Wishlist

[Deamon]

Ok guys if you have wishes that you would like to see in a WWI subsim than post them here please :)

Deamon

[DAB]

Ok guys if you have wishes that you would like to see in a WWI subsim than post them here please :)

Deamon

Expandability. - I'd like to see the project open ended so that modders can create more submarines and perhaps boats from other countries. British, French, Austria-Hungerian...

I'll add more when I think of them. From what i've read about the project, this sim is more comprehensive then my imagination.

[Oesten]

Realism. Especially in terms of the campaign.

Lots of single ships sailing all over the world - very few ships were sunk in convoy in WWI, compared to how many were sunk sailing alone.

Crew modelling, like SHIII the sub should have a crew. The skill of the crew will affect the performance of the boat in combat.

An unskilled crew might even make a mistake when diving, leave a valve open, and result in your boat sinking to the bottom without the enemy having needed to drop a single depth charge. This was more common in WWI, when submarines were new and somewhat unsafe and unreliable.

Destroyers shouldn't have depth charges until 1916. Until then the submarine can only be sunk by surface gunfire or by mines.

Mines should be a major problem in WWI. Biggest killer of U-boats in that way. Belts of them in the English Channel especially, and the North Sea later.

Aircraft - patrolling seaplanes were common in 1917-18. They can't really destroy a sub unless they get a direct hit with a bomb. But they can at least report you by wireless and send a destroyer patrol heading in your direction.

Warships to sink as well as merchants.

Q-ships.

Some way of penalising the player's career if he disobeys standing orders, like sinking ships without warning in 1914 or 1916. That will force them to come up to the surface and shoot it out with guns.

Merchants that can be ordered to heave to and abandon ship. Very common in WWI, most merchants didn't resist for long when caught alone. The U-boat merely sank the stationary ship afterwards. A few will resist to the end, others will stop after they've taken a few hits from your deck gun, and many (especially neutrals) will stop at once and do what they're told.

Boarding and demolition parties would be great! That way you can sink merchants without even using up torpedoes and cannon shells.

Lots of very small anti-submarine craft (trawlers). Very slow, very poorly armed, no depth charges, but Britain had 3,000 of them. And they can call in the big destroyers when they spot a U-boat.

Help from the German surface fleet would be nice. A few light cruisers can nip out from Belgium and drive away the British destroyers temporarily. Might save your butt one day.

Zeppelins on patrol over the North Sea reporting ships for you. Only one or two of them airborne at once, and they are very slow, but better than no air recon at all.

[Deamon]

Thanks for the first replys guys. I hope more people will express their wishes. But i see so far whe have very common wishes.

Realism. Especially in terms of the campaign.

What type of campaign would you like to see ? Dynamic or missions ?

Lots of single ships sailing all over the world - very few ships were sunk in convoy in WWI, compared to how many were sunk sailing alone.

Yes this is true, but what do you try to say me by that ? That it should be very difficult to attack a convoy ?

Crew modelling, like SHIII the sub should have a crew. The skill of the crew will affect the performance of the boat in combat.

Yes it's definately gonna be this way. But i plan a very different way of crew management.

An unskilled crew might even make a mistake when diving, leave a valve open, and result in your boat sinking to the bottom without the enemy having needed to drop a single depth charge. This was more common in WWI, when submarines were new and somewhat unsafe and unreliable.

That is true but rather for the older designs that still had ventilation masts with quite big vents, less reserve buoyancy without pressure proven bulkheads and maybe couldn't blow their tanks so fast as the newer typs. The leadership learned quite fast from accidents and improvments were introduced very quickly.

But not just because of cews fault had boats suffered accidents but sometimes because the yard workers introduced faults in vital parts like a vent. Later in the war as imigrants were employed for maintenance of the u-boats did placed some of them, who worked as saboteurs, charges with a time fuze prior to egress.

Destroyers shouldn't have depth charges until 1916. Until then the submarine can only be sunk by surface gunfire or by mines.

Don't forget to mention nets and especialy towed nets that were regularly used to hunt u-boats. And there were depth charges prior to 1916. But this were towed charges that were ignited via a cable connection. But this wasn't so mutch effective at all. Another mentionable tactic was to suffocate an u-baot by not letting it to the surface. That happaned especialy near the enemy ports where, given a calm see, every available boat and ship was sended out and a big area was occupied by this boats that was bigger than the u-boat could get out of it with the remaining battery capacity. 200-300 vehicles could have participated in sutch a hunt, sounds interesting huh ?

Mines should be a major problem in WWI. Biggest killer of U-boats in that way. Belts of them in the English Channel especially, and the North Sea later.

Yes, exact navigation will be the main challange prior to the introduction of real depth charges. That is one of the reasons why i struggle to implement a realistic navigation. There will be no digital GPS maps in my sim.

Aircraft - patrolling seaplanes were common in 1917-18. They can't really destroy a sub unless they get a direct hit with a bomb. But they can at least report you by wireless and send a destroyer patrol heading in your direction.

Oh yeah and a wide spreaded use of ballons and zeppelines.

Q-ships.

Oh yeah that will be a nice challange :arrgh!:

Some way of penalising the player's career if he disobeys standing orders, like sinking ships without warning in 1914 or 1916. That will force them to come up to the surface and shoot it out with guns.

Yes that will definatel be this way.

Merchants that can be ordered to heave to and abandon ship. Very common in WWI, most merchants didn't resist for long when caught alone. The U-boat merely sank the stationary ship afterwards. A few will resist to the end, others will stop after they've taken a few hits from your deck gun, and many (especially neutrals) will stop at once and do what they're told.

Yes that's the plan. A WWI sim will be quite a different experiance.

Boarding and demolition parties would be great! That way you can sink merchants without even using up torpedoes and cannon shells.

Yes, and charges will always be part of your equipment.

Lots of very small anti-submarine craft (trawlers). Very slow, very poorly armed, no depth charges, but Britain had 3,000 of them. And they can call in the big destroyers when they spot a U-boat.

Communication betwin units and HQ of one war partie is of major concern for me.

Help from the German surface fleet would be nice. A few light cruisers can nip out from Belgium and drive away the British destroyers temporarily. Might save your butt one day.

Do you know any incidents where this happaned ?

Also at the end of the war it was quite hazardous to move out to the sea cose many water mines were riped away from their chain and floated freely around. By the end of the war this "free" mines were everywhere.

Zeppelins on patrol over the North Sea reporting ships for you. Only one or two of them airborne at once, and they are very slow, but better than no air recon at all.

What i missed in all the sims were regular updates on the current situation from your HQ. I will definately take care of it.

@DAB:

Expandability. - I'd like to see the project open ended so that modders can create more submarines and perhaps boats from other countries. British, French, Austria-Hungerian...

Yes, i definately want to do it this way. I must admit that i have big hopes that there will be alot of moders for our project.

Deamon

[Oesten]

Dynamic campaign would be best. Simply sail the U-boat to a high traffic area, submerge, and wait for the targets to pass by.

Attacking convoys was no more difficult in WWI than in WWII. Except that there were no wolfpacks, so the U-boats had to attack alone. And the U-boat crews weren't trained to attack convoys. Most of the time, U-boat commanders in WWI simply didn't want to take the risk of engaging a convoy, when there were still enough lone merchants around to provide much easier pickings.

The convoys in WWI were small, about 12-24 ships, and were heavily escorted for their size, 4-8 escorts. Usually 2-4 destroyers, and the rest armed trawlers. With so many escorts guarding so few ships, attacking such convoys was fairly difficult for a lone U-boat. Stragglers were common and the U-boats always went for stragglers first.

The German surface fleet was a threat to convoys between Bergen in Norway and Britain. On 16 October 1917, two fast German light cruisers, Brummer and Bremse, attacked a convoy consisting of 12 merchants, 2 destroyers and 2 armed trawlers. The convoy was wiped out except for 3 merchants that managed to escape. The German cruisers then evaded British cruiser patrols and escaped.

On 12 December 1917, four German destroyers attacked a convoy of 6 merchants, 2 destroyers and 4 armed trawlers. The Germans wiped out this convoy with only one crippled British destroyer surviving, and suffered no losses themselves.

There were a few occassions when the Germans sortied cruisers or even battlecruisers in attempts to inflict loss on the British destroyer and cruiser patrols. Two such incidents where in November 1917 and April 1918, but were generally unsuccessful.

[Deamon]

Dynamic campaign would be best. Simply sail the U-boat to a high traffic area, submerge, and wait for the targets to pass by.

Yes that's what i intended to do, and some special assignments thrown in randomly.

Attacking convoys was no more difficult in WWI than in WWII. Except that there were no wolfpacks, so the U-boats had to attack alone.

That's not true. There were no sutch developed wolfpack operations like in WWII but there were organized group operations with u-boats that keept track of the convoy and radioed to the others and when they were close enough they started to prosecute and attack the convoy as well. Similar like in WWII had u-boats get their search area assigned bounding on search areas of the other u-boats but also due to a lack of u-boats this wolfpack tactics couldn't be conducted in full effectivity. But all this was very mutch towards the end of the war.


And the U-boat crews weren't trained to attack convoys.

I disagree, at the beginning the u-boats were supposed to attack enemy battle groups and this are convoys aren't they ?

Most of the time, U-boat commanders in WWI simply didn't want to take the risk of engaging a convoy, when there were still enough lone merchants around to provide much easier pickings.

I readed a dozen of war report books of different commanders and they attacked everything that came infront of their tubes, being it a lonley ship or a convoy. So i can't agree with you. They were all quite agressive.

The convoys in WWI were small, about 12-24 ships, and were heavily escorted for their size, 4-8 escorts. Usually 2-4 destroyers, and the rest armed trawlers. With so many escorts guarding so few ships, attacking such convoys was fairly difficult for a lone U-boat. Stragglers were common and the U-boats always went for stragglers first.

When they were any strugglers but from all the storys i readed they always attacked at the next possible opportunity couse they always considered it to be the only opportunity they might get. So far never has ever mentioned that they attacked a straggler but sneaked right in to the convoy and all hell broke loose.

The German surface fleet was a threat to convoys between Bergen in Norway and Britain. On 16 October 1917, two fast German light cruisers, Brummer and Bremse, attacked a convoy consisting of 12 merchants, 2 destroyers and 2 armed trawlers. The convoy was wiped out except for 3 merchants that managed to escape. The German cruisers then evaded British cruiser patrols and escaped.

On 12 December 1917, four German destroyers attacked a convoy of 6 merchants, 2 destroyers and 4 armed trawlers. The Germans wiped out this convoy with only one crippled British destroyer surviving, and suffered no losses themselves.

There were a few occassions when the Germans sortied cruisers or even battlecruisers in attempts to inflict loss on the British destroyer and cruiser patrols. Two such incidents where in November 1917 and April 1918, but were generally unsuccessful.

Yes there was a bunch of surface actions that were successful. But not aggresive enough for my taste. They intended to force the brits to put their big ships in to convoys and split up their high sea fleet that way. The big ships would gave a good protection for the convoys but also good targets for u-boats and when the german fleet would start some raids again less ships would be available to counter it.

You also stated on the other thred on SHIII forum that the torpedos in WWI could run only straight forward well that's wrong, angle shots up to 90° were possible on almost all torpedos applied in WWI, at least on the german side.

You also mentioned that there were no TDC, that is not exactly true, there were no mechanical TDC like in WWII but there were torpedo directors instead. They had not to shoot by eye or calculat the shot angle on paper or something.

That wasn't all so premitive like it might appear on the first look. In fact you would be surprized if you would know what all they had back then. Some u-boat have even applied electronic warfare in it's most basic form.

And i'm going to include all of this stuff Ahahaha

You will be astunished by the level of ditail my u-boats are modeled.

Deamon

[ABBAFAN]

LOVELY STUFF!!!!!!

my list of things;

1 bridge and deck views
2 authentic torpedo and gun aim and fire
3 parrafin powered uboats that can blow up(as im sure some must have)
4 torpedoes that perform like ww1 types
5 visual signaling methods(flags lamps etc)
5b primitive morse wireless
6 gramaphone with poular ww1 music
7 being able to ccontrol boat with boarding party in
8 authentic early war rules of engagement
9 airships that can be shot at mabye blimps too
10 lots of smoke from coal fired ships
11 authentic ship types
12 possible friendly fire
13 enemy subs mines nets
14 missions of historical significance such as dardanelles scapa flow and things involving crevice like coastal places
15 perhaps nasty weather that smacks uboat to bits
16 sea wildlife



any of these features would be nice.
:arrgh!:

[Deamon]

3 parrafin powered uboats that can blow up(as im sure some must have)

What is parrafin please ?

6 gramaphone with poular ww1 music


Were there ever gramophones on WWI u-boats ? Never heared of it.

Deamon

[2019]

What is parrafin please ?

i'm sure you know this, but you;ve might not heard this in english.
the first u-boots were parrafin powered. ;)

[Deamon]

i'm sure you know this, but you;ve might not heard this in english.
the first u-boots were parrafin powered. ;)

The first u-boats ? About whitch u-boats are you talking about and of whitch nation ?

And have never heard anything about parrafin. I'm knowledgeable onlny on u-boats since U1. I'm realy not familiar with the origins of the u-boats.

And i still don't know what parrafin is ?

[gdogghenrikson]

I wish SH4 was ww1 based

[Deamon]

I wish SH4 was ww1 based

Hehehe, I wish not :D

You are so mutch in to WWI ?

Deamon

[Xeidos2]

Parrafin was the fuel used in some of the earliest submarines. It's basically melted wax. It would usually leave a big white column of exhaust smoke. One German submarine officer said that he felt like the children of Isreal in the Bible story of Exodus because they always had this big white cloud hanging over them where ever they went. Parafin had other problems and was quickly replaced once diseal engines became available.

[Deamon]

Parrafin was the fuel used in some of the earliest submarines.

British only or all submarines ?

And haven't england ever used gazoline ?

It's basically melted wax.

Wax ? that sounds troublesome. How can wax power a piston engine ?

It would usually leave a big white column of exhaust smoke. One German submarine officer said that he felt like the children of Isreal in the Bible story of Exodus because they always had this big white cloud hanging over them where ever they went.

So than it must have been used on early german prototypes as well ? whitch one were this ?

Parafin had other problems and was quickly replaced once diseal engines became available.

Again, where in england ?

Deamon

[Xeidos2]

In the book titled, Submarine Boats, in chapter 15, there's an article written by the XO onboard the U-9 before the war, and shortly after the start of the war. In this article he describes life aboard the early submarines. There's a paragraph where he writes that the submarine had four parrafin engines. It's implied that he was writting this around 1912. There's a photograph of the U-9 sailing on the surface in a harbor, the photo's caption mentions the thick column of white smoke being due to the fact that the engines were burning parrafin. I got the book from the local library. I can scan the pages and e-mail them if you're interested.

I got the impression that some of the early, kerosine powered boats experimented with using parrafin as an alternate fuel, but that this was quickly abandoned in favor of switching to diesels.

After the war, my grandfather was involved in a business venture to sell parrafin powered engines. At the beginning of the venture, the cost of parrafin was about 1/3 that of gasoline. My grandfather spent a few months attaching special carbouraters (sp?) to small 2-stroke engines that allowed the engines to run on melted parrafin instead of gasoline. Just as he finished the last conversion and they were ready to go to market, the price of parrafin shot up to match that of gasoline. The business didn't last long. My grandfather lived in Nova Scotia. One of his brothers was killed at the battle of Vimy Ridge, a step brother lost a leg. A second brother survived 2.5 years in the trenches and wrote several books about his war experiences that were published in Canada.
My grandfather was not allowed to join the service since he was the youngest and sole support for his mom. Sort of a Saving Prvt. Ryan situation in WW1.

[Deamon]

In the book titled, Submarine Boats, in chapter 15, there's an article written by the XO onboard the U-9 before the war, and shortly after the start of the war. In this article he describes life aboard the early submarines. There's a paragraph where he writes that the submarine had four parrafin engines.

Absolutely never heared of it!

ALL my sources, even thous of the imperial navy state that this were gazoline engines and has never ever mentioned anything about parrafine. I guess that this were rather alternate trials or something.

It's implied that he was writting this around 1912. There's a photograph of the U-9 sailing on the surface in a harbor, the photo's caption mentions the thick column of white smoke being due to the fact that the engines were burning parrafin.

But Gazoline do make white smoke as well! Because of this a special gazoline type was developed prior to the war that was smoke free. But was supposed to be used in war only because it was more expensive than the normal gazoline. But Otto Weddingen(U9) seem to have been on patrol once with the normal gazoline, since he mentioned this white smoke trail that concerned him has he patroled in the channel.

I got the impression that some of the early, kerosine powered boats experimented with using parrafin as an alternate fuel, but that this was quickly abandoned in favor of switching to diesels.

Kerosine ? Don't you mean gazoline ?

Anyway thats my thought too that there might have been experiments for alternate fuels.

After the war, my grandfather was involved in a business venture to sell parrafin powered engines. At the beginning of the venture, the cost of parrafin was about 1/3 that of gasoline. My grandfather spent a few months attaching special carbouraters (sp?) to small 2-stroke engines that allowed the engines to run on melted parrafin instead of gasoline. Just as he finished the last conversion and they were ready to go to market, the price of parrafin shot up to match that of gasoline. The business didn't last long. My grandfather lived in Nova Scotia. One of his brothers was killed at the battle of Vimy Ridge, a step brother lost a leg. A second brother survived 2.5 years in the trenches and wrote several books about his war experiences that were published in Canada.
My grandfather was not allowed to join the service since he was the youngest and sole support for his mom. Sort of a Saving Prvt. Ryan situation in WW1.

That is a hell of a story. Is this where you interst for WWI came from ?

Deamon

[Xeidos2]

My interest in WW1 came from reading my grandfather's brother's books, especially the one titled, "Ghost Have Warm Hands." His name is Will R. Bird. The book was recently re-published, and I saw it listed on Amazon.com, but I haven't checked to see if it's still available. It becomes a bit more than just history when you realize the things you're reading in a book actually happened to someone in your family, someone you've actually met.

The other sources of my interest in WW1 came from reading Billy Bishop's auto-biography and seeing the movie, The Blue Max, back when I was in high school.

[2019]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/202-4465432-5627865

seems like there are 7 of his books avaible on amazon.

[oRGy]

Deamon;

Speaking of missing 'features', when you read that Diary of a Uboat Commander e-book...

Do you ever get the impression that there's a certain something missing from the game you're planning? Something rather elephant sized, in fact.

Then again, it's hardly in any other games which have the effect of sanitising/glorifying war, either.

[JackieFisher]

Deamon ... I think the words "paraffin" and "gasoline" were used almost interchangeably when describing what these early subs ran on. There might have been slight differences in ingredients, but

tone

[Deamon]

Deamon;

Speaking of missing 'features', when you read that Diary of a Uboat Commander e-book...

Do you ever get the impression that there's a certain something missing from the game you're planning? Something rather elephant sized, in fact.

Then again, it's hardly in any other games which have the effect of sanitising/glorifying war, either.

I'm not fully sure what you mean. Sorry english is not my native language.

Deamon

[Deamon]

Deamon ... I think the words "paraffin" and "gasoline" were used almost interchangeably when describing what these early subs ran on.

I also have the impression that this turms are mixed up. Uboat.net call the petroleum engines, gasoline engines. But gasoline means benzine, what is curtainly wrong. The Imperial German Navy have never used benzine engines cose they like to blow up. In my understanding is paraffin not the same as petroleum but how mutch does it differ actualy if both could be used in the engines ?

There might have been slight differences in ingredients, but

tone

But what ?

[gdogghenrikson]

no starforce

[Deamon]

no starforce

:yep: :yep: :yep:

[Redwine]

I want an ingame working Whiz Wheel....

I made one for SH2 with 3 rotating wheels and one rotating cursor, and i added it to the captain room screen and it works so fine.

No TDC in that age, a whiz wheel or similar was the only way to calculate a shoot.

Thanks for your job !!! :up:

[Deamon]

I want an ingame working Whiz Wheel....

You will get it :)

I made one for SH2 with 3 rotating wheels and one rotating cursor, and i added it to the captain room screen and it works so fine.

Have you screen shots of it ?

No TDC in that age, a whiz wheel or similar was the only way to calculate a shoot.

Well, there was no TDC at that time, so there will be no in IUF as well. Only the authentical devices will be modeled, which were already researched partialy.

Thanks for your job !!! :up:

Never minde. Visit us again Sir :D

Deamon

[Redwine]

I want an ingame working Whiz Wheel....

You will get it :)

:up: I am very sad and sorry you was not part of the SH3 Dev Team :rotfl: :up:



I made one for SH2 with 3 rotating wheels and one rotating cursor, and i added it to the captain room screen and it works so fine.

Have you screen shots of it ?

Sadly not, i have not more SH2 installed.
Basically it is a set of 3 big concentric wheels with a cursor, all four movables by the mouse.

You can made all calculation made with the Whiz Wheel, you can obtain target AOB, target Relative Course, target Speed.

You only need a slider ruler to calculate range based on mast height and mast head angle and you need nothing more to calculate a firring solution.



No TDC in that age, a whiz wheel or similar was the only way to calculate a shoot.

Well, there was no TDC at that time, so there will be no in IUF as well. Only the authentical devices will be modeled, which were already researched partialy.

Correct, then you need a ingame or a printed or plastic Whiz Wheel.

If you can add a Whiz Wheel and a Range Slider calculator ruler it will be wonderful !!! :up:

I have both downloaded from some place time ago, and plus i made one as mod to works inside SH2.

If you want them all i have or made is your to be used at your pleasure.




Subsim Topic :

http://subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=34797&highlight=ingame+whiz+wheel+mod




My Mod : (I modify the wheel to works fine in meters and yards)

http://rapidshare.de/files/12374973/SH2_Ingame_Whiz_Wheel_Mod_V1.0.zip.html



Look at my signature, the link Manual TDC "HTDC Tutorial", it is the use of another of my mods, the Hardcore TDC Mod, where you can see how to make all calculations with no TDC, and even with no Whiz Wheel, completely manual mode.

http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm

Follow the links on the second page. (you have a some small page thumbnails at botom for quick navigation)
If you have this tutorial i can send it to you in HTML to navigate it in your Hard Drive, that site is so slow to navigate.



Pack of Wheels and Calculator Rulers :

http://rapidshare.de/files/12410567/Pack.zip.html



I have many .pdf files if you want them.



Thanks for your job !!! :up:

Never minde. Visit us again Sir :D

Deamon[/quote]

Just let me to know if need more as my .pdf files for be used in Photoshop.

I have many templates.

:up: thanks for your job and go ahead.

PD : when do you spect to release your WW1 sim ?

[Redwine]

I made one for SH2 with 3 rotating wheels and one rotating cursor, and i added it to the captain room screen and it works so fine.

Have you screen shots of it ?

Deamon

I found this old screen shot in one of my storages.

I modify it with some marks to be used as well in meters or yards thinking in a pacific version of the game but never was introduced into Pacific Aces Mod ....... boys dont want to make math calculations :rotfl:

The girl is not included, is from another mod i made called "Comisario Politico" in english may be "Political Marshall" or some thing..... the political guard onboard.


http://img2.echo.cx/img2/3990/sh2ingamewhizwheel0qw.th.jpg (http://img2.echo.cx/my.php?image=sh2ingamewhizwheel0qw.jpg)


http://img2.echo.cx/img2/3990/sh2ingamewhizwheel0qw.jpg (http://img2.echo.cx/my.php?image=sh2ingamewhizwheel0qw.jpg)


:up:

[2019]

The girl is not included, is from another mod i made called "Comisario Politico" in english may be "Political Marshall" or some thing..... the political guard onboard.
:rotfl:

I wish i had these too on my sub.
hmm, perhaps an idea for a eater egg.

[2019]

@Redwine.

that hot girl, did you painted her yourself?

[Sulikate]

she looks so sweeeeeeeet :arrgh!:

[2019]

she looks so sweeeeeeeet :arrgh!:
Imagine your self on a lonely uboat with her as compagnion :rotfl:

Deamon i think we strongly ned to implement this feature in IUF... let it be just a 18+ sim. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

app. for my perverted obsesion. :rock:

Btw, Sulikate did you have received those files of the holland sub?

[Redwine]

@Redwine.

that hot girl, did you painted her yourself?

:rotfl: no i am not able to draw well as that....

She is a so strict "political marshall", when i do some thing wrong she tie me at bed..... :rotfl:

I dont remember, may be it is a Sorayama pin-up, let me check ......

Edit :

Not.... it is a Greg Hildebrandt pin-up.

Look here :

http://www.rbeditions.com/

[2019]

no i am not able to draw well as that....
But i think you wish you could, right?

Me've been modeling now for years a cgi pin-up girl, and even today after so much practise i can't do it so well. :x

How are you're drawing skills?

She is a so strict "political marshall", when i do some thing wrong she tie me at bed..... ROTFL
:rotfl:
Yes thats a great reason to do things wrong.
I would do everything wrong. :rotfl:

Not.... it is a Greg Hildebrandt pin-up.

Look here :

http://www.rbeditions.com/
Thanks for the link, i kinda like this kind of art, and i hope someday to finish my 3d beauty to make some hot renders with.

This site i sa great inspiration source, fine work there.

[Deamon]

[quote=Redwine]I want an ingame working Whiz Wheel....

You will get it :)

:up: I am very sad and sorry you was not part of the SH3 Dev Team :rotfl: :up:

But i need to clarifie what i mean. The TDC back then was consisted of slide rulers. There was also a slide ruler range finder for the peri. That's what you can expect for sure. About any other slide rulers, i have to see first what have been available at that time on board. But generaly what ever there was it is supposed to be in IUF too(as long as i can research it). Else we shall see what might be very usefull and add it maybe.

Sadly not, i have not more SH2 installed.
Basically it is a set of 3 big concentric wheels with a cursor, all four movables by the mouse.

How did you made them operable within SHII ? Are you a coder ?

If you can add a Whiz Wheel and a Range Slider calculator ruler it will be wonderful !!! :up:

Yes an authentic range finder slide ruler and other imilar systems will be available, as mentioned above.

I have both downloaded from some place time ago, and plus i made one as mod to works inside SH2.

If you want them all i have or made is your to be used at your pleasure.

Yes i would be very interested in them.

My Mod : (I modify the wheel to works fine in meters and yards)

http://rapidshare.de/files/12374973/SH2_Ingame_Whiz_Wheel_Mod_V1.0.zip.html

Thanks.

Look at my signature, the link Manual TDC "HTDC Tutorial", it is the use of another of my mods, the Hardcore TDC Mod, where you can see how to make all calculations with no TDC, and even with no Whiz Wheel, completely manual mode.

http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm

Follow the links on the second page. (you have a some small page thumbnails at botom for quick navigation)
If you have this tutorial i can send it to you in HTML to navigate it in your Hard Drive, that site is so slow to navigate.

Cool stuff :up:

You did it all alone ? I plan to deal with it in ditail in the academy as well. So that's my kinde of stuff here.

Pack of Wheels and Calculator Rulers :

http://rapidshare.de/files/12410567/Pack.zip.html

Thanks.

I have many .pdf files if you want them.

I WANT THEM :)

Just let me to know if need more as my .pdf files for be used in Photoshop.

I have many templates.

Send over here everything.

PD : when do you spect to release your WW1 sim ?

LOL

:hmm: ...

Dunno. I realy can't make any estimation about the first release. It depends on to much factors that will change by the time. In 5 years maybe. Maybe sooner or later(usualy later :lol: ). As i mentioned in many other threads already, i want to make a release as soon as i have tied together enough to make a virtual academy possible. Basicaly a prototype of a future release where it's possible to operate the u-boat and conduct exercises. But we are still in such an early stage that i just can't make any release estimations, i would lie when i would. I just don't want to give false promeses, i even will not promes whether there will be a release at all!

I don't want to disapoint high expectations that might arise from false promeses, so i become very carefull with promeses. We are just a few indis with a long term determination, working with very limited resources. There are only 2-3 people in our group that work realy dedicated on the project. I also took this in to account in my design and changed it to fit this requirements. So i'm going to concentrate the limited resources on the technical, tactical and operational aspects of the sim instead on fancy grafics(the grafics are still fancy though :lol: ). I hope to tie together something very interesting in a not to long time. But i'm sure that our team will grow to some more capeable guys who have long term determination, but this will take some time. When there will be any release i'm sure you will like it. I will give you some more insights soon.

For me it's a life task. I dedicated my life to it. I will never give it up and i have no time table and no release date that i work towards. I just want that the people understand that it will take a very long time and stop asking me when the release will be ;)

You can maybe start to ask me that when you see alot of new ingame screenshots and movies on my site(instead of just renderings). But this won't happen soon. The current plan is to make a release when it arrives at V0.5.

The upside of all of it is that by the time of a release the average hardware will be powerfull enought to render the ditail heavy u-boat and scenes.

EDIT: And hey Redwine you finaly found us in the subsim.com dungeon :)

Deamon

[Redwine]

But i need to clarifie what i mean. The TDC back then was consisted of slide rulers. There was also a slide ruler range finder for the peri. That's what you can expect for sure. About any other slide rulers, i have to see first what have been available at that time on board. But generaly what ever there was it is supposed to be in IUF too(as long as i can research it). Else we shall see what might be very usefull and add it maybe.

Basically you need a slider ruler to take ranges using a good periscope reticle.

And a Whiz Wheel to solve the Cosin Theoreme to have target speed, and to solve the 3 bearing Theoreme to have target AOB.

3 Bearing Theoreme can be solved by a simple slider ruller too, it is on the link above.

The last may be done by maths........ the user needs some simple math skill to solve the “shooting triangle”.

Remember some German WW1 was fited with Stadimeters, wich made so easy for them to take ranges.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9194/102871731kxtwudfs7rr.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=102871731kxtwudfs7rr.jpg)

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8858/102875334nqtfnpfs9it.th.jpg (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=102875334nqtfnpfs9it.jpg)




Sadly not, i have not more SH2 installed.
Basically it is a set of 3 big concentric wheels with a cursor, all four movables by the mouse.

How did you made them operable within SHII ? Are you a coder ?

Not.... sadly i have not skill on those jobs, it was on open files in the game, and SH2 was very easy to be modded, it is so better sim than SH3.




If you can add a Whiz Wheel and a Range Slider calculator ruler it will be wonderful !!! :up:

Yes an authentic range finder slide ruler and other imilar systems will be available, as mentioned above.

A stadimeter sound wonderful, look at the pictures above..

Plus remember the periscopes not only have the bearing chart we see into the view finder, they had a big giant one outside it, over the viewfinder, some ones had 2 feet diameter, wich is near 2 meters long.

There you was able to read bearing so precise, plus they had a second strip as a nonio or Vernier stile, then, even when they had minimun marks of 1 degree, you was able to read 1/10 of degrees thanks to the Vernier second scale.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7948/periscopebearingcharts2sa.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopebearingcharts2sa.jpg)




Look at my signature, the link Manual TDC "HTDC Tutorial", it is the use of another of my mods, the Hardcore TDC Mod, where you can see how to make all calculations with no TDC, and even with no Whiz Wheel, completely manual mode.

http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm

Follow the links on the second page. (you have a some small page thumbnails at botom for quick navigation)
If you have this tutorial i can send it to you in HTML to navigate it in your Hard Drive, that site is so slow to navigate.

Cool stuff :up:

You did it all alone ? I plan to deal with it in ditail in the academy as well. So that's my kinde of stuff here.

That is the tutorial for the Mod i made, you can see the mod cahges into “Before After” section in that tutorial.

The mod introduce a precice periscope capable to read 1/10 of bearing degrees.

A precision reticle, an attack periscope and a TDC with big instruments instead the original small and offset instruments.

The mod contains a complete guide to manual shooting in two modes, real, where you fond some data and input it into the TDC, and WW1, where your TDC is broken and you must to do all as in WW1.

Plus there is a theoretical analisys but it is in spanish, to complex to do it in english for me, and some kinds of complete exercise.




I have many .pdf files if you want them.

I WANT THEM :)



I have many templates.

Send over here everything.

Have here the Hardcore TDC Mod Tutorial for manaul shooting....... to be able to surf it on your hard drive .

It can be used as a tutorial for a WW1 shooting too, you have there all you need to know to be able to manual shooting a torp.


http://rapidshare.de/files/12776933/Tutorials_for_HTDC_Mod_V7.0.zip.html

[Deamon]

Basically you need a slider ruler to take ranges using a good periscope reticle.

Yes i know.

And a Whiz Wheel to solve the Cosin Theoreme to have target speed,

The speed can be solved with Whiz Wheels ? I thought you will have to take two range measures at different times and then figure out on the map what the speed is. Or maybe run with the target. But i also developed my own method involving a stopwatch

The last may be done by maths........ the user needs some simple math skill to solve the “shooting triangle”.

You have covered it as well in your tut right ?

Remember some German WW1 was fited with Stadimeters, wich made so easy for them to take ranges.

Right.

Not.... sadly i have not skill on those jobs, it was on open files in the game, and SH2 was very easy to be modded, it is so better sim than SH3.

Amazing. What kinde of feature allowed to make working Whiz Wheels in the captains quarter ?

Was it possible to add Whiz Wheel in any station like on the TDC station ?

I guess yes, since the TDC is finaly just an overlay ?

A stadimeter sound wonderful, look at the pictures above..

Yes stadimeter. Don't worry, i actualy have this book ;)

Plus remember the periscopes not only have the bearing chart we see into the view finder, they had a big giant one outside it,

Called "Peilkranz". Actualy that was the usual solution for taking bearings. There was no bearing chart in the periscope view back then! There were trials with integrated compas based bearing charts in the top of the peri but it didn't satisfy. So they sticked to the "Peilkranz".

There you was able to read bearing so precise, plus they had a second strip as a nonio or Vernier stile, then, even when they had minimun marks of 1 degree, you was able to read 1/10 of degrees thanks to the Vernier second scale.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7948/periscopebearingcharts2sa.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopebearingcharts2sa.jpg)


Very interesting. From which sub are this strips ?


The mod introduce a precice periscope capable to read 1/10 of bearing degrees.

A precision reticle, an attack periscope and a TDC with big instruments instead the original small and offset instruments.

Have you something similar for SHIII ?

Plus there is a theoretical analisys but it is in spanish, to complex to do it in english for me, and some kinds of complete exercise.

That's a pitty. I always look for that kinde of stuff.

Have here the Hardcore TDC Mod Tutorial for manaul shooting....... to be able to surf it on your hard drive .

It can be used as a tutorial for a WW1 shooting too, you have there all you need to know to be able to manual shooting a torp.


http://rapidshare.de/files/12776933/Tutorials_for_HTDC_Mod_V7.0.zip.html

Great thanks.

Deamon

[Redwine]

Basically you need a slider ruler to take ranges using a good periscope reticle.

Yes i know.

You have one template in the links above. plus there are another template for a 3bearing solver ruler.



And a Whiz Wheel to solve the Cosin Theoreme to have target speed,

The speed can be solved with Whiz Wheels ? I thought you will have to take two range measures at different times and then figure out on the map what the speed is. Or maybe run with the target. But i also developed my own method involving a stopwatch

Yes, one of the functions of the Whiz Wheel is to be a Cosin Theoreme solver.
Knowing two sides and the angle between them of a triangle, you can know the remain side of the triangle.
Plus you can found the speed in knots.
You have the user instructions into the link above.



The last may be done by maths........ the user needs some simple math skill to solve the “shooting triangle”.

You have covered it as well in your tut right ?

Yes, it is extensivelly developed in the tutorials, the matter is, in this part there are many diferent ways to solve the shooting triangle. You can take many diferent ways.
You need some basic skills on maths, trigonometry to be speciphic.



Remember some German WW1 was fited with Stadimeters, wich made so easy for them to take ranges.

Right.

Sadly not modeled at any sub sim. I attemp to introduce it into SH2, but sadly the run of the viw pitch up/dow remains steady, about 80 degrees up, 20 down, was encoded, this means to have a precise strip was needed a giant strip wich no video card is capable to manage, today or in 100 years more.



Not.... sadly i have not skill on those jobs, it was on open files in the game, and SH2 was very easy to be modded, it is so better sim than SH3.

Amazing. What kinde of feature allowed to make working Whiz Wheels in the captains quarter ?

Was it possible to add Whiz Wheel in any station like on the TDC station ?

I guess yes, since the TDC is finaly just an overlay ?

Yes, but the problem was there was not place to put it in another place, the only stupid screen with lot of free space was that......



A stadimeter sound wonderful, look at the pictures above..

Yes stadimeter. Don't worry, i actualy have this book ;)

Whow....! incredible, seems to be a wonderful book as font of information.




Plus remember the periscopes not only have the bearing chart we see into the view finder, they had a big giant one outside it,

Called "Peilkranz". Actualy that was the usual solution for taking bearings. There was no bearing chart in the periscope view back then! There were trials with integrated compas based bearing charts in the top of the peri but it didn't satisfy. So they sticked to the "Peilkranz".

I wasnt in know of its name, thanks....



There you was able to read bearing so precise, plus they had a second strip as a nonio or Vernier stile, then, even when they had minimun marks of 1 degree, you was able to read 1/10 of degrees thanks to the Vernier second scale.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7948/periscopebearingcharts2sa.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopebearingcharts2sa.jpg)


Very interesting. From which sub are this strips ?

I cant remember, may be a support frm some people when i claim it for SH3 prior its release.
I attempt to have all this features in SH3, but sadly they made a game, not a sim.




The mod introduce a precice periscope capable to read 1/10 of bearing degrees.

A precision reticle, an attack periscope and a TDC with big instruments instead the original small and offset instruments.

Have you something similar for SHIII ?


Yes, i made it foe SH2, and when SH3 was released, i attempt to made the same for it,
I made an attack periscope with a giant bearing strip, with minimun divisions in 1 by 1 degrees, and another version with minimun divisions 1/2 by 1/2 degrees.
Plus i add a Vernier second scale to be able to read 1/10 of degrees into the periscope bearing chart.

Look here...... the giant periscope strip, with 1 by 1 divisions instead the original 5 by 5, and the second Vernier style strip under it in red colour.

If you looks well, you can read...... 192.5 degrees

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2134/vernier4jw.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vernier4jw.jpg)


But finally i quit...... because the TDC instruments are off set and it was encoded, or almost i cant found where to fix it.

My intemption was to enlarge those "coin" size instruments, where you cant input any thing well, but i found the bearing instrument is completelly off set,

If you have SH3 installed, you will note it is imposible to adjust bearing zero or 180.

You will have 1/2 degree error at zero bearing (bow), and 1 1/2 degree error at stern.

When i was unable to solve this ...i quit and forget SH3 for manual shooting.

When i want to practice manual shooting i take SH2, wich is a so better sim than SH3.

In example, in SH2 you have a dozen and half of diferent depth charges modelled, in SH3 all depth charges are all the same, is only one modelled, a samall plane launch the same depth charge, as a DD or DE.
Depth charge is only one, with only one explosive power for all , british, germans , americans ......

You have not modelled thermal layers !!! :damn:

A subsim with no thermal layer modelled is how to such a tit with brasier........ :damn:

It can be done for coders or programes, just needs to modelated two sea surface one over the other.


But in last days a mod to reworks the TDc was out, very good job, it was released by FLB

http://subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46799&start=25

But sadly he was not able to fix the TDC Bearing instrument neither.




Plus there is a theoretical analisys but it is in spanish, to complex to do it in english for me, and some kinds of complete exercise.

That's a pitty. I always look for that kinde of stuff.

I cant found what is "pitty".... :P . you can use a traslator to read it. Was a challenge fro me to do it and talk about maths in english ...sorry.

Any way, to practic effect, there is lot of it in dual English and spanish explaining all the manual shooting.



Have here the Hardcore TDC Mod Tutorial for manaul shooting....... to be able to surf it on your hard drive .

It can be used as a tutorial for a WW1 shooting too, you have there all you need to know to be able to manual shooting a torp.


http://rapidshare.de/files/12776933/Tutorials_for_HTDC_Mod_V7.0.zip.html

Great thanks.

Deamon

You have lot of sections, many of them in english, especially all related to the manual shooting and its calculations.

The only things you have in spanish only, is the filling theoretical analisys, where you have analized many of the torpedo run errors, and how to fix them, manay of this fix was done by the Kapitans by “pnemothechnic rules” i dont know how to say in english, may be by “practic rules”...... sorry my bad english.

[Bertgang]

No wishes to add, this project is going as my best dream, out of a release date not so far...

Well, maybe I'd like some single mission and a mission editor too, just to be able to make a raid when the time is short.

[Sulikate]

she looks so sweeeeeeeet :arrgh!:
Imagine your self on a lonely uboat with her as compagnion :rotfl:

Deamon i think we strongly ned to implement this feature in IUF... let it be just a 18+ sim. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

app. for my perverted obsesion. :rock:

Btw, Sulikate did you have received those files of the holland sub?

well, there is nothing in my e-mail... just confirming (brunoandradeavellarAhotmail.com)

A=@

[Deamon]

You have the user instructions into the link above.

Great, then all the questions will be answered there. Sorry for the stupid questions, i had no time to study through it in ditail, i just skipped through it. Usualy i start to deal with a subject in depth when i start to think of how to implement it. I would need a few years to go through all the u-boat stuff that i have gathered here. But i'm bussy with developement and worked so fare only trough a small part of it. I have to be very selective with my studies.

Yes, it is extensivelly developed in the tutorials, the matter is, in this part there are many diferent ways to solve the shooting triangle. You can take many diferent ways.
You need some basic skills on maths, trigonometry to be speciphic.

Good job btw. could have been from me. Looks like the IUF curriculum will become huge.


Sadly not modeled at any sub sim. I attemp to introduce it into SH2, but sadly the run of the viw pitch up/dow remains steady, about 80 degrees up, 20 down, was encoded, this means to have a precise strip was needed a giant strip wich no video card is capable to manage, today or in 100 years more.

I will introduce a stadimeter in to IUF. The good thing when you have your own project is that you can do what ever you want. It's all just a matter of more work.

Whow....! incredible, seems to be a wonderful book as font of information.

:D

Will tell you more about it later.

I cant remember, may be a support frm some people when i claim it for SH3 prior its release.

So you can't remember the source ?

Have you it maybe in a higher resolution ?

I attempt to have all this features in SH3, but sadly they made a game, not a sim.

Sounds like you are disappointed from SHIII

Look here...... the giant periscope strip, with 1 by 1 divisions instead the original 5 by 5, and the second Vernier style strip under it in red colour.

If you looks well, you can read...... 192.5 degrees

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2134/vernier4jw.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vernier4jw.jpg)


Great, can i download it somewhere ?

The original bearing chart made me nuts.


But finally i quit...... because the TDC instruments are off set and it was encoded, or almost i cant found where to fix it.

My intemption was to enlarge those "coin" size instruments, where you cant input any thing well, but i found the bearing instrument is completelly off set,

If you have SH3 installed, you will note it is imposible to adjust bearing zero or 180.

You will have 1/2 degree error at zero bearing (bow), and 1 1/2 degree error at stern.


I noticed that flaw. But i had a trick to still make pretty precise settings.

When i was unable to solve this ...i quit and forget SH3 for manual shooting.

When i want to practice manual shooting i take SH2, wich is a so better sim than SH3.

In the future Danger from the deep will be another option.

In example, in SH2 you have a dozen and half of diferent depth charges modelled, in SH3 all depth charges are all the same, is only one modelled, a samall plane launch the same depth charge, as a DD or DE.
Depth charge is only one, with only one explosive power for all , british, germans , americans ......

Right. But hten again SHIII have advantages over SHII. But well, it's still screwed up.

You have not modelled thermal layers !!! :damn:

A subsim with no thermal layer modelled is how to such a tit with brasier........ :damn:

Is there realy no thermal layer ?

It can be done for coders or programes, just needs to modelated two sea surface one over the other.

But there should be much more then just thermal layers. I'm developing a ditailed hydroacoustical model right now.

But in last days a mod to reworks the TDc was out, very good job, it was released by FLB

http://subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46799&start=25

But sadly he was not able to fix the TDC Bearing instrument neither.

Cool, but are you sure that the link is ok ?

I cant found what is "pitty".... :P . you can use a traslator to read it. Was a challenge fro me to do it and talk about maths in english ...sorry.

I think translators aren't that good.


You have lot of sections, many of them in english, especially all related to the manual shooting and its calculations.

The only things you have in spanish only, is the filling theoretical analisys, where you have analized many of the torpedo run errors, and how to fix them, manay of this fix was done by the Kapitans by “pnemothechnic rules” i dont know how to say in english, may be by “practic rules”...... sorry my bad english.

We maybe have to try to fix the translation later it later. I have a spanish guy in my team.

Deamon

[Redwine]

You have the user instructions into the link above.

Sorry for the stupid questions.....

what are you talking about ? You are welcome ! :up:



Good job btw. could have been from me. Looks like the IUF curriculum will become huge.

Thanks ..... will be good to have yours in a good english for the subcomunity. :up:



I will introduce a stadimeter in to IUF. The good thing when you have your own project is that you can do what ever you want. It's all just a matter of more work.

That sounds wonderful.


I cant remember, may be a support frm some people when i claim it for SH3 prior its release.

So you can't remember the source ?

Have you it maybe in a higher resolution ?

Thats the only picture i have stored with the multiple Vernier dials at periscope strip.
I was checking but i cant found that web place stored.



I attempt to have all this features in SH3, but sadly they made a game, not a sim.

Sounds like you are disappointed from SHIII

Thats correct.


Great, can i download it somewhere ?

The original bearing chart made me nuts.

You can download it here, in the SH3 downloads section, in the page 2, under the name Precision Periscope Mod


http://www.24flotilla.com/html/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=1&min=10&orderby=titleA&show=10

Direct link :

http://www.24flotilla.com/Descargas/sh3/ppmod_v1.0.zip

Let me to know if you was able to download it there, if not i upload it at RapidShare




I noticed that flaw. But i had a trick to still make pretty precise settings.

Please ...release a fix for it.



When i was unable to solve this ...i quit and forget SH3 for manual shooting.

When i want to practice manual shooting i take SH2, wich is a so better sim than SH3.



In the future Danger from the deep will be another option.

Whats that ? :huh:



Right. But hten again SHIII have advantages over SHII. But well, it's still screwed up.

Yes i know, it is so impresive the interior 3D and graphical amazing, but has a lack of many important things, thermal layers, a quick mision editor, all the world is into a bubble of 8km :damn: i cant believe, I remember to spot the mast and smoke of japanese ships beyond the horizon in SH1 with more than 10 years back in technology, no whiz wheel, it is unexcusable, if me who i am a stupid afitioned was able to do it .... why they not ? No diferent behaviour for DEs and DDs, it was in SH1 !
Did you take a look into sensors beam angles...... after do it i can uderstand why DDs have a underkeel water camera :rotfl: or a sailor with his head underwater looking for me..... :rotfl: I made a mod for it too :88)

Well can stay here a week ........ stop here.

We can only work hard to have a decent game.



You have not modelled thermal layers !!! :damn:

A subsim with no thermal layer modelled is how to such a tit with brasier........ :damn:

Is there realy no thermal layer ?

Nop.... :down: they are not modelled into a subsim.
Prior game release, we claim for it many times, they says the WW2 german sub dont have know about thermal layers :damn: :88)
Then we add parts of the Kriegsmarine U-Boat Commanders HandBook, where are speciphic orders to take frecuently water samples to determine the thermal layer position..... but no way, the Dev Team or the producer was deaf :dead:

German U-Boats in WW2 had a water trap to take external water every few meters when dive or surface, then they measre water density and temperature and determine the aproximate thermal layer position.

I made atrick for it, not a thermal layer modelation, but tweaking the sensors angles you obtain a some kind of protection against active pings when depth.



It can be done for coders or programes, just needs to modelated two sea surface one over the other.

But there should be much more then just thermal layers. I'm developing a ditailed hydroacoustical model right now.

You are done that in a WW1 sim ? You will be awared with the honour medal to be a pionner in sub simulation !! :-j

I know a second ocean surface sound a dummy simple solution, the matter is it is better to have nothing, i just be happy to have that, of course a better simulation of thermal layers, with many plates at many depths is welcome. :up:




Cool, but are you sure that the link is ok ?

yes i am talking about this picture.....

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/5615/tdc5lt.jpg




I think translators aren't that good.

yes...i know.




We maybe have to try to fix the translation later it later. I have a spanish guy in my team.

Deamon

All you found useful of my job is yours...... :up:

[Deamon]

Thats correct.


About what most ?

You can download it here, in the SH3 downloads section, in the page 2, under the name Precision Periscope Mod

Thanks.

Let me to know if you was able to download it there, if not i upload it at RapidShare

I have it.

I noticed that flaw. But i had a trick to still make pretty precise settings.

Please ...release a fix for it.

Lol, it's not a fix. Just a trick of how to move the mouse to get precise settings.


In the future Danger from the deep will be another option.

Whats that ? :huh:

You don't know it ?

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=20310&start=0

We can only work hard to have a decent game.

My dissadisfaction with the games was my strongest motivation to make own games. You just won't get what you want if you not doing it yourself.


Nop.... :down: they are not modelled into a subsim.

Are you sure ?

Someone told me the oposit. I noticed when i dive very deep i can shake of the DD's pretty easy.

Prior game release, we claim for it many times, they says the WW2 german sub dont have know about thermal layers :damn: :88)

Lol, even if they wouldn't know about it. It still would work when they dive below it.

That is a stupid argument, if it was that way.

Then we add parts of the Kriegsmarine U-Boat Commanders HandBook, where are speciphic orders to take frecuently water samples to determine the thermal layer position..... but no way, the Dev Team or the producer was deaf :dead:

I can't remember to have seen such a statement in my Comanders Handbook. Which edition do you have ?

German U-Boats in WW2 had a water trap to take external water every few meters when dive or surface, then they measre water density and temperature and determine the aproximate thermal layer position.

Didn't knew it. Have you sources ?

I made a trick for it, not a thermal layer modelation, but tweaking the sensors angles you obtain a some kind of protection against active pings when depth.

As stated above when i dive very deep, they loose me anyway. But if it's not modeled then i would leave it alone. Then it just sucks. Going away and make my own decent sim.

You are done that in a WW1 sim ?

Not done but doing. I'm long not done. In my design there are also other elements that interact with the hydroacoustical functions. The model right now is still basic. Right now i implement all the propagation related functions. After that i will deal with the different SSP's and after that i want to make them interact with the climate zone, weather and diurdinal influances. So that the SSP changes dynamicaly so that you have an always changing hydroacoustical situation with very variable detection ranges and features including chemical and biological influances. But at this stage some aspects become very complicated and tricky to implement.

You will be awared with the honour medal to be a pionner in sub simulation !! :-j

LAMO. Actualy hydroacoustics + oceanography is my most favourite topic. I'm very intrigued by the tactical posibilities that arise from it. I breeded the design for my sonar engine for a long time now.

I know a second ocean surface sound a dummy simple solution, the matter is it is better to have nothing, i just be happy to have that, of course a better simulation of thermal layers, with many plates at many depths is welcome. :up:

Luckily i don't have to deal with radars and stuff. I can focus on the acoustical sensors. But unfortunately the hydrophone systems throughout the war lacked important features like taking bearings, for example. There also was no directioning feature. The hydrophones were of panorama type. The only thing that was possible is to determine whether the contact was on the port or starboard side. If you wanted the direction you had to turn the whole boat towards the target to get a bearing. But on the earlier boats the hydrophonsystem suffered to much from ownship noise and the boat had to be stoped in order to have a good listen. Only at the end of the war new systems were developed that allowed to take bearings without turning the boat. The new quiting measures also allowed to listen without shutting off all engines and even filters were developed that filtered out some of the ownship noise. Cool stuff.

Anyway in hydroacoustical regards you can expect something fancy.


Cool, but are you sure that the link is ok ?

yes i am talking about this picture.....

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/5615/tdc5lt.jpg

Ok, i see.

All you found useful of my job is yours...... :up:

A big thanks. I think i can use planty of it.

Deamon

[Redwine]

Lol, it's not a fix. Just a trick of how to move the mouse to get precise settings.

Can you make a guide for this trick ?



You don't know it ?

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=20310&start=0


Thanks.... i will see.



Nop.... :down: they are not modelled into a subsim.

Are you sure ?

Someone told me the oposit. I noticed when i dive very deep i can shake of the DD's pretty easy.

That is a trick, not really a thermal layer protection.
Sensors had a floor, when you go deeper than that flor you are literally undetectable.
Many people made it in diferent ways, some ones, put a floor for both pasive and active, somo others only for one of them, some others forget the trick and asume reality, there is no thermal layer protection modelled.

The matter is, this trick make you invisible, but a thermal layer not, it deflects part of the sound not all.
In example the DD must to receive a percent of your sound or ping echo. The trick make you completelly undetectable.
For this some ones made the trick only in one sensor, pasive or active and not in both.
Rally i cant decide how is the best way to adjust it yet.....




Lol, even if they wouldn't know about it. It still would work when they dive below it.

That is a stupid argument, if it was that way.

Not stupid, they save lot of job, but that is not all, they brings a WW2 Kaptain Oersten who say they dont know about it.

But the speciphic orders to do it was found in the U-Boat Commanders Handbook.

I feel respect and consideration for that warrior, but the manual is the manual....... why then he say they disregard about thermal layers ?


The conclusion we arrive in that discusion was, the method was very anoying, and slow, they need to take an exterior water sample every 10 meters, mesure it temperature and density and made a log........ sure it was imposble in a crash dive after an attack, but sure was posible when they was surfacing the boat, then they take calm and easy the water samples, and have an aproximate idea of where is the thermal layer in the zone, in case of a posible attack few hours later........and may be they when was under attacK they go as deep as they can do...... if the thermal layer was above ....... better, if not....... bad luck :dead:
Plus a experienced hydrophonist can determine it by the Dds noise reduction.



I can't remember to have seen such a statement in my Comanders Handbook. Which edition do you have ?

I have a spanish traslation, was there.....
But the guy who add this info take it from a german or english version if i dont remember bad.



Didn't knew it. Have you sources ?

The U-Boat Commanders Handbook, it is there.
It, speciphically orders to take water samples to measure temperature and density, to determine the thermal layer position, plus recommend to hear the DDs noise at hydrophones, if you sense an abrupt reduction in its noise, it means you was gone under the thermal layer.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
["B. Qué Hacer en Caso de Persecución con ASDIC.
254.)
Se llama la atención sobre los comentarios concernientes al sistema de búsqueda antisubmarina: Sección I, B, III, .55) a .64)

Medidas a tomar contra el sistema de búsqueda antisubmarina:

a) Muestre el perfil estrecho (véase .59) para ofrecer la mínima superficie al eco.

b) Sumérjase profundo, y haga mediciones constantes de la densidad y temperatura del agua, para calcular que estrato de agua proporciona protección contra el ASDIC – una condición caracterizada por el debilitamiento de los impulsos de eco (véase .56 a y b). La recepción más débil de estos impulsos en el hidrófono del submarino, significa el debilitamiento y por tanto la recepción más imprecisa del retorno del eco en los aparatos de detección del enemigo."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Some body in another forum affirm it is a scene in the extended version of Das Boot, where a crew is taking a watwer sample, but i have not this version i cant confirm.



Luckily i don't have to deal with radars and stuff. I can focus on the acoustical sensors. But unfortunately the hydrophone systems throughout the war lacked important features like taking bearings, for example. There also was no directioning feature. The hydrophones were of panorama type. The only thing that was possible is to determine whether the contact was on the port or starboard side. If you wanted the direction you had to turn the whole boat towards the target to get a bearing. But on the earlier boats the hydrophonsystem suffered to much from ownship noise and the boat had to be stoped in order to have a good listen. Only at the end of the war new systems were developed that allowed to take bearings without turning the boat. The new quiting measures also allowed to listen without shutting off all engines and even filters were developed that filtered out some of the ownship noise. Cool stuff.

Anyway in hydroacoustical regards you can expect something fancy.


Very interesting and nice..... :up: what a golden age ! :sunny:

:up:

[Deamon]

Can you make a guide for this trick ?

Well, not much to tell. When you for example want to set the angle to 20° then move the index as close as possible to it lets say 19,5 and then to make fine adjustments move the mouse slowly down(or up). Make sure you click on the index at the top bounder of it. That way i can set the angles almost 100% correct. But don't remember now how well this works at 0 or 180° but you can give it a try. It's a bit cumbersome but works fin for me.

Thanks.... i will see.

This project is potentialy very hot, since it seems to be under heavy developement with good researches behinde it.

That is a trick, not really a thermal layer protection.
Sensors had a floor, when you go deeper than that flor you are literally undetectable.
Many people made it in diferent ways, some ones, put a floor for both pasive and active, somo others only for one of them, some others forget the trick and asume reality, there is no thermal layer protection modelled.

Thanks for the info.

The matter is, this trick make you invisible, but a thermal layer not, it deflects part of the sound not all.

Of course depends on the thermal layer and what is in it. In the thermal layer you can finde a plancton layer for example. This can be dense. The plancton layer absords a big part of the light and cause a sharp decrease in temperature thus in density and split the water in to two different mediums. This sharp change in density is like a wall that the sound have to penetrate and loose energy by doing so resp. part of it or all of it is being reflected back. It also depends then on the angle of impact how much sound come through. The penetration also changes the angle of the impecting sound when it exit the layer on the other side. Of course the plancton layer cause a loos too. It also reflects part of the sound and absorbs part of it by it's referberation effect. So far i haven't seen a sim that simulates the fauna of the sea and it's interaction with hydroacoustics and stuff.

There are also chemical aspects that are usualy not taken into account but rather easy to implement. In the sea there are different chemical ellements. One of it remains liquid as long the temperature is not to high. When it gets to high(summer) this chemical ellement transforms in to a gas, causing a big microbubble cloud in the sea. This cause a referberation loss and reduces the detection range up to 50% !!!

So in summer your detection range will be only half as far as in winter !!! And fairly easy to implement. Requires researches though. There are of course always changes induced to the SSP, by weather, time of day, seasons and stuff. This is all very dynamic and very fascinating to me.

You surely know that the changing density of the water als changes the original angle of propagation of a sound wave but usual only the vertical deflection is being pointed out. But the deflection also applys horizontaly, causing bearing errors :)

Near a river mouth for example, where fresh water flows in to the salty sea. Such an area can wrack havoc the propagation and tetection. Thermal layers can be kinda vertical as well.

Anyway i want to include this and other aspects in to my sonar engine. That's why i'm going to simulate the corresponding environment aspects. There will be no artificial detection limits for the sensors in IUF. The detection ranges will be fully dynamical.

In such regards the todays sims all suck. I'm going to invest significan resources in to such aspects. But i also won't make any promeses. This subject is very complicated and dynamical. Curtain things are easy to implement, others tricky as hell. I have developed different approaches and each have its advantages and disadvantages, makes curtain things possible and others not. Finaly it will depend on the required computing power and possible optimizations which approach i will choose in the first place for the final sim.

Not stupid, they save lot of job, but that is not all, they brings a WW2 Kaptain Oersten who say they dont know about it.

I think the reality won't take care of who say what. It's there and works. No matter if the u-boat captain knows about it or not. So to leave out layers just becose the Captain say they didn't knew about it or didn't take care, sound to me stupid.

But the speciphic orders to do it was found in the U-Boat Commanders Handbook.

Ok checked my commander handbook again and found a statement where it's suggested during the deep dive to check the waterdensity and temperature currently to finde the waterlayer that protects from detection and also by listening for a significant reduction of the enemys ping.

But it doesn't mention explecitely the word thermal layer.

I feel respect and consideration for that warrior, but the manual is the manual....... why then he say they disregard about thermal layers ?

Comanders were an own breed. Some disregarded radio detection too. :lol:



Very interesting and nice..... :up: what a golden age ! :sunny:

:up:

You will have to be very patient for it :lol:

Deamon

[Redwine]

Not stupid, they save lot of job, but that is not all, they brings a WW2 Kaptain Oersten who say they dont know about it.

I think the reality won't take care of who say what. It's there and works. No matter if the u-boat captain knows about it or not. So to leave out layers just becose the Captain say they didn't knew about it or didn't take care, sound to me stupid.

Yes...i agree with you, my afirmation was an irony, may be my bad english i was not able to transmit you my thinks, i agree with you it is stupid, but with this stupidity ...... they avoid to make lot of job.....




But the speciphic orders to do it was found in the U-Boat Commanders Handbook.

Ok checked my commander handbook again and found a statement where it's suggested during the deep dive to check the waterdensity and temperature currently to finde the waterlayer that protects from detection and also by listening for a significant reduction of the enemys ping.

But it doesn't mention explecitely the word thermal layer.

Yes they not call them thermal layes, may be it is a modern therminology, they call them "stratum".

The matter is, they know the effect of protection given by "stratums" of water with diferent themperature and density, and how it make interference in the sound propagation at thos stratus boundaries, when the sound attempt tp pass from one stratus to another stratus, and know it give some protection to the sub, then they wrote speciphic ordres to take water samples to measure water themperature and density to determine those startums position.

Here the text in english :


"Section IV

B. What to do in Case of Pursuit by ASDIC.

254.) Attention is called to the general remarks about anti-submarine position finding: Section I, B, III, Nos. 55 to 64.

Measures to be taken against anti-submarine position finding:

a) Show the narrow outline (see No. 59) in order to offer the minimum
echo sounding surface.

b) Go low down, and during the dive carry out consecutive measurements
of the density and temperature of the water, with a view to ascertaining
which stratum of water affords protection against the enemy ASDIC operations
--- a condition characterized by the weakening of the echo impulses
(see No. 56, a and b). The weaker the reception of the echo impulses
in the hydrophone of the submarine, the weaker, and therefore the more
inaccurate, the echo returning to the enemy’s submarine-detecting
gear."


With this info there are no scuses, to modelate a water trap and a crew making a log of water themperature and density......

Plus agree with you, if they know or not know is no scuse to not modelated the thermal layers or diferent desnsity and themperarure stratus, they was there disregarding the captain know or not about them !!



I feel respect and consideration for that warrior, but the manual is the manual....... why then he say they disregard about thermal layers ?

Comanders were an own breed. Some disregarded radio detection too. :lol:

I know i works under captain command........ at first are them, low ...very low down there is God..... :rotfl:




Very interesting and nice..... :up: what a golden age ! :sunny:

:up:

You will have to be very patient for it :lol:

Deamon

Will be wonderful to have the real behaviour of that golden age..... in example, when detect a ship, you approach, shot an advertence deck gun shot, the ship stops..... then you can have a list of action, send a abandom message, send a inspection group for neutral ships.

When crew abandon the ship, you can click the menu and send a sclutter group, to set some sclutter boms.

Or take hands on it with the deck gun.

If the ship dont stops, or if it send a position radio mesage, you was free to torp it or taka hands on it with the deck gun.

Q-ships...... i remember WW1 Kaptain Spiess tells some day he found a stupid small ship, it looks inofensive, when he approach it, the small ship start up to shoot the sub with a small 20mm gun, he call the gun "tirabalas" a despective name, may be in english " bullet launcher", but when he was near the samll ship uncover his two 155mm guns and opens fire..... :rotfl: , he must to emergency dive, he tells the samll ship was using its 20mm "tirabalas" as a range finder for its big guns....... they was always waiting for a trap..... :up:

I remember in some moment he comment he was happy due to the replacement of your artillery Telemeter by one more big and precise.
No subsim had intriduced a telemeter use yet.


Thanks for the trick, it looks to dont works fro me, the inner rotative dial, it wich shows "tens" never stops in correct place.

Thanks for the thermal layers info i will store your info and comments.

:up:

[Deamon]

Yes...i agree with you, my afirmation was an irony, may be my bad english i was not able to transmit you my thinks, i agree with you it is stupid, but with this stupidity ...... they avoid to make lot of job.....

They also could have avoided to make lot of job by leaving out the radar :88)

I know i works under captain command........ at first are them, low ...very low down there is God..... :rotfl:

Lol what ? :lol:


Will be wonderful to have the real behaviour of that golden age..... in example, when detect a ship, you approach, shot an advertence deck gun shot, the ship stops..... then you can have a list of action, send a abandom message, send a inspection group for neutral ships.

When crew abandon the ship, you can click the menu and send a sclutter group, to set some sclutter boms.

Or take hands on it with the deck gun.

If the ship dont stops, or if it send a position radio mesage, you was free to torp it or taka hands on it with the deck gun.

Yes, thats the plan.

Q-ships...... i remember WW1 Kaptain Spiess tells some day he found a stupid small ship, it looks inofensive, when he approach it, the small ship start up to shoot the sub with a small 20mm gun, he call the gun "tirabalas" a despective name, may be in english " bullet launcher", but when he was near the samll ship uncover his two 155mm guns and opens fire..... :rotfl: , he must to emergency dive, he tells the samll ship was using its 20mm "tirabalas" as a range finder for its big guns....... they was always waiting for a trap..... :up:

Thanks. Interesting peice of information. If you have more to tell from that book, i would be interested.

I remember in some moment he comment he was happy due to the replacement of your artillery Telemeter by one more big and precise.
No subsim had intriduced a telemeter use yet.

Telemeter ?

Thanks for the trick, it looks to dont works fro me, the inner rotative dial, it wich shows "tens" never stops in correct place.

Well, works for me. But it's tedious to put the dial at the exact correct spot but it works. But well at least you can set this dial more precise then befor.

Thanks for the thermal layers info i will store your info and comments.

:up:

That were just a few examples.

When i'm done with the full documentation i would offer it to you.

In the mean time when you are interested in this subject i would suggest you this read here:

http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/acoustics/tutorial/tutorial.html
http://www.beyonddiscovery.org/content/view.article.asp?a=219
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/acoustics.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/uw_acous/uw_acous.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/SNR_PROP/snr_prop.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/asw_sys/asw_sys.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part08.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part09.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/season.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/tass.htm
http://www.fas.org/spp/eprint/snf0322.htm
http://www.fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03221.htm
www.npmoc.navy.mil/KBay/shallowacoustics.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/deep.htm

LOL

Deamon

[Redwine]

Yes...i agree with you, my afirmation was an irony, may be my bad english i was not able to transmit you my thinks, i agree with you it is stupid, but with this stupidity ...... they avoid to make lot of job.....

They also could have avoided to make lot of job by leaving out the radar :88)

Well, they was near ;) , i use radar in SH3, but many people think it is near to useless in SH3.

In example it is mirrowed, in example if you have a contac at 030 it is really at 330.

There is a red/green dial scale 180 left/180 right to attempt to fix it, but you need to use high resolution textures to be able to read it.



Will be wonderful to have the real behaviour of that golden age..... in example, when detect a ship, you approach, shot an advertence deck gun shot, the ship stops..... then you can have a list of action, send a abandom message, send a inspection group for neutral ships.

When crew abandon the ship, you can click the menu and send a sclutter group, to set some sclutter boms.

Or take hands on it with the deck gun.

If the ship dont stops, or if it send a position radio mesage, you was free to torp it or taka hands on it with the deck gun.

Yes, thats the plan.

Just wonderful.....



I remember in some moment he comment he was happy due to the replacement of your artillery Telemeter by one more big and precise.
No subsim had intriduced a telemeter use yet.

Telemeter ?

If i not remember bad....yes, he was happy to have a new biggest one, i dont remember if due to its replacement, or because he was reasigned from the U-9 to U-19 wich fix a biggest one, with more precision to be able to shoot from larger ranges.



Many thank for thermal layers information. :up:

[Deamon]

In example it is mirrowed, in example if you have a contac at 030 it is really at 330.

There is a red/green dial scale 180 left/180 right to attempt to fix it, but you need to use high resolution textures to be able to read it.

:doh:


Will be wonderful to have the real behaviour of that golden age..... in example, when detect a ship, you approach, shot an advertence deck gun shot, the ship stops..... then you can have a list of action, send a abandom message, send a inspection group for neutral ships.

When crew abandon the ship, you can click the menu and send a sclutter group, to set some sclutter boms.

Or take hands on it with the deck gun.

Expect a very flexible game play. With even the possibilitie to capture the ship and bring it back home.

If the ship dont stops, or if it send a position radio mesage, you was free to torp it or taka hands on it with the deck gun.

In some situations you will be able to send an interfering signal with your radio to prevent the ship from signaling. :D


If i not remember bad....yes, he was happy to have a new biggest one, i dont remember if due to its replacement, or because he was reasigned from the U-9 to U-19 wich fix a biggest one, with more precision to be able to shoot from larger ranges.

I still don't know what you mean with Telemeter, a range finder ? Is there any image of it ?

Deamon

[Redwine]

If i not remember bad....yes, he was happy to have a new biggest one, i dont remember if due to its replacement, or because he was reasigned from the U-9 to U-19 wich fix a biggest one, with more precision to be able to shoot from larger ranges.

I still don't know what you mean with Telemeter, a range finder ? Is there any image of it ?

Deamon

No, the book have no pictures.

I not rember good, but when i read it in the past, i dont think in a Stadimeter, seems he tells about an artillery telemeters, those "T" form telemeters for cannnon shooting.


Let me check the book to found this comment. :up:

[Deamon]

No, the book have no pictures.

I not rember good, but when i read it in the past, i dont think in a Stadimeter, seems he tells about an artillery telemeters, those "T" form telemeters for cannnon shooting.

"T" form ? That would be a rangefinder. Didn't knew that it was called Telemeter. Are you realy sure ?

I'v never seen such a range finder on fleet u-boats like U and U 19. This rangefinders i see only on the bigger boats that were equiped with 155mm guns.

Let me check the book to found this comment. :up:

Would be good if you could check it out.

Deamon

[Redwine]

I bring the book in my travel, i read all the book...........

Found !!!!

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9251/telemetrou1357uq.th.jpg (http://img110.imageshack.us/my.php?image=telemetrou1357uq.jpg)

The comment was due to the Kaptain Spiess asignation as Kaptain of the U-135 submarine.

He was asigned to this sub in a mission to contain a rebelion onboard of some Kriegsmarine Warships, remember it was at 1918, the year of the Russian Revolution, may some german soldires was emulationg the Potemkim affair.

He make some comments about this sub, he tells, himself and his crew was surpised of the confort on this sub, specially the Kaptain room, wich was completely islated from the another sub sections, with a wooden "zig-zag" door, from "caoba" wood, the ceiling was covered in wood, a light green "abedul" wood.
The room had a desk and a "grandchair"......

The part is interested about the Telemeter...... i will attempt to traslate it in my bad english :

Talking about the U-135 .........

........"It was powered by 4 Diesel engines which developed a power of 4600 Hp total, and it displaced about 1800 Tons.
Its armament was constuted by 6 torpedolauncher tubes, and 1 deck gun cannon of 105mm, with high speed reload and a range of 16000 meters. It had (U-135) as a new, a 3 square meters base "Telemeter", wich one can be submerged in water, without this fact cause any damage to it." .........


As i can read, it sound as a artillery telemeter, wich was able to be fixed in external position with no need to unmount or disasembly it for submerge because it was waterproof.

Wrote by own hands of her Kpt. J. Spiess, Commander of U-9, U-19, U-52 and U-135 WW1.

"La guerra submarina...... sin restricciones"

"The submarine war...... with no restriction"

Printed by Lummen Graphic Works, 1956.

Chapter VI, pages 132 and 133 spanish edition.

:up: I found it !!! :up:

[Deamon]

The comment was due to the Kaptain Spiess asignation as Kaptain of the U-135 submarine.

He was asigned to this sub in a mission to contain a rebelion onboard of some Kriegsmarine Warships, remember it was at 1918, the year of the Russian Revolution, may some german soldires was emulationg the Potemkim affair.

Very interesting. But what ? he was supposed to contain a rebelion onboard of some Kriegsmarine Warships ?

Does that mean the rebelion wasn't onboard of U135 ? And don't you mean rebels ?

What do you mean with emulationg ?

And btw: There was no Kriegsmarine in WWI :lol: i guess you meant the imperial german navy.

He make some comments about this sub, he tells, himself and his crew was surpised of the confort on this sub, specially the Kaptain room, wich was completely islated from the another sub sections, with a wooden "zig-zag" door, from "caoba" wood, the ceiling was covered in wood, a light green "abedul" wood.
The room had a desk and a "grandchair"......

The part is interested about the Telemeter...... i will attempt to traslate it in my bad english :

Talking about the U-135 .........

........"It was powered by 4 Diesel engines which developed a power of 4600 Hp total, and it displaced about 1800 Tons.
Its armament was constuted by 6 torpedolauncher tubes, and 1 deck gun cannon of 105mm, with high speed reload and a range of 16000 meters. It had (U-135) as a new, a 3 square meters base "Telemeter", wich one can be submerged in water, without this fact cause any damage to it." .........

16000 meters !? Great stuff. But could they still hit somoething at that range ? Did he mentioned at which maximum range they engaged targets ?

As i can read, it sound as a artillery telemeter, wich was able to be fixed in external position with no need to unmount or disasembly it for submerge because it was waterproof.

Much like periscopes. This is great info. I conclude from all this that the other boats that he commanded had a telemeter too. But one that had to be mounted on the bride or somewhere else and unmounted again before dive. That explains why there are never telemeters on the plans or images of that smaller boats. But good to know that they carried them inside the sub. I haven't knew this before :up:

Wrote by own hands of her Kpt. J. Spiess, Commander of U-9, U-19, U-52 and U-135 WW1.

"La guerra submarina...... sin restricciones"

"The submarine war...... with no restriction"

Printed by Lummen Graphic Works, 1956.

Chapter VI, pages 132 and 133 spanish edition.

:up: I found it !!! :up:

I will try to finde this books somewhere. You offered me some help recently. And that is something you could help me with. Reading the book and quoting all important statements. This concerns all technical describtions, like that once that you made above. Also any describtions about procedures, own tactics and that of the enemy. Also important things about combat engagements, like from which distance they started to fire at targets, how many torpedos which target needed and how long it took for it to sink and stuff. Also all describtions about any damage and malfunctions that occured and also any flaws of the sub that he mention. Basicaly anything that is releavant for researches. Do you think you could do this for me ?

Deamon

[Redwine]

The comment was due to the Kaptain Spiess asignation as Kaptain of the U-135 submarine.

He was asigned to this sub in a mission to contain a rebelion onboard of some Kriegsmarine Warships, remember it was at 1918, the year of the Russian Revolution, may some german soldires was emulationg the Potemkim affair.

Very interesting. But what ? he was supposed to contain a rebelion onboard of some Kriegsmarine Warships ?

Does that mean the rebelion wasn't onboard of U135 ? And don't you mean rebels ?

Correct, Kpt. Spiess and his crew onboard the U-135 was send to contain a rebelion onboard many ships of the German Navy, he mentioned some of them....."Turinge", "Ostfriesland" and "Helgoland".




What do you mean with emulationg ?

Sorry about that, was 1918 the year of the Russian Revolution, it bring to my mind the rebelion, moutin .....onboard the "Potenkim".
He not emntioned the claims of the rebels.....



And btw: There was no Kriegsmarine in WWI :lol: i guess you meant the imperial german navy.

Yes... :rotfl: i know, was a mistake.



16000 meters !? Great stuff. But could they still hit somoething at that range ? Did he mentioned at which maximum range they engaged targets ?

16.000 meters he mentioned is the max range fro the 105mm gun, and it is normal for a 105 piece of artillery. It is obtained at about 46 degrees of elevation if i am not wrong by recall.
I soupose they dont shoot anything at 16.000 meters, i will take a look about if he mentioned some ranges in his attacks in his historytell..........



Much like periscopes. This is great info. I conclude from all this that the other boats that he commanded had a telemeter too.

Nop...sorry, he never mentioned it... almost in this book, i need time to read the other one.



But one that had to be mounted on the bride or somewhere else and unmounted again before dive.

Not mentioned speciphically, but it is subliminal message, if he comment about it can remain outside and submerged in water........ may be.... :hmm: only may be, there was old kinds wich needs to be unmounted and stored inside the sub, if not why the comment ?
May be i am wrong in this suposition...........
But no other comment about telemeters in this book, when he tells about ranges, never explains how they take ranges. :hmm:



That explains why there are never telemeters on the plans or images of that smaller boats. But good to know that they carried them inside the sub. I haven't knew this before :up:

Nop.... no speciphic comment about other models carried inside the sub, sorry, may be my dificoult to explain my feelings in english.

He only comment this model had a 3 square meters base, and can be submerged without suffer any damaged by the water (it was waterproof)

The device, disregarding what it really was, dont need to be unmounted and stored inside, can remain mounted with no damage due to be submerged.




I will try to finde this books somewhere. You offered me some help recently. And that is something you could help me with. Reading the book and quoting all important statements. This concerns all technical describtions, like that once that you made above. Also any describtions about procedures, own tactics and that of the enemy. Also important things about combat engagements, like from which distance they started to fire at targets, how many torpedos which target needed and how long it took for it to sink and stuff. Also all describtions about any damage and malfunctions that occured and also any flaws of the sub that he mention. Basicaly anything that is releavant for researches. Do you think you could do this for me ?

Deamon

Ok.... there are many everyday troubles and amazing historytells in those books. :up:

[Deamon]

Correct, Kpt. Spiess and his crew onboard the U-135 was send to contain a rebelion onboard many ships of the German Navy, he mentioned some of them....."Turinge", "Ostfriesland" and "Helgoland".

Ok, now i understand what you mean. Yes other boats were also sended out to sink the ships eventualy. Did something happened on this mission ?


16.000 meters he mentioned is the max range fro the 105mm gun, and it is normal for a 105 piece of artillery. It is obtained at about 46 degrees of elevation if i am not wrong by recall.
I soupose they dont shoot anything at 16.000 meters, i will take a look about if he mentioned some ranges in his attacks in his historytell..........

If i remember right it was U38 that opened fire from 8000 meters. What is damn far imo. With a telemeter like that on U 135 i guess they could start fire even further away. Would be good if there is a hint in the book about it.


Much like periscopes. This is great info. I conclude from all this that the other boats that he commanded had a telemeter too.

Nop...sorry, he never mentioned it... almost in this book, i need time to read the other one.

You wrote....

If i not remember bad....yes, he was happy to have a new biggest one, i dont remember if due to its replacement, or because he was reasigned from the U-9 to U-19 wich fix a biggest one, with more precision to be able to shoot from larger ranges.

I somehow doubt that it was due to a replacement. Did he said that just after he get the command over U 135 or later in the book ? And in which context did he mentioned that ?


Not mentioned speciphically, but it is subliminal message, if he comment about it can remain outside and submerged in water........ may be.... :hmm: only may be, there was old kinds wich needs to be unmounted and stored inside the sub, if not why the comment ?
May be i am wrong in this suposition...........

I refered to the boats before he got the command over U 135. My assumption was that if they had a telemeter then it must have been a portable one that had to be put inside the sub before diving, cose there were no fixed telemeters on the subs of that size.


Nop.... no speciphic comment about other models carried inside the sub, sorry, may be my dificoult to explain my feelings in english.

Ok if he was happy that he got a newer bigger one then the remaining question is whether it was an upgrade for U 135 or whether he refered to the subs he commanded before U 135.


Ok.... there are many everyday troubles and amazing historytells in those books. :up:

Yes this books are great. Great sources of information. I have a dozen of them. This books are the most immersive i ever readed. They are very different to the books from WWI for example.

Deamon

[Redwine]

You wrote....

If i not remember bad....yes, he was happy to have a new biggest one, i dont remember if due to its replacement, or because he was reasigned from the U-9 to U-19 wich fix a biggest one, with more precision to be able to shoot from larger ranges.


I somehow doubt that it was due to a replacement. Did he said that just after he get the command over U 135 or later in the book ? And in which context did he mentioned that ?


Yes i know..., sorry, i wrote that last days, by recall, whithout re-read the book...... i read that book 10 years ago.

Now in this last days, i re-read this book in my travel, and found the info........ and not, the comment was not about the replacement of a piece into U-9 or U-19, it was about a U-135 equipement.



Not mentioned speciphically, but it is subliminal message, if he comment about it can remain outside and submerged in water........ may be.... :hmm: only may be, there was old kinds wich needs to be unmounted and stored inside the sub, if not why the comment ?
May be i am wrong in this suposition...........

I refered to the boats before he got the command over U 135. My assumption was that if they had a telemeter then it must have been a portable one that had to be put inside the sub before diving, cose there were no fixed telemeters on the subs of that size.

Agree with you, i souposed the same, because....if not, why his comment ?

Why his comment about it can be remain mounted with no damage exposed to the water pressure ?

Sure it was a new, and it has implicit there was alod models with no waterproof .......

But sadly, i cant found any other reference to telemeters ant any place in this book.


Nop.... no speciphic comment about other models carried inside the sub, sorry, may be my dificoult to explain my feelings in english.

Ok if he was happy that he got a newer bigger one then the remaining question is whether it was an upgrade for U 135 or whether he refered to the subs he commanded before U 135.

Sadly no reference at any place about telemeters in the other subs under his command.

He only comment about it when comment the new surprising chracteristics of the U-135, and talk about it characteristic to be waterproof as a "newness".

The main question here is there was or not Telemeters in all other oldest sub models..... ? may be yes, and as he tell the waterproof as a "newness" i asume the old ones was not waterproof.

If not why to call this characteristic as a "newnees"........


Ok.... there are many everyday troubles and amazing historytells in those books. :up:

Yes this books are great. Great sources of information. I have a dozen of them. This books are the most immersive i ever readed. They are very different to the books from WWI for example.

Deamon

Whow....! and you dont know too much about it.

Some time he spot a cargo ship and hit a torp into it, but damages was poor, it remains floating and scape at very slow speed, he wait for the ship sinks, but not, a Tug appears, and it take the ship to pull it to port, then he decide to surface and maitain an artillery duel with the tug wich was armed with deck guns.... his artillery crew push it back, but then two destroyers appears armed with 150mm guns, then he decide to fight in surface, his artillery crew push back all 3 war ships, in this way he was able to run fast in surface to arrive more near to the cargo ship, wich was armed with cannons too.

It was the U-19 against 4 armed ship into an intense artillery duel, about the time..... he only tell the duel was 25 minutes of intense shooting when they push back the tug and the destroyers appears....

He comment the brave job of his artillery crew and finally at shooting distance and under fire of the 3 warships he sunk the cargo ship with deck gun fire at floatation line...... the ship sinks and he had time to take a picture of the ship sinking...... and submerge, because the enemy fire become more precise each minute.

What a balls that crew !

Really the book is...... "juicy", is a samall book, but, is wroted by the own hands of the Kpt. Spiess, it is really apleasure to read him.


There are many important data about behaviour there, some time he tell he was sailing surfacing at surface, between two destroyers separated 500m, they do not see him, until the clouds disapears and the moon was uncovered, then was fordced to dive.

Or in example after shoot a torp, in combat he forgot the last order to the dive plane operator, may be the sub become out of trim too after shoot the torp, and his crew call him.....

"Sir, must i to mantain the dive planes position ? "

He look at de depth meter and he was at 10m, he reach to contrl the sub at 8 meters if not remember bad, they was near to surface accidentaly in middle of the enemy ships they was attacking......

The otehr book i have from him, is not small, is very fat, but i dont have time to read it yet, i bought it only some weeks ago.


:up:

[Redwine]

In the second book, "Submarines ! ....6 years of cruise in submarines", there are many pictures, many from U-9 and U-19.

I found this..... some kind of device wich posible can be a telemeters, almost it looks as an artillery telemeter.



Here the U-19 with those apendix over the conning tower :

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6301/u19telemeter9dh.th.jpg (http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u19telemeter9dh.jpg)




Here an enlarged view :

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6524/u19telemeterbig8sb.th.jpg (http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u19telemeterbig8sb.jpg)

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7126/u19telemeterbig20el.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u19telemeterbig20el.jpg)




And here another view of the U-19 with no apendix on its conning tower :

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1540/u19conningtower8vg.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u19conningtower8vg.jpg)

May be it is the telemeter ?

[Deamon]

Hi Rewine,

sorry for the delay. I will reply later. I'm to bussy right now.

Cheers,
Deamon

[Deamon]

Hi Redwine, back to our discussion again.


http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/u19telemeterbig8sb%201.jpg

This are curtainly the tips of the two periscopes. ;)

The periscopes were not fully retractable and their tips always sticked out a bit.


http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/u19telemeterbig8sb%202.jpg


What this is though, i have no clue. It seem to be identical with that thing on U 53...

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/U%2053%202.jpg

...that seem to be mounted on the "Seerohrbock", don't know how to say this in english "periscope trestle" or "periscope rack" ?

On another image of U 53 it seem to be gone and a similar thing appear on a rack on the cover fin of the air intake pipes....

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/U53%201.jpg

Now the question is are this portable things ? And what were they for ?

Could it be maybe mounted on different spots on the sub ? Or was it a fixed thing that was repositioned during refitting/upgrades ?

It looks to me like a rack for something. I have the impression that it could have been turned around the height axis. Was it maybe meant as a machingun lafetty or something ?

Curtainly this is not a telemeter, cose a telemeter looks like this:

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/U139-141Telemeter.jpg

So my idea was that they have maybe used a small portable telemeter that could be stowed in the sub prior to dive. If so then it must have been a small one. But then i'm woundering do they realy needed a telemeter at all on the fleet type u-boats. Maybe the deckguns had an own range finder ? Range measures could have also been done with the stadimeter of the periscope or just with angle measures with the scale in the periscope view. Wouldn't be so accurate thought.

A real telemeter is i think meant for long range gunnery. Especialy for the 155mm guns. So the u-cruisers had a big fixed one, that was retractable like a perisope.

And on this U 53 image is another thing that puzzles me for a long time.... :hmm:


http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/Arni.jpg

Deamon

[2019]

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/Arni.jpg

Deamon

:rotfl: :rotfl:
Maybe that's his grandpa.
He has similiar eyes, tho

[Redwine]

Hi Deamon.... if you enlarge the screen shot i posted you will see 3 vertical protuberances, one of them seems to be a periscope, but the other 2 do not looks as a periscope device.....

Any way may be they are not the range finder.

Not all range finders looks as " T " form device, there was many difrent forms.

We need to search and found old pictures with devices similar to the following ones.....

Look at this one in example, with vertical arms, from WW1 artillery......

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1494/cnp75artilleryrange015lx.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cnp75artilleryrange015lx.jpg)




Here another with " T ", from WW1 too...

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3721/cpetelemeter011tz.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cpetelemeter011tz.jpg)




Here another with " T ", australian from WW1 too...

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/703/3044gd.th.jpg (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3044gd.jpg)

The device you shows looks to be an AAA mounting base, i agree with you.

[Deamon]

Hi Deamon.... if you enlarge the screen shot i posted you will see 3 vertical protuberances,

you surely mean the same that you have pointed out with the red arrows ?

one of them seems to be a periscope, but the other 2 do not looks as a periscope device.....

Which 2 ? This ?

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/u19telemeterbig8sb%201.jpg

[Redwine]

Not sure about this, but this arms looks so similar to a range finder......

http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/4995/u19tower5bx.th.jpg (http://img313.imageshack.us/my.php?image=u19tower5bx.jpg)

[Tikigod]

Here is my list:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49601

[Deamon]

Here is my list:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49601

Hey that could have been from me :)

Although my list is much longer than yours i still see here some new ideas that i'v overlooked. :lol:

:up:

BTW: Tell me what is chariot recovery supposed to be ?

Deamon

[2019]

Here is my list:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49601
So what would you say about an OPF experiance inside a u-boat?
That would be my most naughty dream. :up:

[nikimcbee]

Hey, it's been awhile. I hope your work is going good :yep: It would be cool if you re-created some of the famous patrols.

[Deamon]

Hey, it's been awhile. I hope your work is going good :yep:

Ahoy nikimcbee,

well right now there isn't much to say. Developement goes as usual not as good as i wanted but i'm fully immersed in to it. Team grows very slowly and i consider to team up with the SL Team to develope an engine that is going to be used for both sims. Time will tell whether it will succeed.

It would be cool if you re-created some of the famous patrols.

Yes that is my deepest desire. However this is still a long road, to it. The recreation of WWI u-boats is incredebly work intense. But the results are more than worth the effort.

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/U%2035%20vs%20Steamer.jpg
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/Flotilla%202.jpg
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/Flotilla%205.jpg
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/Media/Images/ForumPics/Flotilla%207.jpg


Currently i overwork U 1 and erase all the beginner errors. But i'm sure you will be more than pleased with even the humble results.

Deamon

[Rose]

When is this game coming out Daemon?

[Deamon]

When is this game coming out Daemon?

Uhh, dunno. Ask me in 3 years again then i surly can give you a more reliable date ;)

Deamon

[Redwine]

When is this game coming out Daemon?

Uhh, dunno. Ask me in 3 years again then i surly can give you a more reliable date ;)

Deamon

Come on Deamon ! :D We are in a hurry to have a WW1 subsim ! :up:

We wait impatient for your great job !

Best Regards, Red.

[Deamon]

Come on Deamon ! :D We are in a hurry to have a WW1 subsim ! :up:

We wait impatient for your great job !

Best Regards, Red.

Hey Redwine, howdy ?

Approximately at chrismas i could maybe offer you a simple prototype.

Deamon

[Redwine]

Come on Deamon ! :D We are in a hurry to have a WW1 subsim ! :up:

We wait impatient for your great job !

Best Regards, Red.

Hey Redwine, howdy ?

Approximately at chrismas i could maybe offer you a simple prototype.

Deamon

I'll be happy to have even a single model to use... :up:

May be you can do a "steped" release... initially with a single sub and a single base...

WW1 susimulation is a "black hole" in submarine simulation.... i think so all subsimmers are interested to have one sim based on WW1 behaviour, it very diferent than in WW2, we have a lack of this part of the subhistory.

:up: :up: :up:

[Deamon]

I'll be happy to have even a single model to use... :up:
There will be various models to test.

May be you can do a "steped" release... initially with a single sub and a single base...
Well, yes. Not officilay thought but within a small circle of testers to whitch you can belong if you like. But till an official demo release years will pass.

WW1 susimulation is a "black hole" in submarine simulation.... i think so all subsimmers are interested to have one sim based on WW1 behaviour, it very diferent than in WW2, we have a lack of this part of the subhistory.

:up: :up: :up:
Well, shells of fury will change this soon. But my project will still take so long.

Deamon

[Immacolata]

Pack of Wheels and Calculator Rulers :

http://rapidshare.de/files/12410567/Pack.zip.html



I have many .pdf files if you want them.



I'd really love to!

[Deamon]

Pack of Wheels and Calculator Rulers :

http://rapidshare.de/files/12410567/Pack.zip.html



I have many .pdf files if you want them.


Hey Redwine, would you mind to upload the pack again ?

BTW: I can confirm it now that at chrismas you can get the first prototype.

Cheers,
H

[Wings_of_Wrath]

Besides what's already been posted (don't we all want separate diving plane controls, mines, thermal layers, Q-ships, etc?) on my personal wishlist are:

1) Dazzle camo. (Always beeen wondering what it's like to peer up into the periscope and see a whole gaggle of ships painted like a bunch of circus clowns)
2) Asymetric funnels and masts. (it's got to be so much difficult to get a decent shooting solution when you can't really tell the target's angle.)

[Deamon]

Besides what's already been posted (don't we all want separate diving plane controls, mines, thermal layers, Q-ships, etc?) on my personal wishlist are: The boat will be fully controlable, being it the seperate planes or the toilet!

Thermal layers ? Well hydroacoustics is one of my most favourit subject :)

1) Dazzle camo. (Always beeen wondering what it's like to peer up into the periscope and see a whole gaggle of ships painted like a bunch of circus clowns) :lol:

Well yes, once it's wars turn to be implemented, expect to see all of this stuff.

2) Asymetric funnels and masts. I'm not sure what you mean with it. :hmm:

[Wings_of_Wrath]

2) Asymetric funnels and masts. I'm not sure what you mean with it. :hmm:

Well, early in 1916 the RN decided to give u-boats a hard time, so they experimented with altering merchants so that their masts and/or funnels were no longer on the centerline of the ship, or were tilted at odd angles, all in an attempt to confuse the german sub comanders as to the course of the target ship relative to the submarine. In the end, the idea was dropped in favour of the Dazzle camo system that was by far more time and cost-effective.

[Deamon]

Well, early in 1916 the RN decided to give u-boats a hard time, so they experimented with altering merchants so that their masts and/or funnels were no longer on the centerline of the ship, or were tilted at odd angles, all in an attempt to confuse the german sub comanders as to the course of the target ship relative to the submarine. In the end, the idea was dropped in favour of the Dazzle camo system that was by far more time and cost-effective. Now that is interesting. Didn't knew that. But i guess it never found a wide spreaded use ?

I never saw it mentioned in any account. But on the other hand dazzle was also never mentioned :hmm: At least i can't remember it being ever mentioned.

[Wings_of_Wrath]

Well, the idea was applied to only a handful of ships before it was discontinued so that's probably why it isn't usually mentioned. I remember seeing a photo of a merchant altered in this way, but I can't locate it right now. It was either in a book about WW1 or in a period magazine... Arghh... If only I could remember which one it was... :damn: (hold on a bit, I will post it as soon as I get my hand on it)

But on the other hand dazzle was also never mentioned
:o
You got to be joking me...
I mean, who could forget ships looking like THIS:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/HMS_Argus_%281917%29.jpg/575px-HMS_Argus_%281917%29.jpg

http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/images/dazzle3-600.jpg

http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/images/mahomet-600.jpg

http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/images/clovercolor2.jpg

http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/images/type24-600.jpg

(pictures from a cute site dedicated to Dazzle that can be found here: http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/articles/dazzle.html ) (http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/articles/dazzle.html)


Uggh.. my eyes hurt...

Oh, yeah... almost forgot... how about CONCRETE Ships?;)

[Deamon]

I remember seeing a photo of a merchant altered in this way, but I can't locate it right now. It was either in a book about WW1 or in a period magazine... Arghh... If only I could remember which one it was... :damn: (hold on a bit, I will post it as soon as I get my hand on it) Great i would like to see it.

But on the other hand dazzle was also never mentioned
:o
You got to be joking me...
I mean, who could forget ships looking like THIS:
I remember some of the german commanders complained that he head a hard time to estimate the data of a dazzled target. But i can't remember if it was from one of my books. I don't think so. But i think dazzle must have been wide spreaded(In the med too ?)

The lack of reports about dazzle encounters in the accounts dazzles me actualy :-?

Also in all the describtions from the german u-boat commanders about the measures of anti u-boat warfare i red, dazzle was never mentioned!

Maybe most were not so impressed about it that they have bothered to report it. But they reported other things like that the enemy sometimes painted a big bow wave on the bow what often missled the commanders about the true ship speed.

(pictures from a cute site dedicated to Dazzle that can be found here: http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/articles/dazzle.html ) (http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/articles/dazzle.html)

Uggh.. my eyes hurt...
Great. A longer time back we discussed in the team the implementation of dazzle cammo for ships.

Hey i have seen an duzzled u-boat once!

Oh, yeah... almost forgot... how about CONCRETE Ships?;) Heard of it a couple of times but don't know much about it. What's the deal with it ?

[Wings_of_Wrath]

The lack of reports about dazzle encounters in the accounts dazzles me actualy :-?

Also in all the describtions from the german u-boat commanders about the measures of anti u-boat warfare i red, dazzle was never mentioned!

Maybe most were not so impressed about it that they have bothered to report it. But they reported other things like that the enemy sometimes painted a big bow wave on the bow what often missled the commanders about the true ship speed.
Interesting.
The Allied sources I read abbound in references, and in 1917, "Dazzlemania" gripped the UK, as can be seen:

http://web.mac.com/gesamtkunstwerk/iWeb/The_Poetry_of_Sight/Dazzle%20Ship%20Gallery_files/DazzleTruck-full.jpg

http://web.mac.com/gesamtkunstwerk/iWeb/The_Poetry_of_Sight/Dazzle%20Ship%20Gallery_files/dazzleswimsuitssmall.png


"Captain Schmidt at the periscope
You need not fall and faint,
For it's not the vision of drug or dope,
But only the dazzle-paint.
And you're done, you're done, my pretty Hun.
You're done in the big blue eye,
By painter-men with a sense of fun,
And their work has just gone by.
Cheero!
A convoy safely by."



By the end of 1917, four hundred allied ships were dazzle-painted, from battleships to trawlers, and most had unique designs.
You can view some period photographs here:
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Marina/8163/dazzle.htm
Or here:
http://swansongrp.com/view.php

Also a must-read:
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/1_1.htm
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/2_1.htm


Heard of it a couple of times but don't know much about it. What's the deal with it ?
Ach.
Even after America's entry into the war, the Allies were losing so many ships to the U-boats in the North Atlantic, that they decided to make ships out of reinforced concrete in order to save steel, under the so-called "Emergency Fleet Programme".

The idea worked, but by the time the first ship, the USS Atlantus, was lanched, the war had been over by a month, so she was used to ferry troops home instead.
Anyway, because of that, the "concrete ships" have no place in the sim, but I thought they made an intresting subject.;)
More can be found here:
http://www.concreteships.org/

[Mush Martin]

Well, early in 1916 the RN decided to give u-boats a hard time, so they experimented with altering merchants so that their masts and/or funnels were no longer on the centerline of the ship, or were tilted at odd angles, all in an attempt to confuse the german sub comanders as to the course of the target ship relative to the submarine. In the end, the idea was dropped in favour of the Dazzle camo system that was by far more time and cost-effective. Now that is interesting. Didn't knew that. But i guess it never found a wide spreaded use ?

I never saw it mentioned in any account. But on the other hand dazzle was also never mentioned :hmm: At least i can't remember it being ever mentioned.

yeah Ive come across dazzle a few times notably in researching HMS Argus
there ( Furious was a hybrid argus was the first Flat Iron Carrier in history )
MM

[Deamon]

Hey i came across an diary excerp where the commander have mentioned an "painted" ship :D

[Mush Martin]

Parrafin was the fuel used in some of the earliest submarines.
British only or all submarines ?

And haven't england ever used gazoline ?

It's basically melted wax.

Wax ? that sounds troublesome. How can wax power a piston engine ?

It would usually leave a big white column of exhaust smoke. One German submarine officer said that he felt like the children of Isreal in the Bible story of Exodus because they always had this big white cloud hanging over them where ever they went.
So than it must have been used on early german prototypes as well ? whitch one were this ?

Parafin had other problems and was quickly replaced once diseal engines became available.
Again, where in england ?

Deamon

A and B classes were petrol powered
C class introduced Diesel to RN subs.
as these were the original Standard
classes the early Parrafin boats mustve
been early individual attempts or
prototypes of some kind.

[Platapus]

Deamon ... I think the words "paraffin" and "gasoline" were used almost interchangeably when describing what these early subs ran on. There might have been slight differences in ingredients, but

tone

Paraffin when used in this context means Paraffin Oil the more common name for this fuel is Kerosene. While Kerosene has the same greek root as wax, Paraffin Oil should not be confused with melted wax which would be called Paraffin. It is confusing

Submarine Paraffin engines used Paraffin Oil or Kerosene

Liquid Paraffin (the wax) can be used as a fuel in small stoves but it is choosen because if its slow burn rate

[Deamon]

Paraffin when used in this context means Paraffin Oil the more common name for this fuel is Kerosene. While Kerosene has the same greek root as wax, Paraffin Oil should not be confused with melted wax which would be called Paraffin. It is confusing

Submarine Paraffin engines used Paraffin Oil or Kerosene

Liquid Paraffin (the wax) can be used as a fuel in small stoves but it is choosen because if its slow burn rate
Platapus thanks for the clarification.:up:

[WWII44]

Perhaps a single mission where you can reneact the sinking of the Lusititania.