th anniversary, my illustrious predecessor, Charles Wheeler, wrote that one of the tragedies of the Vietnam War had been, as he put it, "the dismemberment of America's infant welfare state."


Fellow Americans opened their homes and their businesses to help hurricane victims

"The war", he said, "stopped social reform in its tracks and today, with the budget deficit huge and growing, there is no prospect that a windfall of money released by the war can suddenly be applied to the needs of the poor in the cities."

Charles was writing in 1973. The US did recover. The economy was rescued. Money was made in very large amounts. But the poor still did not receive that windfall and they were never going to.

Will my five-year-old daughter Martha - who wants to be a broadcaster, she says, because she likes shouting at people - be writing in 50 years time for the 100th anniversary edition of this programme that she lives in a workers' paradise; that the infant welfare state that Charles referred to has come to pass?

I doubt it.



Giving nature

My children attend the same school that Charles Wheeler's daughter Shereen graced in the early 1970s.

In the last few weeks my e-mail inbox has been filled with earnest messages from fellow parents about places we can give money to victims of Katrina, drop off teddy bears we no longer want, dispatch clothes for which we have grown too fat and so on.


Many are giving their time as well as their money

No e-mail in those days of course, but I bet Charles got parchment scrolls, or whatever they used then, with lists of good causes to which he could contribute.

Charity is part of the warp and weft of American life and it is telling that Hurricane Katrina has encouraged an outpouring of giving on a scale never seen before.

Americans are cross with the government and disappointed with the response from Washington, but they have not sat on their hands and waited for the government to sort itself out. Much the opposite.

Americans have given with unbridled enthusiasm and generosity.

Is that not something governments do?

Americans do not think so and never will.

This is unquestionably a source of strength and spine in troubled times, but boy does it put a dampener on revolution.

Charity ameliorates it, softens blows, pours oil on troubled waters. It does not lead to social change.

Inequality is a part of American life and so is self reliance. Nothing I have seen in the last few weeks alters that.

American government is a mess. American bureaucracy and red tape is a national shame. American political clout around the world has been reduced by the Katrina fiasco.

But in Biloxi three weeks ago I watched a man with a chainsaw and two handguns beginning the process of rebuilding his house.

He will be joined by others after this weekend's devastation. They represent an America that Charles Wheeler would recognise instantly, and even now after the flood, is little changed. <<<


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4275818.stm

[Abraham]

Well spoken, Skybird...
Isn't America a great nation of immediate action, improvisation, generosity and self-help?
One thing is for sure: in Europe we would still been talking and talking. in the rest of the world talking would not even have started...
:up:

[Skybird]

Well spoken, Skybird...
Isn't America a great nation of immediate action, improvisation, generosity and self-help?
One thing is for sure: in Europe we would still been talking and talking. in the rest of the world talking would not even have started...
:up:

During the pretty massive Oder flood three years ago the private initiative of local residents was working hand in hand with first class support by authorities, bundeswehr, technisches hilfswerk, and private initiatives, it all went very fast, and flexible. there was no talking in the face of the catastrophe (but afterwards :) ), but very quick reaction on all levels. because we had the infrastructure both in social and communal senses, and organization to react so quickly - and this was no small flood, it really was big, several villages got destroyed more or less competely inG ernay, and eastern neighbouring states. The THW was active in NO until Rita approached and complained about especially this lack of infrastructure, bureaucracy raising needless hurdles, one hand not knowing what the other does (noit to mentioin not to accept French medications :nope: ). This is the result if everything is left to private initiative only. For orchestrating such a huge effort you NEED existing structures, and a collective sense that help is not voluntary charity only, but a social obligation that is demanded by law. Private organizations cannot come up with these. They remain relatively amateurish. You see that very often in desater areas and warzones woldwide where half a dozen or a full dozen of aid organisations work close to each other - but the one not knowing what the other was doing, so that effort reach one areas twice and three times, while other areas get blanked out completely. who is the one to regultate and orchgestrate and to inform and to protect? Military, for it is in possession of structures in the widest sense of the word. I think it is no random event that GWB now presents himself in military HQ to impress the cameras, not in the HQ of FEMA. Billions of dollars pumped into it, and than this total failure. If I were an amerian, I really would be pissed of FEMA.

No, I disagree with you. Katrina ripped off a mask, and we saw strong but isolated individual efforts, but the bankruptcy of communal structures and binding responsebilities - because the lack of these. I cannot see that as a shining example for Europe, sorry. Charity instead of social obligation. Okay, if the rich want it like that, fine, they evade beeing obligatory responsible by that. I wonder if really all of the poor at the receiving end of this social battlefield are of the same opinion.



>>>Viewpoint: Katrina's invisible victims
By Marissa Kantor
Writer for US publication The Revealer

The post-Katrina debate taking place everywhere from Congress to the family dinner table - about what went wrong and who is to blame, has included again and again one word: racism.

The definition, though, has been very race-specific: black versus white. It's a valid debate. Unless, of course, your skin is brown.

That blacks were "looting" while whites were "finding" has been well circulated on the Internet in a fierce cyber image-war.

What the mainstream media has neglected to mention - at least in its initial discussions of the role that race played in preparation for, and clean-up after Katrina - is that the Latinos are "hiding," many in churches where they feel protected, or in Mexican and Honduran restaurants.

Over 100 Latin American immigrants now call La Iglesia Lugar de Sanidad (Healing Place Church) in Gonzales, Louisiana home. They use their reverence to ask God for help since they are unsure who to trust outside the church walls.

Latinos - especially Hondurans - are no strangers to natural disaster.

After fleeing Honduras in the wake of the devastation caused by Hurricane Mitch in 1998 - which killed thousands, left thousands missing, and affected millions from Guatemala to Costa Rica - many Hondurans ended up in the port city of New Orleans in search of that "better life" that El Norte seemed to offer.



Invisible citizens

Approximately 150,000 Hondurans live in Louisiana, most in New Orleans. Estimates of Mexicans living in or around New Orleans range from 40,000 to 100,000. And other groups, including Salvadorans and Brazilians, also number in the tens of thousands.

The Pew Hispanic Center estimates (conservatively) that 20,000 to 35,000 of these Latinos are illegal immigrants or undocumented workers.

Even the governments of Mexico and Honduras are stumped as to where their citizens are hiding.

In the face of our worst natural and national disaster ever, we find ourselves face-to-face with a basic discussion in American society: Just what is an American?

They have set up what they are calling "mobile consulates" in Baton Rouge, Louisiana (Honduran and Mexican) and in Mobile, Alabama (Mexican), but very few people are turning to their governments for aid.

Fearing deportation, Latinos - many of whom are illegal immigrants - prefer instead to seek shelter and support in Latino-owned businesses that they learn about through word of mouth.

They sneak out at night to look for food and water since many cannot understand the Federal Emergency Management Agency's (Fema's) English-language public service announcements about where to go for services.



Increasing tensions

The American discussion of who is worthy of "saving" in the face of disaster - one that we thought we had at least tabled after 11 September, is back in full force.

Fema spokeswoman Joanna Gonzalez, answering pleas from Presidents Fox of Mexico and Maduro of Honduras not to prosecute illegal immigrants, offered one answer: "We want to provide food, water, shelter and medical supplies to everyone. No one should be afraid to accept our offers to provide safety."

Ms Gonzalez originally ignored follow-up enquiries as to whether or not this meant that illegal immigrants would not be reported or prosecuted, simply repeating her form-letter statement.

The lawmakers on Capitol Hill came up with an even more interesting response - the Department of Homeland Security issued a 45-day moratorium on fining employers who hire undocumented workers.

They cite the fact that many legal residents may have lost their papers in the hurricane, and should not be penalised for it.

At the same time, DHS amended their original statement - while they would save a drowning illegal immigrant, they would not "turn a blind eye to the law" if they later found out his immigration status.

These policies have created tension in the Gulf Coast and throughout the nation.

Some Latino civil rights workers argue that this is a clear indication that the US Government is creating policy aimed to serve a select group and to ignore or prosecute others.



Dispensable labour

While the "deserving poor" in shelters are eligible to approach Fema, social security and Red Cross representatives to receive food, water, debit cards and food stamps, Latinos stand behind and watch.

They are trained to avoid authority at all costs. Even in the face of a disaster like Katrina.

Opponents of illegal immigration view the policies as a direct affront to the thousands of displaced American citizens and legal residents who are searching for a job, any job.

If the law lets an employer hire an illegal Latino, then one less job is available for a true American, they argue.

In the United States, in the face of our worst natural and national disaster ever, we find ourselves face-to-face with a basic discussion in American society: Just what is an American?

Defining the protection-worthy and the dispensable has become another job in the relief efforts.

Blacks are complaining that they are seen as inferior to whites; Latinos are too scared to complain at all, or don't speak the right language to do so.

Meanwhile, we are sending them back in to clean up our cities, clad in dust masks and rags and with the promise of a 15-dollar-an-hour job, until we decide to report them and send them back to their own countries.

God bless America, indeed. Que Dios nos bendiga. <<<

from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4266892.stm

The Revealer is a publication of the New York University Department of Journalism and New York University's Center for Religion and Media.

[bradclark1]

The american media made the black vs. white story. Pure and simple. They strive for sensationalism even in a time of disaster. You never heard anything from blacks in the other two states. New Orleans is predominatly black. Thats it.
What was wrong was that Fema was unable to multi-task(buzz word). Pretty simple statement but I think that hits the nail on the head and the interviews with FEMA's director clearly showed why. The guy was clearly out of his depth. That coupled with the mayors and govenors piss poor performance made a disaster even worse. Warning orders to the military should have been issued four or five days before the hurricane even made landfall when they knew how big an area it was lightly to hit.
Everyone knows I'm anti Bush but without that the responsibility of the
dismal goverment performance should lay squarely on the presidents desk. He is the man who installed these people in their positions. Some might say thats 20-20 hindsight but it isn't. Thats why people get payed these big paychecks is to think ahead. Prior planning is the name of the game. Even the military generals are at fault for not taking the initiative to give the units warning orders when they figured it was a given that the military would more than likely be mobilized.

[August]

The american media made the black vs. white story. Pure and simple. They strive for sensationalism even in a time of disaster. You never heard anything from blacks in the other two states. New Orleans is predominatly black. Thats it.
What was wrong was that Fema was unable to multi-task(buzz word). Pretty simple statement but I think that hits the nail on the head and the interviews with FEMA's director clearly showed why. The guy was clearly out of his depth. That coupled with the mayors and govenors pee poor performance made a disaster even worse. Warning orders to the military should have been issued four or five days before the hurricane even made landfall when they knew how big an area it was lightly to hit.
Everyone knows I'm anti Bush but without that the responsibility of the
dismal goverment performance should lay squarely on the presidents desk. He is the man who installed these people in their positions. Some might say thats 20-20 hindsight but it isn't. Thats why people get payed these big paychecks is to think ahead. Prior planning is the name of the game. Even the military generals are at fault for not taking the initiative to give the units warning orders when they figured it was a given that the military would more than likely be mobilized.

Five days before it's (second) landfall hurricane Katrina was northwest of Cuba and could have hit anywhere along the gulf from florida to mexico and at the time had sustained winds of only 45 to 60 knots.

Now I know you're anti Bush and like Skybird will say just about anything to badmouth him, but he didn't install (to use your word) the NO mayor or Louisiana Governor nor should he be blamed for their failings. You have a point about the FEMA director but the Feds are there to back up the state, not the other way around.

You're right about one thing though. Hindsight is 20-20...

[August]

Interesting article from the New Orleans Times Picayune

Monday, September 26, 2005

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09_26.html#082732

Rumors of deaths greatly exaggerated
Widely reported attacks false or unsubstantiated

6 bodies found at Dome; 4 at Convention Center


By Brian Thevenot
and Gordon Russell
Staff writers


After five days managing near-riots, medical horrors and unspeakable living conditions inside the Superdome, Louisiana National Guard Col. Thomas Beron prepared to hand over the dead to representatives of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.


Following days of internationally reported killings, rapes and gang violence inside the Dome, the doctor from FEMA - Beron doesn't remember his name - came prepared for a grisly scene: He brought a refrigerated 18-wheeler and three doctors to process bodies.

"I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalls the doctor saying.

The real total was six, Beron said.

Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide, said Beron, who personally oversaw the turning over of bodies from a Dome freezer, where they lay atop melting bags of ice. State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other four bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it. Both sources said no one had been killed inside.

At the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center, just four bodies were recovered, despites reports of corpses piled inside the building. Only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, said health and law enforcement officials.

That the nation's front-line emergency management believed the body count would resemble that of a bloody battle in a war is but one of scores of examples of myths about the Dome and the Convention Center treated as fact by evacuees, the media and even some of New Orleans' top officials, including the mayor and police superintendent. As the fog of warlike conditions in Hurricane Katrina's aftermath has cleared, the vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence, according to key military, law enforcement, medical and civilian officials in positions to know.

"I think 99 percent of it is bulls---," said Sgt. 1st Class Jason Lachney, who played a key role in security and humanitarian work inside the Dome. "Don't get me wrong, bad things happened, but I didn't see any killing and raping and cutting of throats or anything. ... Ninety-nine percent of the people in the Dome were very well-behaved."

Dr. Louis Cataldie, the state Health and Human Services Department administrator overseeing the body recovery operation, said his teams were inundated with false reports about the Dome and Convention Center.

"We swept both buildings several times, because we kept getting reports of more bodies there," Cataldie said. "But it just wasn't the case."

Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities had confirmed only four murders in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina - making it a typical week in a city that anticipated more than 200 homicides this year. Jordan expressed outrage at reports from many national media outlets that suffering flood victims had turned into mobs of unchecked savages.

"I had the impression that at least 40 or 50 murders had occurred at the two sites," he said. "It's unfortunate we saw these kinds of stories saying crime had taken place on a massive scale when that wasn't the case. And they (national media outlets) have done nothing to follow up on any of these cases, they just accepted what people (on the street) told them. ... It's not consistent with the highest standards of journalism."

As floodwaters forced tens of thousands of evacuees into the Dome and Convention Center, news of unspeakable acts poured out of the nation's media: evacuees firing at helicopters trying to save them; women, children and even babies raped with abandon; people killed for food and water; a 7-year-old raped and killed at the Convention Center. Police, according to their chief, Eddie Compass, found themselves in multiple shootouts inside both shelters, and were forced to race toward muzzle flashes through the dark to disarm the criminals; snipers supposedly fired at doctors and soldiers from downtown high-rises.

In interviews with Oprah Winfrey, Compass reported rapes of "babies," and Mayor Ray Nagin spoke of "hundreds of armed gang members" killing and raping people inside the Dome. Unidentified evacuees told of children stepping over so many bodies, "we couldn't count."

The picture that emerged was one of the impoverished, masses of flood victims resorting to utter depravity, randomly attacking each other, as well as the police trying to protect them and the rescue workers trying to save them. Nagin told Winfrey the crowd has descended to an "almost animalistic state."

Four weeks after the storm, few of the widely reported atrocities have been backed with evidence. The piles of bodies never materialized, and soldiers, police officers and rescue personnel on the front lines say that although anarchy reigned at times and people suffered unimaginable indignities, most of the worst crimes reported at the time never happened.

Military, law enforcement and medical workers agree that the flood of evacuees - about 30,000 at the Dome and an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 at the Convention Center - overwhelmed their security personnel. The 400 to 500 soldiers in the Dome could have been easily overrun by increasingly agitated crowds, but that never happened, said Col. James Knotts, a midlevel commander there. Security was nonexistent at the Convention Center, which was never designated as a shelter. Authorities provided no food, water or medical care until troops secured the building the Friday after the storm.

While the Convention Center saw plenty of mischief, including massive looting and isolated gunfire, and many inside cowered in fear, the hordes of evacuees for the most part did not resort to violence, as legend has it.

"Everything was embellished, everything was exaggerated," said Deputy Police Superintendent Warren Riley. "If one guy said he saw six bodies, then another guy the same six, and another guy saw them - then that became 18."


Soldier shot - by himself


Inside the Dome, where National Guardsmen performed rigorous security checks before allowing anyone inside, only one shooting has been verified. Even that incident, in which Louisiana Guardsman Chris Watt of the 527th Engineer Battalion was injured, has been widely misreported, said Maj. David Baldwin, who led the team of soldiers who arrested a suspect.

Watt was attacked inside one of the Dome's locker rooms, which he entered with another soldier. In the darkness, as he walked through about six inches of water, Watt was attacked with a metal rod, a piece of a cot. But the bullet that penetrated Watt's leg came from his own gun - he accidentally shot himself in the commotion. The attacker never took his gun from him, Baldwin said. New Orleans police investigated the matter fully and sent the suspect to jail in Breaux Bridge, Baldwin said.

As for other shootings, Baldwin said, "We actively patrolled 24 hours a day, and nobody heard another shot."

Doug Thornton, regional vice president of SMG, which manages the Dome, walked the complex from before the storm until the final evacuation and kept a meticulous journal. In a Sept. 9 interview, he said he heard reports of rapes and killings, but they were unconfirmed and came from evacuees and security officials.

"We walked through the facility every day, and we didn't see all this that was being reported," said Thornton, one of about 35 Dome employees who rode out Katrina in the building and lived there in the days after the storm hit. "We never felt threatened. It's hard to determine what's real and what's not real."


No victims


Inside the Convention Center, the rumors of widespread violence have proved hard to substantiate, as well, though the masses of evacuees endured terrifying and inhumane conditions.

Jimmie Fore, vice president of the state authority that runs the Convention Center, stayed in the building with a core group of 35 employees until Sept. 1, the Thursday after Katrina. He was appalled by what he saw. Thugs hotwired 75 forklifts and electric carts and looted food and booze from every room in the building, but he said he never saw any violent crimes committed, and neither did any of his employees. Some, however, did report seeing armed men roaming the building, and Fore said he heard gunshots in the distance on at about six occasions.

NOPD Capt. Jeff Winn's 20-member SWAT team responded on about 10 occasions to calls from the Convention Center, usually after reports of shots being fired. The group found people huddled in the fetal position, lying flat on the ground to avoid bullets or running for the exits. They also heard stories of gang rapes, armed robberies and other violent crimes, but no victims ever came forward while his officers were in the building, he said.

"What's true and what's not, we don't really know," he said.

Rumors of rampant violence at the Convention Center prompted Louisiana National Guard Lt. Col. Jacques Thibodeaux put together a 1,000-man force of soldiers and police in full battle gear to secure the center Sept. 2 at about noon.

It took only 20 minutes to take control, and soldiers met no resistance, Thibodeaux said. What the soldiers found - elderly people and infants near death without food, water and medicine; crowds living in filth - shocked them more than anything they'd seen in combat zones overseas. But they found no evidence, witnesses or victims of any killings, rapes or beatings, Thibodeaux said.

Another commander at the scene, Lt. Col. John Edwards of the Arkansas National Guard, said the crowd welcomed the soldiers. "It reminded me of the liberation of France in World War II. There were people cheering; one boy even saluted," he said. "We never - never once - encountered any hostility."

One widely circulated tale, told to The Times-Picayune by a slew of evacuees and two Arkansas National Guardsmen, held that "30 or 40 bodies" were stored in a Convention Center freezer. But a formal Arkansas Guard review of the matter later found that no soldier had actually seen the corpses, and that the information came from rumors in the food line for military, police and rescue workers in front of Harrah's New Orleans Casino, said Edwards, who conducted the review.

It's possible more than four people died at the Convention Center. Fore, the center's vice president, said he saw another body outside the building early in the first week after the storm, covered in a shroud on the pavement along Julia Street, near the back of the Convention Center. It's unclear whether that body ended up in the nearby food service entrance, where the four confirmed bodies were found later.

Also, several news organizations reported the body of 91-year-old Booker T. Harris, which sat covered in a chair on Convention Center Boulevard for several days after he died on the back of a truck while being evacuated.

Just one of the dead appeared to be the victim of foul play, said Winn, one of few law enforcement officers who spent any time patrolling the Convention Center before it was secured. Winn, who did the final sweep of the building, said one body appeared to have stab wounds, but he could not be sure. Baldwin also said only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, apparently referring to the same body as Winn described. Bob Johannessen, spokesman for the Department of Health and Hospitals, also confirmed just one suspected homicide at the Convention Center, though he said the victim had been shot, not stabbed.

A Washington Post report quoted another soldier who concluded that three of the four people appeared to have been beaten to death, including an older woman in a wheelchair.

But Spc. Mikel Brooks, an Arkansas Guardsman who said he wheeled the woman's dead body into the food service entrance, said she appeared to have died of natural causes. Brooks went on to say that the woman had expired sitting next to her husband, who shocked him by asking him to bring the wheelchair back.

The Post also cited evacuee Tony Cash and three other unnamed sources saying a young boy died of an asthma attack, but multiple officials could not confirm that death.


One attack thwarted


Reports of dozens of rapes at both facilities - many allegedly involving small children - may forever remain a question mark. Rape is a notoriously underreported crime under ideal circumstances, and tracking down evidence at this point, with evacuees spread all over the country, would be nearly impossible. The same goes for reports of armed robberies at both sites.

Numerous people told The Times-Picayune that they had witnessed rapes, in particular attacks on two young girls in the Superdome ladies room and the killing of one of them, but police and military officials said they know nothing of such an incident.

Soldiers and police did confirm at least one attempted rape of a child. Riley said a man tried to sexually assault a young girl, but was "beaten up" by civilians and apprehended by police. It was unclear if that incident was the one that gained wide currency among evacuees.

Baldwin, the National Guard commander of a special reaction team patrolling the Dome, also said he knew of only one attempted sexual assault of a child - but the details of his story, while similar, differed somewhat from that of Riley. It was unclear last week whether the two men spoke about the same incident.

Soldiers apprehended the assailant after a "commotion" in the bathroom exposed him, Baldwin said, but he knew nothing about the man being beaten. Furthermore, in a detail that raises questions about whether officials have full knowledge of any sex crimes, Baldwin said his men turned over one alleged child molester to New Orleans police - only to find him again inside the Dome two days later, reportedly attempting to molest other children.

"We ran into the same guy a couple days later," he said. "The crowd came to us and said, 'You better do something with this guy or we're going to do something with him.' ... That kind of re-confirmed (the first allegation), when the crowd came to us saying he was putting his hands on kids."

But other accusations that have gained wide currency are more demonstrably false. For instance, no one found the body of a girl - whose age was estimated at anywhere from 7 to 13 - who, according to multiple reports, was raped and killed with a knife to the throat at the Convention Center.

Many evacuees at the Convention Center the morning of Sept. 3 treated the story as gospel, and ticked off further atrocities: a baby trampled to death, multiple child rapes.

Salvatore Hall, standing on the corner of Julia Street and Convention Center Boulevard that day, just before the evacuation, said, "They raped and killed a 10-year-old in the bathroom."

Neither he nor the many people around him who corroborated the killing had seen it themselves.

Talk of rape and killing inside the Dome was so pervasive that it prompted a steady stream of evacuees to begin leaving Aug. 31, braving thigh-high foul waters on Poydras Street. Many said they were headed back to homes in flooded neighborhoods.

"There's people getting raped and killed in there," said Lisa Washington of Algiers, who had come to the Dome with about 25 relatives and friends. "People are getting diseases. It's like we're in Afghanistan. We're fighting for our lives right now."

One of her relatives nodded. "They've had about 14 rapes in there," he said.


The official word


In many cases, authorities gave credibility to portraits of violence broadcast around the world.

Compass told Winfrey on Sept. 6 that "some of the little babies (are) getting raped" in the Dome. Nagin backed it with his own tale of horrors: ''They have people standing out there, have been in that frickin' Superdome for five days watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people.''

But both men have since pulled back to a degree.

"The information I had at the time, I thought it was credible," Compass said, conceding his earlier statements were false. Asked for the source of the information, Compass said he didn't remember.

Nagin frankly acknowledged that he doesn't know the extent of the mayhem that occurred inside the Dome and the Convention Center - and may never.

"I'm having a hard time getting a good body count," he said.

Compass said rumors had often crippled authorities' response to reported lawlessness, sending badly needed resources to respond to situations that turned out not to exist. He offered his own intensely personal example: The day after the storm, he heard "some civilians" talking about how a band of armed thugs had invaded the Ritz-Carlton hotel and started raping women - including his 24-year-old daughter, who stayed there through the storm. He rushed to the scene only to find that although a group of men had tried to enter the hotel, they weren't armed and were easily turned back by police.

Compass, however, promulgated some of the unfounded rumors himself, in interviews in which he characterized himself and his officers as outgunned warriors taking out armed bands of thugs at every turn.

"People would be shooting at us, and we couldn't shoot back because of the families," Compass told a reporter from the (Bridgeport) Connecticut Post who interviewed him at the Saints' Monday Night Football game in New York, where he was the guest of NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue. "All we could do is rush toward the flash."

Compass added that he and his officers succeeded in wrestling 30 weapons from criminals using the follow-the-muzzle-flash technique, the story said.

"We got 30 that way," Compass was quoted as saying.

Asked about the muzzle-flash story last week, Compass said, "That really happened" to Winn's SWAT team at the Convention Center.

But Winn, when asked about alleged shootouts in a separate interview, said his unit saw muzzle flashes and heard gunshots only one time. Despite aggressively frisking a number of suspects, the team recovered no weapons. His unit never found anyone who had been shot.

Many soldiers and humanitarian workers now agree that although a number of bad actors committed violent or criminal acts, the evacuees responded well considering the hell they endured.

"These people - our people - did nothing wrong," said Sherry Watters of the state Department of Social Services, who was working with the medical unit at the Dome and noted the crowd's mounting frustration. "No human should have to live like that for even a minute."


Crowds pitch in


As the authorities finally mobilized buses to evacuate the Dome on Sept. 2, many evacuees were nearing the breaking point. Baldwin said soldiers could not have controlled the crowd much longer. They ejected a handful of people attempting to start a riot, screaming at soldiers and pushing crowds to revolt.

"We're not prisoners of war - y'all are treating us like evacuees and detainees!" he recalled one of them shouting.

But many others sought to quiet such voices. On the deck outside the Dome on Sept. 1, the day before buses arrived, preachers took it upon themselves to lead the agitated crowd in prayer and song.

"Everybody needs to help the soldiers," Baldwin recalled one of them saying. "We're all family here."

About 15 others joined the medical operation, as people collapsed from heat and exhaustion every few minutes, Baldwin said.

"Some of these guys look like thugs, with pants hanging down around their asses," he said. "But they were working their asses off, grabbing litters and running with people to the (New Orleans) Arena" next door, which housed the medical operation.

As the Dome cleared out Sept. 3, Beron, the National Guard commander, fashioned a plan to deal with the dead. He knew of the six bodies in the freezer, but expected far more. He and an Ohio National Guard commander sent 450 Ohio troops to search every nook of the Dome, top to bottom. They told them to mark locations of bodies on a map of the Dome, to rope off suspected crime scenes, and leave a chemical light sticks next to each one so they could be retrieved later.

"I fully expected to find more bodies, both homicides and natural causes," he said.

They found nothing.


Staff writers Jeff Duncan and Gwen Filosa contributed to this report.

[bradclark1]

Five days before it's (second) landfall hurricane Katrina was northwest of Cuba and could have hit anywhere along the gulf from florida to mexico and at the time had sustained winds of only 45 to 60 knots.
Okay make it two. CONUS(Continental United States) Army are on alert call status within 24 hours or was, it's probably even shorter nowadays. Now thats heavy forces. Thats not your light forces like the 82nd Airborne etc. that are 8 hours if I remember correctly and thats not the ready brigade which is even shorter. Unless things have changed a hell of a lot.

Now I know you're anti Bush and like Skybird will say just about anything to badmouth him
If I would say anything to badmouth him I would have called New Orleans a black and white issue so thats irrelevent.

but he didn't install (to use your word) the NO mayor or Louisiana Governor nor should he be blamed for their failings.
I'm not blaming him for their failings. I'm blaming him for the failings of the federal goverment. Your reasoning is that until the govenor calls for federal aid the goverment should sit on it's butt. I don't think so. Thats not even an excuse. I'll say this again. These various agencies to include Homeland Security and the military are paid a lot of money to do their jobs. Part of that is to think ahead, to plan, coordinate, and delegate. To be preemptive not reactive. Case in point is the prior planning given to Rita.
Maybe it's my military background and knowledge of operations that to me makes what should have happened plain as day. I don't know. But I expect more than knee jerk reactions.

[August]

I'm not blaming him for their failings. I'm blaming him for the failings of the federal goverment. Your reasoning is that until the govenor calls for federal aid the goverment should sit on it's butt. I don't think so. Thats not even an excuse. I'll say this again. These various agencies to include Homeland Security and the military are paid a lot of money to do their jobs. Part of that is to think ahead, to plan, coordinate, and delegate. To be preemptive not reactive. Case in point is the prior planning given to Rita.
Maybe it's my military background and knowledge of operations that to me makes what should have happened plain as day. I don't know. But I expect more than knee jerk reactions.

The President did take the step of declaring the region a disaster area before the hurricane struck, without waiting for Louisiana to ask for it. First time that's ever been done i believe, and on somewhat shaky legal ground too, but there is only so much the Feds can do by law without the state requesting it. As for mobilizing the military in particular, you know that the Federal government can't use troops for domestic law enforcement as that would be a clear violation of the Posse Comitus act.

Now you mention Rita as a case in point, but 99% of the preparation for that emergency was done by the state. If it illustrates anything it demonstrates the difference between a state that has it's act together and one that does not.

Don't get me wrong, the system we have for evacuating large areas and caring for 100's of thousands of refugees can certainly use a rethink, but the problems in New Orleans in particular were due to the levees failing and not the hurricane itself. If you want to assign blame for that you need to look much further back than the Bush administration.

[Abraham]

Five days before it's (second) landfall hurricane Katrina was northwest of Cuba and could have hit anywhere along the gulf from florida to mexico and at the time had sustained winds of only 45 to 60 knots.
Okay make it two. CONUS(Continental United States) Army are on alert call status within 24 hours or was, it's probably even shorter nowadays. Now thats heavy forces. Thats not your light forces like the 82nd Airborne etc. that are 8 hours if I remember correctly and thats not the ready brigade which is even shorter. Unless things have changed a hell of a lot.

Now I know you're anti Bush and like Skybird will say just about anything to badmouth him
If I would say anything to badmouth him I would have called New Orleans a black and white issue so thats irrelevent.

but he didn't install (to use your word) the NO mayor or Louisiana Governor nor should he be blamed for their failings.
I'm not blaming him for their failings. I'm blaming him for the failings of the federal goverment. Your reasoning is that until the govenor calls for federal aid the goverment should sit on it's butt. I don't think so. Thats not even an excuse. I'll say this again. These various agencies to include Homeland Security and the military are paid a lot of money to do their jobs. Part of that is to think ahead, to plan, coordinate, and delegate. To be preemptive not reactive. Case in point is the prior planning given to Rita.
Maybe it's my military background and knowledge of operations that to me makes what should have happened plain as day. I don't know. But I expect more than knee jerk reactions.
My knowledge of U.S. constitutional law is not really up to date and I might be wrong, but I think the Govenor is responsable for all emergency matters within the state and the Federal Government has no authority to operate National Guard units in states if not requested by the Govenor.
While Pres. Bush took full political responsability, you can hardly blame him for policy blunders made by the Mayor and the Govenor...
Things went wrong in the first phase of the disaster. That's exactly the period that the real decisions are made by the local and state goverment.

[Abraham]

@ August:
Don't you know?
News sells, bad news sells better.
We have made up our minds, based upon the CNN impressions.
Don't come and disturb us with after action factual assesments...

[Abraham]

Well spoken, Skybird...
Isn't America a great nation of immediate action, improvisation, generosity and self-help?
One thing is for sure: in Europe we would still been talking and talking. in the rest of the world talking would not even have started...
:up:

During the pretty massive Oder flood three years ago the private initiative of local residents was working hand in hand with first class support by authorities, bundeswehr, technisches hilfswerk, and private initiatives, it all went very fast, and flexible. there was no talking in the face of the catastrophe (but afterwards :) ), but very quick reaction on all levels. because we had the infrastructure both in social and communal senses, and organization to react so quickly - and this was no small flood, it really was big, several villages got destroyed more or less competely inG ernay, and eastern neighbouring states. The THW was active in NO until Rita approached and complained about especially this lack of infrastructure, bureaucracy raising needless hurdles, one hand not knowing what the other does (noit to mentioin not to accept French medications :nope: ). This is the result if everything is left to private initiative only.
This is so much nonsense.
The Oder floods, while being massive, can hardly be compared with the hurricane Kathrina disaster. First of all at the Oder there was no destructive hurricane, so the infrastructure remained intact, than the flood came from the land, not from the sea with meters high waves. And the area affected was as large as England. A Dutch warship with two helicopters, rescue teams, food and medication arrived after two days. A few days later they were withdrawn because by then the National Guard had taken over in a very efficient way. So much of your whole posting about "you NEED existing structures, and a collective sense that help is not voluntary charity only" which, spiced with the obligatory anti-Bush remark, is really about nothing.
As far as 'red tape' is concerned, it existed, it exists and it will exist, but I dare say the farther from the disaster area, the more red tape. So if it is reported, you know where the reporter is...
And I can imagine that the integration of foreign relief workers within an existing organisation under demanding circumstances leads to some frustration.
The bottom line is that the U.S. got it's act together within a few days and stood the test within a few weeks.
That's why I said: well done U.S.A.

No, I disagree with you. Katrina ripped off a mask, and we saw strong but isolated individual efforts, but the bankruptcy of communal structures and binding responsebilities - because the lack of these. I cannot see that as a shining example for Europe, sorry.
Of course you disagree with what I wrote. Lack of inside knowledge never inhibits you to judge situations on the other end of the globe.
And I know that even solid facts bounce off your armour of anti Americanism.

B.T.W. I really like your line: "Kathrina ripped off a mask." I've read it a few times already. It sounds like a dramatic revelation, even if not correct.
Keep using it, please!

[bradclark1]

@ August:
Don't you know?
News sells, bad news sells better.
We have made up our minds, based upon the CNN impressions.
Don't come and disturb us with after action factual assesments...

Abraham,
You are as regular as clock work. The problem is you see facts as "you" want to see them. Irregardless of using common sense.
"factual assesments" Thats a laugh.
The problem is that ya'll see things as action-reaction. Their is more to running an organized operation then that.
This is another case of agree to disagree.

[bradclark1]

As for mobilizing the military in particular, you know that the Federal government can't use troops for domestic law enforcement as that would be a clear violation of the Posse Comitus act.
I know that and thats not what upset me about this. The main concern was the humanitarian effort ie. food, water and medical care.
When individuals from out of state can react faster then goverment agencies something is broke.
I guess my knowledge of military reaction capabilities isn't getting across.
I was also under the assumption that the president presigned for Rita not Katrina. If it's the other way around then the problem was even worse.

[Abraham]

@ August:
Don't you know?
News sells, bad news sells better.
We have made up our minds, based upon the CNN impressions.
Don't come and disturb us with after action factual assesments...

Abraham,
You are as regular as clock work. The problem is you see facts as "you" want to see them. Irregardless of useing common sense.
"factual assesments" Thats a laugh.
I don't agree, Bradclark1 and think you're wrong.
I don't 'see' any 'facts'.
August gave an extensive list of witness statements, that paint a greatly different picture from the sketchy and often inaccurate reports that were shown the first days.
Knowing that people hate to change a first impression, especially when based on flimsy evidence, I 'reprimanded' him for provoking some critical thinking.These facts were not mine, but Augusts. All credits - including your criticism - goes to him (sorry August).

It's a fact that history paints a more accurate picture than TV news channels.
It's also a fact that it takes an open mind to accept new information after a first assesment of the situation, which is disturbing for many because they may have to rethink...

I don't really appreciate your personal attacks, Bradclark1, like The problem is you see facts as "you" want to see them. Irregardless of useing common sense. "factual assesments". That's a laugh. Especially without any substantiation.
On the other hand, I'm quite used to opponents in a discussion who use personal attacks and ridiculise the other in order to conceal their lack of arguments.
Too bad, but that's life...

[bradclark1]

I'll allow the president and congress do my talking for me.
Yesterday the president said he is going to get with congress about maybe letting the military take natural disasters from now on.
The ex FEMA director appeared before congress today. I'll let this speak for me also. See the news or read about it in the paper tomorrow.
I'll add this one thing on top of this. The ex FEMA director is still being paid by the U.S. goverment. What does this mean? Anything he says has to be cleared by the White House. Why would this be?
I think thats all there is to say on the subject.

[bradclark1]

I don't really appreciate your personal attacks, Bradclark1, like Bradclark1 wrote:
The problem is you see facts as "you" want to see them. Irregardless of useing common sense. "factual assesments". That's a laugh.
Especially without any substantiation.
On the other hand, I'm quite used to opponents in a discussion who use personal attacks and ridiculise the other in order to conceal their lack of arguments.
Too bad, but that's life...

You are right. Please accept my apologies.
See. If I think I'm wrong I will own up.

edit
August gave an extensive list of witness statements, that paint a greatly different picture from the sketchy and often inaccurate reports that were shown the first days.
As I said earlier my critisism is directed at humanitarion efforts not rumors of violence. I know better than running my mouth on that subject without seeing the bodies.

Brad

[August]

I know that and thats not what upset me about this. The main concern was the humanitarian effort ie. food, water and medical care.
When individuals from out of state can react faster then goverment agencies something is broke.
I guess my knowledge of military reaction capabilities isn't getting across.
I was also under the assumption that the president presigned for Rita not Katrina. If it's the other way around then the problem was even worse.

Look Brad I understand you're angry and dissapointed but it was not the Feds that really screwed the pooch in New Orleans.

The White House declared an impending disaster area for Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana on Fri 26-Aug at 9:00 AM, and ordered FEMA and DHS to begin preparations a full 4 days before Katrina hit. By Sunday FEMA had prepositioned stocks of food and humanitarian supplies along the edges of the expected disaster area in both Georgia and Texas.

Now you talk about knowing military reaction capabilities (and you're not the only one here that's familiar with them btw) but really, what could have the feds have done better? After all, we're talking about, as Abraham notes, an effected area the size of England. Putting a bunch of troops and material near enough to significantly improve the federal response time to any one part of that huge area would likely have put them right in the bullseye of the hurricane, then it becomes a question of who will rescue the rescuers and how to replace the supplies that the storm has destroyed.

Besides, nearly all of the problems in New Orleans, where ALL the complaining is coming from, can be traced right back to not getting people to leave the city in a timely and effective manner, as well as a weak police and national guard presence to both enforce the evacuation and provide security afterwards. Although New Orleans own Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan calls for city buses to evacuate citizens out of the city, Nagin never put it into effect. Why? Was he lulled into a false sense of security by all the near misses NO has had in the past? I don't know.

What i do know is instead of evacuating the city like he should have and his own disaster plans called for, he encouraged people who hadn't left by their own means to go to the superdome and the convention center and wait the storm out. These places had little in the way of food or potable water (the convention center wasn't even supposed to be used) and were located where they would be very hard to reach and supply in the event of a flood, which he knew (or should have known) was a significant likelyhood.

Now the hurricane and subsequent flood hits and an estimated 50,000-100,000 that should have been evacuated beforehand remain in the city. It's too late to get enough supplies in to such a huge mass of people and there's pitifully few police and NG (the latter thanks to Blancos incompetance) to maintain order. All kinds of wild rumors circulate about gang rapes and hundreds of murders which are gleefully reported as fact by the media and are now being found to be largly untrue or hugely exaggerated. Blanco and Nagin then start screaming for the Feds to come and save them.

Within 24 hours of the second levee breaking the Feds have opened a way into the city, assembled transport to replace all those NO busses lost in the flood, and have begun evacuations while simultaniously plucking people off rooftops and setting up emergency treatment areas. Now given the fact the Feds had much more than just one city to worry about, i'd say they did a pretty decent job. Not mistake free mind you, but pretty darn good for something they shouldn't have had to do in the first place.

Bottom line here is that incompetance by local and state officials, both current and past, are what created the problems in New Orleans, but because they're Democrats they'll be defended and excused by their party, regardless of their culpability, and how better to deflect criticism than to try to pin it on somebody else, the Feds and Bush in particular being the normal targets of choice.

Sorry for the rant Brad but it's becoming irritating to hear the non stop "It's all Bushes fault" mantra coming from the left for all things including, apparently, their own incompetance and the very weather itself. It don't particularly mind it but when it gets in the way of getting the nations business done i think it does us all a great disservice that we shouldn't stand for.

[Abraham]

I don't really appreciate your personal attacks, Bradclark1, like Bradclark1 wrote:
The problem is you see facts as "you" want to see them. Irregardless of useing common sense. "factual assesments". That's a laugh.
Especially without any substantiation.
On the other hand, I'm quite used to opponents in a discussion who use personal attacks and ridiculise the other in order to conceal their lack of arguments.
Too bad, but that's life...

You are right. Please accept my apologies.
O.K. I do.
:up:

[Abraham]

Besides, nearly all of the problems in New Orleans, where ALL the complaining is coming from, can be traced right back to not getting people to leave the city in a timely and effective manner, as well as a weak police and national guard presence to both enforce the evacuation and provide security afterwards. Although New Orleans own Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan calls for city buses to evacuate citizens out of the city, Nagin never put it into effect. Why? Was he lulled into a false sense of security by all the near misses NO has had in the past? I don't know.
I might help you here.
According to Time, Sept. 19th, 2005 the major lost a full 24 hours because he was afraid of (legal) claims from the tourist branch and from business in case of an unjustified full-scale evacuation. On Saturday Ray Nagin was called by director Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center, who stressed the seriousness of the coming storm. Then on Sunday morning Nagin ordered the evacuation - but still did not use the hundreds of school busses that were later flooded...
Sorry for the rant Brad but it's becoming irritating to hear the non stop "It's all Bushes fault" mantra coming from the left for all things including, apparently, their own incompetance and the very weather itself.
I fully agree, although I would make an exception here for Skybird. I quite like his line "Hurricane Rita ripped a mask off." It sounds so dramatic and descriptive and implies so much.
Like: Knowbody really knew how bad the U.S. was but me.
Now it's exposed for all to see...
:D

[bradclark1]

Sorry for the rant Brad but it's becoming irritating to hear the non stop "It's all Bushes fault" mantra coming from the left for all things including, apparently, their own incompetance and the very weather itself.
It's not a rant.
I'm leaving for Ohio in an hour or so for a week. I don't have the time to carry this on but I do understand where you are coming from.
Maybe I'll even look up what the left, center, and right actually means. Terrible I know but I've never bothered to find out. I'm always just concerned over what I think is right. Not what party has the white house. I do have this obsessive dislike for this administration but the disaster overrode 'who' was in the white house, so it's not my anti-Bush thing speaking. I'm neither a democrat or republican. I'm for who I think can do the best job. If McCaine had of been a choice for president I would have voted for him.

Brad

[Skybird]

Strange. Amongst all options one could imagine - I would have preferred McCain, too. No holy saint, but the lesser evil.

[August]

It's not a rant.
I'm leaving for Ohio in an hour or so for a week. I don't have the time to carry this on but I do understand where you are coming from.
Maybe I'll even look up what the left, center, and right actually means. Terrible I know but I've never bothered to find out. I'm always just concerned over what I think is right. Not what party has the white house. I do have this obsessive dislike for this administration but the disaster overrode 'who' was in the white house, so it's not my anti-Bush thing speaking. I'm neither a democrat or republican. I'm for who I think can do the best job. If McCaine had of been a choice for president I would have voted for him.

Brad

I'm an independant centrist myself because i've seen political parties of all flavors quite willing to ignore inconvenient parts of the constitution whenever it suits their purposes. Every election i go to the polls trying to decide which half of my rights i'm more willing to risk.

For example: The Democrats see nothing wrong with eminent domain extending to the outrageous level of kicking people off their land to make way for a private corporations luxury condo project on the chance, not even the guarentee mind you, just that it might generate some more tax money, someday.

The Republicans claim to oppose this and have written a bill against it, but in spite of being a majority in both houses of congress it goes nowhere. And then there is that whole owned by big business thing which as far as i can tell extends to both parties pretty equally nowadays.

As for McCain, while i respect his service to this country both as a military man and as a senior US Senator, i feel his legendary temper in the White House would be a dangerous thing for the nation.

Anyways enjoy your trip to Ohio and maybe you'll catch this reply on your return.