Contempt for Japanese ASW...

[Bubblehead1980]

I would say normally by 1944, I do not have contempt for Japanese ASW, especially in TMO RSRD but last night it nearly cost me.Gato-USS Herring out of Fremantle. 100 difficulty

February 1944 Celebes Sea.After patroling Western Celebes sea with three tanker convoy sunk on Feb 6/7 in one submerged and one night surface attack, found nothing until an ULTRA directed me just south of Tawi Tawi waiting for two convoys to pass after midday Feb 16. Sure enough, along comes a 7 ship, two escort convoy late in afternoon.Decided on dusk scope attack, follow up night surface if possible, or wait for second convoy, depends.Attacked, sunk a large freighter with 3 Mark 23's from forward tubes, sunk a smaller one with two, then went to 300 feet.The escorts were a minesweeper up front, and a momi patrol boat in the rear.The minesweeper was way up front but the momi was closing it, I was surprised when it never pinged but was closing, obviously it did not have active sonar yet but passive. I leveled off at 300 feet, few charges fell, none close.The minesweeper was on scene, but not pinging.Then I heard the momi roaring back overhead and dropped 6 charges at short intervals.I was not worried since had no active gear .Suddenly, the boat was shocking, taking damage, lights flickering, reports of flooding in control room, trimp pump damaged.Then two more close explosions, various noises.Man the luck, I would say 5 of 6 charges were very close, caused some damage.Fortunately, got the minor flooding under control.Then the minesweeper began to ping me, dropped more close ones, boat went to 350 feet before coudl level off due to the flooding.They seemed to lose me for a bit due to the water disturbance(love that mod) but then regained contact and kept me pinned with multiple charges as they hunted me for 5 hours before departing area.Surfaced, repaired, attacked next convoy, expending last of torpedoes, went home with 7 ships down, 55k tons.

I will admit I was not worried about either escort, esp the momi when found it had no active sonar but they were pretty solid, definitely a wake up call to not hold contempt for even the escorts things are not much of a threat.

[TorpX]

This is why I'm not really a fan of mods that pump up ASW abilities to unrealistic levels. To win, you must be lucky every time, they only need to be lucky once.

[Admiral Halsey]

This is why I'm not really a fan of mods that pump up ASW abilities to unrealistic levels. To win, you must be lucky every time, they only need to be lucky once.


This game doesn't really have winning so much as surviving.

[Bubblehead1980]

I would not call it unrealistic, it was luck and ideal passive sonar conditions.I gave them a target by staying at scope depth to watch torpedoes hit and hit flank to close in and fire on the small freighter to sink it, so even without he had an idea of where i was, but depth etc hard to determine without active sonar, just got lucky.

I would much rather have them diffficult to easy, not getting depth charged in this sim after an attack is anti climatic.I am working on a mod that stops the insta death, basically upped the sub's hit points from the extremely low 300(a solid barrage of charges would easily top that if they are scoring max amount.However, sub's equipment maintains current hit points, this is basically about the hull, making them durable as they were.

[TorpX]

I would much rather have them diffficult to easy, not getting depth charged in this sim after an attack is anti climatic.
This is my point. Either you have as a goal, making the sim as dramatic as you can make it, or as realistic as you can make it. I am willing to forgo the constant drama and near-death experiences in return for a realistic sim. After all, I know, sooner of later, I'll make a mistake, or the AI bad guys will get lucky, and administer a good beating, but it doesn't have to happen all the time.

I don't want the sim too easy, or too hard. I want it just right, or as close as I can get it.

I know I'm in the minority here. Most like the constant thrill of ferocious escorts breathing down their necks.

[Eesocks]

I don't want the sim too easy, or too hard. I want it just right, or as close as I can get it.


So do I, but I've come to realise that true realism in any computer sim is not really possible, the best you can hope for is historical accuracy.And the Japanese convoy protection was inefficient for most of the war due to the IJN using the best escorts and crews for their surface fleet.

Another problem with any sim is that the enemy is computer controlled and your computer always knows exactly where you are!

[Dread Knot]

This is my point. Either you have as a goal, making the sim as dramatic as you can make it, or as realistic as you can make it. I am willing to forgo the constant drama and near-death experiences in return for a realistic sim. After all, I know, sooner of later, I'll make a mistake, or the AI bad guys will get lucky, and administer a good beating, but it doesn't have to happen all the time.


I'm in the same minority as you. While I appreciate the effort that went into making TMO, I often get that "U-Boat being quickly spotted and pursued to exhaustion vibe" that I get in late war SH3. It just doesn't seem to jibe with Japan's historical performance and capabilities.

Certainly, Japan's maritime protection forces did improve as the war progressed. By early 1944, according to Admiral Lockwood, "the enemy was learning from experience, and the task of our submarines was becoming more difficult and hazardous." This was particularly true of aerial escort, at which the Japanese became relatively adept when they could scrounge up the aircraft.

But anyone not hopelessly incompetent is bound to get better at anything tried often enough, and the Japanese navy's eventual improvement at ASW was always relative to it's rather lackluster beginnings. It certainly never reached the sort of suffocating ASW coverage the Allies practiced.

[Dread Knot]

And the Japanese convoy protection was inefficient for most of the war due to the IJN using the best escorts and crews for their surface fleet.



Ironically, on those rare occasions when they were released from Combined Fleet work, Japanese fleet destroyers often displayed no greater competence at protecting merchant vessels than the lowly minesweepers, auxiliaries and subchasers which usually got the duty. Despite their elite status, their only practical everyday experience at ASW lay in screening warship task forces, which usually steamed at higher speeds that deterred submarine attacks and substantially simplified the destroyers' job. Not to mention that they tended to look down their noses at such tedious work.

[Admiral Halsey]

Personally I like games that make the player have to do the realistic stuff even if that means the AI is overpowered to a degree. That's is why I like TMO so much as it makes you think like a submariner.

[Bilge_Rat]

there was always an element of randomness in Japanese ASW. It could be very good on occasion. For example, USS Trout was sunk in feb. 44 by 3 veteran IJN DDs after it attacked a convoy. The big problem with the Japanese is they gave up the hunt too quickly.

On to BH's situation, an escort can detect you at 300 feet depending on various factors, i.e.:

http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

It may also be that the escort was dropping the DCs blind and just got a lucky hit. Even when an escort fails to detect you, it will still drop DCs on what it thinks is a likely spot.

[Rammstein0991]

Ironically, on those rare occasions when they were released from Combined Fleet work, Japanese fleet destroyers often displayed no greater competence at protecting merchant vessels than the lowly minesweepers, auxiliaries and subchasers which usually got the duty. Despite their elite status, their only practical everyday experience at ASW lay in screening warship task forces, which usually steamed at higher speeds that deterred submarine attacks and substantially simplified the destroyers' job. Not to mention that they tended to look down their noses at such tedious work.

They werent exactly put through the kind of training needed to get to the level we and Britain enjoyed in OUR DD's I think, part of that is no doubt Japan's racist beliefs of the time that they were invincible geniuses and that we were stupid subhuman beasts who couldnt even hold a gun properly, meaning (in their minds) they didnt need to worry about our subs having any success against them.

[Dread Knot]

They werent exactly put through the kind of training needed to get to the level we and Britain enjoyed in OUR DD's I think, part of that is no doubt Japan's racist beliefs of the time that they were invincible geniuses and that we were stupid subhuman beasts who couldnt even hold a gun properly, meaning (in their minds) they didnt need to worry about our subs having any success against them.

I don't know if I would put Japan's issues down to just contempt or arrogance, although it played a part. A big factor was just the pre-war philosophy behind the IJN which was obsessed with winning another decisive Tsushima like battle such as they had won against the Russians in 1905. Actually one Imperial Navy officer after the war summarized it best. "The Japanese naval authorities had confounded the war with battle. We built a fleet for fighting battles instead of one for fighting a war."

This philosophy also hampered Japan in other areas than escorts. Japan never had enough fleet train units, minesweepers, troopships, tenders, MTBs, specialized amphibious craft and logistical ships as well. It was all mostly spent on the battle fleet. To a degree this was true of other nations as well, but Japan was shorter in industrial resources than the USA or Britain, so the disparity was greater.

[Bubblehead1980]

I was talking about my contempt for what I saw was weak escorts, esp the Momi PB once realized it did not have active sonar and it nearly cost me my boat.Some luck was involved but I was in ideal passive sonar conditions, in a Gato and since try to play realistically, I rarely purposely take boat below 300 foot test depth, occasionally 345 to 350(as some skippers did) even though I know boat can go much deeper if forced. My contempt for the perceived weakness of the escorts, esp the momi pb being close by, lead me to stay at scope depth, and speed up to make noise after first three fish hit the large freighter(which was in far column so only fired at it, it was a 50/50 shot but managed to get it) then attacked the small one close by with two fish.

So my contempt and disregard of the threat lead me to take a risk.I tend to take calculated risks on patrol, saw this as one as that but may have overdone it.Combination of my actions, their skill, in optimal conditions and some luck.Definitely will not make same mistake again.

Far as realism, well this is 1944, Japanese ASW was pretty good by then and only improved, late war ASW was effective.TMO with RSRD provides best balance of realism and gameplay.Escorts are tough but not always impossible.I think a mod people must have is the SH AI fix, which stops them from always having active sonar on, they listen until detect you, then go active, this allows you to get close in like in RL undetected, depending on other factors of course.

[TorpX]

Sorry Bubblehead, I didn't intend to derail your thread.

It's just that all the aspects of the game that are broken (or at least do not work right), still annoy me.

Some of Duci's ideas, I like, the frequent course changes for example (i.e. zigging). Some I think went too far, the long range gun fire, for example.

[Bubblehead1980]

Sorry Bubblehead, I didn't intend to derail your thread.

It's just that all the aspects of the game that are broken (or at least do not work right), still annoy me.

Some of Duci's ideas, I like, the frequent course changes for example (i.e. zigging). Some I think went too far, the long range gun fire, for example.


No need to apologize, I agree with you for most part.I have made a lot of my personal tweaks and have things just about where want them, target for release is over the christmas holidays when have time to sit down and get all together, think it will help quite a bit.

[JoeCorrado]

Using your depth charge mod. / December 1943 Solomon Sea.

I will omit the long story of story of how I got to be in this situation, but I was held down by two destroyers for over 8 hours. They also had help from land based air support. My batteries were down to almost nothing due to the fact that this particular contact was not initiated by me- it was initiated by the destroyers. It started off with a surface contact as I was charging my batteries- at only 18 percent, I was not picking a fight. They caught me on the surface at relatively long range and had already closed and initiated an attack that caused damage with their deck guns before I realized that they were even there- (time compression and my own inattention conspired against me here) :rotfl2:

The two destroyers were very good and regardless of my varied attempts to shake free, they maintained contact with me for hour after hour. The planes also showed up and took part in the attack dropping bombs- not single bombs but groups of bombs. As my batteries passed the ten percent mark, then the five percent mark, I was contemplating the odds of a battle surface once the sun went down... in about one more hour... with full knowledge that the battle would likely be short lived once my sub hit the surface- regardless of the sun... and also knowing that we would have little choice in the matter.

What saved us in the end? The planes! One of the destroyers had just finished a pass and completed his turn- coasting into listening position and the second destroyer was starting his own run... closing in for his depth charge attack perpendicular to his buddies when a plane also made his dive to drop bombs. Guess where the bombs landed? That's right... right on top of the destroyer beginning his depth charge run! Scratch one destroyer!

After darkness- the planes at last gave us a break and the lone destroyer remaining (who I felt we could have eventually evaded... had this not turned personal over the past nine plus hours, and IF the batteries would have lasted for just a while longer... down to just 3 percent at this point) gave us what I felt was our best hope for surviving this incredibly long day- the chance to get one of our two remaining torpedoes off in his direction.

We were moving at steerage speed only (50 RPM) and hoping to creep out from under his nose- when after his last attack, sonar showed him at about the 500 meter range and slowing down to take a listen. Most importantly for us- he was going to come to rest right in front of us... lining his broadside up nicely for our two remaining torpedoes which rested impatiently in the bow tubes. All dressed up and until now, with no place to go! We were shallow enough (and on the rise at about 200 feet) after his last pass, to take a chance on getting to periscope depth quickly enough to get our shot off before he started another run. I ordered as much in hopes of catching him still stationary and like the proverbial sitting duck. With outer doors open, in slow reverse opening the range and all else in readiness before the scope broke the water's surface- we slowly came up from the depths... There he was, sitting pretty at nearly 600 yards! Torpedo Locked- and Torpedo away!

The seconds ticked by... I held my breath for the entire time that it took to reach him- I was absolutely stoked- elated- even euphoric, but most of all.... relieved when it struck home.

He took a short time to sink from sight, after which we gratefully surfaced the boat to breathe in the sweet evening air. As the crew began to relax, smiled in seeming dis-belief and voice dismayed whispers - I knew that I didn't deserve to be here after my own form of contempt for the enemy had placed us all in such mortal jeopardy. But here we were; alive and with air enough for me to hoarsely order two engines on line for charging and two for propulsion, we headed for the barn and some much needed R&R.

Enjoying your mod, by the way. My boat should definitely be at the bottom as my bag of tricks was quite empty and all to no avail. It took blind luck and the fog of war more than me myself, to save our sub! :rock:

[Bubblehead1980]

Using your depth charge mod. / December 1943 Solomon Sea.

I will omit the long story of story of how I got to be in this situation, but I was held down by two destroyers for over 8 hours. They also had help from land based air support. My batteries were down to almost nothing due to the fact that this particular contact was not initiated by me- it was initiated by the destroyers. It started off with a surface contact as I was charging my batteries- at only 18 percent, I was not picking a fight. They caught me on the surface at relatively long range and had already closed and initiated an attack that caused damage with their deck guns before I realized that they were even there- (time compression and my own inattention conspired against me here) :rotfl2:

The two destroyers were very good and regardless of my varied attempts to shake free, they maintained contact with me for hour after hour. The planes also showed up and took part in the attack dropping bombs- not single bombs but groups of bombs. As my batteries passed the ten percent mark, then the five percent mark, I was contemplating the odds of a battle surface once the sun went down... in about one more hour... with full knowledge that the battle would likely be short lived once my sub hit the surface- regardless of the sun... and also knowing that we would have little choice in the matter.

What saved us in the end? The planes! One of the destroyers had just finished a pass and completed his turn- coasting into listening position and the second destroyer was starting his own run... closing in for his depth charge attack perpendicular to his buddies when a plane also made his dive to drop bombs. Guess where the bombs landed? That's right... right on top of the destroyer beginning his depth charge run! Scratch one destroyer!

After darkness- the planes at last gave us a break and the lone destroyer remaining (who I felt we could have eventually evaded... had this not turned personal over the past nine plus hours, and IF the batteries would have lasted for just a while longer... down to just 3 percent at this point) gave us what I felt was our best hope for surviving this incredibly long day- the chance to get one of our two remaining torpedoes off in his direction.

We were moving at steerage speed only (50 RPM) and hoping to creep out from under his nose- when after his last attack, sonar showed him at about the 500 meter range and slowing down to take a listen. Most importantly for us- he was going to come to rest right in front of us... lining his broadside up nicely for our two remaining torpedoes which rested impatiently in the bow tubes. All dressed up and until now, with no place to go! We were shallow enough (and on the rise at about 200 feet) after his last pass, to take a chance on getting to periscope depth quickly enough to get our shot off before he started another run. I ordered as much in hopes of catching him still stationary and like the proverbial sitting duck. With outer doors open, in slow reverse opening the range and all else in readiness before the scope broke the water's surface- we slowly came up from the depths... There he was, sitting pretty at nearly 600 yards! Torpedo Locked- and Torpedo away!

The seconds ticked by... I held my breath for the entire time that it took to reach him- I was absolutely stoked- elated- even euphoric, but most of all.... relieved when it struck home.

He took a short time to sink from sight, after which we gratefully surfaced the boat to breathe in the sweet evening air. As the crew began to relax, smiled in seeming dis-belief and voice dismayed whispers - I knew that I didn't deserve to be here after my own form of contempt for the enemy had placed us all in such mortal jeopardy. But here we were; alive and with air enough for me to hoarsely order two engines on line for charging and two for propulsion, we headed for the barn and some much needed R&R.

Enjoying your mod, by the way. My boat should definitely be at the bottom as my bag of tricks was quite empty and all to no avail. It took blind luck and the fog of war more than me myself, to save our sub! :rock:

Glad you are enjoying it.I have two new versions coming out soon...one is for use after June of 43(after the Congressmen May leak) when IJN depth charges got heavier and had detonators that could be set at more depth.The second is for before the incident, the charges pack less punch and will only detonate at one depth.This is a work around since in the game, cant mimic reality where the detonators before the May incident could only be set 50, 100, 200 feet so solution is to set depth precision to 0, so AI can only set charges to one depth. This enables early war players more of an ability to get under the charges but if get caught at their detonation depth, lack the punch in most cases to give a killing blow, unless lands right on top of sub.

Another mod I have put together is adjusting the hit points on all the subs, to make hulls stronger and stop the killing blows from depth charges.The equipment has it's own hit points so can still take plenty of damage and lost the boat to uncontrolled flooding etc .Side advantage of this is it allows player to to sit on the bottom as well for long periods of time without destroying the hull.Yet, I left it where sub in not invulnerable.Part of this I also raised the hit points and damage radius on mines(they were way too low which is why people survived them)

The "riveted" subs like the Porpoise class are less durable(as were in real life), the Sargo and Salmon's have slightly stronger hulls, as do the Tambor Gar and then Gato, Balao, and Tench are strongest. This and the depth charge mods bring about a much more realistic experience , still plenty of danger, but the insta death bs is basically solved.

[TorpX]

Nice story, Joe. :salute:



Another mod I have put together is adjusting the hit points on all the subs...

What do you use to check or adjust the hit points?

[Armistead]

Sorry Bubblehead, I didn't intend to derail your thread.

It's just that all the aspects of the game that are broken (or at least do not work right), still annoy me.

Some of Duci's ideas, I like, the frequent course changes for example (i.e. zigging). Some I think went too far, the long range gun fire, for example.


Honestly, most of the pieces are there to fix it, just scattered out in various mods that don't work together...

I don't play anymore, maybe one day, but I got my setup fairly close to where I liked it.

Just finished the "Battle of Java Sea" an older book, but made me want to load up and sink that damn TF.....

[Bubblehead1980]

Nice story, Joe. :salute:



What do you use to check or adjust the hit points?



S3D program

[TorpX]

Just finished the "Battle of Java Sea" an older book, but made me want to load up and sink that damn TF.....
I'm almost finished with UNDERSEA WARRIOR , about Mush Morton. I want to start a career soon, but I want to upgrade my machine, and anything I start now might end up being cut short.



Bubblehead, I didn't know S3D allowed you to edit damage zones. I've never been able to get anything like that out of it. I can see the damage points for the torpedoes, shells and such, but the ships and subs damage zones/hit points are a mystery to me.

[Leon West]

Hate to hijack the thread, so please forgive me, but Darkwraith's Depth Charge Water Disturbance for SH4 has a broken link in his original topic. I was able to download the fixes just fine, but the gamefront link in the release thread for the original mod itself is broken...

I just spent 20 minutes searching in the downloads section here as well for the mod. It sounds perfect. Does anyone know where I can find it?