New Cold Waters Screenshots

[Julhelm]

I posted these on the Subsim fb page but not everyone might lurk there so posting here as well:

[schurem]

that looks soooooo yummy :D i cant wait to get my hands on this :D

:up:

[zachanscom]

what engine? unity? looks nice. hopefully more next gen techs are employed. that explosion is a particle based or sprite? it looks so lifelike

[Julhelm]

Yes, it's Unity.

All of our explosions use a combination of particles and stock footage. My opinion is that nothing looks more convincing than footage of a real explosion.

[Castout]

Unleash the Kraken!!!

...I mean Cold Waters hehehe

[Kaye T. Bai]

Nice, especially that there Kirov-class battlecruiser. :up:

[Giesemaschine]

Thank you! I deleted my FB years ago and not everyone uses it these days :):Kaleun_Cheers:

[Nippelspanner]

One suggestion.
Can you guys add the class designations at the end of each class?

For example Los Angeles SSN, Grisha III FF and so on.
Personally, I would have to research what a Leninskiy Komsomol is.

[denis_469]

One suggestion.
Can you guys add the class designations at the end of each class?

For example Los Angeles SSN, Grisha III FF and so on.
Personally, I would have to research what a Leninskiy Komsomol is.

November is sibmarine. Cargo ship was Leninskiy Komsomol.

[Nippelspanner]

November is sibmarine. Cargo ship was Leninskiy Komsomol.
*sigh*
See that dot on the horizon, slowly disappearing?
That was my point - you missed it.

[ikalugin]

Well atleast they are not using the original Soviet terminology which is completely alien to the western player that they target.

[Nippelspanner]

Well atleast they are not using the original Soviet terminology which is completely alien to the western player that they target.
хахаха

[FPSchazly]

One suggestion.
Can you guys add the class designations at the end of each class?

For example Los Angeles SSN, Grisha III FF and so on.
Personally, I would have to research what a Leninskiy Komsomol is.

I agree, I like this idea.

Well atleast they are not using the original Soviet terminology which is completely alien to the western player that they target.

That would definitely be interesting for a Soviet campaign if all Soviet terminology was used.

[ETR3(SS)]

Well atleast they are not using the original Soviet terminology which is completely alien to the western player that they target.
That would make a good toggle option, or perhaps a simple mod to change names.

[Nippelspanner]

That would make a good toggle option, or perhaps a simple mod to change names.
From what I've gathered, this could be edited in a heartbeat, but I still think it should be vanilla - at best a toggle option, so everyone can decide for himself, yes.

[ETR3(SS)]

The best option for making it vanilla in my opinion would be to bring it out if/when they make a soviet campaign. Also, I agree with your comment about platform references next to the names. I had a hard time remembering what platform a given name was even when I was in the Navy.

[ikalugin]

I had a hard time remembering what platform a given name was even when I was in the Navy.
You mean class names or names of specific platforms?

[Julhelm]

Actually the unit reference does use the soviet terminology, since it is much easier to understand the roles of the ships.

[Nippelspanner]

Actually the unit reference does use the soviet terminology, since it is much easier to understand the roles of the ships.

No word on adding designations next to the class?

[Julhelm]

The unit reference/museum has the sovit designations. Large anti-submarine ship, patrol ship, military transport etc.

[Nippelspanner]

I was talking about this...

One suggestion.
Can you guys add the class designations at the end of each class?

For example Los Angeles SSN, Grisha III FF and so on.
Personally, I would have to research what a Leninskiy Komsomol is.

[Julhelm]

I don't understand. All you have to do in the game is visit this page, where you can view every object in the game and it tells you exactly what it is, like so:

http://www.ducker.se/images/CWUI/unitref.png

I even wrote detailed descriptions for each entry, which is more than you get in contemporary sims like SH3-5:

http://www.ducker.se/images/CWUI/unitref2.png

[Nippelspanner]

That's awesome. But having to look in some library, interrupting gameplay, doesn't strike me as a good idea. That info should be available at once.

Here's my reasoning.
As a skipper it is ultimately more important to know "Ok, this is a frigate, over there is a merchant, and this contact is some ssn" rather than "oh, this is the (insert Russian name)... I guess it's a cargo vessel? I wouldn't know..."

Situational awareness is key, I assume in your game as well?

[Julhelm]

You can't get there in mid gameplay, so instead you can go there after doing a couple of tutorials, look through all of the units, familiarize yourself with them and so on. The thing with western designations for soviet ships is that they don't really work, because the soviet roles are completely different. What you really want to know is who has SS-N-14? Who has VDS? Who has the more capable sonar set? Class designations won't tell you that.

Btw, all of you guys have spent lots of time learning the ins and outs of the various platforms in DW. Surely you can learn a few ships by name.

[Nippelspanner]

You can't get there in mid gameplay
Which makes it even worse, and underlines the usefulness of the suggested feature even more.


The thing with western designations for soviet ships is that they don't really work, because the soviet roles are completely different. What you really want to know is who has SS-N-14? Who has VDS? Who has the more capable sonar set? Class designations won't tell you that.

Btw, all of you guys have spent lots of time learning the ins and outs of the various platforms in DW. Surely you can learn a few ships by name.
Arguable.
While the Russians have different approaches, that doesn't render it into "not working" for NATO designations - otherwise why does the NATO still use them? Bureaucracy?
Russians designate their Typhoon-class submarines as "TK", which means heavy cruiser if I am not mistaken.
NATO stamps SSBN on it, because, well, it is an SSBN, a nuclear submarine with ballistic missiles, and that's what matters initially.

Priority:
1. What type am I facing? (SSN, FFG, CG, ...)
2. What class am I facing? (Specific systems)

Of course, that is only my opinion, but as you see other veteran players agree that the NATO designations are a good idea... actually I don't see how they cannot be in a game where you control NATO vessels.
Makes no sense to me.
Additionally, not having these designations instantly make it appear somewhat... arcadeish.

However: Your game, your call, I'm out.


PS: Quite easy to lure some new screenshots out of you! :O:

[Julhelm]

I guess Fast Attack was arcadish too since its plot didn't have type designations either?

http://www.ducker.se/images/CWUI/giuk_plot.jpg

[Nippelspanner]

I guess Fast Attack was arcadish too since its plot didn't have type designations either?
No - but that proves that FA wasn't perfect in every way. :O:

Listen, I made a suggestion as an avid naval gamer. Others seem to like it.
Do it, ignore it. Your call.
I'm looking forward to your game either way and I'm sure it will be great.
No need for a debate.

[FPSchazly]

I personally like the idea. I thought SSN or DW did this, but it seems like they didn't. Maybe for the warships, it's easier to remember what they are. But seeing classes like Boris Chilikin or Ivan Rogov, it's hard to remember exactly what they are.

[Nippelspanner]

I personally like the idea. I thought SSN or DW did this, but it seems like they didn't. Maybe for the warships, it's easier to remember what they are. But seeing classes like Boris Chilikin or Ivan Rogov, it's hard to remember exactly what they are.
SSN is an arcade game anyways, but DW sure does man.
(upper left?)

http://i.imgur.com/d3MRNO4.png

[Julhelm]

SSN isn't as arcade as it looks. When you go up against the more capable enemies like Akulas and Kilos it can be very challenging. Its main shortcomings were the poorly done surface forces and helicopters which always felt like they didn't have time to complete those features.

In fact, I liked SSN so much and it did so much right that it is one of the major influences on Cold Waters; the others being Red Storm Rising and Fast Attack.

Also, the reason the designations are not there is because none of the sub games that influenced us had them, and so it never occured to us. We've also had to shorten the unit names anyway to fit our minimalist GUI, and I have about 10gb worth of UI concepts to not want to redesign it again.

[Julhelm]

I personally like the idea. I thought SSN or DW did this, but it seems like they didn't. Maybe for the warships, it's easier to remember what they are. But seeing classes like Boris Chilikin or Ivan Rogov, it's hard to remember exactly what they are.
Remember that our models are orders of magnitude more accurate than what is in DW, so if you are unsure what a unit is, you can just move the camera over to it and see what radars and weapons it has. Unlike in Silent Hunter, our models don't have generic parts, and so all launchers and turrets are readily recognizable.

[Nippelspanner]

SSN isn't as arcade as it looks. When you go up against the more capable enemies like Akulas and Kilos it can be very challenging.

With that logic, Super Mario Kart is not as arcade as it looks because the Donut Plains track is very challenging.
I think this isn't how it works.
Arcade doesn't imply difficulty, it implies (lack of) authenticity and level of realism.


Its main shortcomings were the poorly done surface forces and helicopters which always felt like they didn't have time to complete those features.

In fact, I liked SSN so much and it did so much right that it is one of the major influences on Cold Waters; the others being Red Storm Rising and Fast Attack.
Well that's your opinion and I respect it. But I sure do not agree, but that's of no matter, of course.


Also, the reason the designations are not there is because none of the sub games that influenced us had them, and so it never occured to us.
What sort of reasoning is that?
"Let's not do something because the predecessors didn't have it"?
I really do not see how this is helpful when developing a title - but you're the game developer, not me.


We've also had to shorten the unit names anyway to fit our minimalist GUI, and I have about 10gb worth of UI concepts to not want to redesign it again.Well, that sounds more reasonable indeed. But is adding a maximum of 4 digits (space and 2-3 letters) really pushing the boundaries when we have platforms with long Russian Names instead of, usual, short NATO class designations, combined with the type designation (SSN, ...)?

One last question, is this moddable?
Can I expect to find the units in form of a text file which contains the data and info, along with the designation?
Because then I really do not care further, I have no problems doing want I'd like to see in games myself - if possible.

[Julhelm]

We've actually shortened a lot of the long russian names that clipped the class display. Those screenshots are a few months old. And yes they are moddable so you can rename them into what you want.

And you're wrong on SSN. It's not meant to be a sim - the interview with Clancy and Littlejohns (RN submarine commander who was the chief designer) makes it clear that they wanted to make a visualisation of the tactical picture that exists only in the skippers' mind. If you play the game, you will find the enemy subs exhibit rather realistic behaviors - they use thermal layers to hide from you, they perform baffle checks and use sprint and drift tactics against you, to name a few. I would say it requires more tactics to win against the enemies in SSN than it does in stock SH4.

[Nippelspanner]

And you're wrong on SSN. It's not meant to be a sim
And I never claimed it said so?
Interestingly enough though, you are mistaken.
It is officially a simulation, or it claims to be (I don't think it is, looking at the gameplay, hence I said I find it to be arcade).
But as I have learned, my opinion is wrong.
Can't argue against that, I guess.

I would say it requires more tactics to win against the enemies in SSN than it does in stock SH4.
And I would blindly agree, since SHIV is a Ubisoft title. Fancy on the outside, garbage on the inside.


Look, I really don't see the issue.
I made a suggestion, others like it, you don't.
Mentioning that other naval sims do use NATO designations too was merely one supportive argument, not sure why this became the topic suddenly.

[Julhelm]

Can't argue against that, I guess.
I played through the entire game and didn't find it to be mindless or arcade. Perhaps you can call it a lite sim. The aforementioned interview (https://youtu.be/VTS4vrpRwgc) as well as the intro video starring mr Clancy himself seem to support this notion.


Look, I really don't see the issue.
I made a suggestion, others like it, you don't.
Mentioning that other naval sims do use NATO designations too was merely one supportive argument, not sure why this became the topic suddenly.
I'm all for suggestions, but you make it sound like this is some kind of dealbreaker which I find to be unjust. Especially since we took care to have accurately formated radio messages and even the news updates are written in an authentic 80's style.

[Nippelspanner]

I played through the entire game and didn't find it to be mindless or arcade. Perhaps you can call it a lite sim.
That term fits rather well, yes!


I'm all for suggestions, but you make it sound like this is some kind of dealbreaker which I find to be unjust.
Honestly, then you're reading things into my messages I never said.
Because what I said was:
I'm looking forward to your game either way and I'm sure it will be great.
And also mentioned multiple times that I do not care as long as it is moddable, which it is - so all good.


Especially since we took care to have accurately formated radio messages and even the news updates are written in an authentic 80's style.
Interesting fact here.
When I saw screenshots showing what you just mentioned, I made the decision to buy it. The art-style is right on and I love details like the radio message NATO format etc. This is what makes games rich, in my opinion.
I just wonder why you bring it up. I didn't complain about any of that, didn't even mention it, nor did I say your game is arcadeish altogether.

My argument was just that not having the designations makes a modern naval game appear a little arcade (in that regard, not overall), as if it doesn't matter that your target is a SSN, FFG, or whatever - when this is of utmost importance.
Not sure if you see my point, but that's really it. Never said anything about deal breaking. Or it being a big deal in the first place.

Just something that caught my eye.

[FPSchazly]

SSN is an arcade game anyways, but DW sure does man.
(upper left?)

Yeah, it does it for ownship like that, and maybe with truth on, but it doesn't do it for non-truth contacts. It just says "KASHIN" for example.

SSN isn't as arcade as it looks. When you go up against the more capable enemies like Akulas and Kilos it can be very challenging. Its main shortcomings were the poorly done surface forces and helicopters which always felt like they didn't have time to complete those features.

In fact, I liked SSN so much and it did so much right that it is one of the major influences on Cold Waters; the others being Red Storm Rising and Fast Attack.

Also, the reason the designations are not there is because none of the sub games that influenced us had them, and so it never occured to us. We've also had to shorten the unit names anyway to fit our minimalist GUI, and I have about 10gb worth of UI concepts to not want to redesign it again.

I was going to ask if it was a question of redesigning things, and I can completely understand not wanting to open up a huge can of worms at the last second lol.

[Julhelm]

I guess I just have a conditioned response to hearing the term 'arcade' from years of hearing it thrown about as an insult on sim forums. Sorry about that.

It's not a bad point but we never noticed this, and putting it in there means redesigning the minimap/data window which we just don't have the time to do anymore, since we're already delayed by several months :(

Right now we're working overtime crushing bugs, balancing the gameplay and making sure the game is challenging and entertaining.

At least contacts get denoted S for sonar, E for ESM, R for radar, V for visual and M for master.

[Nippelspanner]

I guess I just have a conditioned response to hearing the term 'arcade' from years of hearing it thrown about as an insult on sim forums. Sorry about that.
No problem.

[ETR3(SS)]

You mean class names or names of specific platforms?Class names. When your driving you don't care so much what is named what, when you get moved to a more tactical position you start to learn more. I just didn't have enough time to learn them all.

[Julhelm]

So actually it turns out we could add this with code so that the designations show up in the signature window. We've always had the NATO designations in the actual ship files, since they are used in the mission generation code.

[stormrider_sp]

Is it possible to change the map symbology to NTDS?

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/litesmth/wargamingconz/images/symbols.jpg

[Julhelm]

For the strategic map, sure. I actually have an NTDS icon set made for it that could be released as a mod. For the ingame tactical plot no, since all of my research indicates the Mk81 FC display is not an NTDS display console, nor were the earlier Mk113 CRT's.