Manual Targeting and Tonnage Question

[Capt. EJ]

Hello All,

Two questions here, thought I would wrap them up into a single post to save space! :)

The first, I have recently started using Manual Targeting of Torpedo's in SHIV, thanks to an excellent post Yngvef over on the Ubisoft website.

The steps I follow to fire manually are as follows.

1.) Identify Target via the ingame ship ID Manual
2.) Plug in Mast Height (Usually via the tick box as I find the numbers on the dial hard to read)
3.) Use Stadiometer to estimate range
4.) Estimate AOB based on visual observation. I usually update this as ship gets closer, hopefully to a 90 degree firing angle.
5.) Estimate speed based on multiple range readings.
6.) When target is at desired distance/angle, I fire the torpedos and hopefully score some hits.

Now my question is how do the torpedo's know the location of the target? The torpedo's know the target might be sitting 10 degrees to Port or Starboard and will turn to match but I cannot see where I have input this information based on the above? When I look in the Position Dial on the torpedo tab I see what I think is the ships estimated position on the upper dial but I have not figured out HOW that information is input.

Since I am using manual targeting I am just wondering how this information is being received by the TDC. Any input here would be appreciated.

2nd Question
Thanks to the tutorial I have become pretty proficient at manual targeting (Stock Game, V1.5) and can hit most vessels at ranges of up to 1,500 yards. Anything over that becomes more troublesome due to, no doubt, inaccuracies in my calculations. Usually in these cases a spread of torps and a fire & hope attitude is utilized (with mixed results! :D) So on my first patrol I sunk 11 enemy ships (2 where fishermen) for 76k tons (due to me meeting 4 passenger liners in 2 groups with no escorts! One being a Huge EU liner of 19k tons). Out of all my torpedos (Belive 24?) I hit with 16 of them, 5 missing, 1 dude and 2 premature.

So even with all that, I managed to get 76k tons and a Medal of Honor (I believe this is bugged). Is this "normal"? I know when I played with assisted targeting this would be common but always bugged me as striking me as unrealistic, especially when you read historical accounts where Submarine Aces might only sink a combined 60-90k throughout the entire war.

As such, is there any ways to get more accurate patrol scores or do we just need to accept that having unrealistically high tonnage is the norm? Also, I think what also contributes is the strength of the deck gun, sunk to Modern Passenger liners with the Deck gun after about 20 HE rounds below the waterline. When I read historical accounts it seems 50 - 70 rounts of 5inch are required to sink smaller 1k ton ships.

Sorry for the long post but any thoughts would be appreciated! :)

[jldjs]

How does the torpedo know location of the target you ask, because you input that with a distance and bearing estimate. Then you input where the target is going as an estimate with its speed and AoB. If you turn the PK on, it will track a path for the torpedo to intersect the target based on the starting location, speed, and track relative to you ( AoB) that you provided. Success occurs if your inputs are correct and the target doesn't change it's speed or AoB.

[Capt. EJ]

Thanks for your reply.

I guess the question is, how does it know it's starting location?

Say for example, the Target is 20 degrees off the Bow at 2000 years, traveling 90 degrees across the power (perfect angle) at 7 knots.

Using the method I mention in the OP, I figure out the distance, direction and speed but not (that I can see) the targets actual location (20 degrees off the bow).

Does the TDC get this information from the direction the periscope is facing when I input the information?

[CapnScurvy]

WELCOME to SubSim!!

Yes Capt. EJ, the target bearing is from the periscope position. That's why its advisable to "lock" the target within the periscope view when making the Stadimeter check, and "sending" the data to the TDC/Position Keeper. Both Stadimeter calculated range and periscope relative bearing (wherever the periscope is pointing) are sent at the same time.

The game is very forgiving. Up close, manual targeting is almost a "can't miss". Further away, that's another story. Mainly because many of the Mast Height measurements are inaccurate. Their not accurate....so the Stadimeter measurements aren't accurate either. The fact that the Stadimeter also throws in an automatic error if you're making a Stadimeter reading with just one pixel width off from where it should be also makes an inaccurate reading. Putting both of these factors together, you're just not going to get a correct range calculation. What you will get is a hit, regardless of the range inaccuracy, if your close to the target.

How wide is one pixel width? The stock games Telemeter Divisions (the marks on the periscope lens) are two pixel widths wide. You better have a steady hand when mouse clicking the Stadimeter placement....just a slight movement will produce dozens of yards inaccuracy. Those Telemeter Divisions are no help either....their not scaled to the "world view" the stock game gives us. That's why there's little instruction in using the divisions for measuring.....the game optical world view is way off from what it should be.

For more reading on the subject, look to the thread "Optical Targeting Correction (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181172)".

============

Yes, the stock game is messed up with the medals/awards too!! Here's a recent thread called "Messed up medals (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=211090)".

[Capt. EJ]

Thanks Capnscurvey, that answered my question!

I assume based on that information I could also use the periscope to manually aim ahead of the target as well or to "free fire"? Will have to test this.

I also noticed that the stadiometer is very inaccurate, especially due to "human" error as I doubt I line it up the same position every time leading to distance and more importantly speed errors.

At close range this is less of an issue, but at ranges of 1,500+ that combined with eyeball AOB calculations lead to a greater chance of missing. In a way I do not mind this though, so I try to either get as close as possible or fire volleys, hoping that something will hit (very satisfying when it does).

That being said, are there alternative and more accurate methods of determining distance, speed and AOB?

Thanks again for your answer! o7

[Sniper297]

"I figure out the distance, direction and speed but not (that I can see) the targets actual location (20 degrees off the bow)."

Range and bearing are actual location relative to your own sub. 20 degrees off the bow is bearing AKA direction AKA azimuth, location is the range AKA distance combined with bearing. AOB (Angle On the Bow) is your bearing from him, by knowing your own sub's heading and adding or subtracting the direction you bear from him, the TDC then knows the target's heading (which direction he's facing).

TDC knows its starting location is inside the sub, and barring a catastrophe its ending location will be the same. It's not showing coordinates in relation to the Earth's surface, it's showing relative position to the sub itself. It doesn't know if its in the South Pacific, North Atlantic, or Lake Gitcheegoomie, and it doesn't need to know. TDC was a mechanical computer which took input from the periscope bearing (mechanical connection, when you press the "send range and bearing to TDC" button it knows what the current direction is by the bearing) and range by what you have set in the stadimeter when you push the button. When it's switched on it also starts taking information from the annunciator for the sub's current speed and heading, and automatically updates that when you speed up, slow down or turn.

How it knows what the enemy is doing, it doesn't. It's assuming that the information you're feeding it is correct, it's keeping track of your speed and heading from the sub's gyrocompass and pit log, and calculating the target's position - THE TARGET POSITION RELATIVE TO THE SUB, which is all that matters to the torpedo firing solution - by simple math using an internal clock. If the target speeds up, slows down, or turns and you fail to notice and update the TDC with the new data, the current position it's showing will be wrong since it's assuming the target is continuing on the same heading at the same speed until you tell it otherwise.

As for tonnage, yeah it's unrealistic, but many aspects of the military are described as years of boredom with moments of terror, in real life they played cards and read books and stared at empty horizons for months, then went back to port with a full load of torpedoes. Next patrol they did the same with one day of excitement when they sank two ships and got depth charged, after the repairs back to the boring routine again. They have a mod which does something like that, but IMO a game is for entertainment and that ain't entertaining.

[Capt. EJ]

Thanks for the reply sniper, it makes sense. I think I have a general understanding now of all the elements of manual targeting (well as good as I can as I SUCK at math and am generally useless :D )

As for the tonnage, I guess my "gripe" is that I sink too much on a single patrol. Now sinking is fun and the aim of the game but always at the back of my mind knowing that I am sinking more in a single patrol than the top aces did over the entire war bothers me.

Guess I should look at some mods but guess the following things could help solve the situation

- Lower Tonnage Rating for ships (which I think happened after the war anyways, think a lot of skippers got their tonnage reduced by half post war)
- Reduce the amount of the high tonnage targets running around ungarded (i.e I met FOUR ungarded passenger liners, 2 modern, 1 large and one HUGE EU liner. Thats 2 x 9k tons, 1 x 7k tons and 1 x 19k tons)
- Reduce power of deck gun

I am sure there are mods that address this so will have a look...and then probably curl up and cry when I finish a only a single fishing boat sunk :D

[Sniper297]

I suck at math too, but that's why the TDC was invented. The computers we're using now are electronic, but mechanical computers with little motors spinning gears and camshafts ticking off seconds and counting ratchet trips while rotating shafts back and forth to keep track of direction existed long before integrated circuits and microprocessors. Technically a grandfather clock was a simple mechanical computer which did nothing but keep track of elapsed time.
Before the TDC was invented all the calculations were done with pencils and brain strain, a circular slide rule called the "IS/WAS" was used to keep track of enemy course, speed, and relative location, and the gyro angles had to be set manually before firing. Beauty of the TDC was all the connections to various things in the sub meant that all it needed was input as to range, bearing, and AOB, from that it could figure out target course and speed eventually if you didn't input speed manually, took input automatically from the sub's own pit log and gyrocompass to keep track of where the sub had moved to from the original position when it was first turned on, and sent the current information directly to each torpedo automatically.

Tips and tricks, draw a line on the map for the target's course - the track. Distance to the track is the first info you really need, to get into a good firing position you need to know the target's track, and move toward that rather than heading towards the target in a pursuit curve.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4553/34926631ht6.jpg

I draw the line for the target track, measure off 1000 yards from that, and draw a parallel line and start moving to position myself 1000 yards off the track facing it at 90 degrees. If the target doesn't change course eventually I'll be in the perfect firing position. In the above example the target is 6000 yards away, (range) but I don't need to move that way to close the range, what I do instead is move toward where he will be (CAP = Closest Point of Approach) in other words toward the target track, which is only 1600 yards away. A sub don't move very fast underwater so it works better to get in front of him, then let him come to you instead of trying a futile chase.

Other tip - when you hit the ENTER key or firing switch to fire a torpedo, the gyro in the torpedo disconnects from the wire and stops receiving updates from the TDC. If the outer doors are shut the crew will automatically open same, but it takes a few seconds - so when the fish leaves the tube it has obsolete information. Press Q for each tube to open the outer doors before you fire, then the gyro angle in the torpedo is the same as what the TDC says since there's no lag between the firing command and actual firing.

[Capt. EJ]

Thats good info, will be making use of that moving forward. Thanks for taking the time to provide it, much appreciated!

[Capt. EJ]

Well I am happy to report after installing the GFO mod and playing 80% realism (Map Contacts and External view enabled) I had a pretty "standard" first patrol in my Sargo USS Seawolf out of Manilla.

3 Ships sunk for 16k tons, about 50% faulty torps and a LOT of misses (I missed an unbelievable sitter!). Also, one of my torps decided to do a circular run. Luckily it was a desperate shot fired "down the throat" at an onrushing Destroyer so I did an emergency dive.

Pretty funny seeing both sub and destroyer hastily do all they can to avoid the murderous torp! :D

While pretty "dissapointed" at the faulty torps and misses, this felt far more satisfying than my previous 70k breezes. Now at least if I even get close I will have felt like I earnt it! :D