I seriously don't get it.........

[Damo1977]

How can people rubbish Nazi Germany than give support to the Soviet Union? Also why is Soviet Union allowed to be discussed and not Nazi Germany? IMHO They had ideological differences, but they treated races exactly the same. Maybe its me living in Australia (me being a individual) finding open minds, thats open to such discussion, without pointing a finger or/and maybe the rest of the world is really brainwashed.......


the question/statement should have been,
I don't understand why the USSR is not treated or seen the same way as Nazi Germany.....

[Type941]

Maybe its me living in Australia (me being a individual) finding open minds, thats open to such discussion, without pointing a finger or/and maybe the rest of the world is really brainwashed.......

So it's either you being an opinionated individual, or the rest is brain washed. Nice way to start a discussion... :doh: Was it your topic about Hitler being a nice family man who painted that got locked up the other month? :hmm:

[Damo1977]

I must say yes it was my discussion about "Hitler". That was during my drunken postin forum. SO bascially care? The more I read the forums, the more I must say most of these arguements start from language barriers. All I was basically saying was, us Australians (and probably the Kiwi's), opinionated lot we are, aren't taught to feel guilty.....we are a cross cultural lot, so we don't really care about the past. Its the future we care about!!

But we remember something's like,
Don't worry if the Japs conquer Australia we shall reinvade, as said by a British Prime Minister, while our troops were fighting in some famous desert places.......

Also that "perfumed princess" American General MacCarthur, telling our troops that all you got to defend is a little creek.........when it was 7 kilometers across..... And our Australian Troops did defend it, and defeated the Japanese Army with less than a battalion.. It was the first victory against the Japanese.

Some of us will never forget the truth and hopefully not after the true ANZACS part our company, we shall never forget

[Kapitan]

the USSR post is not focusing on one man stalin lennin kreschev brezhnev gorbachev ect what it details is what happend to cause the fall of the soviet union

its not and repat not meaning stalin was a nice guy realy

it means how and why did the soviet union collapse that means all of it economy people millatery ect not just one man

[Happy Times]

Il play with this.Hitler did evil things but he did good too :) Things were better in Nazi Germany than in Weimar Rebublic :D Nazi Germany wasnt really a threat to anyone :lol:

[August]

I don't think post war generations of Russians and Germans should be held responsible for their parents and grandparents but the bottom line here is that the world is better off without the USSR or the nazis.

[Kapitan]

thats true but then who would we focus the eye of paranoia on ? our own people? and if we do that then it rather defeats the object cause then your turning the whole place into a stalins ideology

[Damo1977]

I don't think post war generations of Russians and Germans should be held responsible for their parents and grandparents but the bottom line here is that the world is better off without the USSR or the nazis.

I agree deep down in my heart with what you say August, but sometimes revenge surfaces in me.

[Damo1977]

Il play with this.Hitler did evil things but he did good too :) Things were better in Nazi Germany than in Weimar Rebublic :D Nazi Germany wasnt really a threat to anyone :lol:

Happy Times always the party animal :up:

[Type941]

Than coming back to being 'legal' or 'illegal' to discuss the Nazi. Don't take it as personal attack, but you mentioned Austria - and didn't Austria just few years ago voted a man who supported Hitler into the office? That's 21st century. History is history, but if people in Austria feel that way - may be the view on Hitler is slightly less hostile there? I never noticed it though, since I worked for an Austrian company, but I'm just asking a question here reallly.

I assume that it's possible that I don't know the whole story of that Nazi-follower parliament leader in Austria, and don't want to say you supported that, but it's an amuzing thing to happen in the european union, don't you think?

[Kapitan]

in austria its illigal to display a swastika however theres no law stopping you preaching everything hitler preached.

austrians do nnot recognise hitler as being one of thier own the majority that is

[August]

I don't think post war generations of Russians and Germans should be held responsible for their parents and grandparents but the bottom line here is that the world is better off without the USSR or the nazis.

I agree deep down in my heart with what you say August, but sometimes revenge surfaces in me, see I controlled it Gizzmoe

It's only been 60 years since WW2 and less than 20 since the fall of the Berlin wall. It's understandable that there will still be strong feelings about both.

[Damo1977]

His name was I believe "Heider"......Anyhow what country are you from type941.......Now I do not belive in personal attacks (even though I did it, but I am extremely sorry about it)......Ok I shall be honest, I see USA going down the same path as Nazi Germany did. And actually I am worried. To be, honest, all I see the difference is they hide behind so called democracy, which the laws can easily be changed if you create enough fear.

[Type941]

Estonia.

[Damo1977]

Hang on b4 I get attacked by UStateans, it is the same here, there maybe a law that the police can hold you for 14 days without charge. I am extremely unhappy about.....

[StdDev]

How can people rubbish Salmonella bacteria then give support to alcohol producing yeast bacteria? Also why is the product of alcohol producing yeast bacteria allowed to be commercially sold and not Salmonella? IMHO They may have differing physiological repercussions, but they behave exactly the same as organisms. Maybe its me living in California (me being an individual) finding open minds, that’s open to such discussion, without pointing a finger or/and maybe the rest of the world is really brainwashed.

Take a Salmonellae to lunch!



I must say yes it was my discussion about "Hitler". That was during my drunken postin forum.

Aha!!!! another spineless minion of the yeast bacteria!


The more I read the forums, the more I must say most of these arguements start from language barriers.

Perhaps the barrier is actually rooted in some peoples inability to use language!


But we remember something's like,
Don't worry if the Japs conquer Australia we shall reinvade, as said by a British Prime Minister, while our troops were fighting in some famous desert places.......

I see! So it IS true that the Australian Government was shanghaid into fighting the nazis... those pesky nazis wernt any REAL threat, in spite of what a certain British PM thought.. obviously "brainwashed"

Also that "perfumed princess" American General MacCarthur, telling our troops that all you got to defend is a little creek.........when it was 7 kilometers across..... And our Australian Troops did defend it, and defeated the Japanese Army with less than a battalion..

I remember seeing the Newspaper headlines...
Aussie battalion defeats the whole bloody Jap Army!

Some of us will never forget the truth and hopefully not after the true ANZACS part our company, we shall never forget

{SARCASM=OFF}
Damo.. you sound like you are "defending" Australia from some perceived malignment.... did I miss a post somewhere?

Your initial post sounds like a endorsement of the National Socialist party when they are compared with USSR.
Most of us have come to realize that your posts are usually cleverly hidden beneath the fog of intoxication, but they ALWAYS smack just a bit of a "troll"

No one here denies that Australia & New Zealand played an important role in the second world war.

I suggest that AU and NZ organize a memorial celebration to honour your countrymen in the Australian/New Zealand Army Corp.. you could set aside a special day and celebrate it every year!..

oh wait...

[Damo1977]

Type941, Estonia huh? See I live in Australia, not Austria. Some of us reckon it will be our worst nightmare if someone gets it wrong....Anyhow your right I am from Austrian heritage, but it all depends when borders were drawn up, but also I have other lands in me......So I am Mongrel....But proud Aussie

[Damo1977]

How can people rubbish Salmonella bacteria then give support to alcohol producing yeast bacteria? Also why is the product of alcohol producing yeast bacteria allowed to be commercially sold and not Salmonella? IMHO They may have differing physiological repercussions, but they behave exactly the same as organisms. Maybe its me living in California (me being an individual) finding open minds, that’s open to such discussion, without pointing a finger or/and maybe the rest of the world is really brainwashed.

Take a Salmonellae to lunch!



I must say yes it was my discussion about "Hitler". That was during my drunken postin forum.

Aha!!!! another spineless minion of the yeast bacteria!


The more I read the forums, the more I must say most of these arguements start from language barriers.

Perhaps the barrier is actually rooted in some peoples inability to use language!


But we remember something's like,
Don't worry if the Japs conquer Australia we shall reinvade, as said by a British Prime Minister, while our troops were fighting in some famous desert places.......

I see! So it IS true that the Australian Government was shanghaid into fighting the nazis... those pesky nazis wernt any REAL threat, in spite of what a certain British PM thought.. obviously "brainwashed"

Also that "perfumed princess" American General MacCarthur, telling our troops that all you got to defend is a little creek.........when it was 7 kilometers across..... And our Australian Troops did defend it, and defeated the Japanese Army with less than a battalion..

I remember seeing the Newspaper headlines...
Aussie battalion defeats the whole bloody Jap Army!

Some of us will never forget the truth and hopefully not after the true ANZACS part our company, we shall never forget

{SARCASM=OFF}
Damo.. you sound like you are "defending" Australia from some perceived malignment.... did I miss a post somewhere?

Your initial post sounds like a endorsement of the National Socialist party when they are compared with USSR.
Most of us have come to realize that your posts are usually cleverly hidden beneath the fog of intoxication, but they ALWAYS smack just a bit of a "troll"

No one here denies that Australia & New Zealand played an important role in the second world war.

I suggest that AU and NZ organize a memorial celebration to honour your countrymen in the Australian/New Zealand Army Corp.. you could set aside a special day and celebrate it every year!..

oh wait...

SPineless Minion????? Least I proudlu show where I am from!!!!!!!!

[Type941]

http://home.comcast.net/~incubus52/troll.jpg

:huh:

[StdDev]

thats true but then who would we focus the eye of paranoia on ? our own people? and if we do that then it rather defeats the object cause then your turning the whole place into a stalins ideology

They have a new popular group to fear out now.. Al Qaeda!
and they've done some terrific marketing in the fear/paranoia sphere!

[Damo1977]

Oh dear I can't use language, but mr toffy nosed, reckons me pissed all time....................well ok I am troll sorry, for sitting here and tracking a personal topic.......whats that I need a tool? suppose STDDEV will help spin some crap

[StdDev]

Oh my! toffy nosed! I cant compete with that!
Are you sure you cant come up with something about.. oh my mother or something along those lines?

[Damo1977]

@StdDev
You seriously want a go at me don't you?

Well considering you hide your abuse behind a screen, look up in the corner of the room, see it, maybe it's behind the speaker? Do you see it?Well thats you, a waste of space

[Type941]

ladies, put down the nail polish before you hurt yourselfves and start throwing CAPS at each other! :rotfl:

[StdDev]

@StdDev
You seriously want a go at me don't you?

Well considering you hide your abuse behind a screen, look up in the corner of the room, see it, maybe it's behind the speaker? Do you see it?Well thats you, a waste of space

I SEE IT!!!
ITS TWUE ITS TWUE
I must be such a dissapointment!

[Damo1977]

I don't know, maybe yes or maybe no
but its good to see a fighting spirit.............but aint now troll here, I would prefer to hang a hook on the water if I wanted trouble

[Damo1977]

Anyhow back on my TWUE subject

[CCIP]

IMHO They had ideological differences, but they treated races exactly the same.

What races?

[Type941]

IMHO They had ideological differences, but they treated races exactly the same.

What races?

eh... you know. races... :doh:

[CCIP]

You mean like... in the Olympics? Like Hitler being pissed about how the black guy ran the fastest in 1936 or something? Butbut... what does the USSR have to do with that again? :hmm:

[Type941]

I think USSR was a bit pissed of with that athlete from Poland setting a record in the olympics in the 80s.

[CCIP]

Well that's not so much 'race' as just politics.

I'm surprise anyone would bring in 'race' or ethnic factors into the case against a country which is most notorious under the rule of a dictator who wasn't even Russian by birth or education, and spoke with a very telling accent. Not to say he personally didn't have a tooth against a few nationalities, including Jews, but going by statistics... everyone got shafted pretty equally in the end, I'd say. :hmm:

[Type941]

A good point - Stalin was from Georgia. He has nothing to do with Russia as a nationality. Wish that people remember that sometimes.

[Kapitan]

georgia is acctualy or was rather a soviet republic so there was a very high connection there same with chechnya most of these third world ex soviet republics are waring georgia and chechnya are two of them.

chechen rebels are acctualy part of alquieda and are finaced by them and given arms by them russia doesnt want to hand full control to these republics for certain reasons i dont know why there has to be something there of use to russia

[CCIP]

georgia is acctualy or was rather a soviet republic so there was a very high connection.

Yes, it was, but not ethnically (culturally only to some extent, since Georgia is also a long-time, well-developed christian nation). Georgia became part of the Russian Empire in the beginning of the 19th century. Chechnya was gradually taken over during the mid-19th century. Making a comparison between Chechnya and Georgia though, is a stretch. The only thing they really have in common is that they're in the same general geographic area.

chechen rebels are acctualy part of alquieda and are finaced by them and given arms by them russia doesnt want to hand full control to these republics for certain reasons i dont know why there has to be something there of use to russia

That's a huge simplification of the matter.

Chechen rebels are not part of Al-Quaeda, but they do have links. Most of the Chechen arms come from Russia, or were even picked up from massive Soviet stockpiles when the union fell apart. They don't need to beg Al-Quaeda for weapons, and they're generally better equipped and trained (in part by Al-Quaeda) than the Russian forces there.

Why Russia doesn't want to let go is simple: it's very, very politically advantageous for the administration to stay there. It's a great political card; the US in Iraq could take a cue in hypocricy, media spins and flat-out lies that the Russian government comes up with to use the war to its advantage.

On the other hand, I'd like to see what would happen if Chechnya is handed off to these rebels. Taliban was at least mostly fundamentalist religion-based; these guys, meanwhile, are in it for fun and profit. :hmm:

[Damo1977]

Well that's not so much 'race' as just politics.

I'm surprise anyone would bring in 'race' or ethnic factors into the case against a country which is most notorious under the rule of a dictator who wasn't even Russian by birth or education, and spoke with a very telling accent. Not to say he personally didn't have a tooth against a few nationalities, including Jews, but going by statistics... everyone got shafted pretty equally in the end, I'd say. :hmm:

Race, Ethnic what is the difference? Anyhow I have read many reports that Jewish people were 'shafted' more. Also you mention a Russian dictator who wasn't born in Russia, well the same can be said about a German dictator who was born in Linz, Austria. In the end, it really doesn't matter, they both committed mass murder on an equal level. This 'mass murder' is what I was trying to get at in my question.........I wasn't defending/supporting Nazi Germany or trolling, not like what STD developer thought.

[Type941]

ok, it looked like you were defending Hitler.

What you did is you turned this from Hitler/Stalin to NaziGermani/USSR. IMHO - the governments and not the people should be the focus! Paranoid men, who came to power by manipulating the people. As a russian, i have nothing to appologise for, and have nothing to do with Stalin, who, as I said wasn't even russian.

[Damo1977]

No I am not,
I have never set out to defend Hitler or the Nazis...

the question/statement should have been,
I don't understand why the USSR is not treated or seen the same way as Nazi Germany.

I like my writings short, sharp and straight to the point. Majority of the time it works, but sometimes it can backfire.

Well back to work for me....

[Type941]

No I am not,
I have never set out to defend Hitler or the Nazis...

the question/statement should have been,
I don't understand why the USSR is not treated or seen the same way as Nazi Germany.

I like my writings short, sharp and straight to the point. Majority of the time it works, but sometimes it can backfire.

Well back to work for me....

But in short, USSR and Nazi germany is not the same thing. :doh:

[Kapitan]

USSR and nazi germany two diffrent thing two diffrent ideologys two diffrent practices and two diffrent way views means and people

[Damo1977]

arggggghhhhhhhhh :damn: I know they were different in all aspects......

Why isn't the USSR, despised, loathed, hated etc. like Nazi Germany is when they both perfomed crimes against humanity on an equally atrocious level?

[Type941]

Why isn't the USSR, despised, loathed, hated etc. like Nazi Germany is ...?

Because they aren't the same thing. :damn: :damn: :damn:

[August]

Why isn't the USSR, despised, loathed, hated etc. like Nazi Germany is when they both perfomed crimes against humanity on an equally atrocious level?

Perhaps it was because the USSR was not totally defeated in a bitter world war it had started at the height of their most dastardly acts. Imagine Allied troops capturing the gulags in their heyday, everthing being photographed, filmed and broadcast to the entire world along with the stories of the surviving victims.

While certainly no excuse for such crimes. time and destruction of evidence does a lot to reduce public outrage and hate.

[Type941]

You really do only see things in black and white, don't you August? :roll:

Imagine Allied troops capturing the gulags in their heyday, everthing being photographed, filmed and broadcast to the entire world along with the stories of the surviving victims.

Troll. :stare:

[Damo1977]

Why isn't the USSR, despised, loathed, hated etc. like Nazi Germany is ...?

Because they aren't the same thing. :damn: :damn: :damn:

I think I finally figured out what you mean, the Nazis murdered certain classes and races of people with ruthless efficiency and planning, while the Soviets just murdered people they didn't like, in a adhoc way.
Am I right?
But than to be brutally honest whats the difference when your dead your dead, no matter what way it is done.......

[August]

You really do only see things in black and white, don't you August? :roll:

Imagine Allied troops capturing the gulags in their heyday, everthing being photographed, filmed and broadcast to the entire world along with the stories of the surviving victims.

Troll. :stare:

Toll? Its ironic you should say that Mr. Kettle. :roll:

I deliberately drew the comparison to way nazi concentration camps were liberated by the WW2 allies, but that was only to illustrate the point of my post, which you obviously missed.

Go back and reread: "Perhaps it was because the USSR was not totally defeated in a bitter world war it had started at the height of their most dastardly acts."

The USSR obviously did not start or prosecute a "bitter world war" therefore did not have their crimes uncovered by a victorious wartime enemy who already had a darn good reason to dislike them intensely.

However, don't you think that if the Soviet gulags or the Katyn forrest had been uncovered in the same manner as the nazi concentration camps and murders were brought to the worlds attention, that world feeling against the Soviets would match that of the nazis as Damo has asked?

[The Avon Lady]

However, don't you think that if the Soviet gulags or the Katyn forrest had been uncovered in the same manner as the nazi concentration camps and murders were brought to the worlds attention, that world feeling against the Soviets would match that of the nazis as Damo has asked?
No. You know why?

Most of the USSR's citizens were prisoners of their own ideology. The beneficiairies of the Communist system were the 2 legged pigs at the top of the government, military, and industry. The rest of the country were reduced to mostly equivalently unhappy and rights-suppressed underlings.

Not so Nazi Germany! This was a regime democractically elelected and overall lauded by the German people for its racial doctine, laws and policies. A country laughed at the sufferings of others.

Both Hitler and Stalin were beasts. But only one of them truly won the hearts and minds of his countrymen.

[August]

No. You know why?

Most of the USSR's citizens were prisoners of their own ideology. The beneficiairies of the Communist system were the 2 legged pigs at the top of the government, military, and industry. The rest of the country were reduced to mostly equivalently unhappy and rights-suppressed underlings.

Not so Nazi Germany! This was a regime democractically elelected and overall lauded by the German people for its racial doctine, laws and policies. A country laughed at the sufferings of others.

Both Hitler and Stalin were beasts. But only one of them truly won the hearts and minds of his countrymen.

I disagree.

Stalinist stability is still missed by many older Russians. He was feared yes, but from what i've read he was not hated by the average Russian man in the street of the time, to whom pogroms and repression had always been facts of life.

One must judge the people of those eras by their reality, not ours.

Neither the soviets or the nazis came to power by telling their peoples that they would soon be oppressing and murdering them in wholesale lots, They at least paid lip service to the concept of popular rule and they offered a way out of crushing poverty and oppression. They offered the hope of a better life to desperate people.

We should not underestimate how much of a major improvement this actually was over the systems the two peoples always had lived under. It wasn't until later, with their control over their nations already established, that the true nature of nazism and soviet stalinism became apparent and by then it was too late.

[The Avon Lady]

I disagree.

Stalinist stability is still missed by many older Russians. He was feared yes, but from what i've read he was not hated by the average Russian man in the street of the time, to whom pogroms and repression had always been facts of life.
True and my answer was way simplified.

But the average Ivan ( :P ) admired Stalin for nothing more than that - stability. Yes, there were many true-red Stalinist Communists who admired Stalin as better than Lenin but what they wanted was Communism, whose lurid goal is everyone's the same and we're all one big happy ant colony, even if we only eat straw and stubble.

This is a far cry from Aryan racist national ideology.
either the soviets or the nazis came to power by telling their peoples that they would soon be oppressing and murdering them in wholesale lots, They at least paid lip service to the concept of popular rule and they offered a way out of crushing poverty and oppression. They offered the hope of a better life to desperate people.
Mein Kamp was not published in 1941. It was published in 1925 and 1926. Aryan supremist ideology was part and parcel of what Hitler offered his countrymen (and Austria's and then some). He was worshiped for it.

[Type941]

You sit in your house, watch some program on Discovery channel about USSR (who prepared it?), take it as the ultimate truth, and pick up a few russian words like 'pogrom' and now think you got the scoop on the whole thing and choose to opine on the issue. It's very typical. Trouble is buddy, you actually don't have a clue because you never lived there!

I grew up in Soviet Union when I was small, I started school when perestroika was in full swing. The only reason why some people want back the USSR is that they forget the problems it had and focus on the social stability it provided. I.e. you go to school, free, always, you get education that's one of the best - your country employs tens of thousands of former USSR specialist in computers and science for example, because your own could never prepare them on such scale - for free, - you get a job and stand 10 years in line for the apartment. Or 1 year.

Also this notion of Party standing over you and always demanding things to be done in some way is more true for Orwell's Animal Farm. Here's an example. My grandfather worked in one of chemical facilities - producing some normal industrial stuff (in mid 60s). The whole emergency and guidance for safety was awful, that's why he always had to look for things himself at that time. When on some shift a guy 'forgot' to do something (or as they call in America, a "human error" which is politically correct for someone f*cked up) a reaction of gas was released into air and was about to blow. My grandfather had to run through the whole damn factory getting everyone out, risking his life. The whole thing blew up in a minute (noone died from 400 people inside). He than had to go to meet with KGB officer and report. He had to go to these meetings almost every week, and keep writing reports. He was getting scared, frustrated and mad on why he was being questioned as criminal for an industrial accident and when everyone in the facility said that thanks to him the whole thing didn't turn out in casulties, including the director of the whole plant. Than he went to his boss and asked what to do. The guy told him - next time you are called in - tell him 'to f*ck off' and leave, don't say anything else. He also said 'This isn't Stalin era anymore, it's not that dangerous, don't worry about these rats'. Next time my gramps was called in, and aked to write more things he said "why don't you f*ck off with all your questions".. To the KGB offficer. Next, he just turned around and left. ... He hasn't heard ANYTHING more from them, ever.

Truth of the matter is that most people had little ability to get out, or let the world know what's going on. But they all between themselves adopted. We were not some pigs at the top, no way, but we had a car, a dacha, big apartment, and none of my grandparents were working in coops, or foreign currency shops. They were in charge of their departments on a factory, had 8 classes of education (because than, war started) and worked hard to achieve all they have. They also raised 2 kids. This was not in Moscow, because those in Moscow had a totally differnt life to smaller province areas. Noone in my family was in KGB, or other stuff like that. All they achieved was through hard work, and we had a good childhood, went to Black Sea every year for 2 months vacation, etc. we haven't been murdering Jews, or jumping enraged on someone who opened a shop somewhere.

LIke I said, you have no clue what you are talking about, and your generalizing is typical of what's wrong with america today. If people like you had your way, you'd put troops everywhere to 'free' people, but problem is you are not free yourself, since you keep thinking in cold war propoganda mentality. It's very ironic and very sad. You can't even speak russian, how can you judge the country so profoundly as you have?

Ignorance is a bliss. Oink.

[Sharkstooth]

You sit in your house, watch some program on Discovery channel about USSR (who prepared it?), take it as the ultimate truth, and pick up a few russian words like 'pogrom' and now think you got the scoop on the whole thing and choose to opine on the issue. It's very typical. Trouble is buddy, you actually don't have a clue because you never lived there!

Funny, those are my same thoughts about the way you view the situation in Iraq, New Orleans .....and just America in general.

[Kapitan]

hmmmmm :hmm: :stare:

[TteFAboB]

I get it now, Type941's grandfather sabotaged an industrial chemical factory and Type941's now suffers from Stockholm's syndrome and denial. He speaks of "freedom" and "freeing" people because his grandfather was a separatist terrorist who worked to "free" his provincial people.

(Joke alert: The previous line was a joke)

Type941, you say Americans have no clue what they are talking about, but if you looked at the mirror for a second, what do YOU know? You say you grew up in the Soviet Union, what do YOU know about individual responsabilities, individual freedom, individual duty, individual rights, etc. etc..

You don't want people to generalize your Soviet Union but you generalize America and Americans, you spit anti-americanism but you deny the crimes and horrors of the Soviet Union.

Now it's my turn to generalize: While people like you were sitting back home watching the official propaganda channel somebody's else grandfather was passing away in a gulag, gladly people like you would never know, care or bother with it because you would soon be enjoyning a vacation to the black sea, how can a blind man judge anybody ignorant?

[Type941]

I get it now, Type941's grandfather sabotaged an industrial chemical factory and Type941's now suffers from Stockholm's syndrome and denial. He speaks of "freedom" and "freeing" people because his grandfather was a separatist terrorist who worked to "free" his provincial people.

(Joke alert: The previous line was a joke)

:down: Grow up.

I lived in USA and USSR so I can compare a little bit. Can't say that about you. And spare me your 'if you aren't with us you're against us' bullcrap, i never 'spewed' any anti-americanism. The fact that I think you have a moron in the office doesn't really mean I hate america. It's only an opinion. However when someone is likening my grandparents and parents to Nazist in germany, you damn right I will respond, even to trolls.

[Sharkstooth]

I lived in USA and USSR so I can compare a little bit.

no, you really can't.

[Type941]

I lived in USA and USSR so I can compare a little bit.

no, you really can't.

good come back! :rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

Type941's responses sound reasonable to me. What's wrong with them folks? This is an interesting conversation. Let's not denegrate it. :nope:

[Sharkstooth]

The fact that I think you have a moron in the office doesn't really mean I hate america.

What does it really mean? What do you like about America?

[August]

Type941,

You miss the point, as usual. I was countering AL's comments about how the German people bought into nazisim when the Russian people didn't. I thought it was much to lopsided and sweeping.

In any case you say you grew up in Russia during Perestroyka, so your in your, what, n your mid 20's? Well Sonny i'm old enough to remember the Cuban missle crisis and air raid drills in school. I'm also old enough to have stood watch on the borders of your empire during it's heyday. I'll agree "Soviet Man" was not a viewpoint believed or shared by all in Russia and especially the SSR's, but please don't bore us with your youthfully arrogant view that it never existed at all.

[Type941]

so again you attack on personal basis and never bothering to comment on what i said on the issue. Seniority doesn't grant you the right to say that you know better. In fact I believe that it's possible that some younger people would hold a more objective view. Don't cast me aside because I'm in mid 20s, I've graduated university at 19 for example. Age isn't that important. You still can't have a better view on Russia since you never lived there. If you think that's a wrong way to look at things, that's ok, but don't tell me I'm just giving you arrogant bull. All i've been doing thus far is replying to you. In fact I am much less aggrevated with you now that you said how old you are since it makes sense why you would be so much against russia/ussr and all that.

[August]

so again you attack on personal basis and never bothering to comment on what i said on the issue. Seniority doesn't grant you the right to say that you know better. In fact I believe that it's possible that some younger people would hold a more objective view. Don't cast me aside because I'm in mid 20s, I've graduated university at 19 for example. Age isn't that important. You still can't have a better view on Russia since you never lived there. If you think that's a wrong way to look at things, that's ok, but don't tell me I'm just giving you arrogant bull. All i've been doing thus far is replying to you. In fact I am much less aggrevated with you now that you said how old you are since it makes sense why you would be so much against russia/ussr and all that.

I'm not casting you aside, but i seriously disagree with the idea that youth promotes a more objective viewpoint of the world. Remember, I was once your age too and i therefore know from experience just how strong and blind the passions of young adults can be.

You'll understand this too in about 20 years when you reach my age and lest you think i'm coming off as superior, please note that i'm postive that there's 60 year olds reading this and laughing at both of us hot headed youngsters.

Life is a journey that you must travel a little before you make up your mind where it's heading.

And BTW i have nothing against the Russian people. Those that i have met during and after the USSR have always been nice folk with a rich culture and appealing zest for life. It makes me really happy that with the Soviet Union gone we can now be friends.

[Type941]

It makes me really happy that with the Soviet Union gone we can now be friends.

Amen to that.

[gdogghenrikson]

Type941, you say Americans have no clue what they are talking about, but if you looked at the mirror for a second, what do YOU know? You say you grew up in the Soviet Union, what do YOU know about individual responsabilities, individual freedom, individual duty, individual rights, etc. etc..

You don't want people to generalize your Soviet Union but you generalize America and Americans, you spit anti-americanism but you deny the crimes and horrors of the Soviet Union.

Now it's my turn to generalize: While people like you were sitting back home watching the official propaganda channel somebody's else grandfather was passing away in a gulag, gladly people like you would never know, care or bother with it because you would soon be enjoyning a vacation to the black sea, how can a blind man judge anybody ignorant?

well put

[Damo1977]

Most of the USSR's citizens were prisoners of their own ideology. The beneficiairies of the Communist system were the 2 legged pigs at the top of the government, military, and industry. The rest of the country were reduced to mostly equivalently unhappy and rights-suppressed underlings.


I disagree, I reckon at least half of the USSR citizens, knew what was going on and benefiting from it....Otherwise I do not believe the USSR would have survived as long as it did before or after Stalin death.

Type941, I agree that you shouldn't feel sorry about what Stalin did. Its a bit like here in Australia. They are trying to make us say sorry for the crimes the earlier generations did to the Aborigines. Yes I do feel sorry for what happened to them, but I or my family did nothing to them, I wasn't born and my family hadn't arrived in Australia.

and Sharkstooth asks, 'What do you like about America?'
Well NHL, Cameron Diaz and GW Bush's adventures on his bike. I reckon he should have been a clown, instead of President. I have never known someone to be his age and fall of his bike as often as he does :rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

Most of the USSR's citizens were prisoners of their own ideology. The beneficiairies of the Communist system were the 2 legged pigs at the top of the government, military, and industry. The rest of the country were reduced to mostly equivalently unhappy and rights-suppressed underlings.


I disagree, I reckon at least half of the USSR citizens, knew what was going on and benefiting from it....
Half? Half benefited? How? What statistics do you base yourself on? Economic ones? Show them here. Waiting.................. :hmm:
Otherwise I do not believe the USSR would have survived as long as it did before or after Stalin death.
Regards to N. Korea's Lil' Kim. :dead: Not the first. Not the last.

[Kapitan]

I-gor fetch me my hammer yesss masster :hulk:

[Sharkstooth]

Well NHL, Cameron Diaz and GW Bush's adventures on his bike. I reckon he should have been a clown, instead of President. I have never known someone to be his age and fall of his bike as often as he does

He does take alot of tumbles, doesn't he. I figure he should just stick to riding horses--would be lot safer for him.

[Type941]

Damo - my point about not feeling sorry was basically that it's rediculous to expect a child to appologise for what his/her parents did. So when in conversation I'm being told I should appologise for Stalin's crimes I say 'go get yourself a perspective'.

[Kapitan]

my dad smashed the living hell out of a bloke down the pub a few years ago should I go an appologise for his doing ?

no so why should the grandchildren do it now ?

(hypothetical)

[Type941]

I know, absurd, but some people just don't get that.

[Kapitan]

i know i know

[Damo1977]

Avon Lady, Did you wait long? :P I shall say I don't have any hardcore facts. But the average person would have benefited more living under the Soviet rule than before the revolution with Czar Nicholas. SO they would have been quite happy living under the soviet rule due to them only knowing what life was like living under Czar Nichloas.

and Kapitan please explain for I am unlearned
'I-gor go fetch my hammer'?

Must go to work........
Take care all

[Kapitan]

igor is :hulk: and fetch me my hammer so i can whack some one with it *mention no names*

[Type941]

yyeees maaastaa.. :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

lol

[August]

But the average person would have benefited more living under the Soviet rule than before the revolution with Czar Nicholas. SO they would have been quite happy living under the soviet rule due to them only knowing what life was like living under Czar Nichloas.

This is exactly what i was getting at in my post.

We tend to judge the past by our reality, not the reality of those times. To the average person of the times the Soviets certainly looked like an improvement over the Czars and so to were the nazis considered an improvement, at least at first, over the Kaisers and Landgraves of German past.

Were it not for WW2 Hitler might well be considered no worse than Stalin.

[CCIP]

But the average person would have benefited more living under the Soviet rule than before the revolution with Czar Nicholas. SO they would have been quite happy living under the soviet rule due to them only knowing what life was like living under Czar Nichloas.

This is exactly what i was getting at in my post.

We tend to judge the past by our reality, not the reality of those times. To the average person of the times the Soviets certainly looked like an improvement over the Czars and so to were the nazis considered an improvement, at least at first, over the Kaisers and Landgraves of German past.


...and you could also consider the feelings of many Russian people about Russia today. Not to Stalin's times; but the comparison of life for MOST older Russians (and I mean the 'silent majority' here) between the USSR in the 60's-70's and in Russia today is by and far not a comparison in modern "democratic" Russia's favour :hmm:

[August]

I could agree with that.

[Damo1977]

yyeees maaastaa.. :rotfl:

:hmm: Interesting, very interesting...... :hmm: wonder what else you do for your master? Considering it sounds like your both into acts of violence, I don't want to know.:rotfl:

[Happy Times]

Nice that somebody benefitted from the USSR,we didnt.And our hands are clean.The dictatorship USSR was the agressor,democratic Finland the victim,period.Cant prove otherwise because its the truth and they should give back what they stole :stare: http://www.prokarelia.net/en/?x=main The truth is that as a state the USSR was as evil as they come.We have free education and health care in Finland without communism.What else was good about USSR?

[joea]

Nice that somebody benefitted from the USSR,we didnt.And our hands are clean.The dictatorship USSR was the agressor,democratic Finland the victim,period.Cant prove otherwise because its the truth and they should give back what they stole :stare: http://www.prokarelia.net/en/?x=main The truth is that as a state the USSR was as evil as they come.We have free education and health care in Finland without communism.What else was good about USSR?

Well people in many Latin American countries could say the same about the USA...North African about France, African about the UK, big powers tend to be more alike than we think.

[Happy Times]

There is little comparison here to the colonazation of those continents. A democratic,independent,European country was invaded by a criminal dictatorship.The League of Nations condemmed the attack and expelled the USSR.The US and UK left us on our own because they needed the alliance with USSR.So you maybe right about that they are all bad. :hmm:

[sergbuto]

And our hands are clean.

And who did hide Lenin from Russian police in 1917? :-j There would not be USSR otherwise. :lol:

[Happy Times]

And our hands are clean.

And who did hide Lenin from Russian police in 1917? :-j There would not be USSR otherwise. :lol: Finnish COMMUNISTS that wanted Finland to be part of USSR.Later they rebelled against the legal goverment and were driven to russia.Had to say even you were joking,everybody doesnt know our history.

[sergbuto]

I guess what Type941 was trying to say that one has to distinguish between USSR before mid-fifties and USSR in 60-90ies. During first period it was ruled by Georgean and after that by Ukranians. :-j I wonder where Russians come in? Certainly as gun meat during first period.

[Skybird]

The bigger a country is, the more it supresses and exploits countries the more the smaller they are. If that big country thinks of itself as "democratic", it does so indirectly, well-camouflaged behind wordtraps like "free economy", "freedom", "democracy". The more such a big country does not be "democratic", the more it reaches these very same effects by supressing and exploiting the others by military force. Point is: both have blood on their hands. In case of democracies that not so much kill with their own hands but let the killing done or taken place, this is just not so obvious than in case of a dictatorship that does the killing itself directly. From the statistics: in the 20th century the number of deaths caused by genocide (as understood inthe UN convention from december 1948) allowed and caused by tailored conditions by the demcocratic countries and designed to maximize their own economical advantages, equals if not exceeds the number of deaths of both world wars and all tyrannic regimes and all direct politcial terror there ever were during that century.

Should make one think. I only laugh about the "moral superiority " of our Western political motives. We created our own small island of the happy. We raised that island on the bodies of hundreds of millions.
Sorry for interrupting the party.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html

Rummel, Rudolf (see link above): Statistics of Democide. Genocide and Mass Murder since 1900. New Brunswick London Münster 1998

Kuper, Leo: Genocide. It's political use in the twentieth century. New Haven (Yale University Press) 1981

Fein, Helen: Genocide: a sociological perspective. London 1993

Böhme, Hartmut: Gewalt im 20. Jahrhundert. Demozide in der Sicht von Erinnerungsliteratur, Statistik und qualitativer Sozialanalyse. In: "figurationen 0" (1999)

[sergbuto]

And our hands are clean.

And who did hide Lenin from Russian police in 1917? :-j There would not be USSR otherwise. :lol: Finnish COMMUNISTS that wanted Finland to be part of USSR.Later they rebelled against the legal goverment and were driven to russia.Had to say even you were joking,everybody doesnt know our history.

Yes, Lenin was half-Jew (if I remember correctly), hiden at the time by Finnish communists, and later brought to the "throne" along with Stalin (Georgian) with help of Latvian troopers. :) Where do Russians come in? Certainly as 10 million dead during civil war.

[The Avon Lady]

Yes, Lenin was half-Jew (if I remember correctly)
I believe this is incorrect.

[Kapitan]

lennin was acctualy russian orthadox (christian)

[Type941]

so. 4 pages. Do you still 'not get it' or something's more clear for you Damo? :damn:

[sergbuto]

I lived in USA and USSR so I can compare a little bit.

no, you really can't.

I am shaken by solid arguments behind the answer. :-j I wish US leaders would follow this and stop pretend they know what is best for every nation.

[Type941]

Serg, that was just another troll. Someday, the Truth will set them free. :sunny:

[The Avon Lady]

lennin was acctualy russian orthadox (christian)
Yes, baptized in infancy.

I stand slighlty corrected. Lenin's maternal grandfather may have been a Jew.

According to Jewish law, that means even his mother wasn't Jewish.

According to anti-Semites, they couldn't care less, as long as someone has any form of Jeiwsh ancestry.

EDIT: I'll leave the original wording of my last sentence above as is. However, please do not misconstrue it. I am not referring to anything or anyone that has posted above. Sorry if I was misunderstood.

[Sharkstooth]

I am shaken by solid arguments behind the answer. I wish US leaders would follow this and stop pretend they know what is best for every nation.

Yes, I can definitely tell you have been shaken.
:cool:

[Type941]

I am shaken by solid arguments behind the answer. I wish US leaders would follow this and stop pretend they know what is best for every nation.

Yes, I can definitely tell you have been shaken.
:cool:

Another classic! :P

[Kapitan]

im hungrey so i aint going to post

[sergbuto]

I am shaken by solid arguments behind the answer. I wish US leaders would follow this and stop pretend they know what is best for every nation.

Yes, I can definitely tell you have been shaken.
:cool:

I am glad we understood each other. ;)

[XabbaRus]

Stalin's Grandmother I believe could have been Jewish and it was hushed up....

But if it was on his fathers side then that wouldn't make Stalin part Jewish as I believe it goes down the mothers side.

Anyway if you look at Russian history going way back you'll find that more times than not the ruler of the country wan't actually Russian.

[Kapitan]

that is true stalin was georgian and kreschev was from far east soe other from other parts

[Damo1977]

so. 4 pages. Do you still 'not get it' or something's more clear for you Damo? :damn:

:|\ Ummmm I am lost, can we start over again? :P

[Kapitan]

dammo before i throw you out of a window id like you to know one thing it wasnt on purpose (go figure) :D

[Type941]

so. 4 pages. Do you still 'not get it' or something's more clear for you Damo? :damn:

:|\ Ummmm I am lost, can we start over again? :P

And allow Nazi vs Soviet evolve into Russia vs USA? No thanks, that never turns out reasonable nor objective. :doh: :dead:

[gorilliamos]

First of all.... Damo's avatar is rediculous..... I think a definite custom job by those higher up as a possible reaction towards drunken postings.. It's hilarious. Sorry damo but it is.

To go back to the original question of why the USSR is not treated the same as Nazi Germany..... I think because Nazi Germany was the instigator of the war... the spark that set things in motion. In every spectical there needs to be a legitimate scapegoat...... and nazi germany fits the bill to a T. Scapegoat may not be the exact term I'm thinking of however... This implies that they were innocent bystanders or something. Maybe it's just a willingness to find blame where people think blame is due.

Speaking from an open empirical mind..... there are at least two or more sides to a story and if you go back far enough nobody's innocent.

This is what I always contemplate before passing judgment.... and after that rationale.... I can never pass judgement.

Ahh.... this is such a deep matter.... it's hard to talk about it without getting emotional.

There have been many emotional responses to this seemingly innocent question. Take a deep breath and count to ten.

Also, nobody knew the history of psychology like Stalin did.

[Happy Times]

Yeah,Germany instigated the war by attacking Poland WITH USSR!Try to get it by now! :doh:

[sergbuto]

Yeah,Germany instigated the war by attacking Poland WITH USSR!Try to get it by now! :doh:

So Chekhoslovakia or even Austria are not counted. Or they were not democratic, independent, Europian countries and German invasion can be regarded as colonization? :)

[Damo1977]

First of all.... Damo's avatar is rediculous..... I think a definite custom job by those higher up as a possible reaction towards drunken postings.. It's hilarious. Sorry damo but it is.

No need to be sorry, it is my fault for gettin drunk, and picking up the likes of it :rotfl:
But actually I haven't posted maggoted for, oh 16 days or there abouts....Thats why people understood me with this. ;),

anyhow am tired
Take care all

*as I sent this I am free :rock: of it, and now am Captain.....*

[Happy Times]

Yeah,Germany instigated the war by attacking Poland WITH USSR!Try to get it by now! :doh:

So Chekhoslovakia or even Austria are not counted. Or they were not democratic, independent, Europian countries and German invasion can be regarded as colonization? :) You are right off course but the 2ww didnt start with these occupations.In my opinion it should have started.One of the biggest questions in Finland is why Sweden didnt come to aid Finland in 1939? :P

[Type941]

Yeah,Germany instigated the war by attacking Poland WITH USSR!Try to get it by now! :doh:

So Chekhoslovakia or even Austria are not counted. Or they were not democratic, independent, Europian countries and German invasion can be regarded as colonization? :)

You are right off course but the 2ww didnt start with these occupations.In my opinion it should have started.

OK... so did WW2 START by those occupations, or for you it only counts when Britain and France stopped being wussies and decided to finally honour one of many of their pre war gurantees? Again and again, you only debate what fits your bill, and again you neglect the bigger picture. :down:

[Happy Times]

Well WORLD WAR means what it says and it didnt start then.I said,it should have started.Do you think that i accept the occupation of those countries?What is your point?My country doesnt have the right to its history?Sorry if it makes someone look bad.The western democracies were weak in the beginning and have some responsibility.But it would be strange to blame them for the actions of Germany and Russia that caused the whole war!

[Type941]

You see to continuously make claims that you can pinpoint who started the war - in one paragraph! I think you are very naive in that sense, as you keep only pointing out what concerns you only (MY COUNTRY).

The war didn't start by Hitler in sept 39 some say, but in 37 when JApan invaded or when Anschluss happened. You seem to give Allies a Pass on germany in the 30s but I think it was exactly the reason why Hitler BLUFFED them into believeing he had an army to crush them all.

Make no mistake about it - had the Germans started a war 3 years later as advised and only on 1 front - there could have been a VERY different story.

Also, the war in Finland was what convinced Hitler to attack USSR and Hitler's believe after that war that USSR was very weak militarily was his downfall, as he was never going to win a war on 2 fronts. Had he pressed on battle of Britain, and who knows what the result would have been. IT's all very interdependent. If you can only view it from your very strong unti USSR view than the debate becomes nothing more than an argument on who's right and who's wrong. Many many historians say that the events like Munich conference was the reason why Hitler thought it was OK to attack as he felt he'd get away.

He got away in Slovakia.
He got away in Austria.
Only in Poland he didn't get away. From that sequence of events, it looks like the war began a bit sooner than Sept 3rd.

[sergbuto]

My country doesnt have the right to its history?Sorry if it makes someone look bad.

It can't make look bad what/who is already very bad. There is no excuse to what happened to your country and it is not acceptable in any way. But in my opinion this sad period in history of your country may have affected your judgement concerning the topic of this thread. I guess you would not agree on that and certainly have the right to do so.

If Germany and USSR started the war then why western democracies went to war only against Germany. I guess they were choosing between evil and less evil in terms of how it seemed at that time.

Did Stalin have plans to exterminate the whole Finnish population or make them slaves or he was more afraid of the revolt against him inside the USSR? Who knows? But Hitler certainly had plans to wipe out a few nations from the world map and was at the same time democraticly elected leader.

Naturally, none of this should be considered as a slightest excuse to what happened.

As to Sweden not supporting Finland at that time, naturally, they did not want to get involved in the war even for the right thing. It all comes to double-moral standards which can be seen in politics nowdays as well.

[Happy Times]

Type941.You have clearly misunderstood me.My point was that generally historians pinpoint it there.To my country as you put it it started when those Russian bombs dropped without warning in 39.To the Americans it started with Japanese bombs in 41,get the drift?No point debating about this, do you agree?About my strong anti USSR(not against the people)attitude,to me it is the same as Nazi-Germany.The fact that somebody lived an ok life there isnt an excuse,so did many people in Germany.And i dont think that individual Russians should start feeling bad about the past.Its the present administration in Russia that should try to have better relations with its neigbours.

[Kapitan]

in this world no one can get on with every one there will always be one with problems and others trying to offload thier problems on others or passing the blame.

no one should feel bad about the past of thier country its been and gone what matter is now and tommorow not then "then" happend yesterday last year 100 years ago its been and gone we cant change it so all we can do is move on.

[Happy Times]

Yeah,well looking at the Northern Ireland and Middle East how do you see this going away by just good will? :roll: Im not the only one in Finland that has claims to those lands.This is an issue that will live in the collective memory of a nation.Doesnt go away by wishing,threatening or trying to brush it aside.

[CCIP]

As someone who lived on those lands for many years before... well...

Oh give it up.
As much as I sympathise with Finland as a country and as much as I love the people... seriously, I don't believe in this whole scenario. It's a very confusing story; there's not much in the way of ethnic or at least cultural Finns (an overstatement, even!) living on the isthmus at all (I haven't met any in all my years there, in fact). A return to Finland would entail irrecoverable losses to hundreds of thousands of people who own property, property which I don't think either of the states involved would be willing to compensate for. And these are people who, most importantly, never had any ill intentions towards the Finns and had no say in the events which led to the situation.

And, morally speaking, as someone born in Leningrad - again, and this isn't to say anything about my attitude to the Finns - but I think Finland got away with a more-than-fair deal considering the scale of the crime they were conscious, if very reluctant partners in.

The bottom line is that, in real-world, un-idealized terms, Finland's story is (ironically, perhaps) the happiest one of all the Baltic countries, and I've always been very happy for that.

[Damo1977]

dammo before i throw you out of a window id like you to know one thing it wasnt on purpose (go figure) :D

Ahhhhhhh, you evil juvenile deliquent, was that your idea for my Avatar, well revenge will be sweet :lol: remember, revenge is best served cold ;)

Anyhow a question to settle my curiosity, was Sweden accidently bombed during WW2 or lose soldiers (not volunteers) by accidental border firefights etc?

Hi ho, hi ho its off to work I go,
take care all

[Kapitan]

if it was bombed it probly be by the germans the russians were more intrested down south and the british bombers couldnt go that far seeing as they had to get passed norway first

[Happy Times]

Oh give it up.
As much as I sympathise with Finland as a country and as much as I love the people... seriously, I don't believe in this whole scenario. It's a very confusing story; there's not much in the way of ethnic or at least cultural Finns (an overstatement, even!) living on the isthmus at all (I haven't met any in all my years there, in fact).Reason you havent seen Finns in the Karelian isthmus is that they chose the uncertain future as refugees in their own country instead of execution or slavery in Syberia. A return to Finland would entail irrecoverable losses to hundreds of thousands of people who own property, property which I don't think either of the states involved would be willing to compensate for. And these are people who, most importantly, never had any ill intentions towards the Finns and had no say in the events which led to the situation.Yes hundreds of thousands of people suffered and lost their property even they had no ill intentions towards the Russians and had no say in the events.BTW Finland payed huge compensations for the damage in their own land caused by someone else..

And, morally speaking, as someone born in Leningrad - again, and this isn't to say anything about my attitude to the Finns - but I think Finland got away with a more-than-fair deal considering the scale of the crime they were conscious, if very reluctant partners in.
What crime?Finland was only after what was stolen before.If your referring to the siege of Leningrad then dont you know that despite repeated requests by Hitler Finland refused to help take the city or even cut the supply route.Finland could have done both easily.This has been admitted by the Russians.So wasnt that a more-than- fair deal considering the scale of the crime that Russia was guilty?The true blame is on Stalin that didnt evacute the city.
The bottom line is that, in real-world, un-idealized terms, Finland's story is (ironically, perhaps) the happiest one of all the Baltic countries, and I've always been very happy for thatWell first Finland isnt a Baltic country.Second,in that list it doesnt take much to be the "happiest"..The others were occupied,robbed,the people were killed and enslaved and partly replaced with new immigrants.So in real-world in un-idealized terms the story wasnt happy or even pretty :doh:

[Damo1977]

Well first Finland isnt a Baltic country.

Phew I was right!! It is Scandanavia, along with Sweden, Norway, Denmark, I thought things had changed so I didn't say anything. :up: I am not sure about Iceland or Greenland, maybe there are too?

Anyhow, Happy Times, I understand what you are saying, and I think a few others do too. But the majority of people have lost land, belongings and loved ones during WW2 and over the centuries, by invasions and reinvasions. Both of my sides of family lost land, property and people due to WW2. My mums side lost there farm to a thing called 'Collective Farming' by those nasty invading Russian Hordes ;) , and a few of the children got 'hurt' by a handful of completely sick and evil Russian Soldiers. I would love for my family to get their farm back or compensation or revenge against those soldiers. But it ain't going to happen. It is a waste of time thinking or worrying about it.

Like Kapitan said "Lets move on". Otherwise history is bound to repeat itself. Hopefully it won't, otherwise Europe, USA and the majority of the world won't be worrying about China and the economic and regional giant it is becoming. There will be a few other things on our mind!

[Type941]

See, the way you think Happy Times is that it seems a new war only with Russia this time with Nato's support would do for you. Is this what you want? Or you expect now Russia to hand back Korelia peacefuly, volonteraly. Why don't you go to your parliament and demand your country do something about it, rather than sit here and type an angry rant every time. That might be more useful at least you could have said you did something. May be you'll learn along the way the reasons why it's not done. Your mentality is what I don't like - you are hung up in the past and with people like you there will never be full piece because no matter what someone does, you will be bitter and angry about something else.

A separate question: Can you tell me why Finland was fighting USSR with Hitler though near Leningrad or was it just revenge and Finland wanted to get its territories back only, and Hitler being there sieging leningrad was just a coincidence?

[Happy Times]

See, the way you think Happy Times is that it seems a new war only with Russia this time with Nato's support would do for you. Is this what you want? Or you expect now Russia to hand back Korelia peacefuly, volonteraly. No i would never want my country to suffer again.Finland isnt a Nato country BTW.So what could a country of 5million do to country of 150million?And no i dont that they will,atleast these leaders.But they are negotiating with Japan but hey,thats a bigger country.Why don't you go to your parliament and demand your country do something about it, rather than sit here and type an angry rant every time. That might be more useful at least you could have said you did something. May be you'll learn along the way the reasons why it's not done. Actually the person i voted for parlament is behind the idea,so hes doing the lobbying for me,thats his job.I have also put my name in a big citizen adress.The reason it is not done is because world isnt fair and you can take by force what you want.Your mentality is what I don't like - you are hung up in the past and with people like you there will never be full piece because no matter what someone does, you will be bitter and angry about something else. You dont like that i remind what USSR was really about and the Homo Sovieticus that it produced.This thread was about the past and you started defending the USSR,that gets to me.It hurts you to think about your family and yourself as victims without full comprehension.So its you that wants to hang to the past as it was told to you.And actually this is the only subject that gets me fired up like this.

A separate question: Can you tell me why Finland was fighting USSR with Hitler though near Leningrad or was it just revenge and Finland wanted to get its territories back only, and Hitler being there sieging leningrad was just a coincidence?Separate answer:Look at the map!Finland wanted back her territories so that kinda blocks the north side out of the city.Hitler had his agenda we had ours,they coincided somewhat at that time.If we would have been after revenge the city would have been wiped out.

[Type941]

If we would have been after revenge the city would have been wiped out.

Alas they thought better, because wiping out Leningrad would have been their dumbest move, don't you think?


And don't get me started on Japan. All they do is demand demand demand in no uncertain terms. With that sort of foreing policy I'm surprised that Russia is even talking to them. But they have to talk - to this day I think on paper Russia is at a state of War with Japan or something like that, because they never signed war ending agreement.

Your view, in EXTREME in the end will segreated every single country based on nationality. You don't suppose the Americans should get on the ships and sail back to UK/Netherlands/France and leave the continent to Mexico and native americans? Really, that's what you propose, with returning land once conquired in time of confilct.

Who owns Alsaise Loraine right now btw? France, right (honestly, curious). For example, Lithuania may demand a lot of land back because they once had a rather big empire. France can lay claim to may territories, etc. I think you are being very unrealistic about land grabs and how they happened.

I don't see why Russia wants to hold on to Karelia so much, but perhaps it is worse more to it than friendly relations with Finland? I don't really have a clue but the people who live there TODAY could probably be agaisnt being shipped out. Although if Finland will pay them and accomodate fully - who knows. Have they tried doing that (i.e. buy it back so to speak?).

[Type941]

just to add, the original discussion. The ideology chosen by USSR was wrong for it, and mainly was the opposite to what the Western countries thought was right. That along doesn't grant the West to be an agressor towards USSR. But the USSR government alone had twisted that ideology to serve their own personal greed and for that it failed.

Now, Nazi germany has created an ideology that was based on race superiority and that certain nations deserved to be wiped out completely as unworthy (among which, the slavs, jews). Hitler wanted this 'living space' and for that he tortured, murdered and killed millions of people. The way from the start of the war germans treated russian POWs was nowhere near the treatment french ond british pows recieved. Don't argue on that, it's a fact. Moreover, Hitler 'fabricated' this whole aric nation crap. Didn't he force his soldiers to 'mix' (rape) with the Norwegians in order to sort of get this 'tall, blond, blue eyed' generation. 10s of thousands of women were raped that way.

The key difference between USSR and Nazism was that one country chose communism and later twisted it into an ideology that made people into sheep and made the top very powerful, while the latter said that only certain nation deserves a right to live and the rest simply should be eliminated.

If this difference is hard to grasp, than I'd like to see you go to China and tell them about their communism. Apparently noone's doing that because China can probably kick some serious arse if it comes to this. So - let's beat on USSR and its communism in the past, it's just much safer and convinient.

YOu can get appaled by someone trying to protect USSR, and I'm not protecting it and saying it was ok. BUt I'm appaled that all of a sudden, 60 years on, the Nazi Germany is all of a sudden just some trouble maker and was very good, except Hitler spoiled the party with his nazi stuff, but hey - it was ONLY 10 million before th war, so that's ok. And to see people here almost sympathizing Nazi germany is disgusting and if you sympathise with Nazi ideology you are a dispickable human being.

[Damo1977]

If this difference is hard to grasp, than I'd like to see you go to China and tell them about their communism. Apparently noone's doing that because China can probably kick some serious arse if it comes to this. So - let's beat on USSR and its communism in the past, it's just much safer and convinient.

Yes China is another one with 'Crimes against Humanity'. I choose the Soviet Union as a comparision for my question, not because I don't like the Russians, but I gathered people could relate to it more. Yes I could have choosen China with their human rights record

And the thing is this is still pretty much going on today. But you only hear some faint mumblings from our leaders about it...

'The megamurdering states of the 20th century have been: the U.S.S.R. (1917-1987), 61,911,000; Communist China (1949-1987), 35,236,000; Nazi Germany (1933-1945), 20,946,000; and Nationalist (or Kuomintang) China (1928-1949), 10,076,000. These are followed by the "lesser" megamurdering states: Japan (1936-1945), 5,964,000; Cambodia (1975-1979), 2,035,000; Turkey (1909-1918), 1,883,000; Vietnam (1945-1987), 1,678,000; North Korea (1948-1987), 1,663,000; Poland (1945-1948), 1,585,000; Pakistan (1958-1987), 1,503,000; Mexico (1900-1920), 1,417,000; Yugoslavia (1944-1987), 1,072,000; Czarist Russia (1900-1917), 1,066,000.'
Death by Government by R. J. Rummel

So please oh please don't think I hate Russians or anyone for that matter.

[Type941]

why isn't US on the list? Or is it only non-democracies listed? I suspect the US would be a few million, may be 2-4 if including Iraq, WW2 (Japan should be half a million?) and Vietnam/Korea; can you check that source you used?

[Damo1977]

Those stats were from a book, and are on at least 2 websites I know of. Cannot find the original website, but I think it was selling the book, the stats are the same but more explanation.

128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS
4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime

III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS
8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse

heres the link
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

Oh No!! I have started it.....


*1hr later....I came across this site, takes some reading but it is of interest*
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatx.htm

[Kapitan]

none of those figures are 100% accurate

no one knows the exact number that were murderd that why most say 6 million jews were gassed cause they dont know the true total it was never recorded

[Damo1977]

Firstly, do you ever sleep Kapitan?

Secondly I wasn't saying they were, but what really is the difference between 1,000,000 and 100,000,000 because it is still a crime on a massive scale.

[joea]

why isn't US on the list? Or is it only non-democracies listed? I suspect the US would be a few million, may be 2-4 if including Iraq, WW2 (Japan should be half a million?) and Vietnam/Korea; can you check that source you used?
BS alert!! Why are you including WW2 or say Korea? Both wars started by others? The US was hardly alone in inflicting casualties during WW2, how many German civilians were killed by British bombings or Soviets at the end fot he war? Anyway caualties in war are a bit different from genocides. Japanese civilians casualties were 300-400000 AFAIK.

[Skybird]

Numbers.

This is what they're about:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.RINGS.OF.TEARS.HTM
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.PHOTOS.ROOM1.HTM

The horror cannot be understood numerically. Is there really a difference between the hell one life went thorugh, and one hundred million hells? If so, where is that difference marked? At a hundred being slaughtered? Thousand? Ten thousand? Or just one family of five?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM#FIG search the figures and tables to get some impressions. They are part of a complete book you can find on that page. i have linked to that site before.
Especially this summary is revealing, comparing democides (different from genocide) between democracies and totalitarian regimes.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.FIG23.3.GIF
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.FIG23.4.GIF
And this despite the clear difference in domestic democides:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.FIG1.2.GIF

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/LIST.HTM The author and owner of that website is a highly reputated international researcher on these matters, author of several international empirical studies and books. Most other authors having published on these themes practically adressed parts of his statistical findings in the last twenty years or so. I know part of his work from former occupation of mine. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/PERSONAL.HTM

Be aware that by definition of the UN declaration of 1948 rejecting help for desasters like starvations is defined as genocide. War and tyranny have not been the most murderous tools of death in government's toolkits in the last century. We must not reach as far as Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany and MaoTsTung'S China to find mass killings of scales and dimensions human mind cannot make an image of. just look at your own country, whereever you come from, and your own government, and see how they deal with present world genocide and play it down for economical reasons and strategical advantages, and you already see the statistics of "evil". "Unterlassene Hilfeleistung", if you flee an accident site or do not care for a person in medical emergency, is a crime and must be penalized according to German law. It should be the same for politicians splitting hairs in the general UN essambly over wether that mass dying in let's say Sudan is "genocide" or for some perverted, man-hating logic is not. The money it would take to give immediate help to those dying for lacking food and water and most basic medial supplies is NOTHING against the brain-killing ammounts of moneys we shout hooray about when the get pumped into the lastets hightech toys for generals. None of our countries has reasons to be proud in this. Right now not a single man on earth should have to die by hunger, thirst or disease, if we would have the will not only to bring up the money (and it takes so bitterly small money only), but to effectively organize it, and this immediate help to secure immediuate survival could be done without us beeing in need to lower our living standards at all, that small the needed sum of money is for just the immedate hotspots is. Building an aircraft carrier costs MUCH more. Just a little bit of modesty in our own demands concerning living standards, and a long-term perspective could be realized that chnages the world in such a way that such catclysmic genocides even would no more appear, and thus would not needed to be adresssed by emergency rescue efforts. The specliests for these issues are the help organizations, not the governments, the latter used to come up with exaggerated costs as an escuse not to get started. All of our countries should die of shame. We all are a$$holes spilling moraline and superior ideas onto each other, but truth is: we don't give a damn if masskilling takes place right under our own eyes, now, on this planet, with our acceptance. And if we get reminded of the bloodbath going on - we shoot the messenger, for we prefer to continue with the TV show instead of getting reminded of what sick, murderous psychopaths we are.

We are in desparate need to readjust our priorities, really.

[Abraham]

The horror cannot be understood numerically. Is there really a difference between the hell one life went thorugh, and one hundred million hells?Well said! But we can hardly blame states to make war as long as we as humans sometimes make hell for one another as well.
It should be the same for politicians splitting hairs in the general UN essambly over wether that mass dying in let's say Sudan is "genocide" or for some perverted, man-hating logic is not.Yep Skybird, it's called "politics".
When something is defined as "genocide" by the General Assembly it is compulsary for the U.N. to do something about it. Which means - in practice - sending Peacekeepers or full military intervention. Which will inevitably means choosing sides. Much like the NATO in Kosovo and Bosnia. Who will provide the troops? The U.S.? NATO?
And countries like Zimbabwe and Burma will be very afraid about creating a precedent. Because after all, it is mingling in the internal affairs of the country concerned and the authonomy of member states is one of the principles of the U.N.
The principles of the U.N. are its strength and weakness at the same time.

As can be seen from history, even if you intervene with the best of intentions you may cause a mess...

[Skybird]

I know - that's one of the reasons why "genocide convention" was implemented - to m ake sure that help in case of immedtae emergncy is mandatory, and not an uncalculatable question of voluntary action - where the lack of any mandatory, binding solidarity could lead to we just have seen in America and her rendezvous with Katrina.

It is politics, yes. seriously flawed politics, having created the most murderous political system our history has ever seen, an international conspiracy of economy and governments to reach and secure the status quo. Compare to what we see today, Stalin and Hitler were dilletants. Orwell was a dilletant, too. Control is not from outside, but inside of people's heads. That way we even manage to hide from our awareness the massacre that we accept to take place. Secret police is no longer needed that way. everyone guards and protects the regime by himself and even does not know it. the vocabulary to cover this is huge. Emotions coming from usage of these magic words are charming. How can it be any diffrent than that we are right in what we think and what we do, or not do?

"Let's be reasonable about it!" - what is that any different than just our valium and justification of inaction?

Concerning troops - if we wpould stop makling arms sales and coprrupt politcal deals with local evil-doers because we expect economical advanatges from that, if we wouldn'T have messed up so damn many places over the last decades for these reasons, the problem wouldn't be so big as it is now. I see no problem why we shouldn'T be able to militarily protect help efforts in meegncy supply operations. western nations are sending hundreds of thousands of troops around the globe for far more idiotic intentions. If Iraq or Afghanistan can be done that way, then operations in Africa or southeast Asia can be done, too.

This is immediate rescue only. There must be a change in global economy and longterm polciy as well, else the blood level sooner or later will raise to our chins and noses.

[Kapitan]

damo my sleeping pattern is quite muffed so i do but i dont sleep :D

[Type941]

why isn't US on the list? Or is it only non-democracies listed? I suspect the US would be a few million, may be 2-4 if including Iraq, WW2 (Japan should be half a million?) and Vietnam/Korea; can you check that source you used?

BS alert!! Why are you including WW2 or say Korea? Both wars started by others? The US was hardly alone in inflicting casualties during WW2, how many German civilians were killed by British bombings or Soviets at the end fot he war? Anyway caualties in war are a bit different from genocides. Japanese civilians casualties were 300-400000 AFAIK.

BS Alert Indeed. Next time read what's written, not what you think is written. :doh:

Here's some for you.

http://leighhouse.typepad.com/blog/images/kool_aid.jpg

[joea]

why isn't US on the list? Or is it only non-democracies listed? I suspect the US would be a few million, may be 2-4 if including Iraq, WW2 (Japan should be half a million?) and Vietnam/Korea; can you check that source you used?

BS alert!! Why are you including WW2 or say Korea? Both wars started by others? The US was hardly alone in inflicting casualties during WW2, how many German civilians were killed by British bombings or Soviets at the end fot he war? Anyway caualties in war are a bit different from genocides. Japanese civilians casualties were 300-400000 AFAIK.

BS Alert Indeed. Next time read what's written, not what you think is written. :doh:

Here's some for you.

http://leighhouse.typepad.com/blog/images/kool_aid.jpg

Thanks I needed that like to join me? I read what you wrote about non-democracies, I just don't think you can include casualties inflicted in the course of military ops in WW2 or Korea by democracies or non-democracies with these genocides.. I would consider a better comparison for what we are talking deaths in Iraq during the UN embargo, or of course what the native americans or slaves went through (not restricted to the USA but in varying degrees throughout the New World :nope: ) I never thought the USSR should be compared to Nazi Germany. You should know I have many close freinds from the ex-USSR and other East bloc countries they have said stuff similar to what you and CCIP have said. A real eye opener for me. Sorry if you took it personally. :up:

[Type941]

I believe that the Nazi and USSR death toll during WW2 is factored into those figures - for example USSR lost about 20million during WW2. I believe that part is added to the 60million they list as total, and the same for Nazi germany where they lost 10million +. For that reason only I felt that since the dude actually factored those in, but didn't include USA in the main count, I felt it was somewhat interesting as to why he left it out, and my thought was only because the US was a democracy. His thesis is only about the proportion of totalitarian governments vs. democratic so it shuold be read only with that information in mind.

[Damo1977]

so it shuold be read only with that information in mind.

All sources of information you read,hear or see, should not be taken as the 'ultimate' or 'gospel' truth.