Readying ASM and Bomb 6 hr?

[kilorocky]

Quick question, does it really take that long? and Why?

[Sunburn]

Please read here: http://www.harpoonhq.com/waypoint/articles/Article_056.pdf

[mapuc]

This from Wiki and it's about the Swedish Fighter Jet JAS 39 Gripen(griffin)

"During the Cold War, the Swedish Armed Forces were to be ready to defend against a possible invasion from the Soviet Union. This scenario required combat aircraft to be dispersed in order to maintain an air defence capacity Thus, a key design goal during the Gripen's development was the ability to take off from snow-covered landing strips of only 800 metres (2,600 ft); furthermore, a short-turnaround time of just ten minutes, during which a team composed of a technician and five conscripts would be able to re-arm, refuel, and perform basic inspections and servicing inside that time window before returning to flight"

in another forum I read following(can't remember the link)

"It doesn't take long to attached an Exocet to the body of a plane, it takes about 3 hourse to get the planes computer to accept the exocet"

And that's why I Know the game is incorrect when it comes to the Swedish Fighter Jet. It doesn't take 6 hour to load RBS15 on a JAS39.

Markus

[Sunburn]

Did you read the article?

There is far more to ready times than just pumping fuel to a plane and loading weapons on it.

[mapuc]

Did you read the article?

There is far more to ready times than just pumping fuel to a plane and loading weapons on it.

I haven't read all of it. But as I wrote in another Warfaresim forums

The planning a.s.o is MY job not the games or the ingames crews job.

And I'm not talking about a plane that have been damage, which of course require repair and therefor take longer time.

I don't know how it works in USA, Canada, England or other countries, but in Sweden the pilot get his information when he's in the air and so does the missile/robot he has under his wings and that's why it doesn't take so long to get a Fighter jet ready in Sweden.

Edit:
- While the Swedish pilots are waiting for their plane getting refueled, rearmed or reloaded, they are getting information about the next target a.s.o and that doesn't take 5-6 hr and when they are airborn they get additional information
end of Edit



As I understand it an American pilot has to wait about 5-7 hours to get his plane ready, the technicians has to work with the plane, the intelligence has to collect information a.s.o a.s.o(I used a.s.o cause I suddenly forgot all the words I had in my head)

Do not misunderstand me I LOVE the game, but I just can't understand why an American fighter pilot has to wait up to 6 hours from he land his plane and to where he is standing in the take-off position, while a Swedish fighter pilot has to wait about 10 -20 minutes - and that is really baffling me

Another thing that's baffling me is what I wrote before
"takes about 3 hrs to get the planes computer to accept the exocet"

Why does it take that long?? is it because there's two types of computers e.g They are trying to put a x-program into an y-program


Markus

[emsoy]

Cross-posting:

We're planning a 'quick turnaround' option for certain aircraft/loadout combos. Like Israeli attack a/c hot-fueling & re-arming during various wars, A-10s and Marine AV-8Bs doing several CAS sorties in quick succession, Swedish Viggens doing 15-min AAM re-arming, etc.

So the Israeli aircraft could do, say, 2-4 strike sorties with 30 min turnaround time (need to check the sources on the exact number) but would then have to step down for a prolonged period of time for aircraft maintenance and crew rest (say 18-24hrs vice 6hrs).

It should probably be up to the scenario author to enable/disable the quick re-arm option in his scenario. In many cases it would not make sense to have this ability.

How does that sound?

ttp://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3427545

[kilorocky]

6-hour ready duration is an easy answer but not ideal one.

I have a book by chinese PLA air force on AC readiness. There would be more factors to be considered, such as maintenance effectiveness, failure possibility of the system or a certain part of the AC, training level, etc.

In an ideal simulation, some thing will happen after some AC landing, like there will be a mechanical problem in one, and electronic problem in the other, thus the maintenance team will ground some of the squadron for additional hours, and others could be rearmed and launched in 30 min. or so. It should not be exact 30 min. or an even hour, the ready time could be like 43 min. or 23 min., depending on the aircraft quality, design, pilot and crew fatigue, wound, pinned down by enemy bombing, or even chaos caused by EM suppression.

It would be more realistic, if aircraft is damageable and more detailed variations are involved.

[mapuc]

6-hour ready duration is an easy answer but not ideal one.

I have a book by chinese PLA air force on AC readiness. There would be more factors to be considered, such as maintenance effectiveness, failure possibility of the system or a certain part of the AC, training level, etc.

In an ideal simulation, some thing will happen after some AC landing, like there will be a mechanical problem in one, and electronic problem in the other, thus the maintenance team will ground some of the squadron for additional hours, and others could be rearmed and launched in 30 min. or so. It should not be exact 30 min. or an even hour, the ready time could be like 43 min. or 23 min., depending on the aircraft quality, design, pilot and crew fatigue, wound, pinned down by enemy bombing, or even chaos caused by EM suppression.

It would be more realistic, if aircraft is damageable and more detailed variations are involved.

Of course if a plane have technical problem or have been hit during its mission or on it way to the target or heading away from the target.

I don't know how it is with American fighter Jets I do know how it is with Swedish Fighter Jets as it was written in Wiki
"a short-turnaround time of just ten minutes, during which a team composed of a technician and five conscripts would be able to re-arm, refuel, and perform basic inspections and servicing inside that time window before returning to flight"

Changing a wing on A JAS39 can be done with 1 technician and 2 conscripts and it takes about 20-25 minutes.(if one of the wing have been hit or so)

Furthermore to this story

We or the Swedish Air force haven't got this luxury to let 6-12 or more of our fighter jets to grounded for 5-6 hours in a case of a war with a Super Power, e,g Russia. Quick reload, refuel, repair and away again with same pilot or a fresh one with information about the next target

Maybe you American can have this luxury to have 100-300 of your F16 or F18 be grounded for 6-10 hours.

Of course the time to land, taxi to appointed area, take-off a.s.o take time and that is not what I are arguing about

Markus

[kilorocky]

Of course if a plane have technical problem or have been hit during its mission or on it way to the target or heading away from the target.

I don't know how it is with American fighter Jets I do know how it is with Swedish Fighter Jets as it was written in Wiki
"a short-turnaround time of just ten minutes, during which a team composed of a technician and five conscripts would be able to re-arm, refuel, and perform basic inspections and servicing inside that time window before returning to flight"

Changing a wing on A JAS39 can be done with 1 technician and 2 conscripts and it takes about 20-25 minutes.(if one of the wing have been hit or so)

Furthermore to this story

We or the Swedish Air force haven't got this luxury to let 6-12 or more of our fighter jets to grounded for 5-6 hours in a case of a war with a Super Power, e,g Russia. Quick reload, refuel, repair and away again with same pilot or a fresh one with information about the next target

Maybe you American can have this luxury to have 100-300 of your F16 or F18 be grounded for 6-10 hours.

Of course the time to land, taxi to appointed area, take-off a.s.o take time and that is not what I are arguing about

Markus

So, it's easy to apply these kind of difference. You may just add more attributions into the platform (AC, ship, etc.), how easy is it to replace a wing, an engine, or how long does it take to refuel on the ground.

Guys at warsim would have to work hard to upgrade the DB for quite a while, and there will be a few discuss in the foreseeable future.

Hmmm... do you really want to do it? As a fanatic war sim fan, I prefer the more realistic model and engine. hah!

[kilorocky]

it may seem to be irrelevant, but, I have to ask:

How long did it take, when Japanese changed the ground bomb to torpedo during the midway campaign?

[emsoy]

Markus, I hear what you're saying and it is our intention to add quick-turnaround.

But there is no way a combat aircraft can fly 40 combat sorties in a row with 30 min turnaround. Or 10. Or 5. The latter have been achieved, but only a handful times by just a few pilots. So its not something we'll base an air ops model on.

Flying a combat mission is like running a marathon. Pilots and aircraft need to rest. They can do about one per day sustained, 2 per day during surge (which is an impressive achievement - try running 85km per day for 5 days straight!), in very rare cases 3, and almost never as many as 5. The latter happens once or twice in extreme cases during a war, which is not often with 10 000+ sorties flown.

[kilorocky]

Markus, I hear what you're saying and it is our intention to add quick-turnaround.

But there is no way a combat aircraft can fly 40 combat sorties in a row with 30 min turnaround. Or 10. Or 5. The latter have been achieved, but only a handful times by just a few pilots. So its not something we'll base an air ops model on.

Flying a combat mission is like running a marathon. Pilots and aircraft need to rest. They can do about one per day sustained, 2 per day during surge (which is an impressive achievement - try running 85km per day for 5 days straight!), in very rare cases 3, and almost never as many as 5. The latter happens once or twice in extreme cases during a war, which is not often with 10 000+ sorties flown.

sorry to interrupt, and I hate to point out that it sounds bureaucracy to me.

it's more like the officer saying, hey, my pilot will get tired, and you should not fly a second round right now, have to wait for 6 hour interval.

Again, I think the right way to do it is to calculate the fatigue of the pilot and crew, as well as the mechanical failure rate accumulated by frequent action. ie. 24 AC in the beginning, and after the first round 1 is grounded due to failure. Then when it comes to 4 intensive mission within 24 hours, 18 of then will be grounded for different reasons and ready time will vary from the reason.

Different aircraft has different ready and maintenance time. It depends on basic design, proficiency of the crew, mechanical and electronic failure rate, in flight damages, plus some factors accumulated in high intensive mission.

You guys are pro, and I believe you have the right formula to calculate the real readiness of AC in combat.

[mapuc]

10 Minuit 20 Minuit a.s.o that is a short time I agree, but 6 hour !? just to load some weapon, fuel and give the pilot or pilots some information about the next target.(here I'm talking about aircraft with no problem what so ever)

Why not make some kind of time of repair in the game

e.g

4 of your F35 has returned from a mission(which you have planned) after they have landed you get information that 2 of your F35 has a damage(or while they are in the air heading for home)

1. Engine damage
2. Damage to some part of the plane(probably a hit from AAA)

The game could then make some time to when these repair is done and the aircraft can be put into action again. Just an idea

And I'm talking about aircraft-Fighter jets

What I wrote about the Swedish Fighter Jet JAS39 is real time. This is the time the technician and these conscript need to refuel, rearm or reload this fighter jet.
Of course if the plane got a damage or something, additional time has to been added

To get a warship ready that takes time a lot of time(depending on its status when the war started)

Realistic game...when will we ever get that????

It's a great game indeed but realistic When

Here's a example and there's plenty of them

I had 4 F18 (2+2) AMRAAM Heavy their mission was to protect two other groups with Air to ground loadout.

They encountet a group of two MIG29
I USED every AMRAAM on these two MIG's NONE of them hit their target
Then one of the MIG fired 4 of his missile and killed 3 of mine F18

And so it goes in almost EVERY scenario where there's Russian Fighter in it

So don't tell me about realistic game.

Yesterday I played for few hours (Fill the Gap) same here lots and lots of Air to Air missile against Russian fighters and Russian Bombers (had to use about 6-8 missile on each target)

Then These Russian Bombers fired all their ASM against my CVBG. MY CVBG fired almost every SAM2 they had and some more SAM and none of the ASM was hit 4 of my ship was hit.

I like Command and I'm not new to this warfaresim.

Edit forgot two thing

The fatigue of an pilot- Of course a pilot get tired after so and so many hours in the air and on high concentration all the time. What I know most countries have more than 1 pilot per aircraft. Sweden has about 3-4 pilot to each JAS39.

Ready time, planning and other things
Again I say: The planning is MY the players job NOT the in-game-crew

Markus

[emsoy]

sorry to interrupt, and I hate to point out that it sounds bureaucracy to me.

it's more like the officer saying, hey, my pilot will get tired, and you should not fly a second round right now, have to wait for 6 hour interval.

Again, I think the right way to do it is to calculate the fatigue of the pilot and crew, as well as the mechanical failure rate accumulated by frequent action. ie. 24 AC in the beginning, and after the first round 1 is grounded due to failure. Then when it comes to 4 intensive mission within 24 hours, 18 of then will be grounded for different reasons and ready time will vary from the reason.

Different aircraft has different ready and maintenance time. It depends on basic design, proficiency of the crew, mechanical and electronic failure rate, in flight damages, plus some factors accumulated in high intensive mission.

You guys are pro, and I believe you have the right formula to calculate the real readiness of AC in combat.

Like I said, we're planning a 'quick turnaround' option to cover the (rather rare) real-life cases where planes fly a (limited) number of combat sorties in quick succession. This will be scenario configurable (by the scenario authors, as this doesn't make sense in most scenarios) and to a certain extent also be configurable by the player.

Guess we'll also have to write an updated 'Aircraft Ready Times' article that explains things in even greater detail. Bureaucracy has nothing to do with it. I guess the main problem is that, in Command, the planes appear to just be 'sitting idle' while the clock ticks down from 6 hours or whatever. That 6 hr figure, however, covers the gazillion different reasons why sortie rates are as low as they are in real life.

Look, we've researched this topic to death for the last 20 years. The figures in Command haven't been taken out of thin air, and have been validated by men flying the real deal. Some for more than 25 years. So if you want to re-discuss this issue (for the n-th time) I'd very much appreciate if you could post up hard figures (with links to sources) so that we can compare that with the information we already have.

Thanks! :cool:

[emsoy]

:cool:10 Minuit 20 Minuit a.s.o that is a short time I agree, but 6 hour !? just to load some weapon, fuel and give the pilot or pilots some information about the next target.(here I'm talking about aircraft with no problem what so ever)

Why not make some kind of time of repair in the game

e.g

4 of your F35 has returned from a mission(which you have planned) after they have landed you get information that 2 of your F35 has a damage(or while they are in the air heading for home)

1. Engine damage
2. Damage to some part of the plane(probably a hit from AAA)

The game could then make some time to when these repair is done and the aircraft can be put into action again. Just an idea

And I'm talking about aircraft-Fighter jets

What I wrote about the Swedish Fighter Jet JAS39 is real time. This is the time the technician and these conscript need to refuel, rearm or reload this fighter jet.
Of course if the plane got a damage or something, additional time has to been added

To get a warship ready that takes time a lot of time(depending on its status when the war started)

Realistic game...when will we ever get that????

Please see my above post. I'd eally appreciate more hard info on the JAS 39 operations, including the number of sorties generated over time. I.e. during the first 24 hours, during the whole surge ops period (which usually lasts a maximum of 5-6 days) and during sustained ops. I'm afraid the tiny bits of info you've given us so far really isn't enough to validate or disprove the model. Sorry!

It's a great game indeed but realistic When

Here's a example and there's plenty of them

I had 4 F18 (2+2) AMRAAM Heavy their mission was to protect two other groups with Air to ground loadout.

They encountet a group of two MIG29
I USED every AMRAAM on these two MIG's NONE of them hit their target
Then one of the MIG fired 4 of his missile and killed 3 of mine F18

Okay it's impossible to determine what happened without a savegame or a message log. Could be your side had a bad day, and the enemy an extremely lucky one. Or there could be a problem.

Also, what version/build are you using? The latest version (B553 or B554) has a number of improvemets on decoy and DECM handling over 1.03 so recommend checking it out if you're not running it already.

And so it goes in almost EVERY scenario where there's Russian Fighter in it

So don't tell me about realistic game.

Yesterday I played for few hours (Fill the Gap) same here lots and lots of Air to Air missile against Russian fighters and Russian Bombers (had to use about 6-8 missile on each target)

Then These Russian Bombers fired all their ASM against my CVBG. MY CVBG fired almost every SAM2 they had and some more SAM and none of the ASM was hit 4 of my ship was hit.

That sounds... weird... can you post a savegame? And again, what version of the sim are you using? B553/554 has a number of fixes to both seeker logics and mid-course guidance logics, but also introduces PoK speed modifiers for anti-ship missiles. Fast missiles will be difficult if not impossible to hit by older, less capable anti-air systems.

And what was the ECM environment like?

I like Command and I'm not new to this warfaresim.

Edit forgot two thing

The fatigue of an pilot- Of course a pilot get tired after so and so many hours in the air and on high concentration all the time. What I know most countries have more than 1 pilot per aircraft. Sweden has about 3-4 pilot to each JAS39.

Ready time, planning and other things
Again I say: The planning is MY the players job NOT the in-game-crew

Markus

No problem, but we need more hard facts. Sorry.

[kilorocky]

I know someone, who's perfect to answer all these question. My grandpa served in China Air Force from 1931-1949, ended up as CO of Nanchang AB. His whole history is engineer readying and repairing AC, especially during China-Japan War and WWII.

But he passed away years ago, and everything that has to do with the air force history has been burned or destroyed when the communists took over. No photo, no memoir, only a letter of "confession". The only legacy is an ancient metal model of P-40.

I have bought a book on the AC readiness years ago, written by the PLAAF Academy or so and published by Chinese Defense Industry. There were quite a lot of function and formula describing this issue. However, I don't dare to present these pages.

[kilorocky]

Have you guys referred to this:

http://www.cna.org/research/1998/sortie-generation-capacity-embarked-airwings

I guess it's quite convincing covering this issue

Sortie Generation Capacity of Embarked Airwings

Published Date: December 1, 1998

The Naval Strike and Warfare Center asked the Center for Naval Analyses to help evaluate and analyze carrier and air wing sortie-generation capacity. Specifically, we set out to determine the firepower capacity of an embarked air wing, the factors that constrain the sortie-generation capacity, and ways to enhance the fire power capacity. In this paper, we create a base case focusing on the three major requirements of the creation of sea-based air power: the aircraft must be mission capable, the aircrew must be able to fly the aircraft, and the flight deck crews must ready aircraft for flight, launch aircraft, and recover aircraft after the completion of their missions. Our estimates of the capacity of the airframes, the aircrew, and the carrier and air wing's ability to launch, recover, and ready aircraft for launch rely on the characteristics of the base case.

[mapuc]

I have a few very simple questions

Is Command:
1. A Computer Vs Computer game ?(you know a game where you the player are only watching as the Computer play against it self)

2. A Player Vs Computer game ?

3. A combination of both

Just simple yes or no will do.

Markus

[mapuc]

Have you guys referred to this:

http://www.cna.org/research/1998/sortie-generation-capacity-embarked-airwings

I guess it's quite convincing covering this issue

Sortie Generation Capacity of Embarked Airwings

Published Date: December 1, 1998

The Naval Strike and Warfare Center asked the Center for Naval Analyses to help evaluate and analyze carrier and air wing sortie-generation capacity. Specifically, we set out to determine the firepower capacity of an embarked air wing, the factors that constrain the sortie-generation capacity, and ways to enhance the fire power capacity. In this paper, we create a base case focusing on the three major requirements of the creation of sea-based air power: the aircraft must be mission capable, the aircrew must be able to fly the aircraft, and the flight deck crews must ready aircraft for flight, launch aircraft, and recover aircraft after the completion of their missions. Our estimates of the capacity of the airframes, the aircrew, and the carrier and air wing's ability to launch, recover, and ready aircraft for launch rely on the characteristics of the base case.


The PDF-fil is somehow broken, that's the message I get.

Markus

[kilorocky]

The PDF-fil is somehow broken, that's the message I get.

Markus

Hmmm
google “Sortie Generation Capacity of Embarked Airwings”
and you will get it right

[mapuc]

To kilorocky thank you will look into it later.

Some one said in this thread(Can't remember who) people forget that there ain't so many sortier(something like that)

When I read that I remember my dear Uncle, who died in the beginning of this century. He was a sailor and he was the first 4 days of the first iraqi war at some harbour in SA and he told me this
"There was fighter Jets taking off and landing ALL the time around the clock"

Made a search "Sortier during first Iraq war"

found this page

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/index/iraq/nirq050.htm






Day 6: Monday, Jan. 21

U.S. officials say despite more than 8,000 sorties in five days
Now how many aircraft-Fighters/bombers* did USA have in this first Iraqi war?

* F-4 F-14, F-15 F-17 F-18 a.s.o
Here is what it says on a wiki page
"The aerial strike force was made up of over 2,250 combat aircraft, which included 1,800 US aircraft,"

Found this from a wiki page

The coalition flew over 100,000 sorties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign

This answer was just to tell you that in case of a war the amount of sortier is WAY higher than in peacetime. And if there's would be time to let some of these 2250 plane be standing on the ground for 6-10 hours

This is my last post in this thread.

Markus

[FSKRipper]

Hey mapuc,

I think what most People mean is that under normal circumstances it will take at least a few hours to prepare a mission. To get into it I would recommend you the books "Flying the A-10 in the gulf war" or/and "Flying the Strike Eagle in the Gulf war" or from Mr. Rosenkranz "Vipers in the Storm". You will learn that even during Desert Storm a normal Mission took up to eight hours to prepare with several briefings, intelligence Meetings and so on.

But you are also right. In several cases (especially the A-10) there were planes on hot standby and were partly rearmed and refueled with engines running which was a matter of minutes up to an hour. These was made for 3 or 4 missions a day then the planes got cheked for a extended period.

So in my opinion emsoys Statement to create a workaround for a quick mission would be fine in my case.

[mapuc]

Hey mapuc,

I think what most People mean is that under normal circumstances it will take at least a few hours to prepare a mission. To get into it I would recommend you the books "Flying the A-10 in the gulf war" or/and "Flying the Strike Eagle in the Gulf war" or from Mr. Rosenkranz "Vipers in the Storm". You will learn that even during Desert Storm a normal Mission took up to eight hours to prepare with several briefings, intelligence Meetings and so on.

But you are also right. In several cases (especially the A-10) there were planes on hot standby and were partly rearmed and refueled with engines running which was a matter of minutes up to an hour. These was made for 3 or 4 missions a day then the planes got cheked for a extended period.

So in my opinion emsoys Statement to create a workaround for a quick mission would be fine in my case.

Thank you for your reply

I have nowhere said it didn't take time to load, refuel a.s.o

It was this "huge time" to get a Fighter jet ready (loaded with bombs etc)

"a normal Mission took up to eight hours to prepare with several briefings, intelligence Meetings and so on. "

I asked a question before is Command a Computer Vs Computer generated game play? If yes then the sentence I copied from you is correct when used in the game.
But if the game is a Player Vs Computer generated game then it IS MY JOB to do these things. NOT THE GAME-The only thing the game have to do is to (re)load,(re)fuel)or (re)arm the plane and maybe do some repair(hope this event will come in a later issue of the game)

And that's one of the thing I'm hoping for - let us the player do the planning a.s.o

Markus

[FSKRipper]

Ok. I think I know now what you mean. If it is Player vs. Computer you want to make time consuming decisions like briefing yourself.

Maybe in the future this could be possible by adding code which in this case would decrease the efficiency of the flights (as it would be in real life).

I don'd know how much you are in simulations but if you already played Falcon BMS, you will understand that flying missions like "on call CAS" is much more dangerous and in most circumstances less efficient than a pre briefed attack.

Therefore it could maybe a possible solution to reduce prep times to maybe 30 minutes and adding a malus for the next Mission. :hmm2:

[emsoy]

Think the solution will probably be something like this...

The JAS 39 Gripen will have a 6 hr normal turnaround. But the scenario author can activate 'quick turnaround' in his scenario if it makes sense to do so. Some (but far from all!) loadouts in the platforms database will be 'quick turnaround' capable, typically simpler A/G loadouts on tactical jets. Bomber loadouts, cruise missile loadouts, etc will never be in this category.

Then, if the player decides to use 'quick turnaround', the plane can fly 4 sorties with 25 minute turnaround. But once the plane stands down it will be out of action for a prolonged period of time, probably 36-48 hours. The exact number of missions, the turnaround time and the penalties will be set for each loadout in the database. So no in-code 'one rule' implementation.

This should solve the problem I think?

[FSKRipper]

Sounds perfect for me :D

[kilorocky]

Think the solution will probably be something like this...

The JAS 39 Gripen will have a 6 hr normal turnaround. But the scenario author can activate 'quick turnaround' in his scenario if it makes sense to do so. Some (but far from all!) loadouts in the platforms database will be 'quick turnaround' capable, typically simpler A/G loadouts on tactical jets. Bomber loadouts, cruise missile loadouts, etc will never be in this category.

Then, if the player decides to use 'quick turnaround', the plane can fly 4 sorties with 25 minute turnaround. But once the plane stands down it will be out of action for a prolonged period of time, probably 36-48 hours. The exact number of missions, the turnaround time and the penalties will be set for each loadout in the database. So no in-code 'one rule' implementation.

This should solve the problem I think?

hmmm

howabout let the editor decide the ready time for specific units?

[mapuc]

Think the solution will probably be something like this...

The JAS 39 Gripen will have a 6 hr normal turnaround. But the scenario author can activate 'quick turnaround' in his scenario if it makes sense to do so. Some (but far from all!) loadouts in the platforms database will be 'quick turnaround' capable, typically simpler A/G loadouts on tactical jets. Bomber loadouts, cruise missile loadouts, etc will never be in this category.

Then, if the player decides to use 'quick turnaround', the plane can fly 4 sorties with 25 minute turnaround. But once the plane stands down it will be out of action for a prolonged period of time, probably 36-48 hours. The exact number of missions, the turnaround time and the penalties will be set for each loadout in the database. So no in-code 'one rule' implementation.

This should solve the problem I think?

:up:

Edit
I have for months been searching the Internet for the same information I have in my head regarding loadout time a.s.o for JAS 39 and it is a lot shorter than a F-18 etc (please see a qoute from a wiki page in one of my first post)

Markus

[FSKRipper]

I think the idea from emsoy will work fine.

Sure you can get shorter replenish times. In a WW3 Scenario the most defending nations would be able to fly more sorties but at much higher costs. It would be a "all out scenario". I don't know how the exact plan for the Swedish Air Force was, but the German Air Force would have been regrouped in western europe instead of hopelessly fighting over german territory.

But in every conflict today, even minors against a superpower (USA vs. Iraq, Russia vs. Georgia e.g.) both sides will take their time to analyze the situation and not stupidly sacrifice their planes for massive attacks. They are simply too expensive :03:

[mapuc]

I think the idea from emsoy will work fine.

Sure you can get shorter replenish times. In a WW3 Scenario the most defending nations would be able to fly more sorties but at much higher costs. It would be a "all out scenario". I don't know how the exact plan for the Swedish Air Force was, but the German Air Force would have been regrouped in western europe instead of hopelessly fighting over german territory.

But in every conflict today, even minors against a superpower (USA vs. Iraq, Russia vs. Georgia e.g.) both sides will take their time to analyze the situation and not stupidly sacrifice their planes for massive attacks. They are simply too expensive :03:

English is not my native language and i don't know how I shall explain it

Planning, gathering information about the enemies postiion analyzing a.s.o a.s.o is MY JOB as the player it is NOT the games(Commands job) the ONLY thing the game shall do is
Load the plane with those weapon I have given the base order to do
and the amount of plane which shall have these type of weapon
AND do the repair/maintenance
That's all
and of course defend the base in case of an attack.

Please do not tell my it takes about 4½-5½ hour to JUST re(load)* and re(fuel) a fighter jet e.g F/A-18E(I'm talking about a plane that is fresh, no damage and with a fresh pilot)

* Air-to-ground and ASUW

The Combat turnaround air-to-air for JAS 39 is 10 Minuit

and the average time for maintenance per 100 hours of flight time is about 3 hours for JAS 39

I do like the idea emsoy mentioned.

Edit(again)
forgot something

when I read stuff like "both sides will take their time to analyze the situation" which is from your last post, then I get some kind of..well can't find the word... Most of you say, (not directly though) it's a player Vs computer game, but all these answer you are giving me indicate that it is computer Vs Computer game.

Markus

[mapuc]

I've been thinking and here's a conceivable scenario so you may know what i mean
Game start
Time and place
12 August 1990 time 1300 somewhere in the North Atlantic

Group CVBG with USS Ronald Reagan

I have at al time some of the F-14 in the air as aerial defense

1301 I get a message ordering me to bomb the runways and other stuff(forgot the name of these stuff) at Keflavik airbase in Iceland

To do so I need information abot what kind of defense they have and where their are positioned a.s.o

which assistive do I have at hand so I can collect this information

Airplane
Satellite
Uboat(Navy Seals)

I chose to send 2 F-14 or F-18 with recon outfit(can't remember the exact phrase) It's several flight hours and it require refuling in the air I therefor send an extra tanker in the air(I do this about 2 hours after the recon have lifted)

OK the Recon have returned and have taken some pictures have to wait an hour or so before these picture are ready

I press some key on the keyboard and I get to see these pictures*

OK I now know what kind of defense they have. Now its time to make a bombing plan

What type of bomb should I use
What type of fighter should I use to carry these bombs
How many should I use
How many fighter should I use for SEAD
What type should I use for this task(SEAD)
How many fighter should I use for defense(AAW-loudout)
What type of Fighter should I use for this task)
Tanker? airplane for OECM and other stuff ?

So you see the only thing the game-crew has to do is load weapon of my choice on my choice of fighter plane and if needed refuel these plane and do some repair(if that comes in a future opgrade of the game) and control the speed of the ship as I has ordered and direction which I have also ordered and defend the ship


* got this idea when writing this post

Put some old aerial pictures from Vietnam war or other war somewhere in the game and when a player press some button on the keyboard one of these photos pops up.( an airfield,railtrack etc) Don't know if this is possible

I have no idea of making a game and I quess it would be impossible to connect correct phote with correct posistion of the fighter when it take some Photos

E.g A F-14 takes a photo of an airfield how would the game now this in order to present a real photo of an airfield and not a Photo of a factory or railroad

Markus

[noguaranteeofsanity]

This is an interesting analysis and I think the one of the reports used to support the 6 hour ready time as in table V.3 it has an average of 1 to 1.6 sorties a day per aircraft, which if you round up to 2 becomes 12 hours on the ground and 12 in the air for each aircraft, so each flight or the time to ready the aircraft takes place in a 6 hour window.

http://fas.org/man/gao/nsiad98001/a5.htm

[Aktungbby]

noguaranteeofsanity!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Jimbuna]

Welcome Aboard :sunny:

[emsoy]

This is an interesting analysis and I think the one of the reports used to support the 6 hour ready time as in table V.3 it has an average of 1 to 1.6 sorties a day per aircraft, which if you round up to 2 becomes 12 hours on the ground and 12 in the air for each aircraft, so each flight or the time to ready the aircraft takes place in a 6 hour window.

http://fas.org/man/gao/nsiad98001/a5.htm

Actually it's a bit more complex than this.

During surge ops, 4th gen fighters can produce 2.0 to 2.1 sorties per aircraft per day. But not all aircraft would fly at the same time. Typically, 1/4 to 1/3 of them would be stuck on the ground. Also, a day/night capable strike squadron should be able to produce 3 packages per day.

So lets take a quick look at how a 12-aircraft squadron would be implemented in Command:

First make 4 aircraft permanenty unavailable for ops. That prevents the player from putting more than 2/3 of the fighters in the air as per RL observations.

Then ready the remaining eight aircraft with strike loadouts. These have 6 hr ready time. With a 500nm strike radius you need 2 hrs (++) to fly the mission. So that's 8 hrs to ready and fly. Then repeat three times (again as per RL ops), and you end up on 2.0 surge sorties per plane per day.

If you make 10 out of 12 planes available to the player you get 2.5 sorties per aircraft per day and you've probably moved beyond what's realistic. There are real-life examples where much higher sortie rates have been achieved (typically for simpler CAS missions that do not require any briefing - all you do is haul bombs a short distance) and we will look into adding a 'quick turnaround' option for these cases. Ref earlier discussion.

I'd also like to have a 'sustained ops' ready time option, where the player is limited to 0.6-0.9 sorties per plane per day as a alternative to the 2.0-2.1 surge rates we have today. Will have to discuss it in more detail with the other programmers when back from the summer break.

Thanks!

[noguaranteeofsanity]

Actually it's a bit more complex than this.

During surge ops, 4th gen fighters can produce 2.0 to 2.1 sorties per aircraft per day. But not all aircraft would fly at the same time. Typically, 1/4 to 1/3 of them would be stuck on the ground. Also, a day/night capable strike squadron should be able to produce 3 packages per day.

So lets take a quick look at how a 12-aircraft squadron would be implemented in Command:

First make 4 aircraft permanenty unavailable for ops. That prevents the player from putting more than 2/3 of the fighters in the air as per RL observations.

Then ready the remaining eight aircraft with strike loadouts. These have 6 hr ready time. With a 500nm strike radius you need 2 hrs (++) to fly the mission. So that's 8 hrs to ready and fly. Then repeat three times (again as per RL ops), and you end up on 2.0 surge sorties per plane per day.

If you make 10 out of 12 planes available to the player you get 2.5 sorties per aircraft per day and you've probably moved beyond what's realistic. There are real-life examples where much higher sortie rates have been achieved (typically for simpler CAS missions that do not require any briefing - all you do is haul bombs a short distance) and we will look into adding a 'quick turnaround' option for these cases. Ref earlier discussion.

I'd also like to have a 'sustained ops' ready time option, where the player is limited to 0.6-0.9 sorties per plane per day as a alternative to the 2.0-2.1 surge rates we have today. Will have to discuss it in more detail with the other programmers when back from the summer break.

Thanks!
Totally agree and that is a far better answer than mine! I am certain you would have a far better understanding of this stuff than me and I was just trying to inject some facts into the debate having seen it play out time and time again since the days of Harpoon 3.6 and DB2K.

noguaranteeofsanity!:Kaleun_Salute:

Welcome Aboard :sunny:

Thanks!

[mapuc]

I have written this before

Your country may have a huge airforce but a country like mine Sweden can't effort the luxury to have 10-20-30 or more fighter jets standing on the ground for 5-6 hours or more depending on what type of loadout.

We have more than just 1(ONE) crew per plane and we have more than 2 pilots per plane.

So when I JAS39 takes ground a team of mechanics and trained soldiers take care of the jet, while the pilot get a coffee break and get information about the next target. Or a new fresh pilot takes over(and he get information before the plane toke ground)

We can't have that luxury.

I wish I had some of the old issues of Ingenjören(the Engineer) and Dagens teknik(today's technology) ´cause in these issues there was a alot about this new Swedish fighter JAS39. And the very HARD demand the Swedish government put on the flight engineer working at SAAB.

Instead of believing me I would, if I was you, the Dev team behind Command, send an email to a Swedish Airbase, e.g F17 Ronneby and ask the leader there how long it take to ready a JAS39 when it comes ot SEAD-loadout, AAW-Loadout, Air-to-ground-loadout and ASUW-loadout and how long it takes to make some type of repair.

I Can't tell if these information is a secret or not.

Markus

[mapuc]

Was looking at Wiki and found this information about US-air force regarding how many fighter jets they have

"The USAF has 2,025 fighters in service as of September 2012"

Sweden has

About 100 JAS39 and we are a nation that are neutral.(I know the Swedish government ordered 204, but these 104 extra is for selling to other countries)

so you see we don't have that luxury

[emsoy]

Understood. And I, too, know that Swedish crews were well-trained professionals able to ready their planes in no-time. Which is fine for simple repetitive missions like CAS/BAI, anti-invasion, or local air defence.

The problems arise when carrying out offensive air operations. These require a lot of planning along with good intel analysis and pre/post strike recon, and puts a lot of pressure on logistics and maintenance, etc. Will try to explain in greater detail in a follow-up post.