What got you interested in WWII submarines? [Archive]

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DrewC

07-02-13, 01:31 PM

SilentPrey

07-02-13, 02:41 PM

I'm 29, just FYI. First real book I read was Shirer's Sinking of the Bismark. I repeated it and an Edwin Hoyt book about PT Boats called Deadly Craft so many times that both of them are just covers holding loose pages now. Those and a copy of the Reader's Digest World War II in Europe video cassettes and I was thoroughly hooked on WWII.

For submarines, Tom Clancy's books and movies. WWII submarines because that's the last time they were actually in combat and the games for WWII are so much more refined than the modern ones are. Also, almost everything about the WWII subs is declassified. I'm a purist and it irks me to know that what I'm reading or playing is intentionally altered away from reality whether it's for a good cause or not.

Sailor Steve

07-02-13, 03:34 PM

Watching Silent Service on TV in the '50s.

Red October1984

07-02-13, 04:11 PM

Silent Hunter 2 and Subsim.

I started playing an old copy of SH2 on my old Windows 98 Desktop in my basement about two years ago...

I haven't looked back yet. :03:

u crank

07-02-13, 05:05 PM

Funny you should mention SH2 Red.

Actually I came at it from the other end. I was always interested in all things naval, especially WW2 and the Battle of the Atlantic, but from the Royal Navy and RCN point of view. One day I saw this

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQl6cHIAXa1iqbt93j7R4UIR9SVz0twU eH7OUNKU-piQc8-EJx7

on sale and bought it mainly for IL2. I tried SH2 and was hooked.

I've been under water ever since.:salute:

razark

07-02-13, 05:19 PM

It's been so long I don't even remember. My first subsim was 1983's Gato, followed by Silent Service a few years later.

Damn, I've been subsimming for 30 years?!?

Red October1984

07-02-13, 06:15 PM

DrewC

07-02-13, 07:06 PM

I still can remember the first time I actually hit something with manual targeting in SHII.
:smug:

Overkill

07-02-13, 07:33 PM

Play'n MicroProse Silent Service on the Commodore 64 as a kid. I can still remember the very first time I played it. Instantly hooked.

Now if we can just get 'em to remake TF1942 and PAW1942...

razark

07-02-13, 07:35 PM

I still can remember the first time I actually hit something with manual targeting in SHII.
I remember the first thing I hit with manual targeting. My head against the desk! I never really caught on to manual targeting until I'd been playing SH4 for a few years.

Now if we can just get 'em to remake TF1942
I could get behind that. I miss the good old Microprose simulations.

Red October1984

07-02-13, 07:43 PM

I still can remember the first time I actually hit something with manual targeting in SHII.
:smug:

I remember missing hundreds of times trying to figure it out on my own. :oops:

Bubblehead1980

07-02-13, 07:48 PM

Visiting the USS Drum in Mobile, AL(grew up 50 miles or so away in Florida) as a kid and watching the old submarine movies...Run Silent, Run Deep, etc as a kid.However, being from the "Cradle of Naval Aviation" I was hooked on WW II Naval Aviation growing up (frequent trips to the National Museum of Naval Aviation) but always found it interesting.Anyway, few years ago was in a terrible car accident, spent a summer stuck in the house, my girlfriend at the time saw SH 4 at Best Buy, knowing I am a "history nerd", she purchased it to keep me occupied.I was hooked the moment I played it, but after finding subsim, reading some of the skipper's books etc it has evolved into a major interest of mine. The impact of US submarines in WW II is still largely not known, a lot of it has to do with the silent service culture.

Red October1984

07-02-13, 07:56 PM

The impact of US submarines in WW II is still largely not known, a lot of it has to do with the silent service culture.

I had no idea that the Americans even operated Submarines in WW2 until like 6 months after I signed up for Subsim. I always thought it was a German thing.

But I've gotten smarter since then....the US Silent Service is my main interest under the category of submarines. I've been hooked ever since I got SH4...and now I have Pacific Aces and I love those old submarine movies.

Run Silent Run Deep, Destination Tokyo, Crash Dive, and Operation Pacific are among my favorites. :arrgh!:

pabbi

07-02-13, 08:29 PM

Silent Hunter I commanders edition, although i have been interested in subs and WWII since i was a young boy.

CapnScurvy

07-02-13, 08:42 PM

My interest in WWII came naturally, from my father, who was involved in the Pacific Theater for nearly three years. His U.S. Army Tank Battalion was one of the first to be sent to the Pacific (they had trained in Pine Camp New York thinking they would be sent to Europe, but in '42 they were heading west to the Pacific). Dad's island hopping while in the Solomon Islands, then on to the liberation of the Philippines, gives me a special interest in the Pacific war. Dad/Mom took us kids to his Tank Reunions whenever they went. It was great to hear some of their stories as I got older, since Dad never talked much about the war.

It was only later could I understand that those that "bragged" about their efforts really didn't see much combat. Those on the front lines, day after day, didn't need to talk about it unless it was with someone who had experienced the same. Actually it took Dad many years to open up about the horror of war to anyone other than his Battalion buddies. It wasn't until just before his death, did I learn of his valor with receiving a Bronze Star, and Purple Heart while in the Battle of Manila. I knew he had been wounded. I had seen his scars, and heard he still had a piece of metal in his knee, but, he never brought it up.

My interest in Subs came with one of my first PC games titled "Sub Battle Simulator" by Epyx. I first played it on a Mono Chrome monitor (black and white for those who aren't as old as me), then added a 13" RGB monitor to my system.......that cost 500 dollars!! Talk about being on the cutting edge!! :88)

TorpX

07-02-13, 11:51 PM

I've been interested in history, especially military history, since I was a kid, but mostly I liked books and movies about land warfare, and infantry combat. After I got a hand-me-down computer, I happened to come upon SHCE in the discount bin of the local computer big box store. To be honest, my decision to buy it was more due to the fact that the system requirements seemed to fall within my machine's limited capabilities, than any pre-existing interest in the subject. I didn't start playing right away, but when I finally got around to installing and playing, I was astounded at the level of detail and thought that went into it.

SHCE lead me to read O'Kane's books, and I've been pretty much hooked, since.

Red October1984

07-03-13, 12:04 AM

TorpX

07-03-13, 12:18 AM

I had a great deal of fun with it. I really enjoyed being on patrol in my S-boat, and at times, solving some interesting (at least to me) geometry problems.

I would probably play it some now, but I could never get it installed on Computus Vistamus.

Red October1984

07-03-13, 12:22 AM

TorpX

07-03-13, 12:54 AM

Right now, I'm too busy to fool with it. Maybe I'll try it again when I finish my AFS project.

Red October1984

07-03-13, 12:58 AM

Right now, I'm too busy to fool with it. Maybe I'll try it again when I finish my AFS project.

Alright. Drop me a line (but not a depth charge) when you have time and I'll help you out if you need it. :salute:

in_vino_vomitus

07-03-13, 05:10 AM

My interest in Military History probably stems from my Father and Grandfather, who served in the RN during their respective World Wars. I bucked the trend by joining the Army. My main interest is the warfare in the Trenches of WW1 and my knowledge of submarine warfare in the pacific was sketchy to say the least. To my mind it paralleled our experience with Bomber Command, i.e. taking the fight to the enemy in the only way possible at the time. My Dad never talked about his time in the Navy much, and he died pretty young - about my age in fact. One thing he did say though was that it was hard to get girls if the Yanks were in port, because they had so many medal ribbons on their uniforms - the solution to this was to glue sweet wrappers to a strip of cardboard and attach it in the appropriate place. I have no idea if this is true or not, but I want it to be :)

Really it's playing this game that ramped up my interest, and by "This game" I mean TMO. The stock game was fun, but not anything special. I can't even remember how I came upon these forums. I think I was looking for a game patch. I heard people talking about a thing called TMO, and I took a look and I was pretty instantly hooked. From getting immersed in the game it was a natural progression to looking into the stories behind it. Some of which i'd heard before - I remember reading a book as a schoolboy, but not really comprehending. I had no idea about the extent of the torpedo problem for instance.

Anyway - for me it was the game that sparked an interest in the underlying story, rather than the other way round, which is hardly surprising. I imagine that for Americans, the submarine war in the Pacific is as significant as the battle of Britain is to us.

BigWalleye

07-03-13, 06:46 AM

The Silent Service TV show, especially the story of Mush Morton and the Wahoo. The original Silent Hunter game, incredibly immersive and well-done considering the puny technology of the time. All the books by all the US submariners - Beach, Calvert, Fluckey, Gallantin, O'Kane, Ruhe, Ruiz, Sterling - who told the story as they had lived it. And, of course, Clay Blair, the Samuel Morison of the US Submarine Service.

Red October1984

07-03-13, 07:00 AM

I imagine that for Americans, the submarine war in the Pacific is as significant as the battle of Britain is to us.

Well, I actually never heard a peep about it until I joined Subsim. We teach the Battle of Britain more than the Sub War.

It's not in our school history books and it's just not a real big part of the war according to the teachers. I wish they'd change that. Not many people realize the significance of the Submarine War in the Pacific.

Hinrich Schwab

07-03-13, 07:15 AM

Hey everyone!
I'm 19 years old and would like to regard myself as a WWII history buff. Without a doubt the main thing that got me interested in WWII at a young age (9 or 10) was the constant watching all the old war movies with my dad and brothers- Run Silent Run Deep, The Enemy Below, The Great Escape, Stalag 17, The Desert Rats, Patton, Guadacanal Diaries, Kelly's Heroes, etc, etc. This led to discovering for myself a ton of great war books as well: Das Boot, multiple books by Ambrose, etc. My favorite has got to be Robert Sherrod's account of the Battle of Tarawa. However, the submarine scene has always captivated me the most, and I have to say that I can trace the roots of that back to when my father came home with a awesome surprise for me back in the day: Silent Hunter II.
I guess my question to the subsim community is this. What got you interested in WWII history, and submarines in particular?

I had always been interested in Military History. World War II was a natural focus for me since my grandfather was a WWII vet. He never really talked too much about it and after hearing his stories secondhand from my mother and uncle, I understood why. (For the record, he was on a militarized C2) Despite my own Army background, I found subs fascinating. I vaguely remember playing Silent Service on the NES back in the early 90's. Yep, back in the day, Subsims made it to the Nintendo.:D:up: Fast forward about 15 years or so, I decided to go to college for Military History back in 2007. I am halfway to my Master's degree in Military History, now. I remember writing for my Bachelor's capstone, which was about subs of course, and my professor flat out told me he learned something in regards to America's submarine service during the war.:know: I picked up SH III and SH4 on a good sale from Direct2Drive back in 2010 and I have been crash diving since. To make my own experiences even wilder, I joined the Coast Guard Auxiliary last year and recently completed the Coastal Navigation course. Playing subsims hard core helped with this dramatically:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up: Dead Reckoning? No problem. Fuel Management? No problem.:yeah: Speed-Distance calcs? No problem.:D

in_vino_vomitus

07-03-13, 07:38 AM

Well, I actually never heard a peep about it until I joined Subsim. We teach the Battle of Britain more than the Sub War.

It's not in our school history books and it's just not a real big part of the war according to the teachers. I wish they'd change that. Not many people realize the significance of the Submarine War in the Pacific.

Now that really does surprise me..........

Boeing727fan

07-03-13, 10:56 AM

I grew up in Erie, PA which is a port city on Lake Erie. I have always been interested in shipping and history, but what turned my interest toward submarines, was watching "Down Periscope" when I was 11 years old.

GrafDodiko

07-03-13, 12:16 PM

To keep it short: I don't know exactly. I come from southern bavaria in germany so I'm pretty close to the alps. But I always was fascinated with ships and navigating on sea. I even considered studying nautical science in hamburg (but then went with material science).

The intriguing thing about submarines/u-boats for me ist, that they are a little bit built like spaceships. Everything is built with redundancy for safty and its narrow and uncomfortable. This is what makes it interesting because it's a challange...

I could go on like this but you get the idea ;) :salute:

cdrsubron7

07-03-13, 01:15 PM

Like a few other people have mentioned I started out with watching the Silent Service TV show from the 50s. In high school it was anything about the Pacific War that I could find to read. :yep:

Red October1984

07-03-13, 02:42 PM

Now that really does surprise me..........

I know. There isn't a whole lot out there about it.

It's something that I believe should be included in the Pacific War chapters of the history books.

My last book didn't even hardly mention anything about the Battle of the Atlantic either! It just said "U-boats sank British Shipping in the Atlantic Ocean. The British used the Convoy System to protect it's ships" and that was the end of that. :dead:

TorpX

07-03-13, 09:23 PM

Well, I actually never heard a peep about it until I joined Subsim. We teach the Battle of Britain more than the Sub War.

Now that really does surprise me..........

It's true. Most of what I read about submarines before coming here, was about German U-boats torpedoing Allied ships in the Atlantic.

in_vino_vomitus

07-04-13, 04:01 AM

That's interesting. I still know virtually nothing about the history of British submarine operations in WWII, but I don't think that for us they were such a significant part of strategy. As a kid I had an inkling that US submarines had a role that was important, but I had no idea how important. I knew there were torpedo issues, but I had no idea of the scale of that problem either.

When I was at school, I read a book about US Submarines in the Pacific. I remember that USS Trigger was mentioned in it, and I remember a piece about refining shooting techniques to use less torpedoes and frustration with the system that discounted missed torpedoes as long as some of the spread hit. I also vividly remember the account of a motor burning out in the ice cream maker, because it was working during a battery charge - Apparently after this, a standing order was issued stating that no battery charging was to be done without advising the Officer in Charge of Ice Cream..... I'd bet heavily that somebody on here is going to know what that book was, and I'd be grateful to anyone who could remind me of the title - I'd like to read it again...

razark

07-04-13, 10:08 AM

I also vividly remember the account of a motor burning out in the ice cream maker, because it was working during a battery charge - Apparently after this, a standing order was issued stating that no battery charging was to be done without advising the Officer in Charge of Ice Cream..... I'd bet heavily that somebody on here is going to know what that book was, and I'd be grateful to anyone who could remind me of the title - I'd like to read it again...
I've read that book. I remember the bit about the ice cream.

Try Submarine! The Classic Account of Undersea Combat in World War II by Edward Beach. I seem to recall it being in there. The book jumps between Beach's personal story on Trigger and the stories of other boats.

Edit: Thank you, Amazon... Ice cream is covered in chapter seven.

in_vino_vomitus

07-04-13, 10:36 AM

Yep! - That's it - Thanks :)

raymond6751

07-04-13, 10:42 AM

Watching Silent Service on TV in the '50s.

Me too, Sailor Steve. In fact, I ordered a set of DVDs and am enjoying watching those old black and white shows again. Boy, has broadcast quality come a long way?

torpedobait

07-05-13, 03:31 PM

Me too, Sailor Steve. In fact, I ordered a set of DVDs and am enjoying watching those old black and white shows again. Boy, has broadcast quality come a long way?

That was my intro too. I had the books WWII in Pictures (a 3 volume set) and the one picture that really stood out to me was one of a sinking Japanese destroyer. The picture was taken through a periscope, and it just grabbed me. When I got to watch "The Silent Service" I was hooked forever. Once the games started coming I was in heaven. Hunt for Red October; 688i, you name it. I bought it. But what keeps me in it now is SHIV, modded with TMO2.5 and RSRD, with as many small mods as I can apply without crashing.

grislyatoms

07-09-13, 04:03 PM

Red October1984

07-09-13, 05:17 PM

My Grandad piloted a PBY Catalina in WWII. His recollections were what got me into naval sims. First sim I played was Gato at my cousin's house. Played Silent Service 1 and 2, AOD, Jane's 688, SHIII GWX (still playing) and now currently SHIV TMO.

A salute to his service! :salute: :salute:

The Catalinas are my favorite flying boat. The crews certainly have my respect.

grislyatoms

07-12-13, 09:45 AM

A salute to his service! :salute: :salute:

The Catalinas are my favorite flying boat. The crews certainly have my respect.

Much appreciated! I still have his cover, wings, and bars.:up:

DangerDeadpan

07-20-13, 08:28 AM

Broadly speaking, I first became interested in military history when I heard a lecture at my university from a guest speaker who visited us from the U.S. Naval Academy. The topic was on esprit de corps. In terms of submarine warfare, getting into simulation games (SH4 obviously), sparked an interest in the Pacific War. I'm also interested in the IJN.

clayton

07-23-13, 11:57 AM

Reading Silent Victory as a child...

c13Garrison

07-23-13, 01:01 PM

Before the post goes stale, I'll chime in for my two bits. My first draw to submarines was reading a large coffee-table book called WWII Warships that I still wish I had. Nice book, pictures, color line drawings, basic history. I was reading about the 'R' class (Revenge, Resolution, Royal Oak, etc.) when I came upon the tale of U-47 sinking Royal Oak in Scapa Flow. That hooked me.

I spent a lot of time looking for a WWII Atlantic subsim, but when I found one and finally got close to a KGV class battleship the graphics were so appalling I stopped playing. I bought SH4Gold in the bargain bin at Target in 2006, and played it on and off until I discovered this site 2 weeks ago. Since then, many hobbies have had to wait in line for Me time...

Aramike

07-29-13, 11:56 PM

Being completely honest, while I was ten years old and at an uncle's house, I had to rush to the bathroom for an emergency dump (emergency blow?) and all that was around to read was a copy of Submarine! by Edward Beach on the back of the toilet. An hour later, well after my business was completed (I was on the surface), I was still sitting there, reading. :yep:

Eichhörnchen

08-20-14, 03:47 AM

:03: Submarine movies (especially "The Enemy Below"... what a cracking film still). I did visit a decommissioned sub in Baltimore harbour on a visit to the US in 1982, don't know what it was called or whether it's even still there.

Has anyone ever built that 1/72 scale u-boat by Revell? (Feels like a new thread coming on...)

Lexandro

08-20-14, 06:22 AM

Operation Petticoat.

No, seriously. Saw this back as a kid in with all the great WW2 movies, like Battle of the River Plate, Sink the Bismark!, Ice Cold in Alex etc. Always liked it for the simple comedy.

Red Devil

08-20-14, 07:38 AM

I have always been fascinated by the u boat and other mainly naval aspects of WW2. When the web came along I realised the research area just went universal. As a result, and the many contributions from surviving members of subs etc and families, I have amassed a massive collection of WW2 images and information.

The best is when I get an email and 'my father is in that image, I am so happy to find it' and such like.

My ww2 site is http://www.39-45war.com

Then I got into the heroic us sailors in the Pacific and got loads of info sent to me on that, so that topic grew and grew. British subs of course, but their role was mainly clandestine and those pages grew more slowly.

I have a great respect for submariners of both sides as it was a very brave thing to do under very exacting circumstances. 75% of U boat crews never got back to base and that's due in no small part to:

Http://www.mikekemble.com/walker/windex.html

a personal hero of mine. His tactics were distributed to every RH ship to be used against U Boats, and they worked.

Admiral Halsey

08-20-14, 10:17 AM

I was bored on YouTube one day and accidentally wrote Silent Hunter instead of Silent Hill. Decided to watch a couple of the videos and was instantly hooked.

hutch1612

08-20-14, 10:58 AM

Hi to everyone on here.
I suppose I am quite new to the forum although I am an old hand at submarine sims having played silent service on the commodore 64 and going onto the Amiga 500 & 1200 then PCs to play aces of the deep, silent hunter up to silent hunter 5. I think it was because I was brought up watching war films and reading books like the Cruel Sea and the fact my late father served in the Royal Navy during the last war. He never really spoke about his time in the war although on rare occasion he might mention something if a Naval war film was on. I did learn after his death that he had been on board the HMS Amethyst when it depth charged and sank U1276 after she had just torpedoed HMS Vervain off the coast of Ireland in 1945 I also learned that he was part of a boarding party that that went on U249 when it surrendered To Amethyst and Magpie at the end of the war. Its a real pity that I never got to say how proud I am of him for his effort during the war. I also have a great respect for the men of the U boat arm too for fighting for what they believed in. I guess I just like being sneaky and that's what U boats are good at. I am using LSH3 modded up at 98% realistic with the 2% is just narcissistic but then everyone loves to see their boats from the outside.... Happy Hunting Herr Kaleuns!!!

saipan

08-20-14, 11:21 AM

always been a ww2 buff. das boat really influenced me. i had to order the soundtrack on cassette. no internet back in 1984. still watch in very few months. tora tora tora also makes my skin get goose bumps.

Aktungbby

08-20-14, 12:48 PM

hutch1612!:Kaleun_Salute:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/HMS_Amethyst_WWII_IWM_A_30156.jpg/300px-HMS_Amethyst_WWII_IWM_A_30156.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HMS_Amethyst_WWII_IWM_A_30156.jpg)Hms Amethyst Of course you have omitted the most famous crew member of all: Simon the cat ; the only feline ever to be awarded the Dickon Medal for animal gallantry a little later in her career off China.(1949) And when the King says "Splice the Mainbrace...!!:Kaleun_Cheers: " There was a particularly large, bold and vicious rat that, together with his band of followers, was causing havoc with the supplies; the crew had named him 'Mao Tse-tung'. Many attempts were made to trap him, as it was felt that Simon, in his weakened state, would not be able to cope with him: but he had evaded the traps. However, one day the animals came face to face: Simon sprang first and killed the rat outright. The delighted crew hailed him as a hero, and he was promoted to Able Seacat Simon — the feline equivalent of Able Seaman.
The days dragged on, more than two months after the original incident, with fierce heat and humidity, no relief in sight, and dwindling supplies of everything, including fuel. At times the boilers had to be shut down to conserve fuel, so there was no ventilation and no refrigeration. Even Simon started to wilt, although he continued with his duties and his rounds, helping, with the ship's terrier dog Peggy, to keep up the crew's flagging spirits. Then there was a typhoon; Simon was kept shut up to avoid possibly losing him, and slept through it all in the captain's cabin. Amethyst survived again — but rations and fuel were becoming desperately scarce. Kerans decided he had to make a dash for it while it was still possible.

So, on the night of 30 July 1949, Amethyst left under cover of darkness, and after a further series of adventures and more damage from Communist guns on shore, made it to the open sea, to be met by HMS Concord. The ordeal was over, after 101 days. King George VI sent his congratulations and ordered that the mainbrace be spliced.:salute: On 1 August a special presentation was made on deck, representing what the whole crew had been through. While both officers and men stood at attention, Simon was held by a boy seaman while a citation was read out by P/O George Griffiths, and Able Seacat Simon was awarded the Amethyst campaign ribbon. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_(cat)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4a/Able_Seacat_Simon_%28fair_use%29.jpg/220px-Able_Seacat_Simon_%28fair_use%29.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Able_Seacat_Simon_(fair_use).jpg)Simon the cat wearing the Dickon medal for animal gallantry; the only cat so honored!

Captain Diver

08-20-14, 04:01 PM

I became a bubble head simmer when Silent Hunter first came out. The rest is history. :Kaleun_Periskop:

Red Devil

08-21-14, 02:02 AM

I would also add to my reasons, the admiration of the fighting services in WW2, they were a different breed, respect to all in the European theatre, and to the Americans in the Pacific. I do not include the Japanese soldiers as in this, they were extremely brutal and cruel.

scott_c2911

08-21-14, 05:02 AM

Watching shows like stingray and voyage to the bottom of the sea etc. Also films like the enemy below and other war films while growing up. Hornblower series when i was older too.

Jimbuna

08-21-14, 06:54 AM

merc4ulfate

09-07-14, 03:41 PM

My interest is simple ... the hunt.

The submarine is the sniper of the seas. It's motivation is not to move swiftly nor brandish its power but to quietly and with stealth subdue it's target into a false sense of safety and strike in silence delivering it's target lethality and a swift and cleansing rest in a watery grave.

The hunt is the goal ... the kill is not.

Be swift and merciful in your killing. Your enemy is your brother and his suffering blackens your heart. There are times where killing is a necessity but the joy of killing is never fruitful.

:arrgh!::salute:

Sledgehammer427

09-07-14, 04:31 PM

mikica1974

09-07-14, 04:53 PM

I have been playing for years 1-5 silent hunter I find the men who served on submarines as the günter prien're right heroes have been in the naval warfare and were every day exposed to death and who are my great heroes who are very brave in the naval war against the enemy in order to fight this because I inspire to the u-boot and their teams and have read many books about the u-boat war

Red Devil

09-07-14, 05:08 PM

Long story short I bought a 4 game pack from a store at the age of 5 to play Fighting Steel, the surface combat simulator. In that pack was Silent Hunter Commanders edition and I started gaining interest, especially after the release of U-571. After a long hiatus because of school and entering young adulthood I returned to SH3 in '07 and made an account here.
It's all been up, down, and around including through the hill ever since :D

Are you refering to the film U571? A complete work of fiction bearing no resemblance to actuality. It got slagged in the UK and hardly got a viewing in cinemas. Typical Hollywood trash. :/\\!!

chebonaparte

09-07-14, 06:35 PM

ww2 was side hobby as kid opening up huge encyclopedias of ww2 planes ships tanks etc.

my father loved Das Boot uboat movie! :))

then my older brother made models of uboat and i later made model planes cars etc

sh2 got me hooked on SH series - still the most satisfying fun version imho

Sledgehammer427

09-07-14, 08:16 PM

Are you refering to the film U571? A complete work of fiction bearing no resemblance to actuality. It got slagged in the UK and hardly got a viewing in cinemas. Typical Hollywood trash. :/\\!!

Aye, thats the movie. It was very appealing in the theater although I was read up enough on the real history to know it was a complete farce.

Mush Martin

09-07-14, 08:34 PM

BBC "The War Years" as a child
and
Silent Service for 8 bit Nintendo
as a young adult
:up:

ReallyDedPoet

09-07-14, 09:22 PM

Living by the water for one ( near the Atlantic Ocean ) and Fast
Attack :yep:

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Armistead

09-07-14, 10:49 PM

I loved subs from that first arcade game where ships passed before you like ducks and you had to time your shots.

Seems my first sub game was by Microprose.

Red Devil

09-08-14, 03:39 AM

Das Boot is probably the most authentic u boat film ever made, even down to the contempt the crew held for the 'political officer'. I have it still on VHS and on DVD.

Jimbuna

09-08-14, 05:35 AM

neilbyrne

09-08-14, 04:58 PM

Like most war babies of the forties, I watched a lot of WWII movies and TV growing up, Victory at Sea, Silent Service, etc. Read a lot also and have a considerable naval library.

What I really wanted tho was a great WWII surface battles game, but none has materialized.

I have my own surface game for miniatures which is quite extensive. After I retired from the USN, I had a consulting business for the following ten years. Three times I convinced one of my clients to send me to the Electronics Entertainment Expo (E3) the gaming industry's primo convention in LA. It's a gas, but the E-ticket runs $600+, mostly I found out to keep the curious kids out. In any case, I made several aquaintances in the industry there and pitched my game at them for computerization. Folks at E3 are unfailingly polite and forthcoming unlike most of the Defense Dept. conferences I've attended. Finally, one friend, a producer for Microsoft X-Box put his hand on my shoulder and said, "Neil, forget it. Naval games don't make enough money and the industry thinks they are more boring than C-Span."

So SH is the closest I can get and my model ships still come out of the display case and duke it out on the living room floor.

TorpX

09-09-14, 01:01 AM

Finally, one friend, a producer for Microsoft X-Box put his hand on my shoulder and said, "Neil, forget it. Naval games don't make enough money and the industry thinks they are more boring than C-Span."

So, nobody invests in naval sims because they aren't successful, and, they aren't successful because nobody invests in them?

:nope:

neilbyrne

09-09-14, 01:37 AM

So, nobody invests in naval sims because they aren't successful, and, they aren't successful because nobody invests in them?

No I don't think that's what he meant. The last two of these SH games just barely broke even if that. So it's not worth the investment to them to then not make a profit or take a loss.

One of the lessons I drew from my involvement with the gaming folks was that the industry resembles other forms of entertainment to the extent that as Fred Allen once remarked, "Imitation is the sincerest form of television." If sitcoms are hits make more sitcoms; it's why there are so many sequels in movies.

The production costs for a top flight game are now so enormous, they take as few chances as possible.

Sid Meier is the Steven Spielberg of game designers. Last time I looked, something like 20% of the games in the hall of fame were his designs. I sat thru a speech of his once at E3 in which he lamented just this issue. Where's the innovation? Why can't we do something other than Call of Duty XXII and Assassin's Creed XI?

For almost all the formative years of the industry, they were hardware limited. The machines couldn't do what the designers envisioned, but Meier made the point in his speech that those days were over. The hardware was approaching movie quality graphics capability and now they were imagination limited. This hardware advance has actually worsened the imagination problem tho. Every year the bar gets ratcheted up to get even better graphics because the hardware can do it now which increases development costs which then increases risk avoidance strategies even more.

So if you are a development house like Creative Artists say and you are going in to pitch a new startup game genre or a revision of a dead line to a production company like Sega and that genre has a crappy sales record or none, you're in for heavy sledding. You're asking them to bet ~$25-50 million on your idea. At $50 or even $75 per box, that's a lot of boxes before they even make their nut back and profits start coming in. So you can see the issue with naval games. No one is going to invest the money required to mine the market based on uncertain interest and past poor performance.

We know that we'd accept less than current industry standards of graphics to get a decent game, but that's not sellable because the largest demographic slice that buys games is young males early teens to late twenties. Most of whom are enthralled with the coolness of graphic violence, have been unencumbered by the education system with historical curiosity and are uninterested in things that happen at the blinding speed of 10-15 knots.

merc4ulfate

09-09-14, 11:27 PM

Naval games don't make enough money and the industry thinks they are more boring than C-Span

You could not prove that with all the 688 fans there used to be on the internet playing multi-player submarine battles and co-ops against each other. I'd say Sonalyst disproved that myth.

These days there is a desire for realism.

Give them a multi-player online-realitime naval war game ... they will eat it up.

Lets see ... new russckie sub out now. Chinese and Iranians making diesel-electrics9which everyone knows is quieter than nukes), global instability, sea ice melting so now there is controversy over who owns what and a brand spanking new Russian naval base up there since the ice melted and opened up new water ways ... sounds like someone could make a mint with a new naval warfare strike package.

I can see the game working on a couple of fronts. Russian aggressors and Iranian militants along with Chinese paranoia and Japanese disputed territory.

Perhaps two sides:Aggressive militant
Russian obstinance

and

United States and the British new boat.

Nuke hunter killers against diesel-electrics.

ROE's can get a little dicey when your ordered not to fire unless fired upon even when you know that D/E boat is up to no good. You fire to soon and mission over game calls you out for being to aggressive. Hone your hunting skills waiting for the right moment to attack.

Might also switch back and forth from air ASW search (better hone your listening skills and arrays drop zones) and submarine command.

Maybe you have a D/E and there is a nice U.S. Carrier swimming up the Persian Gulf. Take it out ... but will the ASW take you out as well or maybe you have a Virginia Class nuke on your tail and you do not even know it. Open your tube doors and your dead in the water before you say ... allaggggrrrrhhhhhh as you drown from spraying sea water.

I think they would find a new generation of subsim fans with a game like that.

neilbyrne

09-10-14, 12:52 AM

You could not prove that with all the 688 fans there used to be on the internet playing multi-player submarine battles and co-ops against each other. I'd say Sonalyst disproved that myth.

You want this to be true and so do I. I'd love to see a good naval game, but you don't know what you're talking about.

Sonalyst didn't disprove the myth; they affirmed it. The partnership between Sonalyst and Janes that produced 688 and Dangerous Waters was terminated by Janes because, ta-dah, it wasn't profitable.

You may think you know a lot of folks who played 688, but do the math. A $25 million dollar game needs to sell 500,000 boxes before it's in the black. A $50 mil game, 1,000,000 boxes. SH4 sold 275,000 which was enough to barely break even in 2007-8 and wouldn't pass the so what test in today's markets.

Here are some stats for the big games of 2012-13.
Grand Theft Auto V - 34 million boxes
Call of Duty Black Ops II - 24.2 million
Battlefield 3 - 20 million
Call of Duty Ghosts-19 million
Diablo III-15 million

Starting to get the picture here? These are the kinds of return on investment numbers that the production companies are looking for. I couldn't even find sales stats on 688 or Dangerous Waters because they have never even placed in the top forty in any year since production. These were not popular games. 688I though was cited in the Guiness Book of World Records in 2000 as "the hardest video game in existence." Oh yeah, that's just a wonderful selling point for a production company marketing to Millennials with their short attention spans. Sega is going to absolutely juice in their jammies to give us a contract.

These days there is a desire for realism. I don't know who told you that, but it wasn't a video game designer. The ones I've talked to personally tell me, "the folks who place realism above all, we have a name for them, grognards. We don't make games to satisfy grogs; there aren't enough of them to worry about." Now I'm with you; I place realism very high, but the industry doesn't.

They think the AI's job is to give the player a good scare and let him win.

Lets see ... new russckie sub out now. Chinese and Iranians making diesel-electrics9which everyone knows is quieter than nukes), global instability, sea ice melting so now there is controversy over who owns what and a brand spanking new Russian naval base up there since the ice melted and opened up new water ways ... sounds like someone could make a mint with a new naval warfare strike package.
"How many boxes did the last game of this genre sell?"

"275,000 but that was in 2007-8."

"Thanks for coming in; we'll be in touch."

Sure.

Lexandro

09-10-14, 02:19 AM

Neil is spot on in this respect, naval games cant muster the same returns on investment as a modern AAA title can. However, indie developers can fill some of the gap, though with less sim and more simplistic systems.

One another point though; The vast majority of people who cry out for "realism" are not actually for realism in gaming. Its actually people who want a game to be a specific way they themselves expect, who then make the claim its in the interest of the game due to "realism". But the reality is complexity = / = realism, and what some people want is overly complex systems just to satisfy an OCD style mentality. (PS not directed at you Merc, just a general point)

Its like someone saying; "This game needs more water effects for better realism!". Well for realism sake I could come around to someone's home while playing and chuck buckets of water around them every time the on-screen character gets wet. But almost all players do not want that level of realism.

Some people demand things that are simply non-starters, because to translate them in to a game would simply be zero "fun" for the majority of the intended market. Someone may find it fun to click eleventy jagillion menus in a game, but for everyone else its simply far far to tedious and not "fun". While fun is a subjective thing, it can be quantified in some respects for a collective group. Which is why people support teams in sports, or go to concerts and the like.

Unfortunately for the Naval sim game, its simply not popular enough.

Oh and Neil check out "Victory at Sea" on steam, its based on the tabletop naval combat game.:up:

Haukka81

09-20-14, 12:14 PM

BBC "The War Years" as a child
and
Silent Service for 8 bit Nintendo
as a young adult
:up:

Silent Service here too in my nintendo 8bit , It was 1989, 90 or 91 i think when i first played it. :arrgh!:

neilbyrne

10-03-14, 03:41 PM

Lexandro, thanks for the rec on Victory at Sea. I finally got around to looking at it on Steam. It doesn't appear from the reviews to be what I'm looking for tho.

The largest departure from reality appears to be the gunnery accuracy which is the mistake the surface games that I've played have made. Naval gunfire is the furthest thing from a death ray you can imagine. Hit probabilities at what you would normally think to be mean hitting ranges run in the single digits percentage wise.

This was one of the issues with the gaming folks when we talked a realistic WWII surface game. "No one wants to fire a half dozen broadsides and come away with one hit or none." One of their solutions was to have three modes of play. An arcade like GUI where the player aims himself and is rewarded with hits based on his hand/eye coordination similar to the way SH handles gunfire. The second mode would be probabilistics driven via a data base populated with actual stats where available and then a third mode which would allow the player to determine by what percentage increase he wanted to corrupt the second mode to feature more hits than would be historical. Of course we never got that far.

cdpca

10-05-14, 01:45 PM

Victory at Sea and Silent Service TV series in the 50's...kinda shows my age!

Padi Muffdiver

10-05-14, 06:39 PM

Simulations in general have always interested me. I've worked with every flight sim since the old 2D Jet for PC and the various console games. Before PC's, I spent a lot of time at the arcade playing the "feed me coins" torpedo game; I can't remember if it was Torpedo Alley or Up Periscope or something else. It was pure fun along with the Flying Tiger shooting game.

Submarine warfare grew on me after reading one of my Dad's books -- Run Silent Run Deep, and most likely seeing the movie. My dad served in the WWII pacific campaign in an Avenger Torpedo dive bomber for the 8th Air Force division of the USMC so I've always had interest in the Pacific campaign. The capper probably was when my dad took me through the WWII sub exhibit in Chicago (U-505). Even as a youngster and having cutout hatches, it was very cramped in there.

TV and movies have had an impact also. As a scuba diver, I read Shadow Divers then followed the TV show and series.

merc4ulfate

10-05-14, 11:40 PM

:Kaleun_Sleep: yawn :Kaleun_Sleep:

You want this to be true and so do I. I'd love to see a good naval game, but you don't know what you're talking about.

Sonalyst didn't disprove the myth; they affirmed it. The partnership between Sonalyst and Janes that produced 688 and Dangerous Waters was terminated by Janes because, ta-dah, it wasn't profitable.

You may think you know a lot of folks who played 688, but do the math. A $25 million dollar game needs to sell 500,000 boxes before it's in the black. A $50 mil game, 1,000,000 boxes. SH4 sold 275,000 which was enough to barely break even in 2007-8 and wouldn't pass the so what test in today's markets.

Here are some stats for the big games of 2012-13.
Grand Theft Auto V - 34 million boxes
Call of Duty Black Ops II - 24.2 million
Battlefield 3 - 20 million
Call of Duty Ghosts-19 million
Diablo III-15 million

Starting to get the picture here? These are the kinds of return on investment numbers that the production companies are looking for. I couldn't even find sales stats on 688 or Dangerous Waters because they have never even placed in the top forty in any year since production. These were not popular games. 688I though was cited in the Guiness Book of World Records in 2000 as "the hardest video game in existence." Oh yeah, that's just a wonderful selling point for a production company marketing to Millennials with their short attention spans. Sega is going to absolutely juice in their jammies to give us a contract.

I don't know who told you that, but it wasn't a video game designer. The ones I've talked to personally tell me, "the folks who place realism above all, we have a name for them, grognards. We don't make games to satisfy grogs; there aren't enough of them to worry about." Now I'm with you; I place realism very high, but the industry doesn't.

They think the AI's job is to give the player a good scare and let him win.

"How many boxes did the last game of this genre sell?"

"275,000 but that was in 2007-8."

"Thanks for coming in; we'll be in touch."

Sure.

Red Devil

10-06-14, 05:12 AM

World At War, in entirety, in a boxed dvd set is now on sale. Every aspect of WW2, every week of WW2, I have it - brilliant.

I recall the original tv series - a must watch at that time. Every aspect, not just u boats, sea etc