Encountering ships with pre-existing damage.

[in_vino_vomitus]

Made first contact with a convoy in OM. and noticed that there appeared to be ships in it with fires. I thought it was a nice touch. I'm told that you can't spawn ships with pre-existing damage, so I'm now wondering if that's actually what I saw. As luck would have it, I managed to get some screenshots. The smoke looks different and there's a faint orange dot, that could be fire, although it's not visible through the binocs. I didn't see any damaged ships once I was in amongst the convoy, but I was submerged and it was a big convoy. They could have been there without me seeing them.

The real bummer was that I didn't save after attacking [or during] and the game crashed on my way home through the Dover Straits, so I ended up going back to a previous position and I never saw this bunch again :( Anyway, here are the screenshots. To me they look like ships are on fire, but I concede it's far from conclusive - What do people think?



http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3690/9400437400_04a3ca0050_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2877/9400437614_de5f81b8d9_b.jpg

[fireftr18]

It does look like ships can be on fire. I would say that the smoke is from the smoke stacks and the glow is a searchlight from a destroyer.

:Kaleun_Binocular:

[Webster]

ships don't spawn with damage but they can receive damage when spawned if they are too close to something.

I have even seen ships spawn on top of each other or land or even a dock and cause one to sink as a result.

ships do sink with different damage so I think some ships are spawned "weaker" then normal but I have never seen one spawn with visible damage

[in_vino_vomitus]

Well - that could be the case with the smoke, but whatever else the orange dots were, I'd say there was no way they were searchlights - But the smoke seems different in density from the trails from the smokestacks. I shall definitely be looking out for confirmation if I ever see this again....

[BrucePartington]

I know I may not be adding anything to really clarify this mystery.
But FWIW, I have come across damaged ships in convoys, more than once. Some with flames and smoke and/or w/ decks awash.
Only in one instance it made sense to me, since before getting any closer to the convoy, my lookouts spotted allied aircraft flying over, and later on red plumes were spotted on the ocean, towards which I ordered Ahead Flank.
Such sightings have been rare though.

[in_vino_vomitus]

It goes some way towards convincing me I don't have an overactive imagination - I mean I do, but it's nice to know it might not be fabricating this. - The first time I saw dense smoke coming from a ship in a convoy, just over the horizon, I thought it was an authentic touch. then, someone who knows, said that you can't spawn ships with damage and, to be honest, that makes sense. Then I saw the convoy in the screenshots below, and it really doesn't look like smoke from funnels. Also it turns out that ships can get damaged by other things that players don't control. So now I'm wondering if the damaged ships in convoys are there because somebody thought it would add to the realism, or if it's just an accidental feature of the way that the convoys are spawned.

Either way it's a nice touch....

[TorpX]

I hadn't thought of it before, but it's possible they could also be damaged when their convoy takes a zig and they bump into each other. I don't know how likely that is, but it is possible.

[Armistead]

Any damaged ships would have to happen after they spawn in your contact zone. Either they ran into each other or hit by US planes, etc. However, I have seen rare bugs where ships are damaged.

[Cybermat47]

Either they ran into each other or hit by US planes, etc.

Why would US planes attack British ships? Is this a glitch of some kind?

[Admiral Halsey]

Why would US planes attack British ships? Is this a glitch of some kind?

No they would be German planes.

[Bubblehead1980]

Most of the time, it's prob from a spawn bug or a collision while you were closing.I was recently in luzon straits in 1944 and moving ahead one afternoon to attack a convoy, a convoy from the north came into radar range, they were going to come awful close, in fact, both had about 12 ships each(large by IJN) standards.I closed and soon saw them running into one another, one small merchant was rammed by a large tanker, it caught fire and went down.Checked the nav map, there was a sunken ship icon.

I have also seen a heavy cruiser run over a small escort before and slice it in two.I've seen collisions cause damage and fire but not a sinking.Unseen attacks is also possible.I know for a fact in the solomons where I put PT boats patroling at nights, they use their guns to shoot up the small japanese ships, when i arrive on scene some are on fire. Translate this over to the ATO, there are many likely causes.Enemy action is possible but more than likely from collisions etc

[in_vino_vomitus]

It's interesting to me on a couple of levels. The game is pretty immersive anyway, and so seeing smoking ships in a convoy, my first thought was a difficult one to verbalise. When you hear e.g. gunfire from another company's patch, there's a feeling of connection. Your teammates are at work out there somewhere - anyway, I had a flash of that when I saw the smoke, and then I thought about having that feeling in response to pixels in a game, and I grinned and thought it was a clever touch on the part of the modder. After reading the replies here, I'm wondering if it's not an emergent phenomenon - an unintended consequence of a complex simulation, and it's interesting how that gets woven into the storyline that we create for the game we're playing - I mean, I do that and I'm assuming at least one other person does....

The last person to fire me said, on more than one occasion that I think too much about things. He may have had a point :)

[merc4ulfate]

nein nein nein

This has to do with the sea state. Ships can be damaged by sea states and I have seen this a lot off shore of England with the UBoat Add on. Most of the time, if not all of them, I have seen this the sea state is extremely rough.

Even during a surface attack I am constantly be submerged and have to run back and forth from below decks to top side for firing or using the deck gun. The ships have sustained damaged due to the extremely rough sea, especially in shallow water. This also makes them quite vulnerable to single torpedo sinking ... which I take full advantage of.

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
OpsMonsun_V705
OMv705_to_V720
OMv720_Patch5
OMEGU_v300
OMEGU_v300_Patch7
OM_Med_Env
OM_Harder_Escort_L2
UBM Missions
Popular German Music From The 30´s

[in_vino_vomitus]

That's a very good point - Have just come across another convoy and this time got right in the middle of it - one tanker was definitely burning and the sea was pretty rough............

[grislyatoms]

Approaching ports (Iwo, Chichi?, and Haha? Jima for example) at night I have seen ships at dock. Drop periscope to plan attack, raise periscope again and...

fires on the beach, ships sunk at their moorings. Space of a few minutes.
Always puzzled over that.

[grislyatoms]

Considering what Webster said - spawned too close the dock and kaboom?

[BrucePartington]

Considering what Webster said - spawned too close the dock and kaboom?
I would think that to be the case.
I noticed the game creates / spawns world and objects in general, that are within sight of the player. Once the player is far enough, the world is "despawned", to save resources.
I would think that on approaching a port, when the radar first detects ships near or at the docks, they are really not there, until the player gets close enough. If the ships are wrongly positioned in relation to the docks, when they spawn they get instantly damaged.
One such case is the ships docked at Rabaul, particularly the one farther to the right (of the player, when one is facing the docks).

Back to damaged ships in high sea.
Just yesterday my radar spotted a convoy. In convoy there were 4 battle ships (unknown type) and 2 merchants on the right hand lane. Escorting were 5 DD's
Not heavy sea / swells.
Zooming in the map I see the typical three lane formation, 700 yards away from each other.
After a few minutes, they close the lanes in a tight formation, probably 400 yards or so. Almost immediately one of the battle ships from the left hand lane swerves to the right and gets very near one of the merchants. The merchants start sailing erratically and falling behind. After a while all ships within convoy went crazy.
Finally, upon nearing my position, the battle ships fall back into orderly formation. The merchants try, but are running slowly.

Finally within visual range, I see 2 Medium sized tankers decks awash, in what seems like the typical evasive manoeuvres. In the middle there were 2 Hyriu carriers.
Only the tankers were damaged.
Again, no heavy seas, no air attacks, no shallows. They just rammed each other for no apparent reason.

[in_vino_vomitus]

Approaching ports (Iwo, Chichi?, and Haha? Jima for example) at night I have seen ships at dock. Drop periscope to plan attack, raise periscope again and...

fires on the beach, ships sunk at their moorings. Space of a few minutes.
Always puzzled over that.


This is one of the reasons behind the creation of Combined Ops during WWII - I can't remember the actual name of the operation, but it's the one they made the film "Cockleshell Heroes" from

Anyway, the marines sent people upriver in kayaks to attack ships in harbour, and SOE had a team on the ground who were going to attack them by sneaking aboard and planting explosives. After the marines attacked - with limited results, security was ramped up to a level that made the SOE plan unworkable. Combined Ops came about because of the obvious need to coordinate the allocation of targets. neither group was aware the other had been tasked, and ironically, if the marines had asked SOE to help them exfiltrate their people, then SOE might have told them there was no need to even send them........

Anyway, it looks like your targets got hit by a spec. ops team....

I have no idea how what you saw [I]really came about, but that's what it looks like :)

[TorpX]

Only the tankers were damaged.
Again, no heavy seas, no air attacks, no shallows. They just rammed each other for no apparent reason.
It sounds like either they were trying to evade you and bumped into each other, or in making a course change, they messed up. Different types of ships have different turning characteristics. I've read here that, historically, the intervals between ships were greater, than in game. The ships' AI obviously leaves something to be desired.

[Webster]

I hadn't thought of it before, but it's possible they could also be damaged when their convoy takes a zig and they bump into each other. I don't know how likely that is, but it is possible.


yep, the AI is really spastic acting when its an all out alert to all merchant ships and some ships will zig-zag while others go into long s-turns and some just circle back doing a 360 on their own course so whenever there is a scramble of convoy ships they always seam to have a collision.

warships seam to have less problems scrambling as a group and its only the DD and light cruisers that run into or get run over other ships


also as was pointed out by someone the game does record "some" damage to ships from heavy storms if the water gets high enough over the decks. in most cases this is a side affect of using a mod like Op Monsun that adds a lot of ships to the game without properly correcting draft heights and such for them.

[BrucePartington]

It sounds like either they were trying to evade you and bumped into each other, or in making a course change, they messed up. Different types of ships have different turning characteristics. I've read here that, historically, the intervals between ships were greater, than in game. The ships' AI obviously leaves something to be desired.

What you say is valid.
However it was neither in this instance.
I was too far away. No visual contact. Following by radar. It was night time and the convoy was more than 15 land miles away.
And only the outer ships "misbehaved", after the convoy tightened formation (which I had never seen before). The two Hyriu carriers in the center lane / track did no move initially, neither did the DD escorts.
Mainly, the convoy's course remained unaltered until I wreaked havoc among them:D

[BrucePartington]

yep, the AI is really spastic acting when its an all out alert to all merchant ships and some ships will zig-zag while others go into long s-turns and some just circle back doing a 360 on their own course so whenever there is a scramble of convoy ships they always seam to have a collision.

warships seam to have less problems scrambling as a group and its only the DD and light cruisers that run into or get run over other ships

(snip).
Question: could this be intended to simulate panic?
Merchants Captains less disciplined than IJN capital ships Captains?

[Popeye the Salior]

I think your right

[merc4ulfate]

I have only seen this happen in port on bad installation of mods or orders of the mods causing issues.

[TorpX]

There is something else I thought of. This happened to me a long time ago with an earlier version of RFB. I made an attack on a convoy of mixed ships and escorts; later I saw a small minesweeper that looked like it was burning. This was strange to me as I had not targeted any such ship, but thought maybe it was hit by a stray torpedo. After observing it over time, it became apparent that it was not really damaged, but that the smoke was just excessive. Instead of coming out the stack, it seemed to be coming out the middle of the ship. In other words, it was just a graphical imperfection.

[BrucePartington]

There is something else I thought of. This happened to me a long time ago with an earlier version of RFB. I made an attack on a convoy of mixed ships and escorts; later I saw a small minesweeper that looked like it was burning. This was strange to me as I had not targeted any such ship, but thought maybe it was hit by a stray torpedo. After observing it over time, it became apparent that it was not really damaged, but that the smoke was just excessive. Instead of coming out the stack, it seemed to be coming out the middle of the ship. In other words, it was just a graphical imperfection.

Very true.
I have a little screenie collection of such imperfections, including some very strange dark patches hovering above water where nothing happened, like they were sci-fi portals of some kind.
I need to take a look at the instructions on how to share images here.
Yes, I realize I should know how to do that by now. Sometimes I get lazy.