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terrapin
07-24-05, 07:36 AM
A good journalist has good sources, and should investigate things. Well, I have good insight now what 'Seawolves' contains....eg...:

Observer's Contact Map Mod. The Readme below is directly from the install directory of the english 'seawolves' version

----
Update:

I've updated this mod to eliminate the contact "tail". The only drawback to this mod is the tail for your uboat is also missing.

This version contains both the no contact color and tail mod. This zip is designed to work with the JoneSoft mod installer for SHIII. Unzip the files to your :\MODS folder making sure to use folder names when extracting the files. Select the mod with the JoneSoft installer and enjoy.

If you do not use the JoneSoft installer install the files to the directories below making sure to backup the originals first.

Full credit goes to Myros for the original concept and art...I've just tweaked it a bit. Original readme text below.

Observer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

A mod for Silent Hunter III.

This mod is for those playing with the 'no map update' option on and who like added challenge/realism.

The radio icons that appear on the map to notify you of contacts outside of your own range are no longer color coded. You will no longer know if the are friend/neutral/enemy untill you ID them personaly.

If you encounter any problems etc drop me an email at sh3@neuralstudios.com

Myros
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

INSTALATION:

ContLine.tga .... this file goes in SilentHunterIII\Data\Menu\Gui\

All other tga files go in SilentHunterIII\Data\Menu\Gui\Units\

As always ..... MAKE A BACKUP before adding, changing or overwriting any game file. That way if you dont like a change you can restore the original.

Zachstar
07-24-05, 07:39 AM
Im sure those arent the only mods they have taken.

Im sure its just the tip of the iceberg.

BTW post # 100 woot!

terrapin
07-24-05, 07:39 AM
or Pato's bearing overlay v 3.0, again the readme from the 'Seawolves' install directory:

----
Bearing Overlay v3.0
********************

Reworked numbers lines and added range circles up to 3000mts.

Install:

In C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\SilentHunterIII\data\Submarine\NSS_U boat**\NSS_Uboat**_shp.tga

Look for the TGA files on each folder and BACK UP the orginial ones, then you will have to manually rename this file to replace each of the original ones with its proper names for each type of hull.

Then backup the file Maps.cfg located in:

C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\SilentHunterIII\data\Menu\cfg\

Edit the file and modify this line from 5 to 20


SymbolZoom=20


This will allow the overlay to be visible with higer zoom levels

Note:

There is an offset of aprox +0.5 degree which is most obvious when heading east, this respond to some sort of asymmetry on the original file and I haven't been able to remove it completely.

Enjoy

Pato

terrapin
07-24-05, 07:41 AM
...from Nav Map tools v1.3...directly from the install directory of the english 'Seawolves' installation folder:

----

Nav Map tools v1.3 (SH3)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I highly recommend use with Jase's "360 Degree Bearing Plotter for Navigation Map".

v1.3:
- Corrected a stupid error in the compass.
- Added original files for uninstallation (SH3 v1.2 mouse.cfg and cursors)

v1.2:
- SH3 v1.2 patch compatible
- Changes to cursors:
new official protractor > normal protractor cursor (top:0, bottom:180)
ruler > reversed simple protractor cursor (top:180, bottom:0)
waypoint plotting tool > reversed compass cursor (top:south, bottom:north)
- Made markings slightly more clear.
- Since the protractor tool was added officially, I made "only with crosshairs" versions for all cursors. These are in folder named "Option/CrosshairOnly".

v1.1:
- 3 types of protractors (ruler cursors). Now you can select which to use from:
Reversed(top:180, bottom:0, default) / Normal(top:0, bottom:180) / Old version(v1.0).
- Remade the compass for waypoint tool.
- Small errors in mouse.cfg were corrected.
- Readme

v1.0:
- Added the protractor mouse cursor to the ruler.
- Added directional markings to the waypoint tool.
- Added cross hairs to other map tools (pencil, compass, eraser). You can pinpoint the exact location/object now.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why the markings on cursors of ruler/compass are inverted:
To tell you angles of the line which you are drawing (north = 0). Click your ship, extend a line, then read the markings. If you get confused about this, use the normal one in "Option-Ruler".

Installation:
- Move Mouse.cfg and all TGAs into /SilentHunterIII/data/menu/MouseCurs.
- If you wanna use the protractor with normal markings (top:0, bottom:180), move line.tga from the folder "Option-Ruler" to above mentioned place.
- If you think the big protractor cursors are no longer useful, use files in "Option/CrosshairOnly". These are the stock cursors with crosshairs.

Uninstallation:
- Original SH3 v1.2 files are in folder named "Backup".

Credits:
(in v1.0) I've used Chris L Peterson's compass image onto the cursor of waypoint tool with his permission. Thank you!

Cloudbait Observatory (http://www.cloudbait.com)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jiim (http://dod.xrea.jp/_silent/sh.htm)

terrapin
07-24-05, 08:37 AM
...and by Nico71 (unauthorized)...I'm pretty sure Anzackmicks and Sailor Steve's soundwork is also more or less 1:1 in 'Seawolves'....

So far I didn't find ANYTHING proprietary....

...btw...the complete package is 235 Megabytes...I don't understand why this couldn't be downloaded (in parts, that is...) by modem users.

Just for comparison: I'm providing more than 3.300 Megabytes of Mods and SH3 related files for free....


Did I mention that all I saw in 'Seawolves' is available for FREE at Subsim or my site?

Ah...the install of 'Seawolves' isn't easier at all than the procedure to install 'normal' Mods with JSGME...In fact it might be more complicated... :)

oRGy
07-24-05, 09:01 AM
I've seen someone make the point in another thread that any modifications to ubi files belong to ubisoft. This may be in some circumstances, but international copyright law says that if you create anything original (such as Irishred's radio messages or Ail's new clouds), then thats yours and anyone who wants to use that work needs permission. So I'd get some community fund together to get some lawyer to check this out properly...

Observer
07-24-05, 09:26 AM
Oh this is rich.

I guess PM doesn't work at this website. Oh wait. It does. Contacted my hairy backside.

X1 = thieves.

GT182
07-24-05, 10:42 AM
Thanks Terrapin, this confirms the suspicions I had right from the start. :up:

I for one will not buy it and call for a boycott, as The Avon Lady and Zachstar have done already.

Free is free and no matter who's putting out a "pay for" addon of free mods is, in my opinion, a thief.

Gairith
07-24-05, 10:47 AM
Bloody Pirates :arrgh!:

Dagger U-539
07-24-05, 11:21 AM
remember to pass the word to every forum you can..I am busy doing it now.

KodiakPA
07-24-05, 05:04 PM
It's appalling that X1 thought they could get away with stealing our modders hard work. Lousy no good rotten bloody pirates! :arrgh!:

Shadow9216
07-24-05, 05:07 PM
What store(s) did they say will carry this? They specifically mentioned a US distributor, anyone remember? It would be nice to give them a "heads up". I know some distributors here are ethical and would refuse to carry such a product, while others may not be so ethical but would want to steer clear of any possible controversy- including selling the disk.

Syxx_Killer
07-24-05, 05:22 PM
What store(s) did they say will carry this? They specifically mentioned a US distributor, anyone remember?

Hmmm... I'm not sure if this is right but I thought it was Matrix Games?

Drebbel
07-25-05, 01:44 AM
@Terrapin: For a person that is against Seewolfe you are sure doing a lot of media coverage for them ;)

The_Pharoah
07-25-05, 01:46 AM
:o

Are these guys serious? putting together a few freeware mods made by others in a pay-ware 'addon'??

terrapin
07-25-05, 02:05 AM
@Terrapin: For a person that is against Seewolfe you are sure doing a lot of media coverage for them ;)

First: I wasn't against Seawolves until I had proof of things I don't want to support...

Then: It's a problem inherent in journalism...shall we investigate bad things and publish them (and therefore risk to do PR for the 'bad guys'), or shall we just ignore things (and risk nobody ever learns what's going on...)?

We could discuss t h i s issue endlessly...is CNN or BBC (or whoever) guilty doing PR for terrorists just because they're reporting about incidents and political backgrounds?

NOT that I'm comparing X1 in anyway with terrorists - but the problem for the reporting side seems similar to me.

I'm not the kind of person posting or publishing without evaluating the effects first; it's up to the readers and visitors to decide wether I'm doing a bad or good job. Judged from my stats my site must have at least some interesting things...

wabos43
07-25-05, 02:17 AM
@Terrapin: For a person that is against Seewolfe you are sure doing a lot of media coverage for them ;)

First: I wasn't against Seawolves until I had proof of things I don't want to support...

Then: It's a problem inherent in journalism...shall we investigate bad things and publish them (and therefore risk to do PR for the 'bad guys'), or shall we just ignore things (and risk nobody ever learns what's going on...)?

We could discuss t h i s issue endlessly...is CNN or BBC (or whoever) guilty doing PR for terrorists just because they're reporting about incidents and political backgrounds?

NOT that I'm comparing X1 in anyway with terrorists - but the problem for the reporting side seems similar to me.

I'm not the kind of person posting or publishing without evaluating the effects first; it's up to the readers and visitors to decide wether I'm doing a bad or good job. Judged from my stats my site must have at least some interesting things...

I think your doing a good job to get the word out that Seewolves are bunch of pirates. :up: Great site by the way.

Catfish
07-25-05, 03:24 AM
@Drebbel,
certainly there's X1 mentioned in this, but what is mentioned is that seemingly each and every mod in this "expansion" has not been made by X1 and can be downloaded for free via Internet - i would not call this "advertisement", at least not for this X1 :lol:
Greetings,
Catfish

albatross
07-25-05, 06:10 AM
I've just read the locked thread, including opening the pornographic link while I'm at work :(

This OSSI, and the whole Seewolfe saga disgusts me :down:

Ship Hunter
07-25-05, 06:25 AM
Can you please post a full list of the mods they have included? My Interior Textures as well?

terrapin
07-25-05, 06:29 AM
Can you please post a full list of the mods they have included? My Interior Textures as well?


I didn't - nor do I - have the time to evaluate all data. PM me what files you are looking for...

The Avon Lady
07-25-05, 06:34 AM
Ail just posted on the Ubi forum that he did not give permission for commercial use of his mods to anyone and is rather peeved that someone would have the nerve to do this.

Another satisfied customer! :down:

terrapin
07-25-05, 06:39 AM
Ail just posted on the Ubi forum that he did not give permission for commercial use of his mods to anyone and is rather peeved that someone would have the nerve to do this.

Another satisfied customer! :down:

Yeah, read that...If anyone inhere has the time to crawl through the complete data of 'Seawolves' comparing it with previously released material, I'd appreciate reports inhere (or, if public discussion should not be appreciated by Neil or the moderators, privately at my known addresses)

terrapin
07-25-05, 06:48 AM
Aah...going through our 'unread messages' folder I just noticed we got mail from 'Ossi'. He's threatening - in rather bad German - to sue us...

The more he announced he 'won't be informing us ever again regarding future X1 releases'.
:)

Rest assured: I'll try MY best to inform YOU about...'future X1 releases'. :D

The Avon Lady
07-25-05, 06:50 AM
He's threatening - in rather bad German
Gee. Can't even get that right! :nope:

Shadow9216
07-25-05, 07:42 AM
So is OSSI going to get a court order to force SUBSIM to give up the IPs of all the posters? So he can find out who claims to have knowledge of "his" products content?

Zachstar
07-25-05, 07:45 AM
Ha it is he who shall recieve the court order.

jasonb885
07-25-05, 10:03 AM
Can you please post a full list of the mods they have included? My Interior Textures as well?


I didn't - nor do I - have the time to evaluate all data. PM me what files you are looking for...

I'll have to see what I can come up with.

Forensic analysis is fun.

:up:

RevRaz
07-25-05, 10:25 AM
This reminds me of a time I created an application for Ravenshield in order to help making maps easier. Someone took my program and put it on EBAY for $20.00.

Took me awhile to get it straighted out and to get it off.

msxyz
07-25-05, 10:57 AM
There is a sticky in the official forums:

It is not an official add-on, there is no deal between Ubisoft and X1SOFTWARE. The legal team at Ubisoft have been aware of the product for a while, I can assure you that.

macstu23
07-25-05, 11:51 AM
There is a sticky in the official forums:

It is not an official add-on, there is no deal between Ubisoft and X1SOFTWARE. The legal team at Ubisoft have been aware of the product for a while, I can assure you that.

Who posted it ?

KodiakPA
07-25-05, 11:59 AM
macstu23, I LOVE your signiture photo. Where did you get it and how did you post it as your sig?

terrapin
07-25-05, 12:06 PM
There is a sticky in the official forums:

It is not an official add-on, there is no deal between Ubisoft and X1SOFTWARE. The legal team at Ubisoft have been aware of the product for a while, I can assure you that.

I'm pretty sure they were NOT aware someone is going to violate applicable copyright laws - lawyers are not stupid per se... :D

Shadow9216
07-25-05, 12:07 PM
I think it was the community manager, UbiRazz, who posted that quote.

SeaSlug_U999
07-25-05, 12:12 PM
So, if X1 doesn't have Ubi's blessings, should we assume they don't have the SDK either?

I think we came as far as we could (in terms of modding) without the SDK. I was kinda (foolishly) hoping that X1 was willing to share the SDK with us. I've been playing around with 3dsmax and I guess we could expand SH3 further and faster than Ubi or any subsidiary.

Anyway, I was under the impresion that SH4 is underway (subsim.com gossip), so the majority of the modders agree we ain't gonna see the SDK soon. If X1 has done nothing but steal some mods freely available at subsim or other webpages, they're nothing but a bunck of w***ers. Before we fire at them, has anyone tried to contact them, to see their explanation?

CCIP
07-25-05, 12:16 PM
So, if X1 doesn't have Ubi's blessings, should we assume they don't have the SDK either?


I can tell you now that they have no SDK. And if they do, I must say it's a rather weak SDK or a weak effort on their part since they apparently used it for no more than data edits on or below the level of what the community has already achieved.

Which, I guess, means that they actually don't have it. :hmm:

terrapin
07-25-05, 12:28 PM
Before we fire at them, has anyone tried to contact them, to see their explanation?


sure, all in german, biggest part not quotable inhere, but sufficient enough to put X1 into a very bad light in front of a court.



X1 had no SDK access, the 'Seawolves' thing contains nothing but known mods....and we're able to prove definitely that the intellectual property of (at least) 5 people has been included without permissions....the story is evolving fast, and - to my knowledge - lawsuits are getting prepared as we speak.

SeaSlug_U999
07-25-05, 12:29 PM
Which, I guess, means that they actually don't have it. :hmm:

Yeah, you're probably right. Does anyone actually have contact with Ubisoft? Has anyone got a clearer picture of what's gonna happen with this game?

macstu23
07-25-05, 12:30 PM
macstu23, I LOVE your signiture photo. Where did you get it and how did you post it as your sig?

Sink the pirates Sig available completely free to the SH3 community from here;

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/803/ssx19xm.jpg

Designated freeware only, use at own risk. Not to be used for any commercial gain without permission from me the author (and a substantial cut of your profits.) :arrgh!:

terrapin
07-25-05, 12:31 PM
Which, I guess, means that they actually don't have it. :hmm:

Yeah, you're probably right. Does anyone actually have contact with Ubisoft? Has anyone got a clearer picture of what's gonna happen with this game?

No contact to Ubisoft Romania, but I can assure you it's getting better day by day thanks to our great modders!

SeaSlug_U999
07-25-05, 12:35 PM
X1 had no SDK access, the 'Seawolves' thing contains nothing but known mods....and we're able to prove definitely that the intellectual property of (at least) 5 people has been included without permissions....the story is evolving fast, and - to my knowledge - lawsuits are getting prepared as we speak.

Well done. I must say I'm impressed. I thought no one was going to jack about it. :yep:

If you'll excuse me, I go back at my 3dsmax now, I ruined my imaginary sub! :rotfl: When ubi gives us the SDK (if ever) you'll have the chance to a free rige on the Sourcouf, the sub-cruiser. :sunny:

KodiakPA
07-25-05, 12:54 PM
Thanks macstu23.

Syxx_Killer
07-25-05, 01:22 PM
macstu23, did you create that skin for the C3? If you did, I would LOVE to get a hold of it. I tried my first time skinning, but when I placed the logo on the ship it appeard all over the place! :shifty:

JBClark
07-25-05, 01:26 PM
macstu23, I LOVE your signiture photo. Where did you get it and how did you post it as your sig?

Sink the pirates Sig available completely free to the SH3 community from here;

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/803/ssx19xm.jpg

Designated freeware only, use at own risk. Not to be used for any commercial gain without permission from me the author (and a substantial cut of your profits.) :arrgh!:

I love this but can't figure out how to make it display. :88)

What do I need to do? Thanks

Syxx_Killer
07-25-05, 01:30 PM
I love this but can't figure out how to make it display. Goofy

What do I need to do?

Go to your Profile and scroll down to the signature area.

Copy this into your signature:

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/803/ssx19xm.jpg

Be sure to remove the spaces between the image URL and the [img] markup. If I remove the spacing here, it will show the picture instead of the text.

JBClark
07-25-05, 01:33 PM
Thanks Admiral.

Zachstar
07-25-05, 02:29 PM
Its a bit big but I love the sig!

Hey make a torpedo skin that says X1 lawsuit :rotfl:

nm

CCIP
07-25-05, 02:31 PM
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/803/ssx19xm.jpg

Designated freeware only, use at own risk. Not to be used for any commercial gain without permission from me the author (and a substantial cut of your profits.) :arrgh!:

OMG! You stole Iambecomelife's MVP skins for that screenshot :arrgh!:

Zachstar
07-25-05, 02:33 PM
Arrrrrrr pirates the lot of you ill hang ya from the tallest mast in the fleet! arrrr
:arrgh!:

terrapin
07-25-05, 03:18 PM
It *seems* (means I'm 99.9 % sure) that 11 additional unauthorized mods have been identified in 'Seawolves'.

Nico71
07-25-05, 03:19 PM
Arrrrrrr pirates the lot of you ill hang ya from the tallest mast in the fleet! arrrr
:arrgh!:

From the tallest mast? I have a better idea!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Nico170851821541560/KERKER.gif

joea
07-25-05, 03:25 PM
It *seems* (means I'm 99.9 % sure) that 11 additional unauthorized mods have been identified in 'Seawolves'.

Better head on over to SimHQ, one fellow there (not OSSI, his english is too good) claims to have only missed two modders...and they will remove the mods not authorised.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=129;t=001376

Never heard of this guy and he is from my hometown.

Syxx_Killer
07-25-05, 03:26 PM
From the tallest mast? I have a better idea!

http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/r/rofl.gif http://www.sevillagrande.org/foro/style_emoticons/default/meparto.gif http://www.apocalisse.org/forum/images/smiles/lmfao.gifhttp://www.techhelpers.net/e4u/comp/comp11.gifhttp://www.forocoches.com/foro/images/smilies/qmeparto.gif

Nico71
07-25-05, 03:27 PM
It *seems* (means I'm 99.9 % sure) that 11 additional unauthorized mods have been identified in 'Seawolves'.

Better head on over to SimHQ, one fellow there (not OSSI, his english is too good) claims to have only missed two modders...and they will remove the mods not authorised.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=129;t=001376

Never heard of this guy and he is from my hometown.

It's just Reg.

joea
07-25-05, 03:29 PM
Ahh ok...

terrapin
07-25-05, 03:31 PM
It *seems* (means I'm 99.9 % sure) that 11 additional unauthorized mods have been identified in 'Seawolves'.

Better head on over to SimHQ, one fellow there (not OSSI, his english is too good) claims to have only missed two modders...and they will remove the mods not authorised.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=129;t=001376

Never heard of this guy and he is from my hometown.

This is the famous Len Hjalmarson, and I bet he's feeling

'Arsch auf Grundeis' right now :)

joea
07-25-05, 03:39 PM
This is the famous Len Hjalmarson, and I bet he's feeling

'Arsch auf Grundeis' right now :)

Ok, used babelfish, though I guessed what it said...thanks to IL2 and SH3 (and having some German and german speaking friends) and the common roots with english. :rotfl: :rotfl:

Eisbock anyone? :()1:

KodiakPA
07-25-05, 03:41 PM
[Nico71 wrote]From the tallest mast? I have a better idea! [/Nico71 wrote]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 03:53 PM
I had a novel idea on the X1 issue. Email the contact address. I have never met this person or worked in any way with him but felt like the lynching was premature or at least thought I would ask for an explanation.
Wulfmann
I offered to post any reply to my questions and here is that reply::::::::::

“”””My answer to this issue of including the optional mods .. still zipped.. on the release CD..

Simply so that buyers can easily use the best of the freeware.. without having to find it in a list.. some of these things have various versions..

My reasoning.. guys have made this freeware stuff so anyone can use it..

Well.. anyone is using it.. we are making it available.. we did not simply “include” it in the build.. it has all their credits and advice..

So that users can reasonably choose it they want to use it..

Anyway.. that was why we put some of the mods on the CD

All the mods that are IN the build we have permission to use, with the single exception of Nico’s bit of work that was in World Mod 2.

Nico and I worked on that map together.. and released it first as shareware (which he didn’t like) and then as freeware so anyone could use it.””””

Reg

Wulfmann’s PS.
My area is CFS3 and I am in MAW, the Desert Rats. I did a very large set for CFS3 ETO, The complete Battle of Britain. 175 missions 41 aircraft many ships, spawns facilities and a host of things needed with dozens of links provided. Some have called it the best combat flight sim experience they ever had. Trouble is, you have got to be a serious mod installer to have a clue and most simply don't. Some offered to package it all on a CD and allow the FS sights to offer it as donationware. I had no problem but some of the other suppliers have a policy against any commercial use so a no go. So a black market set of CD-Roms were made (I turned a blind eye) and the install challenged could now just pop it in and fly the set. But still far fewer than a donationware CD
What is the point?

99.99999999999999% of all those that bought SH3 will never mod their game. They will not dare override the show files in the PF folder. So if they can't do what we all take for granted they do not deserve to improve their game; right?????
But, the thought of someone packaging all the mods and charging a fee that the download challenged would gladly pay so they too can have a better, corrected, that the devs refused to fix, version like us few, then God forbid, crucify them and give us Barabas, burn them at the stake, hang’em high, ship them to Poland in freight cars etc
But, with all these mods, I am amazed at how few of the mod makers (fearing the wrath of the mob with the torches ((and AR-15s in Texas) have said anything regarding their mods. Curious. But. don't let me stop the panicked lynch mob from satisfying their lust for blood.
This is the same mentality leading up to Kristalnacht.

So, the main objection is no one better take the improvement to idiots that can not do random installs of various mods that the very experienced simmers are constantly asking what happened and it CTD so the rookie should either do it our way or hit the highway.
We are constantly posting with concerns about compatibility etc and how can some be so arrogant to disallow others that chance. Do you really think there is big money in this?

I am not yet convinced that all is OK with this X1 deal but if, if, the mods that are original, not just a mod of the UBI stuff, get off your horse, if there are original add ons being offered without permission, I will join you in condemnation. But, after there is “real” proof and not, Hey, lets get’em, Ya, kill’em all burn down the castle

GT182
07-25-05, 04:05 PM
"99.99999999999999% of all those that bought SH3 will never mod their game. They will not dare override the show files in the PF folder. So if they can't do what we all take for granted they do not deserve to improve their game; right????? "

HORSE HOCKEY :nope: That statement, and the rest is a load of BS.

Many have already modded their SHIII and aren't afraid to with the FREE mods out there. So why even think of buying X1's expansion cd with stollen mods. There is even a mod installer that is pure simplicity to use. Why then has it been said that the X1 software will not install correctly? One simple answer is.... They didn't steal the installer. :rotfl:

msxyz
07-25-05, 04:07 PM
I understand how those modders feel.

It all started with a bunch of skins I've did back in the UT '99 days. A couple of months after I had released them, I found them all over the 'net without proper credits and -injury to the insult- a clan was using them, altered with their logo, and distributed along with a map-pack they were boasting as a in-house production.

I still love to mod games but now, whatever I do, I keep it for myself. Lesson learnt.

Dagger U-539
07-25-05, 04:14 PM
OK heres an idea...since X1 wants to sell other peoples mods. why not set up a chat room and have a"town meeting"If you want to sell their mods give them credit where credit is due,and pay them for their work.Face it without the support of the small but strong Subsim community they'll be wasting ALOT of money.Nobody is going to win in a situation like this and the best thing for all involved is to sit down and talk.I'm sure X1 would rather talk to the modders than their legal advisors,and it seems several have been talking to them.
So OSSI why not give this a chance?You're trying to package and sell an item that can be had for free.work with the modders and maybe everyone can come out of this a winner.

GT182
07-25-05, 04:14 PM
Msxyz, I'm very sorry to hear that. Anyone that steals mods and claims them as their own doesn't deserve the use of them or any other mod. May their computers burn out as fast as they installed them.

The same has happen to skins for IL2 and many skin makers have quit too. It's a dirty rotten shame that a few ruin it for the many. But as with sites that are dishing out bootlegged games, it just shows there is no honor among thieves.

I don't know if I have any of your mods but if I do, my hat is off to you and your work. And tha same goes for anyone that has the talent I don't to make these mods and skins. I salute you all, whether you continue or not. ~S!~

I wouldn't have been so bad if X1 had made an effort to pay the modders their fair share for the work they did. It's gone too far now to go back and make amends I think. No one will trust anyone again, and that's sad.

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 04:59 PM
Lets see now from my BS point of view. How many people have downloaded any one mod?
Please, can someone answer that? Anyone? Anyone?
It is my guess 100,000 copies and likely more have been sold of SH3. So, by your expertise, 182 you assume what, 50,000 downloads of certain mods each?
Anyone dare to reveal the number of mod DLs

Now, lets review what evidence X1 has admitted, for the record.

They have permission to use the mods included in their payware.
That is my understanding. Show me actual proof they do not
They have also included mods by others, many freeware mods, at no additional charge, that the user can also add if they choose. They have included the read me and given credit, as I understand it
Any mod maker that does not want their mod on this CD or believes they are not credited with their work should email X-1 and make their case known.
Don’t assume, do it or shut up.
If you made a mod and wonder, email them, they have a contact email for you to do this. Be fair, communicate, find the facts or shut up!

Of course, that is just too reasonable for the angry mob that wants to see a hangin.

Instead, put on a web site arm band and parade your bandwagon hatred for those that are going to buy that mansion on the Rivera with the sweat off the downtrodden mod makers.
There is likely millions in this add on, they will certainly be rich while keeping the modders down!!

As I said, I will wait for "all" the facts but I dare any of you in the KKK style mob to make a claim if found wrong you will be as vocal in your apology as in your Kristalnacht rampage before the facts.

I will bet you will scurry under the floor boards and hide your white hoods when the daylight appears.
What in the world will you say if this is not the crime you contend?

I will continue to view evidence as it is presented and ask any modder that complains if they have contacted X-1 or not. If it is found X-1 are indeed the bad guys, I will join the march but will not resort to the childish behavior many seem to insist on.

Wulfmann

Duke of Earl
07-25-05, 05:05 PM
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/803/ssx19xm.jpg

Is this skin available somewhere?... I'm looking for a download link...

This would look really good on the Commerce Raider... :up:

(flag mod too!)...

Cordialement, Duke of Earl

Jace11
07-25-05, 05:14 PM
Poor Wulfmann has been lied to, or he is a paid mouthpeace for X1

The message you he so proudly shows is from Reg? Are you sure that's his real name? We know his real identity (which he has to hide cause sim community knows it already - a reputation he is trying to shed).

There is also a steadily growing list of people who's mods are in SEEWOLVES without their permission. It is not 1 person. That is why they released a statement (though not to you - as it doesn't concern you) that they are now removing all that content.

X1 are also trying to buy these people off with free copies as we speak. I have seen these emails from more than one source.

Your own correspondence is deliberatley false and from someone who can't be honest enough with you to tell you their own name. :)

Nice. Do you still feel like you are alone in knowing the true facts...?

terrapin
07-25-05, 05:23 PM
hmmmm, U.Boot.RealSimulation.com had more than 2 Terabyte traffic in June 2005...I don't think people aren't downloading mods.... :rotfl:

XabbaRus
07-25-05, 05:31 PM
Wulfmann I think they evidence that you need to show that X1 have, without permission included people's free mods is shown in another thread here where terrapin has posted the setup readmes included with mods in the package that still bear teh modders name and also some of the modders who created the mods in the first place have recognised their mods in the package.

If this happens with SCX or DWX when it comes I'll be out for bear :)

Nico71
07-25-05, 05:52 PM
Hey Wulfman! Under which rock did you hide during the last two days? You are not up-to-date, so to say!

Now look what Doenitz has to say about X1 and Porno-Ossi!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Nico170851821541560/doenitz.jpg

Shadow9216
07-25-05, 05:59 PM
They have permission to use the mods included in their payware.
That is my understanding. Show me actual proof they do not

I think the focus is shifting a bit. The accusation is that they do not have permission, it is up to them to show they do. There is proof X1 has included non-original work in their mod. Since others have claimed these were "pirated", the proof would be on X1's side to establish their "right" to these works.

Were this a court, as it may well end up, the plaintiff/prosecution would lay out a case against X1, charging them with attempting to sell materials they don't own. Let's avoid any emotionally charged language, any inflammatory rhetoric and leave it at that. Simplistic, but even handed.

The plaintiff/prosecution would have to show X1 is willfully marketing a product, not their own, without permission.
So far, it has been shown that not all content in X1's expansion is of their own manufacture.

X1 would, in turn, have the right to confront the witnesses and evidence against them. In this case, they merely need to show permission from the modders whose works have been included.

I'm honestly asking if this has been done? You claim they have done this, this is your understanding, yet turn around and demand proof. In the sense of fairness and even tempered handling, I would like to see proof that they have/had permission. Either a written declaration, or the modders themselves posting here.

As I said, I will wait for "all" the facts but I dare any of you in the KKK style mob to make a claim if found wrong you will be as vocal in your apology as in your Kristalnacht rampage before the facts.

You say you will wait for all the facts, what else is still remaining, in your opinion? You're satisfied with X1's explanation, are you asking for further proof that the mods were included without permission?

BTW, as an American AND one who has spent his adult life working for various government agencies to oppose groups like the KKK, I do take exception to your comments above. This situation seems tense enough as is, we don't need to accuse each other of membership in such an odious organization.

I will make you this promise. If it can be proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that X1 had permission from the modders in question prior to this story breaking, I will sound my apology on this forum loud and clear. I had asked in my earlier posts to be proved wrong by them, in fact I was hoping to be proven wrong, that they would come forth and say "here's what we're using and here's the permission". They didn't have to tip their hand and detail everything in the mod, since I'm sure there was plenty of their own original content; I would have been satisfied with a simple "we used Pato's mod, Observer's mod, X/Y/Z's mod with their permission"...that would have established their bona fides quite simply.

They chose instead silence, subterfuge, mockery as their responses.

Wulfmann, there are two things I would respectfully request of you. Number one is to refrain from ordering people to "shut up", regardless of the condition you place upon the request. That's not only rude, but it supports the totalitarian mind set you accuse others of having. Number two would be to not resort to comparisons of the sort you have engaged in. The Klan, like the Nazis, represent for many people that which is least desirable in humanity. I doubt you intended such a slur, but that is what you did. For those of us who have seen their villany, and attempt to combat it on a daily basis, such comparisons are very unappreciated. I'm sorry, but I cannot think of an appropriate mechanism to carry my sense of indignation at such a comment.

NZ_Wanderer
07-25-05, 05:59 PM
I couldn't resist anymore, I just HAD to borrow the sig to show my support...
I promise I'll be a good skipper and not try to sell it :up:

terrapin
07-25-05, 05:59 PM
http://mpgtext.net/pics/searipoff.jpg

terrapin
07-25-05, 06:03 PM
They have permission to use the mods included in their payware.
That is my understanding. Show me actual proof they do not

I think the focus is shifting a bit. The accusation is that they do not have permission, it is up to them to show they do. There is proof X1 has included non-original work in their mod. Since others have claimed these were "pirated", the proof would be on X1's side to establish their "right" to these works.

Were this a court, as it may well end up, the plaintiff/prosecution would lay out a case against X1, charging them with attempting to sell materials they don't own. Let's avoid any emotionally charged language, any inflammatory rhetoric and leave it at that. Simplistic, but even handed.

The plaintiff/prosecution would have to show X1 is willfully marketing a product, not their own, without permission.
So far, it has been shown that not all content in X1's expansion is of their own manufacture.

X1 would, in turn, have the right to confront the witnesses and evidence against them. In this case, they merely need to show permission from the modders whose works have been included.

I'm honestly asking if this has been done? You claim they have done this, this is your understanding, yet turn around and demand proof. In the sense of fairness and even tempered handling, I would like to see proof that they have/had permission. Either a written declaration, or the modders themselves posting here.

As I said, I will wait for "all" the facts but I dare any of you in the KKK style mob to make a claim if found wrong you will be as vocal in your apology as in your Kristalnacht rampage before the facts.

You say you will wait for all the facts, what else is still remaining, in your opinion? You're satisfied with X1's explanation, are you asking for further proof that the mods were included without permission?

BTW, as an American AND one who has spent his adult life working for various government agencies to oppose groups like the KKK, I do take exception to your comments above. This situation seems tense enough as is, we don't need to accuse each other of membership in such an odious organization.

I will make you this promise. If it can be proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that X1 had permission from the modders in question prior to this story breaking, I will sound my apology on this forum loud and clear. I had asked in my earlier posts to be proved wrong by them, in fact I was hoping to be proven wrong, that they would come forth and say "here's what we're using and here's the permission". They didn't have to tip their hand and detail everything in the mod, since I'm sure there was plenty of their own original content; I would have been satisfied with a simple "we used Pato's mod, Observer's mod, X/Y/Z's mod with their permission"...that would have established their bona fides quite simply.

They chose instead silence, subterfuge, mockery as their responses.

Wulfmann, there are two things I would respectfully request of you. Number one is to refrain from ordering people to "shut up", regardless of the condition you place upon the request. That's not only rude, but it supports the totalitarian mind set you accuse others of having. Number two would be to not resort to comparisons of the sort you have engaged in. The Klan, like the Nazis, represent for many people that which is least desirable in humanity. I doubt you intended such a slur, but that is what you did. For those of us who have seen their villany, and attempt to combat it on a daily basis, such comparisons are very unappreciated. I'm sorry, but I cannot think of an appropriate mechanism to carry my sense of indignation at such a comment.


EXCELLENT POST!!

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 06:22 PM
If the evidence, not the mob hysteria, shows that X-1 has intentionally defrauded people, that can be shown by facts not childish Nazi style rhetoric. I will happily join any ban of their product

So far most of what I have heard is general ranting with little to no fact.

Taking the wait and see now has me labeled as on the payroll of someone I have made one email to for an explanation and I freely posted that. You prove by that moronic statement my case.

The fact I blatantly stated I have nothing to do with X-1, in any way still has me labeled as an enemy, of what, reason, a desire for proof before we string them up?
So if someone does not take your side and shout hang'em, down with them, then they too will be sent to the camps?

I repeat, how many mods have been downloaded? That is, name the top 5 mods and the number of times they have been downloaded and then get a figure on the number of SH3 sales and do the math. Let’s see the numbers not the number of times people have looked at RealUboat.com but exact numbers of DLs. Hect, I have checked there hundreds of times but DL the ones I want once.

Make your ignorance known by claiming most end users download. That is an admittance of knowing nothing regarding the freeware mod world.

True, I have not released any mods but I have made a few. I will not be doing much here in modding but to suggest I am ignorant of this situation is wrong.
I have suggested all modders simply list the site that mod can be offered and insist it can not be redistributed without paying $100,000.00, what I add to my CFS3 mods after a similar situation found many of our mods on a flight sim site requiring a membership fee to cover band width.

I am not against joining a legitimate ban, but I am against the mentality that brought us Kristalnacht, KKK cross burnings and other whip the crowd into frenzy insanity. That is the manner this group is presenting, a hate fest beyond the scope of the problem.

Let the facts speak for themselves. Start presenting real fact, please. You were quick to make vague statements to allow this to be a flame beyond what is healthy for the community.

And if X-1 is reading this, please come clean on every mod by contacting each person and eliminate any mod you do not get direct permission for its use. X-1 could also go far to cool this down and improve their tarnished image by a straight forward addressing of the concerns expressed by many, even if wrongly ignorant, there is enough to indicate you must actively engage in correcting anything even seemingly improper. A healthy Sub Sim community is in everybody’s interest.

Wulfmann

Zachstar
07-25-05, 06:25 PM
I couldn't resist anymore, I just HAD to borrow the sig to show my support...
I promise I'll be a good skipper and not try to sell it :up:

Thats right! You better not try to sell my 5-min sig or I shall sue you into poverty! :hulk:

lol its cool glad you like it. :D

XabbaRus
07-25-05, 06:29 PM
Regardless of the have they taken someone's mod and making money argument there is the EULA with SHIII to contend with.

I am in the SCX mod team and hopefully the DWX team.

We have had alot of support from SCS on this.

The EULA though quite clearly says that we can mod the game eg alter the dbase, add models etc but we can't sell the mods.

X1 are doing this in effect so regardless of whether they have permission or not if they haven't got a deal with UBI then they are probably breaking an EULA in SHIII. Like SCX I am understanding that a lot of SHIII modding is manipulating what is already there from the outset of the sim...so although UBI let people mod they wouldn't like it if mods start getting sold...

The only way I could see a mod being sold would be if it was seperate from the game completely, ie a new 3d model that is made independent of the sim and uses no data from it.

Jace11
07-25-05, 06:29 PM
Well, I think this is more a case of a few individuals trying to stiff others, steal their work and make money. Sure it contains some of their own original work, but that would not be enough to sell on its own. So they took a other peoples items. Reg/Len says all but one person was contacted to ask permission - that is apparently not so.

The community is just reacting. I have not seen any lynchings. Infact I think its been pretty proportionate. This exists only in the internet, well except the legal stuff that is rumoured to be going on...

gdogghenrikson
07-25-05, 06:35 PM
I agree with Wulfman

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 06:40 PM
S-9216,
I was writing my reply above before I saw your excellent post with many good points.
However, when people take a mob mentality and act like the KKK or Nazis I will say they are acting just like they are acting. If they have a right to prejudice, I have a right to say they are acting prejudice.

I too will vocally join the chorus of unfair and foul play and ban X-1, after the verdict is in and not the mod hysteria that generalizes this topic.

My beef is nothing regarding X-1; it is the attitude of mob mentality that has permeated this topic. In CFS3 I have been one of the mod makers that other felt they needed to show their support for in a similar situation. But, we insisted we obtain the facts before we acted. I am asking for a like, and I believe reasonable, approach..

My shut up was a challenge to act or don’t complain; put up or shut up. It stands as is. If anyone believes there is a mod of theirs on the X-1 product, speak up or don’t cry about it, do something about it. Don’t be a whiner.

We also have the ability to make a positive influence in shaping an X-1 mod that would benefit SH3 and enlarge our community in spite of the ignorance that most users are also downloaders. If X-1 can get permission, add what they rightfully created, then add things the community believes would help the end user that is afraid to do more than put in a DVD and click express install, we would all benefit more than the SH3 war now raging to the benefit of no one.
Wulfmann

Dagger U-539
07-25-05, 06:45 PM
If the evidence, not the mob hysteria, shows that X-1 has intentionally defrauded people, that can be shown by facts not childish Nazi style rhetoric. I will happily join any ban of their product

So far most of what I have heard is general ranting with little to no fact.

Taking the wait and see now has me labeled as on the payroll of someone I have made one email to for an explanation and I freely posted that. You prove by that moronic statement my case.

The fact I blatantly stated I have nothing to do with X-1, in any way still has me labeled as an enemy, of what, reason, a desire for proof before we string them up?
So if someone does not take your side and shout hang'em, down with them, then they too will be sent to the camps?

I repeat, how many mods have been downloaded? That is, name the top 5 mods and the number of times they have been downloaded and then get a figure on the number of SH3 sales and do the math. Let’s see the numbers not the number of times people have looked at RealUboat.com but exact numbers of DLs. Hect, I have checked there hundreds of times but DL the ones I want once.

Make your ignorance known by claiming most end users download. That is an admittance of knowing nothing regarding the freeware mod world.

True, I have not released any mods but I have made a few. I will not be doing much here in modding but to suggest I am ignorant of this situation is wrong.
I have suggested all modders simply list the site that mod can be offered and insist it can not be redistributed without paying $100,000.00, what I add to my CFS3 mods after a similar situation found many of our mods on a flight sim site requiring a membership fee to cover band width.

I am not against joining a legitimate ban, but I am against the mentality that brought us Kristalnacht, KKK cross burnings and other whip the crowd into frenzy insanity. That is the manner this group is presenting, a hate fest beyond the scope of the problem.

Let the facts speak for themselves. Start presenting real fact, please. You were quick to make vague statements to allow this to be a flame beyond what is healthy for the community.

And if X-1 is reading this, please come clean on every mod by contacting each person and eliminate any mod you do not get direct permission for its use. X-1 could also go far to cool this down and improve their tarnished image by a straight forward addressing of the concerns expressed by many, even if wrongly ignorant, there is enough to indicate you must actively engage in correcting anything even seemingly improper. A healthy Sub Sim community is in everybody’s interest.

Wulfmann
If you would look through the posts you'll see several modders who say their work is in the mod and they didn't give permission for them to use them.IF X1 is really caring about their image and IF they really want to market something like this then they need to talk to the modders.People are reacting to the situation the way they are because X1 started the whole thing by their actions.IF they want to help their sells and IF they really are a decent company then they do need to do ALOT of damage control.
Unfortuately calling people KKK members and saying it's a lynch mob isn't going to help X1...are you on their pay roll?or do you speak for them? I appricate your standing up for them and asking for evidence..but look at the start of this thread and read the read mes included with the their mod.
also read through and you'll see several of the modders whos work is on teh their mod..they say they didn't give permission..to me thats a open and close case.X1 needs to sit down with teh modders and get their permission or take ALL the modders work,not their work,but every mod that they don't have permission to use out.OK I know that will leave about a 1 meg disc. so if they want to use them ask..sign a deal.ok so they don't get 100% of the profits..but maybe IF all the modders release a mod for free that has all their work put together then maybe they;ll think twice.I just hope they are ready for the response if they release their work without everyones permission,and the well we tried to get them but they didn't answer us won't hold water.Get a name on a dotted line or get teh mod out.I am hoping they will act with honor and maturity and do the right thing.

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 07:01 PM
If you would look through the posts you'll see several modders who say their work is in the mod and they didn't give permission for them to use them.IF X1 is really caring about their image and IF they really want to market something like this then they need to talk to the modders.People are reacting to the situation the way they are because X1 started the whole thing by their actions.IF they want to help their sells and IF they really are a decent company then they do need to do ALOT of damage control.
Can you not see you are just repeating what I said? You are agreeing with me and arguing over it, LOL

Unfortuately calling people KKK members and saying it's a lynch mob isn't going to help X1...are you on their pay roll?or do you speak for them? How many times must I say I have nothing to do with X-1 and I simply emailed them and asked for an explanation and I posted that. How many times? Please list the exact number and I will post it that many times.

I appricate your standing up for them and asking for evidence..but look at the start of this thread and read the read mes included with the their mod.
also read through and you'll see several of the modders whos work is on the their mod..they say they didn't give permission..to me thats a open and close case.X1 needs to sit down with the modders and get their permission or take ALL the modders work,not their work,but every mod that they don't have permission to use out.OK I know that will leave about a 1 meg disc. so if they want to use them ask..sign a deal.ok so they don't get 100% of the profits..but maybe IF all the modders release a mod for free that has all their work put together then maybe they;ll think twice.I just hope they are ready for the response if they release their work without everyones permission,and the well we tried to get them but they didn't answer us won't hold water.Get a name on a dotted line or get the mod out.I am hoping they will act with honor and maturity and do the right thing.[/quote]
This is again what I said in my post and you are agreeing with it but still arguing over it at the same time except for the open and shut case you admit to before all the facts are in. BTW, How many modders (I don't know) have work on this and how many have not given permission and then we will see if X-1 does the right thing and contacts each and every modder and not inlude any work that is not with permission

Wulfmann

terrapin
07-25-05, 07:19 PM
However, when people take a mob mentality and act like the KKK or Nazis


I can't see any mob mentality inhere...but, on the other hand - IF I'd publish the mails from 'Ossi' you'd see who's acting in a questionable way...

Please STOP comparing anyone inhere with the KKK or Nazis - totally inappropriate!

CCIP
07-25-05, 07:25 PM
That's exactly my point, what Terrapin says.

It would be relevant to think of it as an over-reaction, or calling for benefit of the doubt for X1 - BUT facts are facts, and unfortunately (or fortunately) we have enough of them to give no doubt or benefit here unless X1 drastically change their position NOW.

It's up to their initiative to clear themselves up, not the community's. The community gave them a chance, but they've failed to show any concern so far. They seem to be more concentrated on selling copies to those outside of the community now.

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 07:29 PM
Please ask people to stop acting like KKK or Nazis!!! LOL. Sorry, I could not resist:rotfl: Just kidding!!!

I am not on any side and it would be with the mod makers if I had to choose. But, all one has to do is look through this thread at all the new ban X-1 signatures to see the frenzied mob mentality. If you wish to justify it, that is your choice, I am trying to let some alarmist know just what they appear to be acting like. If it acts like a duck..........

Wulfmann

Elder-Pirate
07-25-05, 07:33 PM
Sink the pirates Sig available completely free to the SH3 community from here;

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/803/ssx19xm.jpg

Designated freeware only, use at own risk. Not to be used for any commercial gain without permission from me the author (and a substantial cut of your profits.) :arrgh!:


Thanks macstu23 for the sig permission. :rock:

NZ_Wanderer
07-25-05, 07:38 PM
all the new ban X-1 signatures to see the frenzied mob mentality.

Ohhhh now I'm part of a frenzied Mob.... - Never been in one of those before.. - What do I have to do?? - Tell me where to sail my U-boat to go join this mob and I will do it straight away... :rotfl: :rotfl:

terrapin
07-25-05, 07:38 PM
My family lost a lot of members due to the Nazis...nobody is killing anyone inhere...PLEASE!


Please ask people to stop acting like KKK or Nazis!!! LOL. Sorry, I could not resist:rotfl: Just kidding!!!

I am not on any side and it would be with the mod makers if I had to choose. But, all one has to do is look through this thread at all the new ban X-1 signatures to see the frenzied mob mentality. If you wish to justify it, that is your choice, I am trying to let some alarmist know just what they appear to be acting like. If it acts like a duck..........

Wulfmann

deathping---
07-25-05, 07:40 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<Moderator Edit because... well... stupidity>

thanos
07-25-05, 07:43 PM
[quote="deathping---"]I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<Moderator Edit... Geeze I wish people wouldn't quote this stupidity... it just makes more work for me>

Oh my...

Nico71
07-25-05, 07:45 PM
:rotfl:

terrapin
07-25-05, 07:46 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<I leave town for a day and people not only post this stupidity, but repost it over and over and over by quotinbg it!>




NEAL?

http://mpgtext.net/pics/target.jpg

Nico71
07-25-05, 07:49 PM
What's wrong with that? I think it has some entertainment value! :up:

Pablo
07-25-05, 07:50 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.


There's a TROLL.... :hulk: ...in the dungeon! Thought you ought to know.... :dead:

- Professor Quirrell, as quoted in J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

thanos
07-25-05, 07:52 PM
What's wrong with that? I think it has some entertainment value! :up:

Yea I guess it does... :hmm:

terrapin
07-25-05, 07:52 PM
deathping = Ossi = Steffen Trombke?

Nico71
07-25-05, 07:54 PM
No, the English is too good!

terrapin
07-25-05, 07:54 PM
No, the English is too good!


:rotfl: :rotfl:

thanos
07-25-05, 07:56 PM
And the guy or whatever with the israeli flag, I see you working, you are an anti-Germite. Clever eh?




By the way what's an anti-Germite? One who is against germs? I don't like germs either, they're nasty little buggers. :cool:

Jace11
07-25-05, 08:00 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<Moderator: Damn... this is geting tiring editing all of these quotes...>



WOW he must be really angry about something. He sounds furious. I bet it probably wouldn't make him feel better to know the unsecured links at X1 mean its not going to sell a million copies and its available for free? So I hear... ;)

irishred
07-25-05, 08:00 PM
And the guy or whatever with the israeli flag, I see you working, you are an anti-Germite. Clever eh?




By the way what's an anti-Germite? One who is against germs? I don't like germs either, they're nasty little buggers. :cool:

Wouldn't anti-Saxonite be a better term?

thanos
07-25-05, 08:05 PM
Wouldn't anti-Saxonite be a better term?

I am not sure...I ment germs as in " A microorganism, especially a pathogen." ;)

Nico71
07-25-05, 08:08 PM
Wouldn't anti-Saxonite be a better term?

Verbibbsch! :huh:

NZ_Wanderer
07-25-05, 08:08 PM
*** Jumps down from the conning tower and battens down all the hatches ***

Take us down Number one... When the Avon Lady sees that message on the previous page it's gonna be like WW3 broke out and I don't want to be anywhere near the surface :rotfl: :rotfl:

DIVE, DIVE, DIVE

terrapin
07-25-05, 08:09 PM
btw...Neal seems to have joined the 'mob'


http://mpgtext.net/pics/ssim.jpg

Jace11
07-25-05, 08:11 PM
And CCIP appears to have been promoted to "moderator"

He is here often enough, that's for sure..

Wonder what his first use of his new "magic" powers might be..

Nico71
07-25-05, 08:12 PM
Let's welcome our new mob member! :-j

KodiakPA
07-25-05, 08:12 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<Moderator: My fingers are getting tired>



:huh: ????

thanos
07-25-05, 08:12 PM
And CCIP appears to have been promoted to "moderator"

He is here often enough, that's for sure..

Wonder what his first use of his new "magic" powers might be..



Some anti-germ warfare maybe?

Type941
07-25-05, 08:13 PM
i think noone would have a problem with this if the CD cost like 5-10 euros and EVERY single person whose mod has been included has been contacted, given credit, etc. This didn't have to be a bad thing, yet it turned sour.


Thing that pisses people off is that the bottom line is like this:

I spend time making skin, for instance, it takes from 10 to 20 hours from my experience to make a skin, not to mention research. That's just 1 skin! So imagine the time we spend, for free. Now someone is selling it to make money. comon. something's not right. It may be all kosher legally, but it's just not cool for the community that made these mods in the first place.

As someone said, this thing discourages from making mods. I keep all my mods released with big readme files, notes, etc, and still find 'f7ckers' releasing them under their own name, scum bags, may their sad lives be filled with joy. X1 surely has thought it would pass, but it's very easy to ignore a some forums. There will be people just going to store, buying SH3, and than - buying this Addon as 'recommendation' from salesman.

Idea of having BEST mods nicely packaged is great - but not like this.


Get agreements with Ubisoft, get the people who modded the game, pay them a tiny royalty (or ship them some free hardware or whatever), and do it right. Right now it looks like a bunch of dudes got together on an adventure and are looking to see how much than money they can sucker people out of. They don't seem to have the strength to do it the right way, so it's getting done like this. The fact that modding community in general rarely gets a deserved respect is all too magnified in this particular case.

Like I said - for 5 euros I'd buy it, but I'm not very happy that the people who actually MADE the mods are not seeing a penny from it. That's wrong.

Just my .02c

terrapin
07-25-05, 08:19 PM
i think noone would have a problem with this if the CD cost like 5-10 euros and EVERY single person whose mod has been included has been contacted, given credit, etc. This didn't have to be a bad thing, yet it turned sour.


Thing that pisses people off is that the bottom line is like this:

I spend time making skin, for instance, it takes from 10 to 20 hours from my experience to make a skin, not to mention research. That's just 1 skin! So imagine the time we spend, for free. Now someone is selling it to make money. comon. something's not right. It may be all kosher legally, but it's just not cool for the community that made these mods in the first place.

As someone said, this thing discourages from making mods. I keep all my mods released with big readme files, notes, etc, and still find 'f7ckers' releasing them under their own name, scum bags, may their sad lives be filled with joy. X1 surely has thought it would pass, but it's very easy to ignore a some forums. There will be people just going to store, buying SH3, and than - buying this Addon as 'recommendation' from salesman.

Idea of having BEST mods nicely packaged is great - but not like this.


Get agreements with Ubisoft, get the people who modded the game, pay them a tiny royalty (or ship them some free hardware or whatever), and do it right. Right now it looks like a bunch of dudes got together on an adventure and are looking to see how much than money they can sucker people out of. They don't seem to have the strength to do it the right way, so it's getting done like this. The fact that modding community in general rarely gets a deserved respect is all too magnified in this particular case.

Like I said - for 5 euros I'd buy it, but I'm not very happy that the people who actually MADE the mods are not seeing a penny from it. That's wrong.

Just my .02c

understood, agreed....BUT: AFAIK X1 has no good retail distribution chain, IMHO most potential sales could be online deals. So again: SPREAD THE WORD! SHOUT OUT!


And let UbiSoft Know that the whole issue p**ses off modders, which means a less attractive expansion pack or SH IV!

redstorm101
07-25-05, 08:20 PM
[quote="deathping---"]I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<Me again... just editin' away like I have nuthin' else to do>



This person is full of hate.........and I hope they will find a better way to deal with it............I feel sorry for this lost soul.....

redstorm101.....


:|\

KodiakPA
07-25-05, 08:31 PM
When the Avon Lady sees that message on the previous page it's gonna be like WW3 broke out and I don't want to be anywhere near the surface

Same thing I thought.

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 08:34 PM
Type941, Good post and with the right attitude that expresses real concerns and reason all in one.

A whole package allowing the common non DLer to enjoy the things we do is not a bad idea. But, I agree that they did not approach this right and what their motives and methods were have yet top be fairly judged.

I hope they can come clean and make a general policy to get agreements or remove any mod they can not get agreements with. Then the mob can go home and get a good nights rest and be ready for their next patrol.

I, BTW, was never calling anyone a Nazi or KKK. I was referring to the fact many good people have been led to believe a mob mentality allowed a less than correct response to things presented to them allowing them to act in a manner less befitting their usual decent behavior. That is how Kristalnacht and Cross burnings take place, by getting usually reasonable people to act in uncommonly unreasonable ways.
That is how many reasonable people have appeared in many postings and that was more troubling to me regarding the community’s heath and future than X-1.

Wulfmann

CCIP
07-25-05, 08:35 PM
And CCIP appears to have been promoted to "moderator"

He is here often enough, that's for sure..

Wonder what his first use of his new "magic" powers might be..

Haha, only in the closed mod forum :shifty:


I'll gladly volunteer for anything else though, I mean I'm certainly here often enough *wink wink Onkel Neal* :know:

terrapin
07-25-05, 08:37 PM
Type941, Good post and with the right attitude that expresses real concerns and reason all in one.

A whole package allowing the common non DLer to enjoy the things we do is not a bad idea. But, I agree that they did not approach this right and what their motives and methods were have yet top be fairly judged.

I hope they can come clean and make a general policy to get agreements or remove any mod they can not get agreements with. Then the mob can go home and get a good nights rest and be ready for their next patrol.

I, BTW, was never calling anyone a Nazi or KKK. I was referring to the fact many good people have been led to believe a mob mentality allowed a less than correct response to things presented to them allowing them to act in a manner less befitting their usual decent behavior. That is how Kristalnacht and Cross burnings take place, by getting usually reasonable people to act in uncommonly unreasonable ways.
That is how many reasonable people have appeared in many postings and that was more troubling to me regarding the community’s heath and future than X-1.

Wulfmann


Thanks for caring. IMHO the community is perfectly healthy - and will have without any doubt a great future WITHOUT the 'help' of X1...

Duncan Idaho
07-25-05, 08:38 PM
Please ask people to stop acting like KKK or Nazis!!! LOL. Sorry, I could not resist:rotfl: Just kidding!!!

I am not on any side and it would be with the mod makers if I had to choose. But, all one has to do is look through this thread at all the new ban X-1 signatures to see the frenzied mob mentality. If you wish to justify it, that is your choice, I am trying to let some alarmist know just what they appear to be acting like. If it acts like a duck..........

Wulfmann

Problem is, dude, you are speaking without regard for facts we have learned. You've been told several times to go read other posts on the subject, where you will find hard PROOF of what X1 has done. You, instead, continue your rant without examining the evidence.

You, sir, are a troll, by definition.

You can fix it by reading the other Seewolves/X1 topics here, and learning the truth. Or, you can make us suspect, (as I do), your involvement in X1 itself as a partner. Either way works, just depends on who's side you're REALLY on.

Observer
07-25-05, 09:05 PM
Just for clarity (at page 5 LOL!) since my readme is in post #1 of this thread I state the following unequivocally:

I have NEVER been contacted via any method by any representative of X1 Software.

Dagger U-539
07-25-05, 09:12 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<DAMN... I really thought I was done...>



Todays word is- TROLL. :roll: change of name but same song and dance. We all know who this is.so those that "found"your mod package can GIVE it away and you won't say anything..correct?

Onkel Neal
07-25-05, 09:14 PM
I see an israeli in the grass. :down:

That's not allowed here, mate. You disagree with someone, counter their arguement. Don't start pulling politics into it.

Observer
07-25-05, 09:15 PM
I wonder how Matrix Games would react to the news the "expansion" (I use that term very loosely) they were providing distribution for was based on the work and effort of others not being reimbursed (or consulted) for their labor?

Take away the distribution channel, and "Seewolves" becomes just so many useless coasters.

kiwi_2005
07-25-05, 09:18 PM
This is outrageous! can't the modders sue XI? or ubisoft should be making a stand, did they agree to this XI addon? they should be supporting the modders and say nope, no way.

Maybe Subsim should do a deal with the modders and get together a cd like they did with SH2 add all the mods to the cd and sell for a small price. Maybe call it The REAL Seawolfs expansion. That'll really piss of XI and I for one would buy a cd coming from Subsim providing the modders agreed with the sale.

:hulk:

kiwi_2005
07-25-05, 09:28 PM
This is the same as if microsoft made a dozen updates put them on there website for free to dl and i came along copied them all to a cd packaged it in a nice box and called it the WindowsXP expanison ultilities pack then put a price tag on it. Microsoft would sue the pants of me.

X1 are pirates.

Unbelievable! I gotta go and sink something.

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 09:29 PM
[quote=
You, sir, are a troll, by definition.
[/quote]

Well, since I have repeatedly stated I have nothing to do with X-1 but desire to stop a KKK style lynching while also stated I would gladly vote the ban once the "evidence" is in..
You insist a fair representation of facts, but that should be not as you see them but as someone, like myself, that has no side but the desire for a healthy SH3 community and wants to let this work out without a cross burning mentality that you continue to propose.
I am not on the X-1 side and would be on the modder’s side if the facts warrant it

I assume you are unaware of what a troll is as this does not fit the definition. Unless a troll is anyone that has a different opinion than yours.

Real mature!

I have asked for everyone to note I have nothing to do with X-1 so I guess you have not taken your own advise and read my post.
So, for the rest that did not understand like this challenged person and any others with an IQ less than the number of fingers on one hand, how many times would you like me to say it?
I have never had anything to do with X-1 or anyone associated with it. I have not contributed to it and have nothing but the one email when I blatantly asked what they were doing and I posted that reply. I did that in the hopes it would open a dialogue that could resolve this. Apparently many want a big confrontation and not resolution?

I must also ask those that modify UBIsoft copyright material to not place your mod in the position of you exclusive property. While I believe you deserve credit for your efforts, I do not believe you have created a unique product that demands compensation unless you understand that compensation would belong, legally to UBIsoft

As long as I can be called a troll for not joining something not unlike a Nazi minded mob mentality (you see the Nazis insisted you conform to their ways, which is exactly what this small minded person suggest) and I suggest the facts be presented in its entirety so we can all make a rational decision, than I have a right to defend myself from cowardly clique attacks.

BTW, Dunceman, I have spent three years and thousands of hours making thousand of files as freeware and have turned down joining a few payware projects in CFS3. Please enlighten all here on you contribution to any mod community.

T, the SH3 community would indeed be fine without X-1. It will not be fine with a negative suspicious attitude that does not encourage free exchange. I have before this suggested ways to prevent exactly this and was dismissed as if we have no such concerns here.
Turns out, that was not correct. But that is Monday morning quarterbacking, hey!

Wulfmann

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 09:39 PM
Actually, KIWI, that is a great idea.

To channel all this hostility to something positive, how about a CD package that can be distributed as donation ware with the funds supporting the site cost for this and the U-Boat Realsim site? That would offer an installed package of all the favorite mods help the sites that support the community and prevent any unauthorized payware form being able to compete and have to offer what they produce or procure themselves.

If anyone can arrange these mods with a self installer and the price would reflect the actual operating cost of the product and the band width of the sites, there would be no actual profit.

That really is worth pursuing.
Is any one here willing to take some action that will advance your cause in a positive way or is everyone here still bent on a lynching?

Wulfmann

gonzman
07-25-05, 09:51 PM
I'd just like to mention that calling people KKK or Nazi like does so little towards your end of the argument and just makes you look desperate enough to insult, same goes for everybody.

Syxx_Killer
07-25-05, 09:51 PM
This "deathping" (OSSI?) fellow is making his rounds on the UBI forums, too. :nope: :nope: :x :x

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9021027043/p/2

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9931037933/p/3

Hawkers
07-25-05, 09:54 PM
To channel all this hostility to something positive, how about a CD package that can be distributed as donation ware with the funds supporting the site cost for this and the U-Boat Realsim site? That would offer an installed package of all the favorite mods help the sites that support the community and prevent any unauthorized payware form being able to compete and have to offer what they produce or procure themselves.

If anyone can arrange these mods with a self installer and the price would reflect the actual operating cost of the product and the band width of the sites, there would be no actual profit.

That really is worth pursuing.


My question: how many people in the community would buy such a CD?

Hawkers :up:

Syxx_Killer
07-25-05, 10:00 PM
Now this was low... :hulk: :hulk: :hulk: :hulk: :hulk: :hulk:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/4161043143

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 10:02 PM
[/quote]My question: how many people in the community would buy such a CD?Hawkers :up:[/quote]

That says it all, LOL All this complaining that someone is going to cash in on the efforts of the poor down trodden modders but when a suggestion to make the same thing comes up that is the reponse.? Classic!!!

Am I alone in seeing this as a bit funny but pathetic.

Gons, when pople act like a lunitic mob, noting it should not be the problem, it taking place should be.

Syxx, you are becoming paranoid!!! Lighten up Francis!!!

Wulfmann

Zepheron
07-25-05, 10:02 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<You wanna know the really annoying part of being a Moderator? This person posts his nonsense once... and then everyone else reposts it 15 more times. Geeze... what a way to spend your Birthday!>



Oh boy....would not wanna be in this guys shoes...Hell hath no furry like a womans scorn.

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 10:07 PM
Now this was low... :hulk: :hulk: :hulk: :hulk: :hulk: :hulk:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/4161043143

That crack to Avon Lady was below low. I take offense at that and will be there in a minute handen out a little woop ass

Wulfmann

Syxx_Killer
07-25-05, 10:09 PM
Syxx, you are becoming paranoid!!! Lighten up Francis!!!

Paranoid? Of what? http://www.countingcows.de/hmm.gif http://img62.exs.cx/img62/2879/silly30gn.gif

Btw, my name's not Francis. :rotfl:

Duke of Earl
07-25-05, 10:18 PM
I've seen some putrid posts before, but that one... Mr. deathping... gets the blue ribbon for being a true garbage dump in the middle of July... delete and publicly apologize immediately...

Cordialement, Duke of Earl

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 10:20 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=857101043&m=4161043143&r=3121053143#3121053143

Note my response to that Nazi like attitude (I dare anyone to argue with that)

Syxx, just fooling with ya. Remember Stripes in the barracks and the crazy guy kept telling everyone, "If any of you Homos touch my stuff, I'll kill ya" and the sergeant said "Lighten up Francis" I always loved that line and use it as a joke.

Wulfmann

Jace11
07-25-05, 10:24 PM
DO they really need a rascist bigot defending them...

I mean could things get any worse.

I checked and deathping is definately GERMAN and definately loves "X1" so it could be Ossi but I can't say for certain.

Yup, Wulfmann can't argue there..

KodiakPA
07-25-05, 10:34 PM
:nope: Completely uncalled for.
Avon Lady deserves an apology! :stare:
Even if this guy isn't Ossi he is pulling the same childish tricks. Next thing you know deathping--- will start deleting his posts too.

Abraham
07-25-05, 10:36 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, Truly , most of your stuff doesn't really work together in a unified package. And do you have permission to use Das Boot material whether distributed for free or not?? I don't think you do. I think you all are bitter because someone is coming along with a bit more drive than you all to put together a package of UBI quality parts thay you all had the privilege of altering a bit. YOU DON'T OWN ANY OF IT!! I know you think you do.... but you don't. So stop crying and whining and hissing and pissing about it and grow up. All they have to do is change you precious smoke mod or whatever the hell you came up with from, mind you, UBI-copyrighted material, a little bit and its now theirs. TOUGH TAMALES! I hope they sell a million copies.

<Edit again and again and again...>



Although I have not taken part in the discussion up till now I have followed it with interest.
Things got a little bit spiced up when words like "thief" end "pirate" were exchanged for "KKK" and "Kristalnacht". I even read about boxcars going to Poland...
But Deathping really beats it. Not once, but again at the UBI-forum...
The only funny thing is that in his angerAnd the guy or whatever with the israeli flag...The choice is rather simple: male or female.
The nickname "The Avon Lady" strongly suggests a choice for the latter.
:D
About the only (and no doubt unintended) funny element of Deathping's posting.
As for me I hope this first posting was his death ping on this site...

Wulfmann
07-25-05, 10:46 PM
Abraham said "As for me I hope this first posting was his death ping on this site..."

As for me I would hope both sites.

Wulfmann

Jace11
07-25-05, 11:13 PM
I found this new one, I think its quite fetching..

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7658/bgtop27ee.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

kiwi_2005
07-25-05, 11:16 PM
What is so wrong about a israeli flag??? I actually went to view it. staring at the flag for a good minute... Nope no anger whatsoever. Deathping am i missing something? :rock:

Gunfighter34
07-25-05, 11:20 PM
Everything else aside, and it seems fairly solid that much of the Seawolves content is pirated, I wouldn't buy a mod pack from this OSSI/Deathping guy because he's simply an idiot. What kind of "businessman" markets his product by harrassing his potential customers?

I think the best course of action is to just ignore the guy and he'll go away.

jasonb885
07-25-05, 11:30 PM
Everything else aside, and it seems fairly solid that much of the Seawolves content is pirated, I wouldn't buy a mod pack from this OSSI/Deathping guy because he's simply an idiot. What kind of "businessman" markets his product by harrassing his potential customers?

I think the best course of action is to just ignore the guy and he'll go away.

Probably.

At least no one here will buy, which is my only real concern.

Best anyone can do is ensure people have an opportunity to be educated on the situation.

Someone should really collect this lamers posts. It would make a funny archive of nonsense to post about whenever someone mentions X1.

:up:

The Avon Lady
07-26-05, 12:11 AM
Oh my! :88)

Hawkers
07-26-05, 12:13 AM
That says it all, LOL All this complaining that someone is going to cash in on the efforts of the poor down trodden modders but when a suggestion to make the same thing comes up that is the reponse.? Classic!!!


Wullfman - I don't know what your problem is, but my question was just that: a simple question, with no dig or criticism intended.

My point is that while such a CD has good intentions(to raise money for modders), how many people will actually buy, when all these mods are downloadable from this and other sites and have already been acquired by many people anyway?

Sir - I meant no offence by my question, and would appreciate a reasonable response.

You have complained of a 'mob mentality' on this forum - but now you are the one being unreasonable.

Hawkers :cry:

Hawkers
07-26-05, 01:16 AM
Am I alone in seeing this as a bit funny but pathetic?



Yes, you are.


Hawkers :D

Salvadoreno
07-26-05, 01:59 AM
i do agree with some that the modded material does not belong to YOU. It is a product of UBI and without UBI you couldnt do it, making a addon with some new features and some possible features "close" to that of mod makers doesnt quite mean their stealing. even though that is up to discussion. But i mean, im looking foward to the addon and will probably definately buy it. Counter-Strike started out a mod then became its own stand-alone product that you can buy. Though the situation is a bit different i know, i still think some should calm down. People have the same ideas sometimes, and whoever gets it out their first, well, they get credit. You modders are great, SH3 isnt SH3 without you but before u rant and rave lets wait for some more info to come out. I havent seen any previews of features on IGN etc.. So i really dont know what it contains, unless you guys have seen that, i dont think you should complain much, and if you have seen it. Please give me a preview link!!!

jumpy
07-26-05, 03:31 AM
I've been following this (and other related) threads for the last couple of days and it seems to me that selling something that is free and without the permision/recognition of those who contributed to the creation of mods to enhance a great game is just tight-fisted and shifty online-pikeyness- I wonder, will X1 Software be coming round offering to tarmack my driveway anytime soon? :rotfl:
I don't usually visit the Ubi fora, prefering instead our very own dear subsim.com for reasons (I think you'll agree) that to most will be abundantly clear. Having read some of the slagging going on 'over there' and the improper comments directed in a personal manner towards some of our members here, it is clear that some kind of 'signature solidarity' is called for :)
To that end I applaud Jace11 and his discovery of a "rather fetching" banner and show my tacit support for this issue.

Duncan Idaho
07-26-05, 04:50 AM
To that end I applaud Jace11 and his discovery of a "rather fetching" banner and show my tacit support for this issue.

Welcome to the 'Mob'. :lol:

joea
07-26-05, 05:07 AM
i do agree with some that the modded material does not belong to YOU. It is a product of UBI and without UBI you couldnt do it, making a addon with some new features and some possible features "close" to that of mod makers doesnt quite mean their stealing. even though that is up to discussion. But i mean, im looking foward to the addon and will probably definately buy it. Counter-Strike started out a mod then became its own stand-alone product that you can buy. Though the situation is a bit different i know, i still think some should calm down. People have the same ideas sometimes, and whoever gets it out their first, well, they get credit. You modders are great, SH3 isnt SH3 without you but before u rant and rave lets wait for some more info to come out. I havent seen any previews of features on IGN etc.. So i really dont know what it contains, unless you guys have seen that, i dont think you should complain much, and if you have seen it. Please give me a preview link!!!

Jeezus some folks have looked into it (got uhh a copy) and it has at least 11 if not more mods that were taken without authorisation? What's the matter with you?

BTW deathping I know from UBI..http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8501028033/r/7061020233#7061020233

We don't need such trash here.

XabbaRus
07-26-05, 05:57 AM
have u noticed his forum has been removed from his site?

lifer
07-26-05, 06:10 AM
I think it's sad what X1 is not only doing to SH3 but to this community as well. This used to be such a "quiet and friendly" place but now people start insulting each other. :down:

Relax everybody. Just don't buy Seawolves and spread the word. But don't let this addon 'destroy' our community. :dead:

terrapin
07-26-05, 06:17 AM
I think it's sad what X1 is not only doing to SH3 but to this community as well. This used to be such a "quiet and friendly" place but now people start insulting each other. :down:

Relax everybody. Just don't buy Seawolves and spread the word. But don't let this addon 'destroy' our community. :dead:

IMHO this community is too strong to be destroyed by the 'Seewolves Mod Scam' - there are much more interesting things coming up than a commercial repack of things freely available... :D

Abraham
07-26-05, 07:11 AM
This community is certainly too strong to be destructed by an Experimental Mk. 1...
The Avon Lady and her people were insulted by Deathping, but see how disinguished her reaction was (and she has won fame as a figter on the General Forum).Oh my! :88)
All who shouted Dive... dive... dive... can blow their tanks.
:D

Shadow9216
07-26-05, 07:26 AM
Okay folks. Can't we all just get along? :P

Wulfmann, I tried to respond to you last night but my modem failed so I went to bed. I wanted to thank you for your rational response to my post. It shows you are not only capable of dispassionate discussion (although I never doubted that), but that you are willing to engage in such a dialogue.

It's interesting that you have a quote from undoubtedly one of the most heated debates in history in your sig block. I'd like to ask all parties to this debate to pause for a moment and think about how we're handling ourselves in this debate.

If I may, let me summarize a few of the key issues:

1) It is alleged that X1 appropriated derivative works for commercial gain without prior approval
2) A grass-roots movement calling for a ban on X1 has been called for, prior to any "official" pronouncement of guilt
3) Proponents and opponents of the ban are at an impasse, and the situation has turned ugly

As to the first contention:
There are at least 3 mods whose origination can be identified/attributed, especially as they are included as stand-alone "options" (ie not an inherent part of the "new" mod)

a) Map Contact
b) Bearing Overlay
c) Plotting Tool

The modders in question are Pato, Observer and (IIRC) Cloudbait.

I submit that if X1 and/or any of these gentlemen (ladies?) were respond that they have/gave permission to use these works, then the claim of theft would be disproven. Contrarily, if X1 is unable/unwilling to provide such evidence AND any of the modders in question responds that they did NOT give such permission, then the claim of misappropriation would stand. Note that I say "AND"- X1's silence can not be used against them. At this point, although I do not believe they are innocent, I wouldn't blame them for refusing to comment- they may even be barred from comment due to legal proceedings. At any rate, the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution provides the right to avoid self-incrimination ("You have the right to remain silent"). Silence in this case may not be inferred to indicate guilt. As I am an American, I will afford X1 this protection.

(As an aside, I did see Observer post that he did not give permission. That's one of the three.)

Now to the 2nd contention, the proposed ban on X1 products. This has provoked much controversy. Is such a ban appropriate? Is it legal? Is it ethical?

If contention #1, misappropriation of works, is proven then some response is suitable- in this case, a refusal to purchase the material would be about the ONLY avenue open to the general community. Therefore the ban in and of itself appears to be an acceptable result.

The timing, though, seems to be the linchpin to the debate (note, I didn't spell it "lynchpin"). Wulfmann indicates he is willing to join the ban WHEN it has been proven to his satisfaction that contention 1 is true. Wulfmann, I would ask you to supply the criteria under which this may occur.

Let the record show I am NOT in the employ of X1, nor am I working for Wulfmann. I would like to see this forum return to the cohesive unit it once was. Wulfmann is afraid of a "mob mentality", so I'm trying to impose some order and establish guidelines for rational discourse- please excuse my presumption.

Finally, contention #3, the impasse. Wulfmann's seeming intransigence has provoked some into claiming he works for "the enemy". He in turn has resorted to some unpleasant labelling. Each side is fulfilling the worst fears of the other, and now we are joined by Deathping, who may or may not in fact be X1.

Can we agree that, this debate aside, Wulfmann has been a positive member of this community? That he has contributed on several occasions? If so, then let's back off a little bit. Wulfmann, I ask you, too, to throttle back a little and remind us that you are a part of the team that is the Subsim forum and the SH3 community.

Folks, this is the first online forum I've been a member of. It's been great, I love the experience. Let's remember the common ground that brought us all together and use that to determine our course. Let's not let emotion and passion fragment us, and turn us against one another.

Apologies to all for another long-winded post. Hopefully you're all too exhausted from reading it to continue fighting. :lol:

terrapin
07-26-05, 07:42 AM
Okay folks. Can't we all just get along? :P

Wulfmann, I tried to respond to you last night but my modem failed so I went to bed. I wanted to thank you for your rational response to my post. It shows you are not only capable of dispassionate discussion (although I never doubted that), but that you are willing to engage in such a dialogue.

It's interesting that you have a quote from undoubtedly one of the most heated debates in history in your sig block. I'd like to ask all parties to this debate to pause for a moment and think about how we're handling ourselves in this debate.

If I may, let me summarize a few of the key issues:

1) It is alleged that X1 appropriated derivative works for commercial gain without prior approval
2) A grass-roots movement calling for a ban on X1 has been called for, prior to any "official" pronouncement of guilt
3) Proponents and opponents of the ban are at an impasse, and the situation has turned ugly

As to the first contention:
There are at least 3 mods whose origination can be identified/attributed, especially as they are included as stand-alone "options" (ie not an inherent part of the "new" mod)

a) Map Contact
b) Bearing Overlay
c) Plotting Tool

The modders in question are Pato, Observer and (IIRC) Cloudbait.

I submit that if X1 and/or any of these gentlemen (ladies?) were respond that they have/gave permission to use these works, then the claim of theft would be disproven. Contrarily, if X1 is unable/unwilling to provide such evidence AND any of the modders in question responds that they did NOT give such permission, then the claim of misappropriation would stand. Note that I say "AND"- X1's silence can not be used against them. At this point, although I do not believe they are innocent, I wouldn't blame them for refusing to comment- they may even be barred from comment due to legal proceedings. At any rate, the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution provides the right to avoid self-incrimination ("You have the right to remain silent"). Silence in this case may not be inferred to indicate guilt. As I am an American, I will afford X1 this protection.

(As an aside, I did see Observer post that he did not give permission. That's one of the three.)

Now to the 2nd contention, the proposed ban on X1 products. This has provoked much controversy. Is such a ban appropriate? Is it legal? Is it ethical?

If contention #1, misappropriation of works, is proven then some response is suitable- in this case, a refusal to purchase the material would be about the ONLY avenue open to the general community. Therefore the ban in and of itself appears to be an acceptable result.

The timing, though, seems to be the linchpin to the debate (note, I didn't spell it "lynchpin"). Wulfmann indicates he is willing to join the ban WHEN it has been proven to his satisfaction that contention 1 is true. Wulfmann, I would ask you to supply the criteria under which this may occur.

Let the record show I am NOT in the employ of X1, nor am I working for Wulfmann. I would like to see this forum return to the cohesive unit it once was. Wulfmann is afraid of a "mob mentality", so I'm trying to impose some order and establish guidelines for rational discourse- please excuse my presumption.

Finally, contention #3, the impasse. Wulfmann's seeming intransigence has provoked some into claiming he works for "the enemy". He in turn has resorted to some unpleasant labelling. Each side is fulfilling the worst fears of the other, and now we are joined by Deathping, who may or may not in fact be X1.

Can we agree that, this debate aside, Wulfmann has been a positive member of this community? That he has contributed on several occasions? If so, then let's back off a little bit. Wulfmann, I ask you, too, to throttle back a little and remind us that you are a part of the team that is the Subsim forum and the SH3 community.

Folks, this is the first online forum I've been a member of. It's been great, I love the experience. Let's remember the common ground that brought us all together and use that to determine our course. Let's not let emotion and passion fragment us, and turn us against one another.

Apologies to all for another long-winded post. Hopefully you're all too exhausted from reading it to continue fighting. :lol:

I'm not exhausted..thanks for your post. Let me add a few comments though.

Not three, but eleven unauthorized mod inclusions have been detected so far. And the list (discussions and evaluation is going on at places you may not have access to...I don't know) is getting longer almost any minute.


I understand that you (me too..) would like to have a 'better' online world. But this is a discussion forum and there are things that have to be discussed - at least a lot of people think so...

And AFAIK the 'Seawolves' issue currently has not been solved yet. The only fair solution X1 could come up with would be to release only their proprietary work (which would easily fit on a floppy...) and to apologize publically.

From all public and - the more - private conversations and disputes with X1's owner and folks afiliated with X1 I doubt his will ever happen.

If I'd publish all private BS that was sent to me by X1 the last days everyone would understand easily that the ONLY goal of his company is to make a fast buck...: Nothing but disrespect for the gamers, modders and this community was shown by them, and the personal insults in their mails are simply...disgusting.

Shadow9216
07-26-05, 07:55 AM
Not three, but eleven unauthorized mod inclusions have been detected so far. And the list (discussions and evaluation is going on at places you may not have access to...I don't know) is getting longer almost any minute.


I only listed the 3 that I could remember off the top of my head- I'm at work right now- but I figured 3 was more than enough to prove the case. Frankly even one example is enough.

I understand that you (me too..) would like to have a 'better' online world. But this is a discussion forum and there are things that have to be discussed - at least a lot of people think so...


Agree with you 100%, and this MUST be discussed- but the discussion was starting to drift from the main point, which is X1's (apparent) theft of others' work. My post was an attempt to remind everyone who our anger should be directed toward.

X1's attitude has been manifested clearly. It is arrogant and offensive to say the least. If I tried to offer up Shadow's Ultimate Pack, containing New and Improved Convoys, a Real U-Boat, and all new Harbor Traffic, you all would rightfully hound me out into the streets. But this is why I tried to defuse the situation which was starting to arise...especially with Deathping's additions. Once the flame wars start, the focus will shift away from the main issues.

I wanted to clarify what exactly we're arguing for/against here. It's not a case of "us" and "them", it's what will happen to X1 as a result of their actions.

Hopefully no one thought I was attempting to censor the debate, or inhibit anyone's freedom of expression; it would be of great benefit to X1 and/or like-minded individuals for us to lose focus and cohesion due to a degeneration into personal attacks.

Abraham
07-26-05, 08:19 AM
Thanks Shadow9216 for your wise postings.
I have no issues with Wulfmann nor should anyone. Wulfmann have defended his position - which is his right - and is not the cause of the chaos.
You stated "Now we are joined by Deathping..."
I do not agree. First of all this community cannot be joined by Deathping because his statements are unworthy to this community.
Secondly I have the idea that his posting was a "One ping only!" ("The Hunt for Red October" in case I am misunderstood) and that he will not even try to join us anymore.
As so often in sub(sim) warfare: don't use your active sonar!
The solidarity and restrained shown by all who took part in this discussion, including Wulfmann and The Avon Lady, has made the community stronger and the topic easier to discuss.
We may not all be good friends, we may not all agree, but we are certainly a community.
Arguments belong at the General Forum (where I'm heading now).
:D

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 09:32 AM
9216, you would certainly be tough in a court room, LOL In a good way!!

Fact, I don't argue with my enemies. I only passionately debate my friends, physical or virtual. I don't like seeing my friends getting carried away in a negative situation, at least before actual facts have been established.

I am still not convinced X-1 intentionally tried to steal and hide that they were doing such to gain monetarily. It makes no logical sense. It would discredit them to the point of no gain to loss and hurt any chance of future involvement.

It is also possible they were ignorant to assume they could package this stuff up and offer to the masses that are not install savvy. Anyone that believes most user are able to figure out modding should note how many of us have trouble, "Sie Experten".. It is not a bad idea but they obviously erred in their approach. That is trying to diplomatically give them the benefit of the doubt until it is proven they acted with malice intent.

Please note my labels of fanatical mob mentality. That is what it looks like. That does not mean I think anyone here is a Nazi or member of the KKK. Many decent people were incited to do the work of these groups by inflamed rhetoric. Many have become those decent people. Proof???? I asked for proof and was promptly labeled one of them there enemy people, ya, he must be one of them, Get Wulfmann, LOL It really is kind of funny to me!!!!

I must now break my thought and step out side. Will finish this as I am half posting.

It is 10.32 and T- minus 7 minutes. I normally would not step outside for a launch, but this one is special.

Be back in a few minutes.

Wulfmann

The Avon Lady
07-26-05, 10:00 AM
I am still not convinced X-1 intentionally tried to steal and hide that they were doing such to gain monetarily. It makes no logical sense. It would discredit them to the point of no gain to loss and hurt any chance of future involvement.
The word is "amateurs". :yep: Possibly "shysters" is appropriate as well.
It is 10.32 and T- minus 7 minutes. I normally would not step outside for a launch, but this one is special.
All's well, TG! :up:

We're all watching live over the Net, while the spaghetti boils. :D

Abraham
07-26-05, 10:19 AM
...I must now break my thought and step out side. Will finish this as I am half posting.
It is 10.32 and T- minus 7 minutes. I normally would not step outside for a launch, but this one is special.
Be back in a few minutes.
Wulfmann
You can actually see a launch from where you are???!!!

The Avon Lady
07-26-05, 10:23 AM
...I must now break my thought and step out side. Will finish this as I am half posting.
It is 10.32 and T- minus 7 minutes. I normally would not step outside for a launch, but this one is special.
Be back in a few minutes.
Wulfmann
You can actually see a launch from where you are???!!!
Obviously surfaced somewhere off the Florida coast.
:lurk:

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 10:38 AM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/Disc-1.jpg


The view from my house. Not like when I briefly worked there and was very close so I had to look straight up when it went, but this was an important flight for us all..

I have sent my second email to X-1 and have asked for some explanations and made some suggestions. I will post anything or the lack of it when I receive a response.
Rather than post my request as a challenge, I will allow X-1 to say what ever they feel and hope they not only are aware of this degraded situation but in hopes they have resolved any permission problems.

Hawker, I went to bed before your response and just now saw your request.
My point was that while many are outraged that X-1 will sell this (reportedly for $25.00 Euros) and they will make big bucks at the expense of many freeware modders but then you state doubts that anyone would buy a donation ware product for maybe $5-7.00. Can you not see that if no one would want it for a small amount, there is no reason at all to think others would pay five times that. That is what I find funny, it would negate any reason for any concern of the entire subject!!!
From other projects I can tell you there are 5-10-50 lookers that do not participate in these forums. I include my email on freeware and have often helped people with installs that have never posted on a forum.
There would be many people that would love to have a mod package with a self installer that will never attempt a download or mod. Put in the CD, click install and turn on the game. More, many more, are like that than will mod.

UboatRealsim is apparently unwilling to post the number of time mods have been downloaded where most sights list the number. I again ask they do so to better inform us as to the comparison with the number of buyers of SH3 and those that mod it.
I think most would find a self installed mod package would be well recived, particularly at a reasonable price of $10.00 or less.

For me, I like the building it up myself as many here do so it is not for me. But it is naive to assume anyone sees things like the next guy.

Wulfmann

Catfish
07-26-05, 10:53 AM
Hello,
while i'm really positively astonished how balanced in a way all the people react and behave i still like to know what a "shyster" is ;) ??

I will not apologize for this sorry fellow-countryman "Deathping", or Trombke guy, neither will i feel ashamed - but i was close :-? . Did not know before that the Israelian flag is "antigermitic" - sounds like a skin disease :lol: . And then he wonders what a "jewish person" does with a german sub simulator ?! I wonder whether there are two directors of X1, one alone can't be that ... err, ok.

Greetings,
Catfish

Seminole
07-26-05, 10:58 AM
I just read through all the posts and I have to say it is a tempest in a teacup.

If the release is only a collection of stolen mods then it will be a flop. Most of the SHIII players are here and are informed. They simply will not order.

On the other hand the release may contain something I/we will want.

I plan on waiting to learn what develops and see no need to get all upset and join a crusade at this point.

I have better things to do...like playing SHIII.

August
07-26-05, 11:01 AM
From Dictionary.com:

shy·ster n. Slang

An unethical, unscrupulous practitioner, especially of law.


[Probably alteration of German Scheisser, son of a b**ch, bastard, from scheissen, to defecate, from Middle High German schzen, from Old High German skzzan. See skei- in Indo-European Roots.]shyster·ism n.

Word History: Calling someone a shyster might be considered libellous; knowing its probable origin adds insult to injury. According to Gerald L. Cohen, a student of the word, shyster is derived from the German term scheisser, meaning literally “one who defecates,” from the verb scheissen, “to defecate,” with the English suffix -ster, “one who does,” substituted for the German suffix -er, meaning the same thing. Sheisser, which is chiefly a pejorative term, is the German equivalent of our English terms bastard and son of a b**ch. Sheisser is generally thought to have been borrowed directly into English as the word shicer, which, among other things, is an Australian English term for an unproductive mine or claim, a sense that is also recorded for the word shyster.

Catfish
07-26-05, 11:13 AM
Thanks August for the explanation :cool:
Greetings,
Catfish

Juju
07-26-05, 11:17 AM
deathping = Ossi = Steffen Trombke?

Nope, his English is indeed too good. I do have a very good idea who he is, though. He swears and rants in the exact same way as the guy (let's call him Mr. I-got-permission-from-Microsoft for now) who sent me hatemail a couple of months back.

Just a strong hunch, mind, can't prove it.
But if I, by some means *cough cough*, find this deathping's email or IP address to be the same as the ones I got here in front of me I'm gonna hang him out to dry...

jasonb885
07-26-05, 11:22 AM
deathping = Ossi = Steffen Trombke?

Nope, his English is indeed too good. I do have a very good idea who he is, though. He swears and rants in the exact same way as the guy (let's call him Mr. I-got-permission-from-Microsoft for now) who sent me hatemail a couple of months back.

Just a strong hunch, mind, can't prove it.
But if I, by some means *cough cough*, find this deathping's email or IP address to be the same as the ones I got here in front of me I'm gonna hang him out to dry...

Interesting.

There's no way I can directly assist you, but perhaps someone else here can.

;)

Jace11
07-26-05, 11:23 AM
Hey Juju, are there any of your mods in Seewolves?

KILL4SPORT
07-26-05, 11:32 AM
I wanted to upgrade a free Pacific mod for my SH2, but come to find out the mod wasn't free at all and required payment to subsim.

:hmm:

Juju
07-26-05, 11:37 AM
Hey Juju, are there any of your mods in Seewolves?

Not that I know of, but then I don't think I've seen the complete package yet...

Abraham
07-26-05, 11:54 AM
Hello,
while i'm really positively astonished how balanced in a way all the people react and behave i still like to know what a "shyster" is ;) ??
I will not apologize for this sorry fellow-countryman "Deathping", or Trombke guy, neither will i feel ashamed - but i was close :-? . Did not know before that the Israelian flag is "antigermitic" - sounds like a skin disease :lol: . And then he wonders what a "jewish person" does with a german sub simulator ?! I wonder whether there are two directors of X1, one alone can't be that ... err, ok.
Greetings,
Catfish
Hi Catfish,
Of course everybody behaves balanced and takes a stand against un-subsim.com-style postings. We're a decent community, you know, we only fight at the proper place, the General Topics Forum!
And don't feel ashamed for a countryman (if he is one).
We don't generalise at the SH III forum, only at the General Topics Forum!
:rotfl:

Abraham
07-26-05, 12:09 PM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/Disc-1.jpg


The view from my house...
"House" you say?
The Avon Lady and I were argueing whether you could view a launch through your scope or from you bridge...
Nice shot, anyway!
:D

GT182
07-26-05, 12:31 PM
Seeing Wulfmann has Florida listed under his avatar, I believe he could see the launch... as well as just about anyone else on the east coast of Florida could. And I'm willing to bet he lives south abit from the Kennedy Space Center, say Vero Beach area. BTW... nice picture of the launch Wulfie. :up:

Heck, I live in Northern NY and I can see the Space Station pass by overhead at night.

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 12:35 PM
I live in Palm Bay and am about 40miles from the launch by a bird's flight.
I am too lazy to drive closer and have seen them since the 1950s so will rarely walk out the door.
I hate it when they land at night.
They come in supersonic and the explosion can throw you out of bed, literally
I worked 3 launches in 1994 and was at the base for one that went up. Once you have been extremely close nothing compares and no outsider can get within about 5 miles of where I saw that one.
The coolest sight is the pad on launch day at night. Many spotlight are on the Shuttle and they converge into a single stream of light that goes past heaven into space like a giant laser beam. Very unreal looking.. Imagine that is the most impressive sight even compared to lift off how dramatic it must look.
But everything becomes old. I have no desire to travel anymore and write, after 911 I have a different sense of things and would rather mod sims than be in a airport line.
Well and debate insanity issues!! LOL
Wulfmann

Nico71
07-26-05, 01:17 PM
German Gamestar mag has postet 50 screenshots of the "addon"!

http://www.gamestar.de/news/pc-spiele/simulation/27069/

DreamWizard
07-26-05, 01:31 PM
We're all watching live over the Net, while the spaghetti boils. :D

Howdidja know I was eatin spaghetti? :know:

GT182
07-26-05, 02:12 PM
Wulfmann, I was there at the Cape in 1971 and didn't want to leave. LOL Great place to visit. Someday I hope to return and see how things have changed.

Nico, most of those screenshots are the same we can see now with the free mods we have at hand. Not much new except for the Resupply Uboat. I even think we can do that now as I have a mod for Resupply. Can't use it just yet as it has a conflict with another mod I have installed. Once I figure out which one is causing the conflict I hope to give it a try.

DedEye
07-26-05, 02:58 PM
I've read this entire thread and am quite concerned.

I know no one at X1 and have been reading posts here from subsim members for many years. Even though the announcement of this "expansion" initially piqued my interest, in my books X1 has a severe credibility issue at this point.

I find it very underhanded that anyone's work, done on their time and for the good of our community, is placed on a commercial product without their permission. I've seen companies attempt to practice this type of exploitation with combat flight sim mods as well.

I worry that this type of behaviour will lead people stop making or releasing mods, as one prior poster indicated he has. A sad day indeed :(

I put the onus on X1 (regardless of the legal procedural stuff ;)) to prove that my virtual buddies are wrong. So far the evidence shows, to me at least, they are not. I will therefore not consider purchasing any of their products until they can put my concerns to rest.

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 03:40 PM
I too await some clarification from X-1 but if it was my project I doubt I would engage until things cooled down a bit. Then, I would want to reassure all concerned of a major misunderstanding make sincere apologies for any and remove any mods that permission was not obtained. But, that is just my opinion.

I will say this about all the modders. The ones that have voiced concern, talented people and well respected, are still a small percentage and some of the other heavy hitters have yet to utter a word.
Does this not cause any interest, speculation?
Are they actively participating in the Seawolves project or given permission?
I don’t know but it seems odd we have not heard from the many modders at all.
Perhaps they too have the diplomacy to wait till things cool down.
I hope in fact we can all take a break from this and allow some behind the scenes communication to work this out in a manner that will satisfactorily resolve it, once and for all.

If not, we shall all meet for a rally in Nuremberg!!! LOL

Wulfmann

jasonb885
07-26-05, 04:28 PM
...
I will say this about all the modders. The ones that have voiced concern, talented people and well respected, are still a small percentage and some of the other heavy hitters have yet to utter a word.
Does this not cause any interest, speculation?
...
Wulfmann

Who hasn't spoken up?

As I modder I think X1 can stuff it.

:smug:

Some of us are just busy. You might notice I haven't had any updates for IC in a week. I've been, well, busy with other issues.

jlbcke
07-26-05, 04:42 PM
This is a tempest in a teapot. All these mods were published on the web without copyright restriction thus making them legally available for anyone to use as they choose including for profit.

If someone wants to protect their software from someone else using it for profit they need to invoke formal legal intellectual property protection before publishing it.

Morally, X1 should have acknowledged that these mods were not developed in-hourse (as someone reported they did). X1 should have been forthright in stating that this was a collection of previously published mods in the public domain.

SHIII users in general should be careful when talking about X1's morality. Why? SHIII is itself a game glorifying destroying ships, and murdering by drowning, and burning. That no people are depicted makes no difference: we all know the ships did not sail themselves.

I apologize to the SHIII community for sounding like a prude. I love the game and applaud its production. But the game itself does present questions that have plagued entertainment since before Aristotle wrote the Poetics i.e., entertainment is often about depicting violence.

Is it reasonable to chastise X1 morally when SHIII is itself morally questionable? I just raise the question.
[/url][/code][/b]

terrapin
07-26-05, 04:45 PM
If someone wants to protect their software from someone else using it for profit they need to invoke formal legal intellectual property protection before publishing it.

From a legal POV this is plain wrong.

Stymnus
07-26-05, 04:56 PM
This is a tempest in a teapot. All these mods were published on the web without copyright restriction thus making them legally available for anyone to use as they choose including for profit.

If someone wants to protect their software from someone else using it for profit they need to invoke formal legal intellectual property protection before publishing it.

Morally, X1 should have acknowledged that these mods were not developed in-hourse (as someone reported they did). X1 should have been forthright in stating that this was a collection of previously published mods in the public domain.


Those in copyright law who have been consulted on this have said the modders have a lot of legs (collectively) to stand on here.

I suppose that if someone took all the mods from the various places they are posted, posted them to their OWN web server with no such disclaimer, it would be fine and dandy for X1 or anyone else to take the mods and use them for their own purposes?

X1 is no less wrong for the modders showing a degree of trust in the community. I'd also be willing to bet at least one mod made it into the product that DID have such a disclaimer. Anyone?

SHIII users in general should be careful when talking about X1's morality. Why? SHIII is itself a game glorifying destroying ships, and murdering by drowning, and burning. That no people are depicted makes no difference: we all know the ships did not sail themselves.

I apologize to the SHIII community for sounding like a prude. I love the game and applaud its production. But the game itself does present questions that have plagued entertainment since before Aristotle wrote the Poetics i.e., entertainment is often about depicting violence.

Is it reasonable to chastise X1 morally when SHIII is itself morally questionable? I just raise the question.


It's a far way to go to say that what someone or some company does that is immoral, that is REAL, and affects those people IN this community, pales in comparison to a GAME about events that actually happened more than fifty years ago, don't you think?

To the Germans fighting in the U-boats, they were the good guys defending their homeland. Few were members of the Nazi party, and none I know of were involved in the 'final solution'. I'm sure that if many of them had actually survived the war, they'd have been as horrified as the allies were. Though admittedly, that's all speculation.

There are far more immoral things in the world going on TODAY that would eclipse anything we've discussed in this thread or anything related, but that doesn't make the topic any less worthy of discussion.

Gents, I'm with you. X1 should be ashamed, whether their actions are judged to be legal or no.

XabbaRus
07-26-05, 05:09 PM
Like I said earlier there is the EULA to consider concerning mods.

You mod a game and if it is using some of the original games coding then you are obliged not to sell it.

Take a look at SCX and Sub Command. We were allowed to mod the game fine, but if we tried to sell it in any way we would be in big trouble.

So in that way X1software are breaking several parts of the EULA.

See that is the beauty of companies allowing modding of their games/sims. If people start trying to sell the mods in any shape or form then they will lock down the programs making mods impossible and gamers at the mercy of whether new units or models will be added.

It is a shame this has happened as usually the mod community on this forum are level headed and have created some great stuff. Don't have SHIII but seen the work and it is great.

Also modders will stop modding.

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 05:11 PM
Something that baffles me more than anything is the fact the two threads on the X-1 add on are sticky post at the top of the UBI SH3 Forum. Most of these mods are in fact modifications of UBI copyrighted material and yet they are prominently displaying this unauthorized add on. Am I alone in finding that a bit strange?
Wulfmann

jasonb885
07-26-05, 05:28 PM
Something that baffles me more than anything is the fact the two threads on the X-1 add on are sticky post at the top of the UBI SH3 Forum. Most of these mods are in fact modifications of UBI copyrighted material and yet they are prominently displaying this unauthorized add on. Am I alone in finding that a bit strange?
Wulfmann

I can only suppose they're sticky to demonstrate the stuff is a scam, but there's no direct indication of why those threads are stick. I do find it strange, yes.

:hmm:

Seeadler
07-26-05, 05:31 PM
Am I alone in finding that a bit strange?

My own experiences told me that official representatives of Ubisoft find very rarely their way in their own forums after a game was released. The sticky threads are set by the moderators wich are users like you and me. Ubisoft employees come only down to the crowd, if they can announce a new patch or something else in that matter :arrgh!:

jasonb885
07-26-05, 05:33 PM
Who is this Deathping? He does not represent CombatPlanes or X1. I've done some work for CP on the expansion, primarily in testing. I talked to Leonard this morning and he says the optional mods have been removed, and they now have permission for all others included. They had to remove Serg's Type7 DD (he had ok'ed use in World Mod but took exception to commercial release). Here are the permissions they now have..

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks with additional work by NDigital
Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran
U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter
DD Fix by Jungman
Radiolog by Irishred
Resupply by SANSAL
Contact Mod by Fletcher

They added their own version of a skymod as well as new blackout views for periscope and UZO.

Oh.. and Nico's cities were removed, and his escorts deleted and replaced with new ones..


Anyone confirm this? (From Ubi forum sticky)

It would be rather trivial to 'borrow' someone's skymod and tweak the values slightly. That's shady. So is partially dumping Nico's work as a basis for new work. Shady it is.

MONOLITH
07-26-05, 05:36 PM
It's a shame to see all this going on. It's not uncommon with other games though. The popularity of SH3 is what finally brought this ugliness to the Subsim forums. I fought for years against mod theft in the Tom Clancy gaming community.

I can't believe some of the false information being passed around. People getting all worked up, making claims and threats, on total heresay and forum chatter.

Please take a moment to read my last post from the other thread....


forget what Monolith is saying,


I would think 'just completely disregard what this guy says' is a bit on the rude side Terrapin.

Look at my posts, I'd say I gave you a bit more respect than that.

Make the effort to give me the same.


And yes Pablo, that is what I am saying.

And like I said before, I have already done this with UBI. Not only with myself, but with several other major modders in the Ghost Recon community.

I am an administrator of a website dedicated to Tom Clancy games, Ghost Recon, Splinter Cell, Ravenshield.

All UBISOFT Games.

I have had several mods given attention in PC Gamer magazine. I have been interviewed by many high profile gaming websites and gaming affiliated magazines and organizations.

It's not like I just 'guessed' at all this.

If you make a modification of a copyrighted UBISOFT product, it belongs to UBISOFT.

You can disagree here on an internet forum all day long.

But tell me I'm wrong AFTER you've been to court, or dealt with UBI lawyers as I and my peers have.

Best of Luck to you all.

That was from this thread....
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=40446&start=200



The only person who seems to have a handle on the copyright concept is XabbaRus....

Like I said earlier there is the EULA to consider concerning mods.
You mod a game and if it is using some of the original games coding then you are obliged not to sell it.



As for this...

This is a tempest in a teapot. All these mods were published on the web without copyright restriction thus making them legally available for anyone to use as they choose including for profit.


Downloadable for private use, yes. "For Profit" is the part that's not allowed. UNLESS there is an agreement with Ubisoft to do so.


This next quote is the one of real interest....


Those in copyright law who have been consulted on this have said the modders have a lot of legs (collectively) to stand on here.


I believe it is completely unfair to give the hard working modders of the gaming world false information/hopes.

So, instead of just 'claiming it' let's please see some actual legal documentation, state or federal stautues, anything at all to demonstrate that a modder can sue for use of his mod that UBISOFT retains control of in the first place.

terrapin
07-26-05, 05:40 PM
It's a shame to see all this going on. It's not uncommon with other games though. The popularity of SH3 is what finally brought this ugliness to the Subsim forums. I fought for years against mod theft in the Tom Clancy gaming community.

I can't believe some of the false information being passed around. People getting all worked up, making claims and threats, on total heresay and forum chatter.

Please take a moment to read my last post from the other thread....


forget what Monolith is saying,


I would think 'just completely disregard what this guy says' is a bit on the rude side Terrapin.

Look at my posts, I'd say I gave you a bit more respect than that.

Make the effort to give me the same.


And yes Pablo, that is what I am saying.

And like I said before, I have already done this with UBI. Not only with myself, but with several other major modders in the Ghost Recon community.

I am an administrator of a website dedicated to Tom Clancy games, Ghost Recon, Splinter Cell, Ravenshield.

All UBISOFT Games.

I have had several mods given attention in PC Gamer magazine. I have been interviewed by many high profile gaming websites and gaming affiliated magazines and organizations.

It's not like I just 'guessed' at all this.

If you make a modification of a copyrighted UBISOFT product, it belongs to UBISOFT.

You can disagree here on an internet forum all day long.

But tell me I'm wrong AFTER you've been to court, or dealt with UBI lawyers as I and my peers have.

Best of Luck to you all.



The only person who seems to have a handle on the copyright concept is XabbaRus....

Like I said earlier there is the EULA to consider concerning mods.
You mod a game and if it is using some of the original games coding then you are obliged not to sell it.



As for this...

This is a tempest in a teapot. All these mods were published on the web without copyright restriction thus making them legally available for anyone to use as they choose including for profit.


Downloadable for private use, yes. "For Profit" is the part that's not allowed. UNLESS there is an agreement with Ubisoft to do so.


This next quote is the one of real interest....


Those in copyright law who have been consulted on this have said the modders have a lot of legs (collectively) to stand on here.


I believe it is completely unfair to give the hard working modders of the gaming world false information/hopes.

So, instead of just 'claiming it' let's please see some actual legal documentation, state or federal stautues, anything at all to demonstrate that a modder can sue for use of his mod that UBISOFT retains control of in the first place.

Not THIS discussion in THIS thread....

MONOLITH
07-26-05, 05:42 PM
Not THIS discussion in THIS thread....

That's how you answer that?

Is that why you ignored it in the other thread, hoping it would 'go away'?

You know, anyone can review the other conversation and see I was actually quite respectful to you.

But it seems that my simply disagreeing with you, along with my credible background experience on the issue, is enough to make you respond rather childishly. That's very telling, IMO.

My post is quite relevent, it's the same conversation.

I could completely remove my quote from the other thread, and it would all be relevent.

jlbcke
07-26-05, 05:42 PM
Terrapin has used this forum to advertise his site. Is that moral?
It's something to consider when thinking about his criticisms of X1.

I don't want to get involved in flame wars. I enjoy his sites but I also think that his using this forum to advertise his own site points out how much easier it is to reach an opinion about someone else's actions than your own.

To Stymus I say that the wrongs committed fifty years ago are as severe now as they were then. People at war always believe that God is on their side. I agree with you that U-Boat sailors thought they were doing the right thing as did their opponents who depth-charged them. That really isn't the issue.

I happen to agree with Homer and Arisotle that depiction of violence is often the essence of art in any form . It's just that many people do not agree and for those people SHIII is a morally questionable product for whom X1's possible impropriety is trivial.
I understand that modders do not feel the same way. It's all a question of POV.

jasonb885
07-26-05, 05:46 PM
...
This next quote is the one of real interest....


Those in copyright law who have been consulted on this have said the modders have a lot of legs (collectively) to stand on here.


I believe it is completely unfair to give the hard working modders of the gaming world false information/hopes.

So, instead of just 'claiming it' let's please see some actual legal documentation, state or federal stautues, anything at all to demonstrate that a modder can sue for use of his mod that UBISOFT retains control of in the first place.

In the U.S., anyway, suing people seems to be a national pasttime.

Truth of the matter is, legal leg or not, I'll give everyone here fifty bucks if a modder from the community actually shells out the cash for a lawyer and takes this company, which isn't even based in the U.S., to civil court.

It's just not going to happen.

The best anyone can do is spread the word, that X1 is a sleazy organization that's interested in duping you and taking your money. Truth is the weapon we must avail ourselves with.

Unless, of course, someone here is quite wealthy and really wants to invest some cash into some kind of murky legal entanglement.

Yeah, I thought not.

The bottom line is some modders from the community have been and will probably continue to be violated when this 'product' is released by X1 and some simmers, unaware of the truth, pay for a copy. I feel bad for both distinct groups of losers in this scenario, but tossing about legal talk isn't likely to change the situation. Unless Ubi feels the need to take legal action for some reason, I won't expect to find this case in the newspaper anytime soon.

Razman23
07-26-05, 05:48 PM
I can't wait to give my money to x1 for a quality addon like Seawoves, -----------------SNIP----------they sell a million copies.

<Oh crap... another one...>




TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL.

I like you, you remind me when I was young and stupid.

MONOLITH
07-26-05, 05:50 PM
Here, Terrapin, just for you.....

All of the following is strictly from this thread, and this conversation only.

Quoted items are from THIS thread.



The only person who seems to have a handle on the copyright concept is XabbaRus....

Like I said earlier there is the EULA to consider concerning mods.
You mod a game and if it is using some of the original games coding then you are obliged not to sell it.



As for this...

This is a tempest in a teapot. All these mods were published on the web without copyright restriction thus making them legally available for anyone to use as they choose including for profit.


Downloadable for private use, yes. "For Profit" is the part that's not allowed. UNLESS there is an agreement with Ubisoft to do so.


This next quote is the one of real interest....


Those in copyright law who have been consulted on this have said the modders have a lot of legs (collectively) to stand on here.


I believe it is completely unfair to give the hard working modders of the gaming world false information/hopes.

So, instead of just 'claiming it' let's please see some actual legal documentation, state or federal stautues, anything at all to demonstrate that a modder can sue for use of his mod that UBISOFT retains control of in the first place.

I would think everyone would be interested in seeing that.

And I'll add, stop using claims of legal capability in this matter as a way to boost your popularity. These modders should be told the truth. They will not be able to sue for anything, only UBISOFT would.

Razman23
07-26-05, 06:07 PM
Dammit! They also stoled my VII skin (http://www.hippieshop.com/mas_assets/thumb/16031.jpg)!!!!

terrapin
07-26-05, 06:14 PM
Here, Terrapin, just for you.....

All of the following is strictly from this thread, and this conversation only.

Quoted items are from THIS thread.



The only person who seems to have a handle on the copyright concept is XabbaRus....

Like I said earlier there is the EULA to consider concerning mods.
You mod a game and if it is using some of the original games coding then you are obliged not to sell it.



As for this...

This is a tempest in a teapot. All these mods were published on the web without copyright restriction thus making them legally available for anyone to use as they choose including for profit.


Downloadable for private use, yes. "For Profit" is the part that's not allowed. UNLESS there is an agreement with Ubisoft to do so.


This next quote is the one of real interest....


Those in copyright law who have been consulted on this have said the modders have a lot of legs (collectively) to stand on here.


I believe it is completely unfair to give the hard working modders of the gaming world false information/hopes.

So, instead of just 'claiming it' let's please see some actual legal documentation, state or federal stautues, anything at all to demonstrate that a modder can sue for use of his mod that UBISOFT retains control of in the first place.

I would think everyone would be interested in seeing that.

And I'll add, stop using claims of legal capability in this matter as a way to boost your popularity. These modders should be told the truth. They will not be able to sue for anything, only UBISOFT would.

Yes.

MONOLITH
07-26-05, 06:14 PM
And by the way, I did recieve a copy of the european version of the EULA from an associate of mine, a level designer that works for Ubi.

It contains the same clauses referring to modding rights as the US version.

terrapin
07-26-05, 06:16 PM
And by the way, I did recieve a copy of the european version of the EULA from an associate of mine, a level designer that works for Ubi.

It contains the same clauses referring to modding rights as the US version.


Rgr.

Nico71
07-26-05, 06:17 PM
And by the way, I did recieve a copy of the european version of the EULA from an associate of mine, a level designer that works for Ubi.

It contains the same clauses referring to modding rights as the US version.

And I told you that the EULA can't be enforced here!

My oh my! :damn:

terrapin
07-26-05, 06:18 PM
And by the way, I did recieve a copy of the european version of the EULA from an associate of mine, a level designer that works for Ubi.

It contains the same clauses referring to modding rights as the US version.

And I told you that the EULA can't be enforced here!

My oh my! :damn:


Hey Nico, he's completely right....
:huh: :)

Nico71
07-26-05, 06:19 PM
Yeah, he is! :roll:

terrapin
07-26-05, 06:19 PM
Yeah, he is! :roll: :rotfl:

jasonb885
07-26-05, 06:25 PM
So who here is taking up the gauntlet of legal recourse then?

I thought not.

:huh:

MONOLITH
07-26-05, 06:32 PM
Why the immaturity Terrapin?

I'll let your posts speak for themselves.

And hopefully my posts, contrasted against your childish responses, will open some eyes.


To all the Modders that had their work stolen, I sympathize. Been there, done that.

If any of you would like to see my actual documentation from my own battles with UBISOFT and their legal department, feel free to email me at MONOCORP@Comcast.net. I'll help anyway I can.

Or, you can just keep looking at this other sillyness.

terrapin
07-26-05, 06:33 PM
Why the immaturity Terrapin?

I'll let your posts speak for themselves.

And hopefully my posts, contrasted against your childish responses, will open some eyes.


To all the Modders that had their work stolen, I sympathize. Been there, done that.

If any of you would like to see my actual documentation from my own battles with UBISOFT and their legal department, feel free to email me at MONOCORP@Comcast.net. I'll help anyway I can.

Or, you can just keep looking at this other sillyness.


Yes. :)

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 06:35 PM
Rather than just post a link that can be ignored by those that don't wish to read this I will post the link and copy it. Can those on the below list please state if they have/have not given their permission?
If they are using only mods by permission and not others what will your responses be?????????? Will those so vocaly condeming scurry as I predicted or stand up now? I will not name or refer to any statement as it is not my intention to make anyone feel bad. But, this shuld be a sign to start getting over this and removing the hate banners, IMO
I am still on no one's side here and I feet very lonely being such!!!!
Wulfmann

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9021027043/p/3


Posted Tue July 26 2005 15:23
Who is this Deathping? He does not represent CombatPlanes or X1. I've done some work for CP on the expansion, primarily in testing. I talked to Leonard this morning and he says the optional mods have been removed, and they now have permission for all others included. They had to remove Serg's Type7 DD (he had ok'ed use in World Mod but took exception to commercial release). Here are the permissions they now have..

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks with additional work by NDigital
Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran
U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter
DD Fix by Jungman
Radiolog by Irishred
Resupply by SANSAL
Contact Mod by Fletcher

They added their own version of a skymod as well as new blackout views for periscope and UZO.


Posted Tue July 26 2005 15:24
Oh.. and Nico's cities were removed, and his escorts deleted and replaced with new ones..

terrapin
07-26-05, 06:39 PM
Rather than just post a link that can be ignored by those that don't wish to read this I will post the link and copy it. Can those on the below list please state if they have/have not given their permission?
If they are using only mods by permission and not others what will your responses be?????????? Will those so vocaly condeming scurry as I predicted or stand up now? I will not name or refer to any statement as it is not my intention to make anyone feel bad. But, this shuld be a sign to start getting over this and removing the hate banners, IMO
I am still on no one's side here and I feet very lonely being such!!!!
Wulfmann

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9021027043/p/3


Posted Tue July 26 2005 15:23
Who is this Deathping? He does not represent CombatPlanes or X1. I've done some work for CP on the expansion, primarily in testing. I talked to Leonard this morning and he says the optional mods have been removed, and they now have permission for all others included. They had to remove Serg's Type7 DD (he had ok'ed use in World Mod but took exception to commercial release). Here are the permissions they now have..

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks with additional work by NDigital
Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran
U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter
DD Fix by Jungman
Radiolog by Irishred
Resupply by SANSAL
Contact Mod by Fletcher

They added their own version of a skymod as well as new blackout views for periscope and UZO.


Posted Tue July 26 2005 15:24
Oh.. and Nico's cities were removed, and his escorts deleted and replaced with new ones..


Saw that post, too...


IF all said in this post turns out to be true, it's a proof that shouting out has it's effects.

The 'seawolves' build as of 07/24 is meanwhile circulating heavily on the net, and inthere there's proof enough what X1's initial intentions/actions were.

Nico71
07-26-05, 06:42 PM
Wulfman! They asked for permission AFTER the addon was leaked! Not BEFORE! At this time they claimed that it is gold already (a lie, BTW). So they had a gold version but no permissions! At least not mine.

terrapin
07-26-05, 06:47 PM
Mr. Trombke on 07/20: 'im Subsim geht ja richtig zur Sache :))
Wie schon gesagt diese "Mods" sind nicht geklaut oder irgendsowas. Es liegt natürlich eine Genehmigung von jedem vor. Das meiste ist sowie eine Selbsentwicklung. Die Mods sind ein Extra sozusagen. Wäre doch schade wenn die Käufer das nicht bekommen, weil keine Möglichkeit haben Mods downzuloaden e.c.t.
Ebenso weiß UBI das von unseren Add-on und hat es unter bestimmten Voraussetzungen erlaubt. Übringends besteht die Community nur aus 20% der Käuferschicht von SH3 was wir bedauern.

Was arbeitest Du wenn ich fragen darf?'

:D

Shadow9216
07-26-05, 07:02 PM
I am still on no one's side here and I feet very lonely being such!!!!
Wulfmann

You want to hear something funny, Wulfie? (I use the term in a familiar sense, not derisive) I looked forward to the whole X1 thing. One of my major concerns has been that the most talented modders also happen to be the most hardcore; there's a real gap emerging with the mods, and those who enjoy a more casual type of gameplay will lose out. No judgment here, it is what it is...one answer would be for those who enjoy the easier settings to take up programming and make their own versions of Real U-Boat, Improved Convoys, etc.

I had hoped, however, that X1's offering might include options to enable/disable certain features. The original WorldMod had options regarding distance and duration of map contacts. Something like that, enabling or disabling single merchant reports would give everyone options that are currently not afforded by removing shipping altogether.

I even thought this was likely given one of the original interviews Terrapin had, where the president of X1 (?) stated that the online community represented a fraction (20%?) of total sales- to me that seemed to indicate a willingness to engage those who were truly casual gamers.

No-one ultimately has won here. Those modders whose works were appropriated (stolen?) feel betrayed, and rightfully so. Others, like yourself, feel that action has been called for and decided upon before the facts are in. X1 sure hasn't won, but may ultimately get off scot-free; there is still doubt in some circles as to whether or not they commited a crime, and if so against whom? The pro-ban folks will feel dissatisfied with the outcome, the anti-ban will feel angry that no apology was offered to X1, and the Tali-ban will still be hiding in Afghanistan :rotfl:

(I'm sorry guys, that one was too good to pass up)

I hope one day there is an add-on which will allow us greater control over what changes we want to see in gameplay. It would be nice if the options screen also included "Reduce single merchants", "Reduce DD sonar range", "Increase aircraft effectiveness" for example. I would gladly shell out for that, as long as it was done in accordance with legal and ethical guidelines.

I don't feel I'm for or against anyone. I don't "hate" X1, I think they made a major league screw up and need to be held accountable for it. Saying "I'm sorry, we're a bunch of dumba**es and figured no one would mind, how can we make it up to you guys" would be a good start. If they were to announce tomorrow they were going to redo Seawolves, and announced it with full backing from modders who attested they had been contacted in advance, I might even consider buying it from them.

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 07:10 PM
If------------------------If

And I am being presumptuous, they actually thought it was OK to use mods that said they were offered freely and were in fact naïve in that assumption, if-----------------if that is the case. Than every person that had a mod on that had every right to object and insist that mod be removed or make what ever arrangement, then it is possible these are not the derogatory guys that many have labeled many non flattering, labels.

I am on no one side just trying to stay in the middle on this. Nico, you have objected and they honored that and I bet they will from this point on not make that assumption again.

Now what?

My opinion is if they build an add on that improves the game for the DL challenged will they be resented for doing that without the mods now removed?

At what point peace? I am sure there are some that enjoy the bashing too much to let it go but most of us want this resolved fairly and put behind us.

I have not played or modded SH3 in 48 hours. That is just wrong!!!! LOL

Wulfmann

Nico71
07-26-05, 07:16 PM
Nico, you have objected and they honored that and I bet they will from this point on not make that assumption again.

Now what?

What do you think has happened? Did they say "Oh Nico, that was a bad mistake! We are sooooooo sorry about that! It will never happen again!"?

I think that you have missed the now locked thread with Porno-OSSI pulling his stunts both on the board and PM/email!They did not remove my mods unless I threatened them with a lawsuit!

Wake up, dude!

irishred
07-26-05, 07:26 PM
Who is this Deathping? He does not represent CombatPlanes or X1. I've done some work for CP on the expansion, primarily in testing. I talked to Leonard this morning and he says the optional mods have been removed, and they now have permission for all others included. They had to remove Serg's Type7 DD (he had ok'ed use in World Mod but took exception to commercial release). Here are the permissions they now have..

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks with additional work by NDigital
Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran
U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter
DD Fix by Jungman
Radiolog by Irishred
Resupply by SANSAL
Contact Mod by Fletcher

They added their own version of a skymod as well as new blackout views for periscope and UZO.

Oh.. and Nico's cities were removed, and his escorts deleted and replaced with new ones..


Anyone confirm this? (From Ubi forum sticky)

It would be rather trivial to 'borrow' someone's skymod and tweak the values slightly. That's shady. So is partially dumping Nico's work as a basis for new work. Shady it is.

Yes, I did indeed after a period of time give permission of use to radiolog-lite, and only the lite version, as there is nothing on there that cannot be directly found on the AOD handbook archive. The radiolog-heavy however will not become payware, simply because if it did I would want to recieve the profits from it and I really do not want X1's money, that being said it will continue to be updated and be free to the community.

I can't really say I'm all that pleased about the situation, especially since I was indeed contacted about the mod inclusion after the fact however the main part of the radiolog mod will not be included and as stated before will remain free.

There are a lot of people who do have a right to be upset about it, however when I saw new radio messages as a feature I couldn't really say I was too surprised. I just hope this whole ordeal serves as a lesson to those who try to do this in the future, I really think X1's exec. should be ashamed by the way he has been going about on all the forums, and the personal attacks and posting pornography was way out of line.


I don't feel I'm for or against anyone. I don't "hate" X1, I think they made a major league screw up and need to be held accountable for it. Saying "I'm sorry, we're a bunch of dumba**es and figured no one would mind, how can we make it up to you guys" would be a good start. If they were to announce tomorrow they were going to redo Seawolves, and announced it with full backing from modders who attested they had been contacted in advance, I might even consider buying it from them.


I have the same sentiments here as well, I think the situation would have been a lot better if they had asked first, and as said before Ossi/deathping and his antics didn't help at all, one thing I think is in order is an apology from him, also due to the fact he did try to keep the mod inclusions secret for as long as possible. Let us not also forget that he told us there were no community mods in it as well, to the developers of Seewolves, I really hope you find a new publisher.

Dagger U-539
07-26-05, 07:26 PM
X1 has taken a HUGE hit in the trust dept. every forum,squad,clan and anybody else who plays SH3 has seen or heard of this.Even if they take the mods out I believe it's to late for that now.Their reputaion has been flushed and the best thing they can do now is try to fix it,and thats if they can fix it.every forum I've been to has had links to the different forum threads and ALOT of neg. comments about X1 and their add-on.Even if they do release it I doubt seriously if they can turn a profit from it at this point.
The best thing OSSI can do is hope that people won't look at this in the future when he decides to release an add-on for any sim

Chad44
07-26-05, 07:35 PM
X1 is nothing but thiefs

terrapin
07-26-05, 07:39 PM
Another quote from 'Ossi' (who's the publisher of Thiefwolf...err) as of 07/24, 2210 GMT: 'Tja, im Forum scheinen die wirklich nichts zu verstehen. Die beharren darauf das nur geklaute Sachen darauf sind und alles würde es schon zu download geben. Was wie schon mehrfach erwähnt wurde und in keinster weise stimmt.
Auf der einen Seite wollen sie die Entwickler beschützen auf der anderen Seite habe sie was dagegen wenn die Entwickler dafür Geld bekommen. Ich muss dazu sagen das ich nichts weiter bin als der Publisher und NICHT der Entwickler.
Sie wollen nicht das auch andere Spieler, die kein Überblick haben über die vielen Verbesserungen, in den Genuß kommen das zu benutzen. Es gibt auch welche die kein Internet haben oder eine schnelle Internetverbindung. Durch dieses Verhalten schädigen die unsere Simgemeinde und welche die Stunden/Tage sich dafür einsetzten Spiele noch schöner zu machen.'

Beery
07-26-05, 07:40 PM
Free is free and no matter who's putting out a "pay for" addon of free mods is, in my opinion, a thief.

Yup, and the worst thing about it is, the real victims here are the very people who will be paying for the mod. If the Seewolfe mod really is a combination of free mods, then the X1 folks are really stealing from the very folks they're selling to, because they are selling to the community a product that ALREADY belongs to that community. They're counting on the ignorance (and/or gullibility) of people in the community, in that most people aren't aware that these mods are freely available. Thus, what X1 is doing is not only violation of copyright, but it's fraud. If Ubisoft is supporting X1 in selling what should be a free mod, then Ubisoft is supporting a fraud.

terrapin
07-26-05, 07:43 PM
If Ubisoft is supporting X1 in this Seewolfe mod, then Ubisoft is supporting a fraud.

And therefore doing damage to their financial health.

Beery
07-26-05, 07:55 PM
...I can't really say I'm all that pleased about the situation, especially since I was indeed contacted about the mod inclusion after the fact however the main part of the radiolog mod will not be included and as stated before will remain free. ...

The other thing about this situation is that it will make it that much harder for folks like me to bring together the best mods from the community. Something like this only breeds suspicion, and if someone was to come into the community now and try to do the sort of work that I've done, they might be met with a wall of suspicion. That would be pretty sad.

But I guess we should be glad that the good times have lasted this long - we have enjoyed a great community of players and modders who have been very willing to share knowledge and to share mods. In fact I've never known a mod community that was so willing to work together. Some may say that that willingness to share led to this problem, but I think that's false - it's blaming the victim. I hope that our experience with X1 will not spoil the community spirit we have built.

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 08:00 PM
If Ubisoft is supporting X1 in selling what should be a free mod, then Ubisoft is supporting a fraud.

Was wondering if this too hot for you or you just have more sense than some of us.

As I stated it is very weird to me that UBI SH3 forum has 2 stocky post on this add on..

Many of these mods are going to be different from what I have gathered and the simple fact is most gamers are not modders and will only add something that will install itself. Not sure why so many here think the masses are DL savvy. They are not. Many poeple would gladly pay cash to avoid days of DLing, installing and searching for reasons why they get CTD that many "Experten" can not alway figure out.

Offering a package of DLs with a self installer is not a bad thing. Not getting permission from generous mod makers is a bad thing and it seems to have been addresses by the uproar. Hopefully it will lay ground work that will make things smoother in the long run.

I have been in this before so I understand finding ones stuff where it is unauthorized. But, this was far more heated or maybe just looked that way because I was trying to moderate and not one that was being ripped off. It was far more wrong when it happened to me!!! LOL Now that was wrong!!!!!!

9216, the Taliban :rotfl: I am still laughing

Wulfmann

terrapin
07-26-05, 08:02 PM
...I can't really say I'm all that pleased about the situation, especially since I was indeed contacted about the mod inclusion after the fact however the main part of the radiolog mod will not be included and as stated before will remain free. ...

The other thing about this situation is that it will make it that much harder for folks like me to bring together the best mods from the community. Something like this only breeds suspicion, and if someone was to come into the community now and try to do the sort of work that I've done, they might be met with a wall of suspicion. That would be pretty sad.

But I guess we should be glad that the good times have lasted this long - we have enjoyed a great community of players and modders who have been very willing to share knowledge and to share mods. In fact I've never known a mod community that was so willing to work together. Some may say that that willingness to share led to this problem, but I think that's false - it's blaming the victim. I hope that our experience with X1 will not spoil the community spirit we have built.


Although I'm a only a newbie guest here it's my firm belief that this 'band of brothers' is strong enough to survive the X1 issue...I've seen a lot of forums (some VERY good ones, too), I've been a long-time member of a well-known freeware dev team and saw a lot of HEFTY debates.... This place is one of the best 've ever had the pleasure to visit...

...and if you guys would have brests ( :rotfl: where can I find it?), I'd hug most of you personally.. :D :rotfl: :hmm:

Wulfmann
07-26-05, 08:06 PM
Actually Beery, I thought the great spirit of cooperation was typical.
You mean it is not??
This is exactly what the CF3 community has always been like.

I think the willingness to share comes from the appreciation modders have for others freely giving of their talents and that breeds a desire for further giving of all involved.
A simple legal description attached to every download will prevent this occuring again, IMO and we can soon be back to the spirit of cooperation that is supported by people such as yourself being a great example for it.

Wulfmann

Beery
07-26-05, 08:25 PM
Actually Beery, I thought the great spirit of cooperation was typical.
You mean it is not??
This is exactly what the CF3 community has always been like.

Maybe it's just my experience then. After doing a little mod work for Red Baron (the original - hehe, that dates me, LOL) I did my first serious mod work on the Battleground series of games by Talonsoft. That was a very bad situation because the developers regarded mod-makers as a definite threat - I was even threatened with legal action by Talonsoft merely for producing free unofficial mods. I then worked on Red Baron 3D, which, after a promising start, became very much a house divided against itself due to mod-makers being very concerned with keeping what they learned to themselves (and that was because some of them wanted to make some money from it - which eventually happened for the 'Full Metal Jacket' mod - another case of stolen mods and copyrighted material getting into a for-profit mod). Then I went on to work on B-17 II, where all mod activity was compromised by the official forum moderators who were very much 'anti-mod' and very politically motivated. Then I went on to try modding IL-2, which was a non-starter, since the owner of Maddox Games is philosophically opposed to the very concept of mods, and wants to keep total control over the post-release development of the product. After those experiences, SH3 was a breath of fresh air - the developers are positively mod-friendly, and the community is both welcoming and generous.

I think the willingness to share comes from the appreciation modders have for others freely giving of their talents and that breeds a desire for further giving of all involved.
A simple legal description attached to every download will prevent this occuring again, IMO and we can soon be back to the spirit of cooperation that is supported by people such as yourself being a great example for it.

Wulfmann

It's a pity that we have to resort to legalese, but I think you're right. I just hope that such action won't scare any community-minded mod-makers away.

irishred
07-26-05, 08:31 PM
Actually Beery, I thought the great spirit of cooperation was typical.
You mean it is not??
This is exactly what the CF3 community has always been like.

Maybe it's just my experience then. After doing a little mod work for Red Baron (the original - hehe, that dates me, LOL) I did my first serious mod work on the Battleground series of games by Talonsoft. That was a very bad situation because the developers regarded mod-makers as a definite threat - I was even threatened with legal action by Talonsoft merely for producing free unofficial mods. I then worked on Red Baron 3D, which, after a promising start, became very much a house divided against itself due to mod-makers being very concerned with keeping what they learned to themselves (and that was because some of them wanted to make some money from it - which eventually happened for the 'Full Metal Jacket' mod - another case of stolen mods and copyrighted material getting into a for-profit mod). Then I went on to work on B-17 II, where all mod activity was compromised by the official forum moderators who were very much 'anti-mod' and very politically motivated. Then I went on to try modding IL-2, which was a non-starter, since the owner of Maddox Games is philosophically opposed to the very concept of mods, and wants to keep total control over the post-release development of the product. After those experiences, SH3 was a breath of fresh air - the developers are positively mod-friendly, and the community is both welcoming and generous.

I remember all of this with Talonsoft, quite a while ago, incidents like this resulted in a lot of their devs looking to greener pastures.

Beery
07-26-05, 08:54 PM
I remember all of this with Talonsoft, quite a while ago, incidents like this resulted in a lot of their devs looking to greener pastures.

Yeah. One of the developers (I don't know who it was) actually went so far as to send me a free copy of the Battleground Prelude to Waterloo game. That's how I found out that it was just another case of the megalomaniac boss syndrome. Heck, the owner of the company even pissed off the game's historical consultant, as well as John Tiller - the person who designed the game system that the Battleground system was based on. The other good thing I got out of this was that I got to exchange emails with these two guys, both of whom are very nice.

GT182
07-26-05, 09:10 PM
Then I went on to work on B-17 II, where all mod activity was compromised by the official forum moderators who were very much 'anti-mod' and very politically motivated.

I sure hope you didn"t include me that statement Beery. I wasn't politically anything with B17 II. All I did was try and save v8th OPS from going down the toilet. AND, it will one day fly again when B17 "The Legend Returns" comes out in 2006. And I hope to see you back with us at B-A too.

Beery
07-26-05, 09:19 PM
Then I went on to work on B-17 II, where all mod activity was compromised by the official forum moderators who were very much 'anti-mod' and very politically motivated.

I sure hope you didn"t include me that statement Beery. I wasn't politically anything with B17 II. All I did was try and save v8th OPS from going down the toilet. AND, it will one day fly again when B17 "The Legend Returns" comes out in 2006. And I hope to see you back with us at B-A too.

The moderators in general were very anti-mod. Heck, it was virtually impossible to make mods for that game due to the vicious attacks directed at mods and modders - attacks that usually came from the moderators themselves. I don't recall you as a moderator, GT182, which probably means you weren't a part of the general anti-mod sentiment at BombsAway.com. You can't dispute that the moderators at BA were generally no friends to the mod community - a community that withered and died due to moderator antagonism. Mod threads were all too often silenced, and mod links went dead suspiciously quickly. The game itself withered and died from much the same thing - deprived of the sort of post-release development that mods can convey. I mean my realism mod for B-17 II was the smallest mod I've ever made for any game - it comprised one single file, yet it was the most comprehensive and the most popular mod for that game, and I had to actively work to keep it available on the forums. It's pretty sad when forum moderators actively work to stifle a game's development. The most influential moderators of the bombs away forums made it impossible for a mod community to become established. Their attitude killed B-17 II, and I will never forgive some of those guys for virtually destroying what had the potential to be a great game. If only they had let modders do some post-release gameplay balancing, that game would have been well-known even today, whereas it is now barely known at all even among flight sim buffs.

GT182
07-26-05, 09:31 PM
Well I was a moderator back then if you recall. And the only way to mod the game was via the R&R file. Thus you should remember who the biggest anti R&R change antagonist was. ;) And basically he was ignored, nor was he a moderator.

In Ops we kept the origimal R&R only because most of the newer member were so confused on changing things in it. I know you tried your best to get a file that fit all aspects of the game and tried to match the way things really were in the 8th AAAF. I might still have a few that you made up.I think 5 or 6 in all. Where they are is a mystery tho as I have cds all over the place with B17 stufff on them. I'm not a very good file clerk.

Hawkers
07-26-05, 09:31 PM
Hawker, I went to bed before your response and just now saw your request.
My point was that while many are outraged that X-1 will sell this (reportedly for $25.00 Euros) and they will make big bucks at the expense of many freeware modders but then you state doubts that anyone would buy a donation ware product for maybe $5-7.00. Can you not see that if no one would want it for a small amount, there is no reason at all to think others would pay five times that.

Fair enough, Wulfmann. I see where your argument is coming from. I'm just not convinced, that's all. These days, most folks have access to hi-speed/broadband connections, so making a CD available for those who can't download is becoming a less valid reason. Secondly, before all this X1/Seewolves BS blew up, everyone was happy enough downloading from Terrapin's site and others - no mention was ever made by anyone in the community of the need for a complete mods packaged CD, with installer, etc.
Thirdly, there is a technical issue - just how many mods can you actually put on such a CD install with a single installer? Certain mods will conflict with eachother, and that means some mods will have to be left out. Which ones do you include and which ones do you drop?
Finally, there is a legal issue here. Someone (sorry - can't remember who) has already pointed out on this forum that no CD can be sold (for whatever price) containing derivations of UBI's original work, without the express permission of UBIsoft first.
Since AFAIK UBI has already given that permission to X1 for their add-on, will they then grant permission for a rival package to be sold at a fraction of the price? I'm not so sure.

Nice shuttle pic, BTW, Mate! :cool:

Must have been quite a sight!

Hawkers :up:

GT182
07-26-05, 09:40 PM
Hawkers, I'd imagine that a CD, or DVD, of all the mods made so far would be ok if.... the modders gave permission and the CD was sold only for the cost of the disc and shipping with a bit of handling charge added too.

I for one would go that route, but seeing I have broadband and most all the mods to date, I've my own DVD of mods already... not for sale for any amount of money.

Stymnus
07-26-05, 09:57 PM
Well I was a moderator back then if you recall. And the only way to mod the game was via the R&R file. Thus you should remember who the biggest anti R&R change antagonist was. ;) And basically he was ignored, nor was he a moderator.

In Ops we kept the origimal R&R only because most of the newer member were so confused on changing things in it. I know you tried your best to get a file that fit all aspects of the game and tried to match the way things really were in the 8th AAAF. I might still have a few that you made up.I think 5 or 6 in all. Where they are is a mystery tho as I have cds all over the place with B17 stufff on them. I'm not a very good file clerk.

You guys were at Bombs-Away too? I don't know if you guys would remember me. I came out with one of the P-38 skins that folks seemed to like, though I'm no master modder, that's true :)

I drift away from games after a while and I'm afraid I drifted away from Mighty Eighth after a while too. But it's good to see guys I think I remember (I think I do remember GT182)

I went over to beta test America's Army for a while, then stayed away from military titles for a while. But here I am :)

Hawkers
07-26-05, 09:59 PM
I for one would go that route, but seeing I have broadband and most all the mods to date, I've my own DVD of mods already... not for sale for any amount of money.


That's my point, Mate :up:

Such a CD is only going to be of interest within our community - and how many of us have broadband/high-speed, and already have downloaded most of the mods that would be included on such a CD? Most, if not all of us, I would guess.

I can't see a complete mods CD having such a demand within our community.

Hawkers :up:

Sardaukar
07-26-05, 10:26 PM
these mods have done an incredible service to the game, one of the bigest problems wis getting these mods to the general public, and this is what X1 is going to do... the more normal users that get exposed to these mods, the more they will talk, lets face it, with out these mods, the game is not complete. Now, X1 are wrong and should be puniched for "stealing" even if they did it for the most part legaly... now if the community could take these mods, make sure they all played nice together, and made one big SIMPLE installer, I would pay money, even more if that money got donated to a good cause!!!

Stymnus
07-26-05, 11:17 PM
This next quote is the one of real interest....


Those in copyright law who have been consulted on this have said the modders have a lot of legs (collectively) to stand on here.


I believe it is completely unfair to give the hard working modders of the gaming world false information/hopes.

So, instead of just 'claiming it' let's please see some actual legal documentation, state or federal stautues, anything at all to demonstrate that a modder can sue for use of his mod that UBISOFT retains control of in the first place.

I'm sorry I gave the impression that I thought the modders could sue, or even should, except maybe as a 'cease and desist'. That's not really what I meant here.

What I mean is that X1 should legally be unable to profit off of mods to Ubi's game, according to its EULA, which of course are so seldom supported.

As far as giving 'false hopes', I don't think I'm leading anyone to overrule their own legal aid if they should choose to field it, they know better than I would. I think modders realize that it's done for the joy and enjoyment of seeing your changes happily enjoyed by others -- I have skinned a little for another game and appreciated the knowledge that others liked and used my work, despite that I was unpaid.

I'm sure that modders want just a few things:
o A good and stable repository to share their work
o To 'share and enjoy' as the story goes,
o To NOT BE SCREWED OVER by people seeking to profit off their hard work.

I don't think anyone is demanding money but X1, here.

Abraham
07-26-05, 11:30 PM
these mods have done an incredible service to the game, one of the bigest problems wis getting these mods to the general public, and this is what X1 is going to do... the more normal users that get exposed to these mods, the more they will talk, lets face it, with out these mods, the game is not complete. Now, X1 are wrong and should be puniched for "stealing" even if they did it for the most part legaly... now if the community could take these mods, make sure they all played nice together, and made one big SIMPLE installer, I would pay money, even more if that money got donated to a good cause!!!
So would I...

Beery
07-26-05, 11:37 PM
Well I was a moderator back then if you recall. And the only way to mod the game was via the R&R file.

Not really. There were other ways to mod the game. People remember the R&R file because every major mod included that file. What about the skins? What about the Fnames and Lnames file mod? Oh yes, that's right - that particular mod was suppressed very effectively by you know who, because he felt it didn't pay adequate homage to his crewmates (who, it turned out, flew in the PTO, and not the ETO).

Thus you should remember who the biggest anti R&R change antagonist was. ;) And basically he was ignored, nor was he a moderator.

Yes. He was the historical advisor to the game. I wouldn't say he was ignored. On the contrary, he was taken far too seriously, and he wouldn't have been so influential in the community if he hadn't had the support he had from certain influential moderators, to the extent that links to mods that he disliked seemed to disappear with a surprising regularity, and the crew name change mod (which he hated) always disappeared, to the extent that most players who kept up with the mods for that game don't even know that it existed. Anyway, clearly some moderators weren't among the bad guys, but all I'm saying is that the general attitude of the more influential moderators (or the most vocal ones) wasn't exactly supportive of mods.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a heavy discussion of B-17 II here. As far as I'm concerned, that game was a nasty business all around, and I would have been better leaving the darned thing alone and putting my abilities to better use elsewhere. I certainly could have done without all the hassle I got for trying to make that game all it could be.

JBClark
07-26-05, 11:55 PM
Holy ****e :lol:

Beery
07-27-05, 12:05 AM
these mods have done an incredible service to the game, one of the bigest problems wis getting these mods to the general public, and this is what X1 is going to do... the more normal users that get exposed to these mods, the more they will talk, lets face it, with out these mods, the game is not complete. Now, X1 are wrong and should be puniched for "stealing" even if they did it for the most part legaly... now if the community could take these mods, make sure they all played nice together, and made one big SIMPLE installer, I would pay money, even more if that money got donated to a good cause!!!
So would I...

The problem as I see it is that if X1 gets these stolen mods published in a commercial form, and if they make money from them, they may automatically have a strong de facto ownership claim since they have a financial stake on these mods - which means that if the original authors of these mods try to release those mods (which are their own work) for free, X1 could even take them to court and have their own case in terms of loss of revenue, etc. The courts very likely regard copyright as only meaningful when loss of revenue is at issue. In such a case, the courts could be persuaded to disallow testimony regarding the original authorship, since the original authors ascribed no monetary value to the mod. That means that anything in the Seewolfe mod could be deemed illegal for any of us to use in free mods, even if one of us was the original author of that part of the mod. If Seewolfe is released in commercial form, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will have a copyright attached to it. If X1 are unprincipled enough to steal other peoples' work, do you really think they would balk at using a lawsuit to take some modmakers to the cleaners financially?

Abraham
07-27-05, 12:23 AM
Hi Beery,
If what you describe is the legal situation then something sucks.
I am sure you are right that X-1 will claim copyrights over 'their' product. But would those copyrights (or more accurate: copy-wrongs) be upheld in Court against the modders who only intended to serve our community (and have some fun in the meantime)? And could that result in the Doomsday scenario you describe - modders being taken to Court for making available for free their own mods?
If it's true then the law makes stealing mods a lucrative side-job...

Beery
07-27-05, 12:52 AM
Hi Beery,
If what you describe is the legal situation then something sucks.
I am sure you are right that X-1 will claim copyrights over 'their' product. But would those copyrights (or more accurate: copy-wrongs) be upheld in Court against the modders who only intended to serve our community (and have some fun in the meantime)? And could that result in the Doomsday scenario you describe - modders being taken to Court for making available for free their own mods?
If it's true then the law makes stealing mods a lucrative side-job...

I dunno. I'm no lawyer. I'm just speculating - bad habit I know. The problem is more related to fear than law anyway. If Seewolfe does have a copyright notice - which it undoubtedly will have, who among us knows the law enough to be sure that my doomsday scenario isn't possible. I know I don't, so I'm going to be a bit worried about publishing mods for free that some disreputable company has claimed a copyright on (albeit unfairly). Not that it'll stop me, but it will worry me, and others might decide they don't want the worry, so they won't use a mod they should be free to use, and that small defeat means that the good guys lose out, if only in a small way.

Hawkers
07-27-05, 01:54 AM
I dunno. I'm no lawyer. I'm just speculating - bad habit I know. The problem is more related to fear than law anyway. If Seewolfe does have a copyright notice - which it undoubtedly will have, who among us knows the law enough to be sure that my doomsday scenario isn't possible. I know I don't, so I'm going to be a bit worried about publishing mods for free that some disreputable company has claimed a copyright on (albeit unfairly). Not that it'll stop me, but it will worry me, and others might decide they don't want the worry, so they won't use a mod they should be free to use, and that small defeat means that the good guys lose out, if only in a small way.


I dunno either. What I do know is that if I was one of the aggrieved modders, I'd be taking steps right now to

a) put some sort of copyright notice/legal disclaimer in the readme of my mod

b) Be seeking the advice of a lawyer conversant with international/EU copyright law.

AFAIK, Irishred has stuck on a copyright/legal notice in the readme of his latest version of 'Radiolog'. Other modders who claim to have had their stuff stolen by X1 should do the same.

As far as seeking professional legal advice goes. I don't know if anybody has actually done this. Terrapin has said 'Lawsuits are being prepared', but did not elaborate.

If what you're saying turns out to be true, Beery, then the modding community NEEDS TO GET IT"S LEGAL ACT TOGETHER VERY QUICKLY.

Because once this X1 'product' hits the shelves (complete with copyright) it's 'game over' for those talented, ripped-off guys.

And modders happily and willingly sharing their work with us over the internet will become a thing of the past. :roll:

Hawkers :cry:

Elder-Pirate
07-27-05, 02:43 AM
The problem as I see it is that if X1 gets these stolen mods published in a commercial form, and if they make money from them, they may automatically have a strong de facto ownership claim since they have a financial stake on these mods - which means that if the original authors of these mods try to release those mods (which are their own work) for free, X1 could even take them to court and have their own case in terms of loss of revenue, etc. The courts very likely regard copyright as only meaningful when loss of revenue is at issue. In such a case, the courts could be persuaded to disallow testimony regarding the original authorship, since the original authors ascribed no monetary value to the mod. That means that anything in the Seewolfe mod could be deemed illegal for any of us to use in free mods, even if one of us was the original author of that part of the mod. If Seewolfe is released in commercial form, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will have a copyright attached to it. If X1 are unprincipled enough to steal other peoples' work, do you really think they would balk at using a lawsuit to take some modmakers to the cleaners financially?


Good grief Beery thats scarery. I sure hope it dosn't come to that. :nope:

Frank
07-27-05, 05:47 AM
I'm no Lawyer, but I personally believe that X-1 having any success with this CD of theirs will be marginal, and were they to persue legal action after their CD is produced would be a waste of time/money/effort.

Firstly, All the current modders are free to "mod" and have the parent company's permission. UBI is much bigger than X1 and up to this date are ok with all you have done. That 'trail' is and has remained unmolested to date, and even after X1 garbage comes out, it will remain a seperate link/permission path.

Secondly, Should you mod something off the SEEWOOFS CD, then they might have somewhat of a case, but persuit of it will bear a tree barron of fruit. What is their presedent? -> "We took mods off the internet as our sourse of data, modded them, then sold them. Then those modders came along and modded our mods-making their own mods again and giving them for free!" Who would waste their time even hearing such retarted rubbish?!

Thirdly, I say let them sink should they persue the original modders in any form. I am willing to back any modder up with a notorized statement, or in person testimony of who modded "first", and who had "first permission".

This SeaWoofs CD will find its way in the bargain bin rather quickly, or at Ebay for $.01. :lol:

Lastly, even if they did try to take someone to court for modding "their" mods, is there any presedent for this? If not, then they have a costly uphill battle on the way that they will stand to lose alot more then they could ever gain. I say let the fools talk all they want, its all "Wind and Smoke"!

Frank

terrapin
07-27-05, 07:32 AM
X1 doesn't have the financial background to be able to sue anyone - and I'm pretty (the usual 99.somewhat percent) sure Ubi will NOT support them in any way.


'Seascam' is already history, X1 might not know it by now...

Shadow9216
07-27-05, 07:56 AM
The courts very likely regard copyright as only meaningful when loss of revenue is at issue

Not true, a great many things have been copyrighted and/or patented which have never seen the light of day; owners have successfully sued anyone who encroached upon their works, even when it had never been offered for sale. The litmus test has been "did the defendant know the works in question were the property of the plaintiff at the time of the infringement?"

With the help of Terrapin and this forum, you modders have very strong footing for your claims. It will be easy to provide ample evidence to establish a timeline from start to finish. As many/most of you announce your intent ahead of time, then discuss it throughout development, then post it on Terrapin's site, there's a detailed history. It would be incumbent upon anyone holding a prior claim to speak up before your mod is delivered. Claiming after it's been published "hey! I had that idea first" is a little indefensible.

The threat though is that an unscrupulous modder might monitor your debate, rush through their own version, then publish it. That happens with products all the time- but since you originated the idea, they can't claim exclusive ownership, only offer a different mod, which must compete in the marketplace.

Beery
07-27-05, 08:56 AM
Well, that's good to know. But the problem is still there, and I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community. I hate to say it, but I think it has reached the point where the mod-makers who have been wronged must either do something or let it go altogether. All this talk will be completely ineffective. If only there was someone here who knew the law on this, and who could direct those of us who are affected as to what the most effective thing to do would be.

Drebbel
07-27-05, 09:09 AM
Well, that's good to know. But the problem is still there, and I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community.

If you are all really sure of this you could contact the German Police and file a complaint ?

Its free :D And it is atleast a good start.

The X1 director's name and address are listed on the X1 website.

You could contact the following Police station:
Polizeistation Mörfelden-Walldorf
Okrfiteler Straße 5
64546 Mörfelden-Walldorf
Telefon: 06105 / 40 06 0
Telefax: 06105 / 40 06 16

terrapin
07-27-05, 09:13 AM
Well, that's good to know. But the problem is still there, and I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community. I hate to say it, but I think it has reached the point where the mod-makers who have been wronged must either do something or let it go altogether. All this talk will be completely ineffective. If only there was someone here who knew the law on this, and who could direct those of us who are affected as to what the most effective thing to do would be.

Beery,

the problem is that it's copyright law. It's a grey zone...the outcome of a lawsuit will be affected by 1.) the argumentation of the lawyer, 2. the court asnd the judge. 3.) the arguments of X1's lawyer.

Class action lawsuits aren't possible in Germany. One further problem is the jurisdictional amount of the case: X1 is a rather poor 'company' (dunno if it's a registered company according to German law ata all...?), and it should be difficult to find an attorney to defend a modders rights, just because the attorney's fees are calculated in relation to the jurisdictional amount of a case in Germany.


My advice is to make clear that UBI can only lose in every aspect one can think of if they are allowing the X1 addon.

If the legal department of UBI jumps in (hired lawyers...), it would mean nothing but good things for UBI's sales and image, the community of players and all modders...