Detected via Sonar Ping While Sitting Still?

[Radtgaeb]

All;

After years of not playing any subsim whatsoever, I fired up SH4 a couple nights ago and it seems like I'm back to square one as far as learning how to approach. I set up my S18 for a task force approach, and I was only about 200-300yds out from the predicted track line, so I put 'er in park for about 45 mins in-game-time....

...then a destroyer came along, immediately pinged me, and game over. What gives? I wasn't moving at all, I didn't have my periscope or radar mass raised, he just...pinged me sitting still then nailed me.

[Dread Knot]

Are you playing with any mods like TMO (Trigger Maru)? In that mod the Japanese can practically hear your heartbeat underwater.

[swdw]

Active sonar can only be avoided by a thermal layer. Running silent, sitting still, etc are of no help. In fact, remaining still when you get pinged is basically asking to be sunk.

Silent running and sitting still only work against hydrophones (passive sonar).

Against active sonar you have to listen for the shift from long range pinging to short pinging. This means they've shifted from search to targeting. Best defense is going deeper, hoping you find a thermal layer, and timing their run to know when to kick her in the pants and apply a hard rudder.

[Radtgaeb]

Yeah, I'm running TMO.


I guess my biggest question mark was...how did they evenknow where to ping if I didn't have engines running or any masts deployed to spot? How am I supposed to approach a convoy or TF if I'm going to be immediately spotlighted? I'd love a good, solid close approach guide and have scoured the forums for one but most only hit on plotting intercepts, not how to avoid getting yourself caught.


I feel like...back when I was in High School playing GWX on SH3 I never had this much frustration whilst trying to pursue a convoy.

[Admiral Halsey]

Yeah, I'm running TMO.

Well there's your problem mate. TMO Escorts are basically omnipotent. In fact 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time they'll find you the moment you get within range of them. Makes for a lot of fun escape stories though.

[Radtgaeb]

Great. So what do you suggest? Escape stories are fun, but I'd also like tonnage. And SH4 vanilla is.....well, Sh4 vanilla. :rotfl2:

[Admiral Halsey]

Great. So what do you suggest? Escape stories are fun, but I'd also like tonnage. And SH4 vanilla is.....well, Sh4 vanilla. :rotfl2:

Download the TMO compatible version of RSRD. It faithfully recreates nearly every convoy Japan had plus recreates nearly every single battle as well as you can with the game. Oh and the escorts start off easy but get harder as the war goes on.

[BigWalleye]

Not uncommon for escorts leading a convoy to actively search, hopefully to drive any lurking subs out of the way. If you're sitting still at shallow depth, you'd be hard to miss. Don't need TMO's uber-escorts.

[Radtgaeb]

Not uncommon for escorts leading a convoy to actively search, hopefully to drive any lurking subs out of the way. If you're sitting still at shallow depth, you'd be hard to miss. Don't need TMO's uber-escorts.

Suggestions?

[Admiral Halsey]

Suggestions?

Only attack in shallow water if it's bad weather. Even then you should still avoid shallow water attacks at all costs.

[Radtgaeb]

Only attack in shallow water if it's bad weather. Even then you should still avoid shallow water attacks at all costs.


So...essentially never use parascope depth? Lol

[gi_dan2987]

So...essentially never use parascope depth? Lol

Essentially it all depends on what mods you are using and what level of difficulty you like to play at. I would agree that TMO makes for unrealistic scenarios of detection (where detection would have been rare in real life).

Though escorts would actively ping on occasion while running with a convoy, if you're hunting in waters where they won't expect you, they shouldn't be readily detecting you. Sitting at periscope depth presenting your full broadside to enemy sonar (including passive) they're going to hear the general ambiance of your activities within the sub.

I prefer to enter a convoy from the front, running silent and under the thermal layer. This way, you're also presenting minimum hull profile to any prying sonar. When you hear the front DD's pass overhead, begin an expeditious albeit quiet run to P-depth (run your engines just fast enough to get up there in time to make an attack, but not so fast as to give you away. This comes with practice).

By this time you should have been tracking the convoy long enough to have obtained speed and course. You should have done this long before ever setting up for attack. The biggest reason virtual skippers fail in SH4 is because they fail to prepare. "By failing to prepare, you prepare to fail." -Ben Franklin. In this case, that couldn't be more true. Get your torps set, information logged, and numbers crunched PRIOR to even entering this position. Assuming that has been done, then continue with the attack.

It's gonna take practice timing your rise so that you come to P-depth precisely where you want to within the convoy.

Now at this point, you can launch an attack using two different ways, scope or active sonar (if you have it). I prefer to ping my targets for range and bearing prior to firing, because it seems to me I get spotted faster if I use my scope. Try to turn your sub at the last minute to be perpendicular to the convoy's track, bringing all tubes to bear on both sides of the convoy.

Go to your TDC, and set the little ship icon to match the enemies course. Turn on your PK (position keeper), and set the speed. Now go to your sonar, ping a target, any target, and quickly send your bearing and range to TDC. The reason I say quickly is because once you ping, the cat's out of the bag, and it's only a short matter of time before they begin zig-zagging and the DD's locate you within the convoy. By this time you have your AOB by setting the enemies course in the TDC and setting your PK to on. You have the speed from prior range/bearing readings when you were shadowing the convoy. With each ping, update the TDC, and fire. Ping, send, fire, repeat. I've never had a torp miss, only dud, using this method. Now since you're shooting relatively blind, you won't know what ships you just hit unless you had them picked out prior.

You probably won't want to stick around for long after all your tubes are expended. Dive to a safe depth, and run right under the remaining convoy for a while. Once you determine that you're safe to exit, do so deep and quiet, and ONLY clear silent running and begin loading tubes when you're sure you won't be busted. Get back on the enemies track, and set up for another attack. You can do this as much as you want, but each time the escorts will be looking for you a little more actively.

Sitting off the side of a convoy track, with full broadside presented, at P-depth, and yes you're asking to be pegged. The side escorts scan for subs to be exactly where you are. Be where they DON'T expect you to be. I call this tactic the "Surprise Bobber" attack. Where you pop up in the middle, wreak havoc without ever raising a scope, and diving back to safety like a ghost in the night.

Now this is how you play American subs in the Pacific in SH4. SH3+GWX3 is a whole nother animal. Happy Hunting! :salute:

[TorpX]

Suggestions?

Play RFB + RSRDC, instead.

I don't intend this as a shot against TMO, but when Duci was working on TMO, people wanted a harder game, and that's what he provided. The only way he had to do that, was to ramp up the AI sensors and skill levels of the escorts. This does make the escorts harder, but also makes the game unrealistic. With TMO, you really cannot succeed with historical tactics. With RFB, you can do well using historical methods. The escorts start out the war being pretty weak, but improve with time, as they should.

[Admiral Halsey]

Play RFB + RSRDC, instead.

I don't intend this as a shot against TMO, but when Duci was working on TMO, people wanted a harder game, and that's what he provided. The only way he had to do that, was to ramp up the AI sensors and skill levels of the escorts. This does make the escorts harder, but also makes the game unrealistic. With TMO, you really cannot succeed with historical tactics. With RFB, you can do well using historical methods. The escorts start out the war being pretty weak, but improve with time, as they should.




If you use the TMO version of RSRD the escorts are easier. Plus you get a better overall mod as well.

[Diopos]

The following link is by Ducimus. It is for SH3 but the principles apply for SH4, too (he has referred to this link in similar post concerning SH4). BTW Ducimus is the moder behind the later versions of TMO.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377)

.

[merc4ulfate]

This is my current mod list.

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Traveller Mod v2.6 TMO
#1 Real Environment mod install
Traveller Mod 2.6 Patch 1 - ISE v3 Patch
#4 Warships retextured
Traveller Mod 2.6 No Midway Transfer
Traveller Mod 2.6 No DC Camera Shake
Traveller Mod 2.6 Larger Search Patterns
Traveller Mod 2.6 Harder Enemy AI Escorts
Traveller Mod 2.6 Automatic Ship ID
Traveller Alternate Main Loading Screens
Convoy Routes TMO+RSRD
tambor198's TMO+RSRDC missions pack

I prefer the harder escorts because to me the game is too easy. I need the added challenge of trying to figure out how to get a decent shot while not being sunk.

I suggest you pay attention to sea state. Even with harder escorts I have gotten within 800 yards of escorts patrolling ahead of Large task forces. The key almost 100% of the time is sea state. The rougher the water the harder it is for them to hear me.

With the mods I run I have seen sea states with waves over the periscope on the surface. While that makes it quite hard to use my deck gun on merchants those types of seas make it hard for escorts to detect you. It also helps if your spotted in making your escape. I had three escorts spot me at 9000 yards south of Tokyo harbor but the sea state was such that they could not hit me before I went under at 4000 yards from them.

Early detection and good triangulation in plotting intercept courses to get you ahead of your target will work in your favor to get you the tonnage you seek.

If you can not get ahead of them then ask yourself is it worth being spotted to try a surface run. I'll skip a target rather than take a risk of being seen and hit by their deck guns.

If I am close enough, 7nm or less, I will run at flank speed at periscope depth in order to reach a firing point but only if that target is a merchant. Batteries can be recharged so use them up if it will get you at a good angle for merchants alone.

[Radtgaeb]

This is my current mod list.

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Traveller Mod v2.6 TMO
#1 Real Environment mod install
Traveller Mod 2.6 Patch 1 - ISE v3 Patch
#4 Warships retextured
Traveller Mod 2.6 No Midway Transfer
Traveller Mod 2.6 No DC Camera Shake
Traveller Mod 2.6 Larger Search Patterns
Traveller Mod 2.6 Harder Enemy AI Escorts
Traveller Mod 2.6 Automatic Ship ID
Traveller Alternate Main Loading Screens
Convoy Routes TMO+RSRD
tambor198's TMO+RSRDC missions pack

I prefer the harder escorts because to me the game is too easy. I need the added challenge of trying to figure out how to get a decent shot while not being sunk.

I suggest you pay attention to sea state. Even with harder escorts I have gotten within 800 years of escorts patrolling ahead of Large task forces. The key almost 100% of the time is sea state. The rougher the water the harder it is for them to hear me.

With the mods I run I have seen sea states with waves over the periscope on the surface. While that makes it quite hard to use my deck gun on merchants those types of seas make it hard for escorts to detect you. It also helps if your spotted in making your escape. I had three escorts spot me at 9000 yards south of Tokyo harbor but the sea state was such that they could not hit me before I went under at 4000 yards from them.

Early detection and good triangulation in plotting intercept courses to get you ahead of your target will work in your favor to get you the tonnage you seek.

If you can not get ahead of them then ask yourself is it worth being spotted to try a surface run. I'll skip a target rather than take a risk of being seen and hit by their deck guns.

If I am close enough, 7nm or less, I will run at flank speed at periscope depth in order to reach a firing point but only if that target is a merchant. Batteries can be recharged so use them up if it will get you at a good angle for merchants alone.

All great tips, thanks! The problem I was (to some extent still am) having is that, when I did properly plot a likely course and pulled up in front of it to wait it out, I got pinged forthwith and I'd have to pop it into flank and dip below the thermal layer before I got a proper beating. I got good at running away, but I still cannot seem to get a shot off before the Japanese tin cans ping me once or twice and go "Oh, hey! There he is!"

[merc4ulfate]

With some task forces I have noticed a pattern. The lead escort can be as much as 5000 yards out in front of the group. I have sat as deep as I could go, all stop and silent running and simply waited for the escort to pass overhead.

Once I was sure the escort had passed and was at least 500 yards past me, putting me in between the escort and the group, I remained at all stop but ordered periscope depth.

This gives the escort more time to keep going away from me plus begins my rise to attack depth. I generally view task force speed as 15-20 knots so I figure how long that will take for the group to reach me. If the time is to short then I will add some engine power to ascend quicker.

I also will try to have my bow pointed at the group. If they are headed 000 then I'm pointed generally at 180. It takes to long to turn so if I can get my bow fish out it allows the groups speed to pass me so all I have to do is turn the scope and fire the stern tubes as well.

After that I do not care if they hear me so I order crash dive to a safe depth and reload and hope I sink or wound a ship enough to surface later and finish her off with another salvo.

[Tombomsee]

Now this is how you play American subs in the Pacific in SH4. SH3+GWX3 is a whole nother animal. Happy Hunting! :salute:

Hi gi_dan, thanks a lot for this brief description ! Saved lots of time adjusting myself from SH3 to SH4 :up:

[gi_dan2987]

Hi gi_dan, thanks a lot for this brief description ! Saved lots of time adjusting myself from SH3 to SH4 :up:

That's what I'm here for, to give any and all knowledge to all who desire to have it.

American fleet boats are totally different than U-boats in the way they're designed, the way the crew must work to make it function, and the way the targeting system worked. German subs didn't have the fancy position keeper feature to their TDC as American subs did, and German subs also didn't have active sonar until later in the war.

The only thing between the two, is that a U-boat typically could dive a lot faster, and in some cases deeper, than a US fleet boat. The fleet boat typically carried a larger payload of torps and had a greater number of tubes to bear upon the enemy. It was a trade off for sure, and transitioning between the two can be difficult.

Also you now deal in Nautical Miles instead of Kilometers. Try that one on for size after you've been playing SH3 for a while :up:

[Ghost Dog]

Obviously the biggest factor in tactics and gameplay difficulty is going to be each user's mod setup. Only the basics stay the same: active sonar (pings) dont care about speed and noise of target. You're a hunk of metal, whether moving or staying still.

Regardless of which SH4 mod you use, I think standard US evasion tactics can work. After conducting your attack in your preferred method, flank speed to crush depth, turning away from escorts then run silent. Its simple, but if you've got enough water under you it can work.

[Admiral Halsey]

flank speed to crush depth

Crush Depth? I've gone that deep before and it's not something you do more then once. Mainly because you never get a second chance.

[Ghost Dog]

Sorry, I meant TEST depth!!

[Radtgaeb]

I guess I'm just stupid or unlucky. I've been following Ducimus' guide and keeping a low profile below the thermal layer on approach, but when I try to make a move to rise to periscope depth to line up a shot, the escorts immediately detect me and make a beeline for me.

When I go to rise, I generally am running 1/3rd at silent run or I do an all stop and rise to P.D. Guess I am just no good at SH4.

[Dread Knot]

Guess I am just no good at SH4.

Or maybe no good at TMO? Remember this is a mod that takes some serious ahistorical liberties with Japanese ASW capabilities to make the game more challenging. That's why I tend to stick with RFB and RSRD.

However, even with TMO you can eventually learn the AI's habits and how to best work around them. In addition, I believe there is a version of TMO that has the Japanese sensor levels lowered a bit too. Sort of a TMO lite.

[gi_dan2987]

I guess I'm just stupid or unlucky. I've been following Ducimus' guide and keeping a low profile below the thermal layer on approach, but when I try to make a move to rise to periscope depth to line up a shot, the escorts immediately detect me and make a beeline for me.

When I go to rise, I generally am running 1/3rd at silent run or I do an all stop and rise to P.D. Guess I am just no good at SH4.

I never liked TMO honestly. It's a tad extreme in the other direction. I always play RFB+RSRD when I do play SH4. I've found this to be a well-rounded historical mod combo.

[Radtgaeb]

Maybe I'll load up RFB. I think my "Oh, FFS!" moment that broke my will was when I was merrily chugging back to port from a patrol, then all of a sudden exploding and sinking fast.

A sub chaser had followed me and fired upon me, apparently. No watch or contact update, which I thought was strange...so I entered external cam to try to flind the source of the shelling. I had to zoom out far enough I could see the curvature of the earth to find the tiny pixel (ship) that had cooked my goose. :stare:

[Dread Knot]

Maybe I'll load up RFB. I think my "Oh, FFS!" moment that broke my will was when I was merrily chugging back to port from a patrol, then all of a sudden exploding and sinking fast.

A sub chaser had followed me and fired upon me, apparently. No watch or contact update, which I thought was strange...so I entered external cam to try to flind the source of the shelling. I had to zoom out far enough I could see the curvature of the earth to find the tiny pixel (ship) that had cooked my goose. :stare:

Another good basic mod worth looking into is Games Fixes Only (GFO) Basically, it corrects some of SH4's more glaring errors and flaws (such as the ungodly numbers of Japanese aerial contacts.) It also includes some nice graphic touches over the released version.

[Radtgaeb]

Will do. But, it wasn't a plane, it was a destroyer or cruiser that had spotted and zeroed in on me from....more than several NMs out. I'm by no means an expert on IJN gunnery capabilities circa 1943, however I don't believe the kind of accuracy they were immediately able achieve on shot number 1 would've been possible.

[aanker]

Play RFB + RSRDC, instead.

I don't intend this as a shot against TMO, but when Duci was working on TMO, people wanted a harder game, and that's what he provid.....

I enjoy RFB too, ....... Happy Hunting!

[Armistead]

RSRD doesn't really make TMO easier in that it changes sensors {cept some ship visuals}, but it does effect crew ratings which decides what amount of sensors the AI will use. Most long term players have no problem defeating TMO's AI, like most games, you learn how to respond to it. However, often the goal is getting your attack off before they sense you.

As others mentioned, your sound has nothing to do with active sonar, it basically is alway on, only you have to fall into it's cone for it to start pinging. That is the one flaw in the game. Someone did make an exe.patch of sorts that you run after you start the game so that sonar doesn't come on until the enemy knows you're there via another means, visual, your attack, etc...

If you look in the cfg file for active sonar you'll see several values you need to be aware of, such as weather, your profile, thermal..., most important stay narrow to the closet escort. I basically come straight in from the front splitting the lead and flank escort helming my nose pointed at the lead as he passes...main thing is not to fall into the sonar cone.

They're numerous tactics old timers here use to deal with TMO, many of us get to the point TMO is too easy and mod our own game to be more difficult. Fact is about anyone can go out and still sink unreal tonnage with TMO...

[merc4ulfate]

^^^

I'm like that ... at times I think TMO is too easy. I can never know the enemy crew rating but I have learned where to go and what to do to get the tonnage I want.

I also go online and look up routes, battles, and any other information that can show me where I might go to get the best tonnage from a historical stand point.

That Carrier rounding Cristobal for example. The mods recreate many historical routes and ship movements so I try to follow the map to those locations. That is how I got the Yamato the first time.

She was coming out of the Bungo with about 16 escorts and I took her out at the narrow north neck of the Bungo. The water is very deep there so after firing you can have a better chance at evasion.

Sometimes it is fun to find a naval battle and just sit there and watch the Americans and Japanese go at it. Once the enemy is clear I will pick up stranded pilots.