Cold Waters Update: Narwhal

[Killerfish Games]

We just finished importing the new and improved ship models into the game and we're pleased to announce that the Narwhal class has made it in as an additional playable submarine. This brings the final list of playable submarines to:

Skipjack
Permit (Thresher)
Sturgeon
Narwhal
Los Angeles

Here's a few screenshots of the Narwhal cruising the icy north.


http://cdn.edgecast.steamstatic.com/steamcommunity/public/images/clans/27768464/bfa348ebd237856ab58389f04a18f88f9c4482a2.jpg


http://cdn.edgecast.steamstatic.com/steamcommunity/public/images/clans/27768464/1479c0d3a47901f9927e8ac38a69108007e35f4b.jpg

[ikalugin]

Looks shiny. Can't wait for the Soviet campaighn.

[FPSchazly]

Wow, the Narwhal looks like quite the capable boat from its Wikipedia page! So, what's to make people play as something other than the Narwhal all the time?

[the one below]

Looking great guys! Can't wait to play!

[zachanscom]

looking real nice. love those icebergs. but subs look kinda polygonal near the top, should it be flat like that?

[Oberon]

looking real nice. love those icebergs. but subs look kinda polygonal near the top, should it be flat like that?

You mean on the deck? That's normal, it's easier for the crew to walk on for one thing. You can just about make it out in this pic:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0867112.jpg

[zachanscom]

oh i see, i guess there should be smoothing group on that edge? looks too sharp is all.

[Nippelspanner]

Getting really interested in this game, will most likely get it.
Keep it up!

[qiaoyech]

Good work mate! Can't wait getting my hands on this!:Kaleun_Salute:

[zachanscom]

what about translucent water and 3d water deformation around geometry for local objects like the game spin tires: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WS9YlJDa6Y from the testing phase. the final version looks a lot better with correct foam texture, splash particles, etc

[Hawk66]

I really love that scenery with the icebergs :up:

[Hawk66]

by the way, is 3D the main view or is it also possible that you can put the tactical (map) view as it + make usage of several sub-views (sonar conditions etc., weapon control) like in RedStormRising?

[Julhelm]

The 3D is the main view, but you can maximize the tactical map and perform most tasks from there.

The HUD layout is persistent so regardless of if you are in 3D or in the map, you still have access to SVP display, narrowband/sonar comparison, stores and damage control.

It is however more immersive to play in the 3D view once you get used to the idea of being the sub instead of being in the sub.

[Hawk66]

Ok.

I'd have a feature request :), even if it does not make it in the release version.

The manual of RedStormRising mentions that it could occur that there would be the chance that in a tactical battle also other NATO submarines are present (like that scene in Clancy's novel in the Norwegian sea).

I have the suspicion that this was never implemented, since I played that game like hell and had never such a situation. But it would enhance the game play...not only concerning the atmosphere but also that you cannot assume that all contacts are hostiles...

[RushTheBus]

They've said that all NATO assets are abstracted on the campaign map but won't see them in the 3D world. That undertaking is a very tall order, especially considering how close to release they are. It has been mentioned that there is great potential for a variety of post release content (soviet campaign, other US subs and even other NATO countries).

[makman94]

Is available any video of gameplay for this game ?

[makman94]

Is available any video of gameplay for this game ?

:Kaleun_Periskop:

[Julhelm]

No not yet. We were going to, but we're just too busy actually finishing the game. Maybe next week we can get to it.

[Kaye T. Bai]

Looks nice! :up:

[makman94]

No not yet. We were going to, but we're just too busy actually finishing the game. Maybe next week we can get to it.

are you planing of showing the gameplay of the game any time before release ,Julhelm?

[Julhelm]

Well we need to shoot a new trailer anyway, so likely gameplay video will be shot at the same time. So many things to do, so little time :(

[Hawk66]

take your time :)

I've just seen this http://steamcommunity.com/games/541210/announcements/detail/1285059265447290222

The 3D stuff looks really great but I hope you have similar map and tactical displays (e.g. torpedo attack, defense, environmental conditions) like in RSR since this is - concerning the game play more important ?

The inclusion of two campaigns is cool...is the 68' one related a bit to Vietnam or is the news article just a teaser to get into the '68 setting?

[Julhelm]

We have the tactical display and environmental display + acoustic signature and sonar comparison which should be familiar for anyone who has played Red Storm Rising. Where in RSR you had different screens to focus on tactical situation, guiding weapons or evading torpedoes, our tactical display combines all those functions since you can pan, zoom and interact with it (which was not possible in RSR). You can maximize the tactical map for a better overview, and the other displays are available as contextual pop-up displays that can be hidden as necessary. While you can play the entire game from the maximized tactical map, it is intended to be played from the 3D view, much like Tom Clancy's SSN but with RSR realism.

[Julhelm]

Here is an example of how the UI works. On the left is the tactical map that shows the evolving tactical situation. The 3D world only shows enemies that you have a solid TMA solution on, while weaker tracks only show up as markers on the map.

On the right is the sonar screen, which allows you to see the strength of the contact on different arrays, as well as shows the estimated enemy sonar performance against you, based on the TMA solution.

You may see that I've just fired a torpedo against the enemy sub, and a waypoint is provided that can be moved in order to perform a corrected intercept. The yellow lines on the tacmap are active sonar emissions detected by your onboard WLR-9 active sonar intercept gear. It also detects emissions from incoming (active) torpedoes, which show up as red lines. If you raise the ESM mast, purple lines indicate radar emissions.

On a real sub all of these would be displayed on individual CRTs manned by individual crew members, but for the sake of playability we elected to combine everything into one display.

[Hawk66]

looks neat. And you can completely replace the 3d view with the tactical map like in DW, right ?

[Julhelm]

You can maximise it and play the game that way but it is recommended to play from the 3d view.

[Nippelspanner]

I still struggle to imagine how the gameplay works out to be honest.
While everything looks really nice, what I've seen so far strikes me as rather simple, lacking depth in gameplay mechanics, as if it results in a simple "point & click" game, where the player does not need to be skilled at all - and that kinda worries me.

It's really time for some gameplay videos, I think.

[Julhelm]

That is not the case. The interface is simple but the gameplay is tactically serious, to the point where if you are not careful and pay attention to details, you will die.

What it does not do is play anything like Dangerous Waters in that it is not a full-on procedural simulator. If you really have to manually monitor sonar screens or perform the entire TMA procedure yourself, this does not do that. It doesn't replace DW, nor is it intended to. We designed it to offer a different perspective on underwater combat than what DW does.

[Nippelspanner]

Thanks for getting back at me.

I'm aware it's not like DW - and that's perfectly fine.
However, my point is that it seems(!) that the game simply doesn't offer much depth. As in... what is there to DO for the player?
It seems like you swim around, by ordering a course similar to DW I would guess, your crew will tell you if something's around and automatically gets resolved if you're close enough/collect enough data and then you engage, or not.
But... what's there to do, to experience, besides that?

Don't get me wrong, I just struggle to get behind what you showed us so far, as screenshots and descriptions of the gameplay just don't cut it.
Didn't you guys want to release some gameplay footage?
And frankly, why didn't you yet?
It doesn't have to be anything fancy, a simply dubbed gameplay video showing an attack procedure for example would be enough for everyone here who is curious about this title, I guess.

When a developer doesn't release any videos with gameplay these days, my boat gets rigged to red alert automatically - that's why I'm asking.

[Hawk66]

@Nippelspanner:

Have you played the original RedStormRising ? If not, I'd recommend it to you...from the interface/description/images I've seen, this will be RedStormRising 2 actually with another name.

RedStormRising has a very tense atmosphere, in my view it is still the best (modern) subsim out there, so far. The AI is also very good, since - in contract to DW - it does not consist of isolated doctrine scripts but uses real-world Soviet ASW tactics (the algorithms were provided by Larry Bond - if I'm not wrong).

If the game is done right, the depth comes from the gameplay and the tactical decision you make. You play the captain and have a (reliable) auto-crew, which does do Sonar, TMA etc.

DW has its root as a procedural trainer...that's the reason why you never have the feeling you're the captain of the sub. It excels as a platform simulator but not in being a captain of a sub.

[Julhelm]

Well we're still sorting out some stupid bugs and balancing the AI, which is why we don't want to shoot video until all that works properly. And given that we're pushing 100hr weeks at this point we just haven't had the time to shoot videos and narrate them.

So in the game, you don't just order a course. You control the sub with the planes and ballast, so there's a definite skill element in getting the sub where you want it.

So what is there to experience?

Well, first of all you get a damage control metagame similar to what you have in Silent Hunter, where subsystems get damaged and you have to prioritize repairs, trim the boat to control flooding.

In the campaign, we have made intelligent Soviets that will adapt their tactics to NATO performance. Depending on the war situation, they may try to launch amphibious landings, they will send out ASW groups to hunt you down, and they will try to interdict NATO convoys, as well as try to gain more ground in Central Europe. There's an entire war going on that you get to influence through your performance (or lack thereof) and this is really the main feature of the game.

FPSChazly did a let's play on Tom Clancy's SSN a while back. If you watch that, it should give you some idea what our game is about. It plays much like that, but with more in-depth weapons, sensors and AI modelling.

[Hawk66]

100 hr week...that's crazy :). Pls don't rush things...we've waited 30 years for a successor...we can wait a bit longer

You don't plan to do a beta to get testers on board ?

I'd volunteer ;)

[Nippelspanner]

Ok, Ok, Ok! :haha:

That sounds pretty good and I'm glad to hear all that.
Now stop whining about a 100hrs week and work harder...



:O:

[ikalugin]

Makes me wonder if you would use updated sources for Soviet ASW tactics for this game.

That and when/if Soviet campaighn would be availiable :)

[Julhelm]

The one we relied on most was Soviet Naval Tactics by Milan Vego, USNI press.

[ikalugin]

Nothing on the Soviet campaighn though? :)

[Julhelm]

We haven't started on a soviet campaign yet. Modelling all the Nato ships to the current standard is not a trivial undertaking.

[ikalugin]

Makes sense, you have to work for your release. Are there any estimates regarding any follow up campaighns post release?

[Julhelm]

Yes, if it does well, we want to support it by releasing expansion campaigns. Obviously a Soviet campaign is a major priority, but this is a longer term project due to how many NATO assets have to be modelled. For the initial release, we have 50 classes of Soviet ships and submarines modelled, to give some idea of the scope of things.

Speaking of which, do you know of any good sources on Soviet tactics that are more recent than early 90's?

[ikalugin]

Speaking of which, do you know of any good sources on Soviet tactics that are more recent than early 90's? I can try to look into if I could find any good reference materials (but sadly I am VERY lazy). Can you read Russian? In general I can help with minor key consulting stuff, but I guess you guys are covered on that front so you wont have a need for the underqualified arms chair captain such as myself.

Yes, if it does well, we want to support it by releasing expansion campaigns. Obviously a Soviet campaign is a major priority, but this is a longer term project due to how many NATO assets have to be modelled. For the initial release, we have 50 classes of Soviet ships and submarines modelled, to give some idea of the scope of things.That would be nice. What is the time frame considered, ie would it be within the company's intent to expand into late 80s/early 90s?

[Julhelm]

Well, I always thought an SSN-like scenario in the Spratlys would be nice with our dynamic campaign system. Or a mercenary-type campaign channeling Strike Commander. Only the imagination is a limiting factor here.

[ikalugin]

Well, I always thought an SSN-like scenario in the Spratlys would be nice with our dynamic campaign system. Or a mercenary-type campaign channeling Strike Commander. Only the imagination is a limiting factor here.
True, sadly a lot of cool 4th generation projects sort of died with the cold war on both sides of the iron curtain.
as well as try to gain more ground in Central Europe.
What do you model this on? The big weakness of the original RSR book was how poorly they described the land war in Europe.

[Julhelm]

Well, we now know the Soviet Union always planned for a massive use of conventional- and rocket artillery along with liberal use of tactical nuclear and chemical weapons to soften up the NATO defenses, so any real war would likely be a very quick affair.

Our scenario and the way the war plays out is less Clancy and more influenced by Sir Hacket's WW3 and Harvey Black's 'Effect' trilogy. A realistic conflict might be over in days, but this hardly makes for an exciting campaign, so in the game it takes place over a period of a few weeks to several months, depending on the breaks.

[ikalugin]

Well, we now know the Soviet Union always planned for a massive use of conventional- and rocket artillery along with liberal use of tactical nuclear and chemical weapons to soften up the NATO defenses, so any real war would likely be a very quick affair.
This is dependent on the time period, ie look up how doctrine changed by Zapad-77 and then Zapad-81 exercises.

Our scenario and the way the war plays out is less Clancy and more influenced by Sir Hacket's WW3 and Harvey Black's 'Effect' trilogy. A realistic conflict might be over in days, but this hardly makes for an exciting campaign, so in the game it takes place over a period of a few weeks to several months, depending on the breaks.
Heh, did you ever try The Red Army?

[Hawk66]

Clancy's vision of a war in central Europe was not unrealistic. The Soviets had several war plans, also pure-conventional ones.

Clancy's suspicion that the Warsaw Pact states, which shared a border with West Germany, would be reluctant to agree to use weapons of mass destructions, was right, I guess.

There are strong indications for instance that Czechoslovakia might not have particpated in a conflict between NATO and WP. The unity between the WP states was only strong on paper.

[ikalugin]

There are strong indications for instance that Czechoslovakia might not have particpated in a conflict between NATO and WP. The unity between the WP states was only strong on paper. This depends on the time period. In the relevant time frame (from late 70s and through 80s till the end of the cold war) it was assumed that Czeckoslovakia would participate in the WP offensive and defensive operation as required.

They were to form their own Front patern formation with the Soviet Army patern formation in it (in peace time Ground of Soviet Forces), same with Polish except that Soviet forces in Poland were under a purelly peacetime organisation and de facto were a part of GSVG.

[Breakerchase]

Hello. I'd like to chip in some information in this conversation, although it has periphery relevance to Cold Waters.

The most prominent sources I've come across (there may be others) describing a Soviet European offensive with heavy NBC participation would be Wilbur Gray's article arguing that the Soviets restored to a nuclear-heavy war plan in the face of a supposed NATO conventional superiority, (rather sensationalist) news articles about the "Seven Days to the Rhine war plan", and some academic articles arguing that DDR on Warsaw Pact military exercises was evidence that the a nuclear first-strike war plan. I found the 1st to be deficient in its understanding of Soviet military art, the second to be sensationalism, and the third (as pointed out in this page (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb285/)) a "confusion between first-strike and "preemption"; the latter meant "attempting to strike an enemy that is preparing to a launch a nuclear strike before he is able to launch."

To paraphrase the readings on Soviet military art from the Soviet Army Studies Office (SASO), the Soviet Studies Research Centre (SSRC), David Glantz's articles, and the Voroshilov Lectures book series, the Soviet military adopted a "nuclear only" option during the 1960s under Khrushchev. Following his downfall, the Soviets expected waging either full-scale nuclear war or large-scale conventional war in a "nuclear-scared context", albeit for a clear preference for the conventional. During the late 1970s and the early 1980s, military reforms under Marshal Ogarkov refined the Soviet military towards conventional mechanized warfare. By the end of the 1980s, Soviet military theorists believed that next-gen Western systems (SADARM, the E-8 JSTARS plane, the canceled "Assault Breaker" etc) and "weapons of new physical principles" were going to make traditional mechanized forces in NATO and Warsaw Pact armies obsolete.

IMO, the Soviet would only use nuclear weapons in (1) in the face of a NATO/Chinese offensive that would threaten the Soviet homeland, and (2) if NATO was going to launch a massive and effective tactical-theater nuclear strike (the Voroshilov book pointed out that the Soviets might have tolerated limited NATO nuclear escalation to show resolve, albeit they doubted it would say limited for long). On the contrary, instead of "restoring momentum" to a conventional attack, nukes would generate large zones of destruction that would impede rapid forward movement--think about how nukes would block roads in forested and close terrain, and create unpredictability for military planners and the state leadership. As for chemical weapons, the Sovietologist Chris Donnelly argued that they would slow down the rate of advance and NATO might escalate with nukes, meaning that they (like nukes) was more of a fear and deterrent weapon.

I'd argue that Ralph Peters' 1989 novel Red Army represents the most "believable" NATO-WP war scenario in fiction--it's quite clear he was reading similar source material as SASO's and SSRC's Sovietologists. However, the story ends on the third day of the war with a unilateral West German ceasefire...

[Julhelm]

The Cold Waters campaign plays out as a conventional war, with the risk of going nuclear towards the end.

[ikalugin]

The Cold Waters campaign plays out as a conventional war, with the risk of going nuclear towards the end.
Would this affect the ammo loadouts for the Soviet vessels?

[Julhelm]

Yeah, we don't do nuclear-tipped weapons in the game. Isn't much fun to be on the receiving end of several kilotons.

[Giesemaschine]

You guys have quickly become my favorite developer and I am eagerly awaiting this release. From what I've gathered, it sounds like RSR and Tom Clancy's SSN hooked up and had a baby called Cold Waters :Kaleun_Applaud::up: I have a feeling this is going to provide more than enough tense moments than even the saltiest sub-driver can shake his periscope at. It's a must-buy for me.

Atlantic Fleet ranks up there as one of the best naval games I have played next to Aces of the Deep and SH:CE. That is saying a lot, believe me!

Now if we could only get the "Atlantic Fleet" work-over on Pacific Fleet and release it for PC.... :03::yeah:

P.S. Love the art-style, especially the color palette and icebergs - thanks for the wallpaper!