Sources for good missions

[SeaQueen]

I was just thinking:
...
Perhaps anyone around here are sitting on a link to some website where realistic, hypothetical battle scenarios, based on qualified assumptions*, are contributed to the internet?

*Let us say that in 1995, someone at the Pentagon worked out a scenario for naval warfare against China, if US forces were stationed there and there and other factors. I, and some other people as well, are looking for such scenarios. Realistic battlefiction on a grand scale. Tom Clancy-like.

I found another "realistic" source describing a hypothetical naval conflict where the U.S. intervenes between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus and other islands. It's in Wayne Hughes' Fleet Tactics and Coastal Combat

[OKO]

My opinion, is that you have 2 very different kind of game :

solo mission
where the story and the realism have a great importance to ensure immersion of the player in a mission or a campagne.

MP mission
where the more important thing is
1) the balance of side
2) replayability
3) good choice of objectives
4) and mission duration.
Realism is not a priority here.

Quite different objectives for these 2 kind of scenarios.
I try to make my MP mission playable also in solo, and this is not always really easy (scripting each plateform).
Finally, I don't take the realism (I mean geopolitical realism) in consideration when making a MP mission, just because its limit a LOT the possibilities to make a good and exiting MP mission

But I actually work on a KILO campaign, and this campaign won't be playable in MP (because of mission duration).
This campaign will be as close as possible from the actual geostrategic worldmap.

[Bellman]

:) Good summary - I would like to see this post under the 'Working examples' thread,
which is an excellent starting point for we 'Learners'.

Good enough I think for a 'Sticky' ?

Done! :up:

[timmyg00]

MP mission
where the more important thing is
1) the balance of side
2) replayability
3) good choice of objectives
4) and mission duration.
Realism is not a priority here. I disagree strongly with that assessment. Realism may suffer somewhat due to time constraints (it's hard to get people to sit in on a single MP session for more than a couple of hours), but it is still an important consideration for me when I create my MP missions.

TG

[timmyg00]

I found another "realistic" source describing a hypothetical naval conflict where the U.S. intervenes between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus and other islands. It's in Wayne Hughes' Fleet Tactics and Coastal Combat I have that book... both editions. Fantastic read!

TG

[OKO]

MP mission
where the more important thing is
1) the balance of side
2) replayability
3) good choice of objectives
4) and mission duration.
Realism is not a priority here.

I disagree strongly with that assessment. Realism may suffer somewhat due to time constraints (it's hard to get people to sit in on a single MP session for more than a couple of hours), but it is still an important consideration for me when I create my MP missions.

TG

So Timmy, you will be VERY VERY restricted in the choice of your theatres.
I can say, as usual MP player, I never had people saying, during the mission, they don't like it because it's "geopolitically" unrealistic.
The goal is to make it interesting and to give a nice fight, well balanced, with action and the much work possible (nothing worth than to wait 1h30 before something happen ...)
If you look at my missions, you will see no one of them is more than 2 hours of games, usually, they are about 1H before one of the sides gets its objectives.
But during these 1H or 45mn, there is always 15 to 30 mn of positionning / data collection before engagment.

If you always try to have geopolitical realism, mission have DEEP chance to be bad balanced, just because if you do this, one side will be MUCH more strong than the other (US to name it)

I prefer interesting game instead to kill the interest in the name of 'realism'.
Because 'realistic' mission is way too long and way to unbalanced in real life ...

And that's why I said I concentrate on realism ONLY on solo mission, form reasons mentionned above.

Replayability is a probably one of the main factor to consider => dynamic group (to have something different each time) coupled to dynamic locations can make a mission replayable lots of time with different conditions.
It's very important for me as I often play my maps with friends.
And I still don't have lots of map made ...

talking about this, I'd like very much to have random wheater and sea states on editor ...

TimmyG00, I don't know how much often you play on MP match, but as regular player, I can tell you the more important is the quality of the engagment, and not the name of the boats ...

[timmyg00]

I agree that Single Player missions are more conducive to realism, in that the player can spend much more time on them. However, if you create the mission properly, you can simulate realistic engagements on a shorter (MP) time scale.

So Timmy, you will be VERY VERY restricted in the choice of your theatres. That's wrong. I can put my missions anywhere in the world with great success.

I can say, as usual MP player, I never had people saying, during the mission, they don't like it because it's "geopolitically" unrealistic. Well good for you, I'm sure you're very proud of yourself ;)

If you always try to have geopolitical realism, mission have DEEP chance to be bad balanced, just because if you do this, one side will be MUCH more strong than the other (US to name it) Then it is the duty of the MP mission designer to balance realism with gameplay, and use his or her creativity if necessary.

Replayability is a probably one of the main factor to consider => dynamic group (to have something different each time) coupled to dynamic locations can make a mission replayable lots of time with different conditions. I'm well aware of that. I have a lot of experience with such things from Sub Command as well as DW.

TimmyG00, I don't know how much often you play on MP match, but as regular player, I can tell you the more important is the quality of the engagment, and not the name of the boats ... I'm not sure what you mean by "the name of the boats"... that sentence made no sense to me, unless you are advocating the use of, for example, the FFG to simulate an equivalent ship in a Russian CVBG... This is part of what I meant when I mentioned "creativity" above. Mission designers should have a sense of creativity in order to overcome the occasional lack of playable platforms in the game (meaning DESIRED playables, like no Russian surface forces) and also to overcome the relatively short durations of Multiplayer matches.

The bottom line is that you CAN have a respectable degree of realism in a multiplayer match. You simply must have the right stuff ;)

TG

[SeaQueen]

I have that book... both editions. Fantastic read!

TG

I want to read the first edition. What was the biggest difference?

[SeaQueen]

I disagree strongly with that assessment. Realism may suffer somewhat due to time constraints (it's hard to get people to sit in on a single MP session for more than a couple of hours), but it is still an important consideration for me when I create my MP missions.

TG

What DW really needs is a 72hr MP mega-scenario for ASW. Feel the burn baby!

The study would be my CIC... I'd have to rename the dining room the "wardroom"...

I agree with you, though. Much of what makes a scenario compelling is that it's a big "what if" based on historical, projected, or current circumstances. Multiplayer or not, something about it has to capture me. Otherwise... I might as well be playing Doom.


I think there's two kinds of people that play DW, though. At least, from what I've seen. One is has some kind of real-life experience with naval issues, and wants to use it as a way to play through things they think about. The other kind probably hasn't had any real life experience, and is looking for a pickup game with their friends, and captures what they read in Tom Clancy novels or whatever.

I'm not sure both camps can ever really be totally satisfied.

[timmyg00]

I want to read the first edition. What was the biggest difference?The first edition was called "Fleet Tactics - Theory and Practice" and did not focus on the littorals and approaches like the second edition did. It contained somewhat less about missile tactics than does the second edition, and the fictional battle at the end of the book was between the Russians and Americans in the Eastern Mediterranean, but closer to the Middle East (south of Turkey).

What DW really needs is a 72hr MP mega-scenario for ASW. Feel the burn baby!

The study would be my CIC... I'd have to rename the dining room the "wardroom"... *drools*

I think there's two kinds of people that play DW, though. At least, from what I've seen. One is has some kind of real-life experience with naval issues, and wants to use it as a way to play through things they think about. The other kind probably hasn't had any real life experience, and is looking for a pickup game with their friends, and captures what they read in Tom Clancy novels or whatever.

I'm not sure both camps can ever really be totally satisfied. That sounds about right.

TG

[Bellman]

:) :) I have to say I agree with both OKO and Timmyg00. :hmm: Oh yes.

Discussion here seems to frequently take a 'mine is better than yours ' direction quite unnecessarily. :roll:

It is possible both to enjoy playing realistic scenarios and those where realism is not a priority.
I thought that it was only horses that wore blinkers. :huh:

An example - Take shooting - Possible to walk the fields or take the clays and yes jump a 4 x 4 and 'torch' at night.
Varying degrees of reality all enjoyable. :up:

I agree with OKO's ' important things ' but would have inserted the words ' the only ' before priority.

I am struggling to learn scenario design currently and hope to borrow from features implemented
by both protaganists and the excellent surprise and adrenalin boosting features of the Fish scenarios.

What this thread has demonstrated is that I will have to attach labels to my scenario descriptions
( :lol: Health Warnings) egs. :-
' A realistic encounter.'
' A neo-realistic scenario with surprise elements.'
' A fun paint-ball action scenario'

We mus'nt forget that our 'serious' sims future will depend largely on attracting and involving
a broader spectrum of 'gamers.' Embrace this or risk a loss widely experienced in the flight sim. market.

Fun and realism are not mutualy exclusive.

[timmyg00]

Discussion here seems to frequently take a 'mine is better than yours ' direction quite unnecessarily. :roll: Your interpretation, perhaps, but I don't see it that way.

It is possible both to enjoy playing realistic scenarios and those where realism is not a priority. Who said it wasn't?

All I see is a legitimate discussion on whether realism can be a part of short duration ( ~2 hour) multiplayer scenarios. OKO thinks it cannot, and I disagree. Pretty simple. Nobody said anything about any one type of mission being more fun than another; enjoyment is completely subject to personal taste.

Don't bring a bucket of water when there's no fire :P

TG

[Bellman]

I see no bucket.
I see no fire.

Just good humour for those who can appreciate it .

OKO '' ...... can tell you the more important is the quality of the engagment, and not the name of the boats ...''

Seaqueen '' What DW really needs is a 72hr MP mega-scenario for ASW. Feel the burn baby! ''


:hmm:

[timmyg00]

OK, whatever. Let's just get back on topic and dispense with the irrelevancies.

TG

[Bellman]

Yep :up:

Would it help players if designers did effectively 'label' the type of challenge posed to the player ?
'Realistic' mission task operation descriptions are focused and one is not anticipating the out of character
appearance of units not normaly found in operational waters. The 'unrealistic' fantasy scenarios
have a more unstrutured range of options.

I was serious about labelling/health warnings which would take the form of for example - in the description -
'' A fun 2 v 2 MP sub combat scenario around seamounts with some 'foreign AI surprises'' :hmm:

[timmyg00]

Yep :up:

Would it help players if designers did effectively 'label' the type of challenge posed to the player ?
'Realistic' mission task operation descriptions are focused and one is not anticipating the out of character
appearance of units not normaly found in operational waters. The 'unrealistic' fantasy scenarios
have a more unstrutured range of options.

I was serious about labelling/health warnings which would take the form of for example - in the description -
'' A fun 2 v 2 MP sub combat scenario around seamounts with some 'foreign AI surprises'' :hmm: Absolutely.

TG

[SeaQueen]

It contained somewhat less about missile tactics than does the second edition,

That's interesting. Several of the old'Cold Warrior mathematicians down the hall from me at work have copies of the 1st Edition. The book's about the same size. What did it talk about instead? Carrier aircraft?

[timmyg00]

It contained somewhat less about missile tactics than does the second edition,

That's interesting. Several of the old'Cold Warrior mathematicians down the hall from me at work have copies of the 1st Edition. The book's about the same size. What did it talk about instead? Carrier aircraft? I should have noted that the first edition lacks an entire chapter on missile tactics that's in the second edition (which is chapter 6). Also in chapter 1, there are only five cornerstones :P

TG

[Bellman]

;) My copy is winging its way.

The general reader should'nt overlook Ed Dille and Tom Bashams 'Strategy Guide to Harpoon 2'. 1994 Prima

Ed is a former naval Tactical Action Officer and Tom is a former defense contractor on US Army
helicopter simulations and an electronics engineer in R & D.

Most guides make good reserve paper for the WC but this one is almost a training manual on modern naval warfare.
Subjects covered :-
Intelligence gathering.
Planning mission profiles.
Organising Task forces for mutual support.
Defence against all threat profiles: Ships, subs & aircraft.
Matching weapon and salvo size to target type.
Locate and destroy the enemy.

The actual game mechanics of H2 are only covered minimaly (30 out of some 430 pages). Mostly its Seapower
and Maritime srtategy- Sea Control, Sea Denial and Power projection - hardly a game manual more
lifting the lid on how real-world naval officers utilize the assets at hand in real-world situations. :cool:'

[SeaQueen]

;) My copy is winging its way.

I'm sure you'll love it. It starts off with 18th century naval combat and goes right to the present. It's not a long read at all, either. Even so, it explains a lot of things which you hear people say, but don't necessarily explain, like the fact that small missile boats are scary. It's not necessarily math-heavy, but there is a little bit of math in it. I hope you won't be scared by it. It's mostly there so you can say you've seen it.

[FERdeBOER]

Hello all. It´s a very interesting conversation here!

I want to tell that in WIKIPEDIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page you can find a lot of info about countries: navy, air force... it depends of the country your search, but, for example, I had find the ships and helos that Turkey has.Even the one´s they are planing to buy.

As I said, is not perfect, I couldn´t find the naval bases of Turkey, but I found the Russian´s ones, but in the other hand I found the names of the Almirals in charge of the fleets!! :up:

Is a good place to look. Hope you find it interesting.

[swimsalot]

I've seen missions by many of the posters in here, so I think it's the right place to ask.
I enjoy writing scenarios, and personally think I'm pretty good at it. But I haven't really dug into the mission editor part of DW. I have played around with it a bit, but it's not very intuitive, at least for a novice like myself.

Can anyone help out with the map making part?
I'd love to team up with someone, I'm working on a pretty good campaign now.
I'm in Seawolves, on ICQ, and have another 3 weeks off work from an injury!!!
Contact me if ya feel like helpin out, I'd appreciate any info/ideas.
Even if you have an idea for a scenario, but don't like writing them, I'd love to help.
Thanks,
(':up:')
Swims
jbambrick@comcast.net
ICQ 249-548-432

[sonar732]

For the old Sub Command salts...

There was a website that had default maps for various parts of the world. Indian Ocean, Gulf of Mexico, the Med, etc. All of the important ocean features were labeled and some other ones had lighthouses, oil rigs, etc.

Where did this site go?

[Kapitan]

what about when a special naval exercise turns into WW3 ?

you could have russians testing a new missile system and they are being moniterd by the americans and the russians get annoyed and sink the american boat which in turn ncreates a back lash and america send a fleet to come and destroy russian navy.

so the mission could be set in the bearnts sea with three kilos and two akulas many surface ships and planes also american ships subs and plane giving it a good battling out

how about that?

[SeaQueen]

For the old Sub Command salts...

There was a website that had default maps for various parts of the world. Indian Ocean, Gulf of Mexico, the Med, etc. All of the important ocean features were labeled and some other ones had lighthouses, oil rigs, etc.

Where did this site go?

You can actually download a lot of the charts that they use for satellite navigation from the national geospatial intelligence agency, but you need a viewer for the files. They only have the CONUS available online, though.

[inetd]

I found http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/index.html very useful when creating missions. It provides data about the naval and air force bases of different countries, often with geographical coordinates.

[SeaQueen]

Strategic Antisubmarine Warfare and Naval Strategy by Tom Stefanick

A bit dry sometimes, but none the less comprehensive in it's details. Describes the hunt for Soviet SSBNs in their bastions. Discusses the role of area surveillance (SOSUS, SURTASS), maritime patrol aircraft, SSNs and surface ships. Additionally, it vaguely describes the possible role of nuclear weapons in ASW.

The real gem in this book is the appendices, though, which go into all the gorey details of acoustics, engineering and oceanography pointing out exactly what about the problem was so difficult.

[SeaQueen]

The navy puts out periodicals for it's various communities.

Surface Warfare for surface warfare
Undersea Warfare for submarine and undersea warfare
Naval Aviation for the flyboys

occaisionally one can find an interesting scenario, hypothetical or historical, and discussion associated with it.

[Kapitan]

What about a perisher type mission ?

The captain must do all these tasks and get a certain amount of points to see if he is passed, basicaly training exercise but using the british perisher as an example.

Set out goals ie they have to sink this ship this sub navigate this area and fire this mine that and they have to complete goals if they fail one goal then they have to start again.

[SeaQueen]

What about a perisher type mission ?

The captain must do all these tasks and get a certain amount of points to see if he is passed, basicaly training exercise but using the british perisher as an example.

Set out goals ie they have to sink this ship this sub navigate this area and fire this mine that and they have to complete goals if they fail one goal then they have to start again.

Here's an article in USW magazine about it. I don't know how useful it is:

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/usw/issue_18/perisher.htm


The thing is, the at-sea portion of the Perisher is 4-weeks long. In light of that fact, it might be a better subject for a short campaign.

[SeaQueen]

Submarine Warfare in the Arctic: Option or Illusion? by Mark Sakitt

This book was written in the 1980s, as Congress was considering funding for the 600-ship navy. A thing of the past, the book offers some good historical documentation of thinking about the Soviet threat. One of the drivers for the huge submarine force of the 600 ship navy, was the hunt for Soviet SSBNs in the arctic.

The first thing in this short book that struck me of profound usefulness to scenario makers, was the first chart. On it is the Soviet's estimates of the NATO forces disposition in the European theatre. It includes the positions of CVBGs, SSN operating areas, surface ASW, CAPTOR minefields, and MPA patrol areas, as well as their estimated locations of SOSUS barriers. From the perspective of scenario development, these things open up the possiblity for a myriad of extremely realistic scenarios fighting WWIII from the GIUK Gap all the way up through the Norwegian Sea. Finding these sorts of charts in unclassified literature is rare, so unless you're the sort of person who likes to put in a lot of Freedom of Information Act requests in order to support their hobby, this item alone makes the book valuable from the perspective of scenario development.

Additionally, there's descriptions of the various tactics SSBNs might use in their defence, including the use of decoys embedded in minefields and the use of escorts.

Generally painting a bleak picture for US under-ice capabilities, the book highlights exactly how challenging the environment can be. Showing the effects of ice keels on sonar, their frequency, and other technical pieces of information, which might be of more use to game developers than scenario developers, but are none the less interesting and add to a more informed discussion of ASW tactics.

[GrayOwl]

~~~~~ From memuars Admiral Chernavin - Ex-general Commander NAVY of USSR.~~~~

We accepted all possible measures, that remove to praise at at whom her it appeared much. And the operation, about which there will
be a speech below, has worked, outright has disturbed Pentagun and has called inquiries in a Congress of USA. I do not know, how
named ours manouevre the Americans, but in our service documents this operation passed under the code name "«ATRINA".* [* a
comment of the author. "«ATRINA" - word artificial, it no in any dictionaries. We did not want, that even the semantic shade of a code
word could something say about developed operation. By the same principle were given the names and its other stages -
"«FERMACEET" etc.]
She was conceived still then, when I commanded Northern Fleet, and preparation for its realization began at once, as soon as me
have ratified in a post Commander NAVY USSR. However to lead her technical readiness of some ships immediately has not allowed
readiness of crews. It was necessary to transfer her(it) by the beginning of 1987.
In what the sense "«ATRINA" consist? The Americans have got used for, that ours Subs are put forward in areas of a battle service
— and it first of all Northern Atlantic and Mediterranean sea — on the same direction with small deviations: or between Fareras and
Scottish islands, or between Iceland and Greenland. And it is difficult to find any other optimum from the seaworthy point of view (I yet I
do not speak about the tactical party of business) way from coast of the Kola peninsula in the Mediterranean sea.
So, for years of our many battle services ASW of force NATO have learned to intercept Soviet Subs on these main routes of
expansion. It was necessary to find and to check up in practice a way of expansion Subs without loss of reserve, and at the same time
and slightly impudent «of the probable opponent », having shown, that if necessary we can put answer-back impact.
The success of similar demonstration would immediately be reflected in tone of many international negotiation, which in second half
1980 years. The Americans were inclined to spend at powerful diplomatic pressure, supporting it at times and «by game of muscles »
of military fleet, or else, «to politics ships » we should oppose quite adequate « politics of underwater cruisers ».
The success of this operation meant and for the international prestige ours NAVY much. NATOs Commanders should feel, that with
a leaving former Commander — of the Admiral of Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov, it is a lot of made for fleet and for a conclusion of
our ships to open spaces of World ocean, — his successor not only is not going to to hand over the found positions, but also is ready to
continue an independent and firm line of the predecessor.
Thus, the operation "«ATRINA" became to some extent mine NAVY Commander by a debut, to lose it was impossible under no
circumstances.
My choice put on 33 Sub division a Northern Fleet, equipped by then by most modern ships completed with the skilled officers -
submariners. Actually, this oldest subs formation, whose label — the white bear breaking in hands an enemy submarine, itself prepared
for itself and delivered on other associations and fleet of the commanders of the ships, testing conditions of Arctic Region.
But most important — the submariners this formation had by unique experience of joint actions in Atlantic similar themes, which
were planned in "«ATRINA". In June, 1985 in area New-Faundlend banks they carried out operation under the code name "«APORT",
which pursued two basic purposes: to open areas of patroling SSBNs of the probable opponent and to reveal new tactical receptions
of ASW forces NATO.
I always was excited with a problem commanders of independence at ocean. Still by commander 45 Sub Division, I not without envy
see in the party of the army colleagues. The commander motor-shooting or tank-division itself creates fight, itself develops ways of
actions and management of forces in scale of connection, i.e. he though also small, but commander.
We on fleet had other system. We, sea commanders only in base and in ranges of battle preparation. With an exit in the sea actions
of the underwater ships operate with HQ of Northern fleet or from Moscow — with Kremlin.
I believed and I believe, what is it compelled, but not absolutely correct practice. In conditions Nuclear of war at ocean the
commanders of the ships and connections is free or involuntarily will receive where large freedom of actions, than in peace time,
therefore they should be able to accept the independent decisions and to not be afraid to do it. More shortly to be able to be at war at
own risk, sometimes not waiting of the orders HQ, which in conditions Nuclear war not the ship always can reach. Here speech goes
about management only by underwater forces, since at surface forces system another.
I have not forgotten those old division commander of experiences and reflections and by way of experiment has charged with
development of ocean operations a staff sub division. Moreover, has offered to operate involved Subs not only from Moscow, but also
from a board of the ship in the sea to the commander a sub division.
But at first some words about operation "«APORT". Developed its staff 33-rd division led by commander — young, vigorous and for
the years rather skilled submariners by the captain 1 rank Anatoliy Ivanovitch Schevtchenko (nowadays — by the vice-admiral). Well
understanding, that the success of any battle operation in its suddenness, and guarantee of suddenness — reserve of preparation,
Schevtchenko has limited a circle of the devoted persons and has lead a number of measures on false information. Even the chief of
the special department naval reconaissance, professional spy, and that has not suspected, that division prepares for large-scale
operation. One day prior to an exit of the subs in the sea Schevtchenko has offered to the chief of the special department to undersign
under date of the written message about the beginning of operation.
— Where I to you for one day search am so much the representatives? — that was amazed.
However has found, and May 29, 1985 year, sub division began expansion. From Zapadnaya Litza send four multi-purpose SSN :
K - 299, K -324, K - 488, K - 502.
Fifth, K -147, — with new system of detection wakehome of a trace (on keelwaterof anomaly) has left from Gremikha
.
The marching staff led by the captain 1 rank Schevychenko has arrived in area of operation (Caribbean sea) earlier — onboard AGI
ship "«LIRA". East of Cuba Schevtchenko and his officers send on gydroagraph camuflage ship "«Kolguev", from which board through
space satellite communication and order then management submarines.
The operation began on June 18 to the west New-Faundlends banks. Two subs were set one after another clockwise, and two —
towards to them. This double "Whirlpool" has joined also four planes of sea aircraft TU -142, flying up with the Cuban air station
San-Antonio.
The Americans have begun to worry. In air have risen patrol ASW P-3 'Orion' planes from air bases Bransweek (Bermoods sector),
Lagens (Azores sector) and Greenwood (Canadian sector). They order search of our boats days and nights, making on 3-4 flights per
day.
Have found out only K - 488, and that in the Icelandic sector, on home return transition.
Ours "Find" was more powerful: K - 324 had three contacts with American SSBN and SSN, the total time of tracking behind them
has made 28 hours. Was distinguished K - 147 (commander — V.V.Nikitin). The crew it sub within five day conducted tracking for
American SSBN, go behind her on keelwater to a trace. Then on an order staff, K - 147, come up is closer and having entered in
hydroacoustic contact, conducted tracking in a passive mode even day.
Pertinently to pay attention to time of tracking (day) for American SSBN. I point on it attention only because some «connoisseurs-
experts" till now try to prove, that ours subs — both «blind, and deaf persons", and American...
By July 1, 1985 the operation "APORT" was completed. In result find out two areas of patroling American subs such as « James
Madison », two areas of actions multi-purpose SSN USA, and also are revealed tactical receptions of the American aircraft by search
developed in the sea SSNs. All our submarines safely have come back in bases.

Developing operation "ATRINA", have recollected experience "APORT". Certainly, more suitable commander of a underwater veil,
than captain 1 rank Schevtchenko, * [* — an Interesting detail. In 1992 emissars 'RUCH' persuaded the vice-admiral Schevtchenko to
leave the Russian fleet and to head NAVY of Ukraine. However Anatoliy Ivanovitch flatly has refused to change to the oath. I well for a
long time knew and I know Anatoliy Ivanovitch and other act from him and did not expect.] to find was difficultly.

So, five multi-purpose SSNs, five commanders, five crews, should quickly be prepared for most crucial joint navigation in western
hemisphere of a planet. Even the commanders SSN only at the latest moment have learned details of operation, where and with what
purpose the ships leave.
Together with SSNs two took part in operation surface ships with flexible towed arrays such as "Kolguev" and division of sea aircraft
TU-142. And was planned, that the planes will fly up not only from air stations of the Kola peninsula and centre of Russia, but also from
a
ir stations of Cuba.
It was necessary to organize precise mutual understanding of all diverse forces. The active participation in it was accepted
commander Northern fleet, the admiral I.M. Kapitanetz.
I shall not be mistaken, if I shall say, that of so careful purposeful joint preparation of commanders of the subs and ASW air planes in
our fleet was not spent yet. It was the well planned study...

In the first of March, 1987 from Zapadnaya Litza there was first SSN of the future veil. In the agreed time second has come off a
mooring, then third, fourth, fifth... The operation "ATRINA" began...
It is necessary to say, that subs go on a battle service usually in the single. Less often — in pairs. And here in ocean left almost
whole full division: K - 299, K - 244, K - 298 , K - 255 and K - 524.
For "Corner" — as our submariners call the Scandinavian peninsula — division was put forward by a usual way.
Therefore probable opponent, for which, certainly, the disappearance from base remained to five "units" noticed, was not so disturbed.
Go by a well known track — and good. The analysts from Pentagun could even predict, in what area of Atlantic send "Soviets".
But this time they is healthy have miscalculated. Per the agreed day, at the nominated hour of a nuclear underwater o'clock have
turned « all suddenly ». The veil quickly displaced on W.... was formed of a marching column — pleased stretched in time and space ...
Besides other tasks before a veil there was a purpose to open underwater and surface navigable conditions in that part of ocean,
which was badly covered by other means of sea investigation. Running forward, I shall notice: this task was completely executed. I
received the reports on many contacts with SSN USA and United Kingdom, which were developed those days on the Atlantic theatre.
Certainly, and our boats have not remained without attention. Rather concerned of themes, that whole division of nuclear underwater
cruisers USSR with anybody by the unknown purposes goes to coast of America, goes covertly, my colleagues - contenders from
Pentagun have thrown on search of a veil of tens patrol planes, powerful ASW of force.
Later commanders reported me, that was at times impossible going PD, during communication, or to lift shaft snorkhel for pump of
air in cylinders high pressure tanks. It was the real hunting with application of all means of search and detection SSN. Worked ESM
and radars, surface hydrolocators pinged ultrasonic beams of depth of Atlantic. The planes of base and deck patrol aircraft turned
above ocean round the clock, exposing barriers sonobuoys, using in all modes the onboard search equipment: MAD, IR, indicators of a
biotrace...
Worked hydrophones of system of distant hydroacoustic supervision and space means of investigation. But passed day, second,
and the traces missed SSNs formation were not found out anywhere. Really — in water dissolved .
Within eight day American ASW of force did not know, where there are our ships. In the meantime they have come in Sargass the
sea, in notorious Bermood a triangle, where year a SSBN K - 219 back was lost, and, not reaching some tens miles up to British Naval
Base Hamilthon (since 1940 on her are based the American ships and planes), again in which times, abruptly have changed a rate.
Soon chief of investigation Northern fleet has reported to me, that from Norfolk send on search of group Schevtchenko, six SSN. It
not including what already were on usual battle patroling in Atlantic. On search ours subs three squadrons ASW of planes three CVBG
(one of them English led by Carrier such as "«Invincible"), three ships of distant hydroacoustic investigation such as "Stalwart" were
thrown in addition.
The Americans not absolutely correctly classified ours subs, having determined them as only SSBN. And was reported to the
president of USA Reygan: Russian SSBNs are in dangerous affinity from coast of America. That is why against us the so large ASW
forces were directed. They pursued group of the captain 1 rank Schevtchenko almost on all a return way.
To come off this ASW hunters, to be covered from its means of active search, I have permitted to the commanders to apply devices
false signals, which are supplied SSN with. They shot simulators of noise SSN, forcing down the persecutors from a true rate. The
purposes masking maneuverable actions SSN were used and LSZ — false contact device. Were applied etc. ways and means of
introduction of the opponent in error.

Fortunately, on this times fortune to us was mercy. All five SSNs safely have returned to base. I think, business here not only in luck.
Have defined success careful preparation for operation and high training of crews.
The commanders SSN were awarded with awards of a Red Banner. Have received the governmental awards and other officers and
mitchmans, distinguished in it heavy three-monthly navigation.
Besides the important items of information about ASW forces and means of the probable opponent in Atlantic, which were received
as a result of operation "ATRINA", the campaign had also large moral - psychological meaning for our submariners who have deeply
survived recent destruction strategic SSBN K-219. From a fatal exit "Komsomoletz SSN ('Mike' NATO Code)" us separated then two
years, and we with lawful pride celebrated a victory in this « to small fight for Atlantic », as for fun assigned operation "ATRINA" its
participants.
Analyzing its results, I was once again convinced: the Americans have not enough for the complete control above ocean in case of a
mass exit SSNs and SSBNs of forces. Anyway at Pentagun there are no guarantees, that developed prior to the beginning battle
actions Soviet nuclear submarines will be found out before drawing by them of answer-back impact.
Americans of the similar doctrines did not spend. At presence Naval bases, scattered worldwide, the need in the similar actions at
them no. Us, that is called, the geography has forced.
The application of the then General secretary Y.A. Andropow that, despite of the underwater system, developed against us, "Trident
SLBMs", at us is an opportunity to put impact of punishment on territory of USA. Was confirmed, including and results of the finished
operation. Andropow a any more was not in alive, when the awards give have handed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excuse for translation....

[feld]

One potential reference is Norman Friedman's Seapower and Space. It describes the historical uses of space systems (US, NATO, and Soviet primarily) in naval warfare. It's slightly dated (2000) but there are several copies are available below.

Amazon US link (http://www.amazon.com/Seapower-Space-Missile-Net-Centric-Warfare/dp/1557508976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219421910&sr=8-1)

Amazon UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/026-9209507-2407621?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=seapower+and+space)

I've run across some old threads on this board with respect to Over The Horizon targeting (OTH-T) for the OSCAR class. Someone mentioned her Punch Bowl antenna. I *think* the book discusses this system a little.

-feld

[feld]

I like to provide realistic neutral traffic in scenarios. Maps like the one below indicate (generally) the routes along which worldwide shipping moves. I do *not* know if this map is only ships or if it also includes intercontinental air traffic. But I figure a Great Circle route is a Great Circle route and use the map below to get a general idea of what directions the merchants in my scenarios should be heading.

http://cominganarchy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/footprint2.gif

If anyone has better maps or maps of fishing densities that would be great to!!!


-feld

edit - added uncertainty about air traffic

[Fish]

Welcome feld.
Where did you find that map, was looking for maps like that in the past.

[feld]

Welcome feld.
Where did you find that map, was looking for maps like that in the past.

<grin> Thanks for the welcome, actually been around for quite a while...just lurking below comms depth.

I got that picture from here:

http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/26/the-human-footprint-on-earth/

The website states that the image came from an article (I should have cited it directly, excuse me):

Kareiva, P., et al. (2007) Domesticated Nature: Shaping Landscapes and Ecosystems for Human Welfare. Science 316, 1866

I have not looked at the reference, so I cannot judge it's accuracy. But it suffices for my rough purposes.

-feld

[feld]

Best summary of US Navy side of the Cold War ASW I've ever read. A little dated but very approachable. Only tells the US side of the story...but still very interesting. Link below:


The Third Battle: Innovation (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/cold-war-asw.html)



in the U.S. Navy's Silent

Cold War Struggle

with Soviet Submarines

(http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/cold-war-asw.html)



March 2000
Dr. Owen R. Cote, Jr.

-feld

[feld]

This wikipedia entry contains incidences of piracy off the Somali coast. NATO vessels are frequently involved in the rescue of these crews. The pirates are not particularly well equipped in these stories...but this might serve as an interesting mission set for some designer out there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_pirates

There are many other instances of piracy every year all over the world.
International Maritime Bureau Live Piracy Map 2008 (http://www.icc-ccs.org/extra/display.php?yr=2008)
South China Sea (http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2003/04/28/daily83.html)

Seems like good stuff for you P-3, SH-60, and FFG drivers out there

r/
feld

[feld]

Saw this on the news today and thought that some enterprising FFG mission builder might be interested.

Sub with cocaine seized off Costa Rica (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15811689/)

R/
feld