Do Destroyers and Escorts use different sonar/hydrophones?

[Bubblehead1980]

Noticed Destroyers, even when set to elite, even in later war, with exception of Akizuki usually lack the zeal and ability to track and kill my sub as opposed to the escorts.Just wondering if they use different equipment or? Example: Feb 1944. Matsu No 1 Convoy(I added this convoy to RSRD) off Okianawa(convoy carrying troops from Manchuria to Guam) Trout attacked, later destroyed by her escorts in area Closet. I had the USS Trout actually and testing to make sure convoy turned up at correct place on historically accurate time/date, I went to the area and made contact at correct location at 1230 on 29 Feb 1944.

Attacked, sank large troopship with 6 mark 18 torpedoes from 3,000 yards, sunk other with stern tube Mark 14's. Then went deep as 3 Yagumo DD's closed in. They seemed to never really have a lock on me despite ideal sonar conditons, I was making plenty of noise for a while during the follow up attack and was at Trout's shallow test depth of 250 feet.Some close charges shook boat, some minor damage in one case but soon after they lost me and gave up.These escorts were all set to ELITE but acted like total amateurs.

Night surface attack sank another, then follow up dawn attack I sank last transport plus a DD that strolled in front of me while Mark 18's were en route to target.As soon as the last four mark 18's hit, tubes 5 and 6, which had mark 14's were fired at the Yagumo DD that was just 1200 yards in front of my, one hit amidships despite his attempt to speed up.The DD's rushed in dropped some charges, then never pushed home the attack/

Had I conducted myself like this around escorts like the Type AB or C/D etc, I would have been in trouble.The lack of tenacity in supposedly elite destroyers disturbed me.Trying to figure this out.DD's were much better sub killers than this.

Noticed though that when tangling with most full sized DD's, they lack the effectiveness(exception being the Akizuki) .Anyone else notice this? Anyone know why this is? Different equipment?

[c13Garrison]

I'm not sure I have enough experience with TMO/RSRD to know anything about your exact question, but I do know that in about 20 patrols over 3 careers only Once did "Test & Slow" fail to shake hunters.

In a slight observational aside, subchasers and minelayers seem utterly useless in an antisubmarine role, as I'm sure many know.

-on the road

[Bubblehead1980]

I'm not sure I have enough experience with TMO/RSRD to know anything about your exact question, but I do know that in about 20 patrols over 3 careers only Once did "Test & Slow" fail to shake hunters.

In a slight observational aside, subchasers and minelayers seem utterly useless in an antisubmarine role, as I'm sure many know.

-on the road

Are you running stock? TMO/RSRD the minesweepers and subchasers are some of the tougher opponents.Then in 43 and 44 the Type A/B /CD escorts come in, they are vicious. Just kills me when fleet destroyer like 3 Yagumos I know are set to elite cant find me in ideal conditions when i was making plenty of noise for a while, which was a risk was willing to take to get the second ship.They were moving at 16 knots so end around was not exactly quick.

[Armistead]

I have seen the same behavior. It does seem DD's don't hunt or attack as well.
You could check each ship class in the Sea file, open sns and look at sonar used for each time period.

It's been a long time, but seems most escorts and DD's get about the same sonar improvements at about the same time.

[Bubblehead1980]

I have seen the same behavior. It does seem DD's don't hunt or attack as well.
You could check each ship class in the Sea file, open sns and look at sonar used for each time period.

It's been a long time, but seems most escorts and DD's get about the same sonar improvements at about the same time.

Opened it up, little confusing, guess will figure it out.

[Armistead]

Opened it up, little confusing, guess will figure it out.


Just open each enemy class in the Sea folder and open the sns folder with notepad. That should show different sensors, including sonar. Basically any Type 93 or Type 3 entry. I think each has a P or A for passive or active. The Type 3 is the better, so I would compare, but I'm pretty sure sonar progresses for both DD's and escorts through the war about the same time.

Of course to adjust the sonar values, you would have to go to AI sensors in Library.

It's been a long time since I've looked at those, maybe Webster or tater would know more.

The question is, all things being equal, same sonar, why do escorts seem to attack much better than DD's? I agree, I see this same behavior, but never really bothered me.

[TorpX]

You say you set all the DD's to elite? Seems odd, especially about their lack of persistence.

I don't know what the game provides in the way of sound gear, but if they all get the latest at the same time, it is highly unrealistic. First, they would have to manufacture the equipment (not easy for Japan to do), then the DD's would have to be taken out of service for the installation, and if they were to be capable, a period of training would follow. All this would take time.

Is it possible that the sound conditions vary? (I mean apart from the wind and waves.)

[Armistead]

Bubble.

Check my patrol report in "Stories and Patrols" thread, post 470. Most of those are set to elite in 45. I notice one big difference with elites, is they attack together from numerous angles. As you can see in the SS, often they make runs side by side. I couldn't escape this attack even with cams on, as those Type ABs, sometimes 3 at one time all dumping charges, that's about 100 charges per run. Notice how some listen and other attack.

I always notice a big difference in elites attacking. Basically, they use 100% of their sensor range.

[in_vino_vomitus]

I'm glad you pointed those out - they're brilliant - Excellent screenshots too - Thanks :)

[Bubblehead1980]

Bubble.

Check my patrol report in "Stories and Patrols" thread, post 470. Most of those are set to elite in 45. I notice one big difference with elites, is they attack together from numerous angles. As you can see in the SS, often they make runs side by side. I couldn't escape this attack even with cams on, as those Type ABs, sometimes 3 at one time all dumping charges, that's about 100 charges per run. Notice how some listen and other attack.

I always notice a big difference in elites attacking. Basically, they use 100% of their sensor range.

The Type A/B, C/D escorts, Matsu's, escorts, and Akizuki DD are usually tough as hell when set to elite.I have noticed though, such as in the op I posted about, DD's just seem to lack the persistence usually as well as the skill, even when set to elite to be a threat. This bothers me since Destroyers, esp later war were rather effective subkillers.

I found it a bit much that in late Feb 1944, 3 Yagumo DD's set to elite, in ideal sonar conditions, couldnt get a peg on me and didnt bother to work me over much.

I plan to go over the files soon and see what turns up, if they have different sonar, may see about giving them better equipment or something if possible.

[Dread Knot]

The Type A/B, C/D escorts, Matsu's, escorts, and Akizuki DD are usually tough as hell when set to elite.I have noticed though, such as in the op I posted about, DD's just seem to lack the persistence usually as well as the skill, even when set to elite to be a threat. This bothers me since Destroyers, esp later war were rather effective subkillers.


I'm wondering if the game doesn't have it correct. I've looked at the Naval History and Heritage site where it lists US submarine losses by causes and there seems to be only five instances between 1943 and 1945 where the loss of a US sub can be attributed to a Japanese destroyer. (alone or with other vesels/aircraft) According to the list the most lethal Japanese subkillers seem to be the purpose built escorts, destroyer escorts, subchasers, coast defense vessels, minelayers/sweepers and mines. Perhaps because these ships were more plentiful for convoy use or operated in shallow water more often. Destroyers tend to get hogged by the admirals for fleet escort duty.


Grampus (SS-207) Feb or Mar 43 71 killed Sunk either by Japanese naval aircraft (958th Kokutai) southeast of New Britain on 19 February or by destroyer Minegumo in Blackett Strait on the night of 5-6 March.
　
Triton (SS-201) 15 Mar 43 74 killed Sunk either by Japanese destroyer Satsuki or submarine chaser Ch 24 north of Admiralty Islands.
　
Trout (SS-202) 29 Feb 44 81 killed Most likely sunk by Japanese destroyer Asashimo in Philippine Sea
　
Shark (SS-314) 24 Oct 44 87 killed Sunk by Japanese depth charges from Harukaze, South China Sea
　
Growler (SS-215) 8 Nov 44 86 killed Probably sunk by Japanese destroyer Shigure, escort vessel Chiburi, and Coast Defense Vessel No. 19 off Mindoro.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq39-1.htm

[Admiral Halsey]

You missed one.

[Dread Knot]

You missed one.

I may have missed two. The exact cause of the Grampus sinking is still unknown.

Argonaut (APS-1) 10 Jan 43 104 killed Sunk by aircraft (582d Kokutai) and Japanese destroyers Isokaze and Maikaze southeast of New Britain in Solomon Sea.


Grampus (SS-207) Feb or Mar 43 71 killed
Sunk either by Japanese naval aircraft (958th Kokutai) southeast
of New Britain on 19 February or by destroyer Minegumo in Blackett
Strait on the night of 5-6 March.

[Admiral Halsey]

You still forgot one.(It's the very first one on the list.)

[Dread Knot]

You still forgot one.(It's the very first one on the list.)

I was only counting US subs lost to destroyers between 1943 and 45. Not the whole war. The OP stated that destroyers were effective sub killers late in the war. Their smaller brethren seem to have accounted for more subs lost in that period.

[Admiral Halsey]

My bad.

[Dread Knot]

My bad.

No problem. :)

I guess the question I'm trying to resolve is whether Japanese destroyers historically were not as effective as smaller craft at ASW. Or were you as a US skipper more likely to have an encounter with these smaller craft because there were more of them and the Japanese were somewhat loathe to use their dwindling numbers of elite fleet destroyers to protect merchantmen? I'm thinking the latter.

[Admiral Halsey]

Honestly I would have been more afraid of planes then Destroyers.(Though my last play through I didn't encounter a single one after January of 45.)

[Bubblehead1980]

No problem. :)

I guess the question I'm trying to resolve is whether Japanese destroyers historically were not as effective as smaller craft at ASW. Or were you as a US skipper more likely to have an encounter with these smaller craft because there were more of them and the Japanese were somewhat loathe to use their dwindling numbers of elite fleet destroyers to protect merchantmen? I'm thinking the latter.

US subs were more likely to encounter "escorts" with convoys, esp as war went on and DD losses mounted, the fleet destroyers were tied up spending most of their time with task forces and important warships.After the fleet was gone in later war, many were back on convoy duty, or what was left of them anyways.Those listed are the ones we know for sure were lost to destroyers, others could have been.Many more were damaged and suffered severe, accurate, prolonged, and persistent counter attacks at the hands of destroyers.Read about many of them in various books, articles etc. The Tang's encounter in Feb 1944 with a destroyer. The Barb in June 45 encountered an Akizuki class that gave her a lot of troubles.The USS Jack encountered quite a few of them. Many destroyers received top of the line sonar gear before the smaller escorts etc.Japanese destroyers were no pushovers in later war.Of course, all depends on captain and crew.Point is, at this late in war, with three top of the line destroyers set to ELITE, they should not have been push over.If this was an anomaly of some sorts, i would say okay, but this seems to be a common thing now and it takes away from the game. Makes task forces way too easy to attack sometimes as they are escorted by DD's.Then you have the encounter I posted about, 3 Yagumo DD's, set to elite, in ideal conditions against a shallow diving boat at 250 feet.Yet I know if the escorts had been the Type AB or C/D escorts or subchasers, i would have had a hell of a time getting away. I was asking if this was a universal experience as I plan to fix this if possible when released my mod.