Community-Developed Submarine Simulation: Wishlist

[Karl Heinrich]

In the light of SHO, there seems to have been a fair amount of talk recenlty about the future of sims and the possibility of a community-led creation of a new sim. A product by subsimmers for subsimmers as it were (would be nice to get a dedicated thread for this).

More on that in this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=201664&page=4

Obviously there are a lot of potential issues about the extent of development by the community itself and the issues of funding, obviously several have mentioned Kickstarter - but we can't just start a kickstarter and hope for the best without an idea of what's trying to be achieved.

Even amongst our relatively niche group, there's going to be a desire for different levels of realism (or even differing definitions of what's realistic).
But what is that you would want from such a sim, what are the must-have features and elements?

My general proposal for an ideal world would be that a platform is developed that creates a physical world that simulates standard features and phenomenon and then from that a WW2 and Cold War (and whatever else) version could be built upon that. Very much pie-in-the-sky thinking, I know. As such it would certainly be "moddable" - inherently so.

The List
Updated based on posts below - anything with more than one vote will be noted.

Generally divided into four categories: Your Sub, the Physical World, Crew, and AI/Other Vessels. Certain things will be marked of higher priority eventually, I think common sense can direct that... Obviosuly many things may be near impossible, but I suppose it's nice to have something to aim for.

Crew
- Realistic crew roles and responsibilities
- Watch switching (automatic / manual option)
- Optional fatigue (ideally based on length of patrol / time submerged? not because the crew are getting "a bit drowsy", the R/L watch system would and does minimise that).
- Real navigation with scalable assistance from "Navigation Officer" (what sort of assistance would you want?)
- Weapons Officer assistance scaleable - much as with current mods (any specific suggestions for this?)
- Evacuation Procedure

AI / Traffic
- Realistic/Historic traffic for shipping and warships- Surface skirmishes and battles between AI

The Sub
- Real subs and their upgrades (like most things, this is probably a given, but added for sake of completeness)
- Optional manual control of ballast pumps/individual tanks
- Optional manual control of hydroplanes / manual trim etc

Physical world
- Realistic hydrodynamics and oceanographic elements, including but not limited to tides, currents, thermal layers, internal waves etc. etc.
- Well-modelled coastlines
- Realistic / historic celestial data modelled for real navigation
- Intelligent Convoys and Task Forces (realistic/historic behaviour)
- Realistic / variable (and seasonal) water opacity

UI/Interface etc.
- Multiple monitor support
- Use of internal windows a la MSFS (Flight Sim) so different displays and gauges can be dragged and dropped to different monitors

Multiplayer functionality
- One sub multiplayer (something Ubi once talked about :()

[Sailor Steve]

I've been compiling a list of what I think the perfect subsim should have, and I've been doing it for years. It's far to big to post here.

[Karl Heinrich]

Haha, I had a fear that this would probably be the case for many...

[Saltback]

Hi Guy's!

Would be cool if we could evacuate the sub before it go's to the dark depth's.. Maybe a small life raft to climb into and some smoke to add rescue:arrgh!:

[Karl Heinrich]

Hi Guy's!

Would be cool if we could evacuate the sub before it go's to the dark depth's.. Maybe a small life raft to climb into and some smoke to add rescue:arrgh!:

I've started a list in the original post, and summarised this as evacuation procedure :)

[happymeal2]

It would have to model a realistic crew. Not just making the ship faster or slower, but things like crew movement, watch switching, maybe assistance from the navigation officer with plotting courses, and assistance from the weapons officer when planning attacks (option for this? some people like doing it themselves). Point being, skippers didnt do this all themselves, although im sure they would be allowed to if they wanted.

Realistic damage if possible. Health bars in video games annoy me more than anything else that has ever existed.

As a general reccomendation, go through some of the popular mods and pick some of the well-liked features out of there. Many of those mods do a very good job of filling in the gaps in the game with things that people want and make it better in doing so. Not to mention making it more fun.

Real subs and their upgrades would always be great, ubi did it with the games, where they had upgrades to the subs - this would definitely be something to be carried over.

Realistic traffic for shipping and warships, as well as possible battles if it could be pulled off, would be a massive bonus. Think Run Silent Run Deep from SH4.

Convoys and Task Forces need to be not stupid, ive attacked a few convoys that just continue going in straight lines even though im sitting there shelling a ship into pieces. There are mods that fix this, but ideally mods shouldnt have to.

Most importantly, make it moddable. This way, if assistance is required making the game or part of... Well, theres a massive amount of geniuses here that can pull off just about anything given the proper time. If it is easily moddable then if something doesnt go right it can be fixed easily as well.

Thats it for now, im sure ill come up with others. Glad to see theres a will in someone to get a project like this started, certainly not an easy task.

[Karl Heinrich]

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll add them up ASAP

As a general reccomendation, go through some of the popular mods and pick some of the well-liked features out of there. Many of those mods do a very good job of filling in the gaps in the game with things that people want and make it better in doing so. Not to mention making it more fun.

Absolutely, been playing modded for quite a long time, but the idea of this post was to just generally see what people has a whole wanted to see, and build a picture from that. There's so many mods that do so many things and there are things mods don't or can't do :) That, and that I'm pretty lazy....

And it certainly would have to be moddable in my book, that's a given. It would ideally be a pretty modular core system at first I iamgine, so it can be a platform for WW2 and Cold War (and whatever else, within reason). Sure that has it's downsides too.

There's a lot of inherent problems in community projects (design by committee and "too many chiefs" being the most obvious), but hopefully we can get some momentum going and try and get something productive happening. It could be a long time in the works, but of people we should be pretty patient ;)

[finchOU]

I've been compiling a list of what I think the perfect subsim should have, and I've been doing it for years. It's far to big to post here.

Reminds me of pre SH3/SH5 wish lists threads. Think most of us have an idea of the perfect subsim.

[Rokko]

The subsim I'd envision would be highly upgradeble basegame with a very limited focus, which it would actually do well, though.
Like a basegame that may only have a Typ VIIC boat playable from August 1940 to December 1941 but has a correct and detailed environment, that is realisitc marine traffic, historicaly correct naval operations during this limited time, radio messages, radio "stations" maybe.
Due to this limited actual content focus on correct damage model, ship traffic, physics, general environment, user interface, AI, etc.
More playable subs and different campaigns (equally detailed of course) could be delivered as DLCs or modules later on due to its modular nature. Or maybe little (optinal) detail improvements like maybe something called "Crew deteriation" that would make your crew grow beards and their clothing becoming less and less "orderly".
That way we could get an enjoyable sim that would in my opinion also be economically sustainable.

[happymeal2]

When i say assistance from navigation officer, im thinking pick out a location on a map and the officer plots the (fastest, least dangerous, or deep-watered?) course for you, of course with the option to plot said course on your own. Just a thought, as it again would seem to be something a captain would not do, but also something that people like doing themselves.

Not sure if weapons officers ran the numbers for manual TDC or if the captain of the boat did it himself, but thats what i had in mind- allow the option to have the WO do it. Similar to auto TDC except that manual adjustments could be made instead of just having to rely on it. Again, optional system there.

Thought of something else. Realistic damage control for the sub (and hopefully other ships as well). If theres a gaping hole in the sub, it wouldnt dive until said hole was filled.

[Karl Heinrich]

The subsim I'd envision would be highly upgradeble basegame with a very limited focus, which it would actually do well, though.
Like a basegame that may only have a Typ VIIC boat playable from August 1940 to December 1941 but has a correct and detailed environment, that is realisitc marine traffic, historicaly correct naval operations during this limited time, radio messages, radio "stations" maybe.
Due to this limited actual content focus on correct damage model, ship traffic, physics, general environment, user interface, AI, etc.
More playable subs and different campaigns (equally detailed of course) could be delivered as DLCs or modules later on due to its modular nature.

That's almost exactly what I had in mind and proposed in the first post :) Similarly this base game could then enable the development of a Cold War version etc.

[Saltback]

I've started a list in the original post, and summarised this as evacuation procedure :)

Hi Heirich Thanks:salute:
How long will it be before this release:06:

[happymeal2]

Out of curiosity, is this a project in the early stages of design and development or an idea not yet started/possibly bound for kickstarter? :D

[Red October1984]

Out of curiosity, is this a project in the early stages of design and development or an idea not yet started/possibly bound for kickstarter? :D

I don't know how many people around here are serious about this. At this point, i think this is all hypothetical. I doubt we will be the ones to make a "perfect" simulator.

There is that World War 1 game that is slowly being developed here at Subsim.

Imperial U-Flotilla (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=178)

Here's my two cents...

What I think you should do is get everyone together on the Imperial U-Flotilla and put all your features that you want into that game and work on it as a community. It looks like it's just Daemon who's working on it now and I'm sure he would appreciate some help. World War One is virtually untouched in the simulation world. You guys could do great things with this project.

We can sit and talk all day about the "Perfect Sub Simulator" but nobody is going to make it happen. I say put it all into Imperial U-Flotilla and make it an Indie game worth playing. :up:

[longam]

These things always end up vapor ware. I've seen a few simulators in the past go threw the same issues. It takes so long to develop that people drop out or the game engine and graphics are out of date before it is finished.

[Karl Heinrich]

I think those are very true comments, and it would be much better to contribute to an existing project rather than doing anything from scratch. This was simply meant to be one step ahead from the "well let's start a kickstarter" comments. Rather than the perfect sim, I thought it would be interesting to see if there was any kind of consensus on the level of realism expected, as that is what the most of the comments leveled at SHO have been about.

[Red October1984]

I think those are very true comments, and it would be much better to contribute to an existing project rather than doing anything from scratch.

That's why I say if you are serious you guys should pour all the effort into Imperial U-Flotilla. :up:

[scissors]

All video games depend on their looks .. And audiences are particular .At a glance i can see . Hardware is the limiting factor ,, which leaves a narrow time frame to develop a game , And still be competitive with what people are expecting Graphics wise ..
Also i was looking and SH sales have never been in the millions of copies ... only the thousands .. Of which i probably tally ten copies between 3 and 5 myself..

Its all in the graphics ,,If you can make the waves crash pretty .. That is all that really matters... isnt it ? I mean if that can be achieved the rest should be cake anyway.. And that is the perfect subsim , Or any kind of ocean sim time circa 100000bc to present to future time ever on ..
At that point the entire crew could be rendered in stunning detail. Right now no ones computer could get close to handling it .. When sh 5 launched the computer that could run it maxed without stutter was a brand new monster of a machine ,, It takes a respectable machine to run sh5 well now.. Water is just intensive to render ..

Anyways ..... thats my wishlist ,, A good open water sim i don't care if its sailboats or whatever but a better ocean .. better beaches .. Better action where water meets shore .. And i guess while im wishing ill wish for the 10 grand to build a server rack that can run it ..

[TorpX]

Its all in the graphics ,,If you can make the waves crash pretty .. That is all that really matters... isnt it ? ..
You gotta be kidding. :nope:

[Grind_and_Click]

They went the right direction with the online thing at least.

Suppose its the slow pace that's hard to get over.

Maybe it would need to be part of a larger game, like using the Outerra engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QohuBHovY0

Sim-combat-world! War Thunder is already trying to do something like this on a lower level.

But lets say to move forward in the sim sense, we develop a sub with more intricate management and perhaps some way to "warp gate" to another place or spawn beacon to speed things up a tiny bit.

I don't know, but "Online" and MMO (like the old and real sense of the term, not the World of Tanks "version") sound good, its just getting to the action.

[Julhelm]

The thing I've always hated with pretty much every sub sim not designed by Sid Meier is the ridiculous amount of time spent on just getting to the action because the time compression is inadequate for strategic transit.

[thefinnishguy]

Make the sub and crew interact realistically, make the sub's diesel engines vulnerable to malfunction when running on too high power, make the crew feel toxicated when diving too deep, and don't make a badly injured man just get back to his position and calmly continue rubbing his head and leaming forward to look at the gauges like in SH5.

[thefinnishguy]

Also, the sim would need some exciting new feature so the crowds of buyers wouldn't think the game is just an improved SH3. Like a random mission generator, an epic campaign with an actual story or the first-person walking featured in SH5 (which was the worst feature in a subsim ever because of bugginess). A good subsim needs clear GUIs or a control panel so you don't have to walk around the boat and talk to crew members to get the sub up and running. I've also had TheGeoff's tiny nuclear subsim project in mind, the crew and sub system management is very realistic, except that its Minecraft-ish graphics are yet not tweaked for the hardcore simmers who want super-duper graphics. :yep:

[himmelreiter]

Maybe we should sort out if the super ultra water and skin visualization is what makes a subsim exceptional or moderate. :hmmm:
My priority is clearly not the graphic part. This is only the ice on the cake.
Modularity, realistic crew and technology behavior, good small and big missions and different multiplayer options (one boat, several player roles?) are what awakes my interest into this idea/project. The more realistically I am marooned into that tin can, listening for depth charges, frightening, the better is the game. IMHO.
Many important details were already mentioned. Just one more: If it would be possible to cover with one basic vessel engine all the WW1, WW2 and cold war boat developments: I wouldn't only buy such a game and related updates, I also would participate in a crowd funding pot. :up:

[scissors]

You gotta be kidding. :nope:


I am not kidding, I might be oversimplifying , and a bit dramatic , But a year later reading back over it i still feel the same way .
. There are more graphics mods on subsim than any other kind of mod , as people search for that better wave , better scope, floor ,sky. whatever .
Its a shame that Ukuel is MIA from what i can gather and Lets hope everything is ok with him, His vision for more shipping , and more various boats on teh water , Is correct .
My first time zooming in on one of his sailboats anchored outside Kiel led to some loud eruptions of laughter and..
well alright i digress..

If you look at what the modders have done , It is to create the ultimate SH experience Inside of the box they have to work in .

People have tried to put in 47 crew members ,And they have made them do some pretty cool stuff , They need to do everything but poop , but the head does need a working door .

People have tried to make radio mods that play period radio , as per date .
These are the things it will need , stock , To sell . because most people wont mod , and its gotta sell .. I hope it sells like GTA5 ..

[TheDarkWraith]

If you look at what the modders have done , It is to create the ultimate SH experience Inside of the box they have to work in .

That's true for about 99.9% of them. I don't have restrictions, I can make whatever my imagination and skill wants :D

[scissors]

That's true for about 99.9% of them. I don't have restrictions, I can make whatever my imagination and skill wants :D

Superheroes and Minor Deities aside i meant lol .. :D

But just straight up, honestly from an armchair perspective .. Ive always wondered why Ubi doesnt put you on the payroll . Maybe it would save them some money on things like SHOL .

[TheDarkWraith]

.. Ive always wondered why Ubi doesnt put you on the payroll . Maybe it would save them some money on things like SHOL .

There are many others like me. I just so happened to take an interest in the Silent Hunter series of games.

To answer your question why Ubi doesn't hire us or put us on their payroll or consult with us for that matter all comes down to corporate politics. It all can be stated with one observation that applies to all in the upper echelons of a corporation: once you climb the ranks into those upper positions you are required to throw common sense and logic out the window. If it's irrational or not logical then that is the path to follow. Furthermore if an idea isn't conceived in the board room by one of the members of the board then the idea doesn't exist or is a bad idea. If said idea benefits the product the company represents or it's workers it's a bad idea. If on the other hand the idea benefits those in the board room or their immediate supervisors then it's a great idea and a motion will be filed to explore/produce the idea.

That is our corporate world today. Awe inspiring isn't it? :dead:

Once the world economy crashes I'll be having great fun with these MBAs and others like them. I'll do my part to ensure that they get left behind just like they are leaving us behind :up:

[scissors]

There are many others like me. I just so happened to take an interest in the Silent Hunter series of games.

To answer your question why Ubi doesn't hire us or put us on their payroll or consult with us for that matter all comes down to corporate politics. It all can be stated with one observation that applies to all in the upper echelons of a corporation: once you climb the ranks into those upper positions you are required to throw common sense and logic out the window. If it's irrational or not logical then that is the path to follow. Furthermore if an idea isn't conceived in the board room by one of the members of the board then the idea doesn't exist or is a bad idea. If said idea benefits the product the company represents or it's workers it's a bad idea. If on the other hand the idea benefits those in the board room or their immediate supervisors then it's a great idea and a motion will be filed to explore/produce the idea.

That is our corporate world today. Awe inspiring isn't it? :dead:

Once the world economy crashes I'll be having great fun with these MBAs and others like them. I'll do my part to ensure that they get left behind just like they are leaving us behind :up:

That Silentmichael tripped me out when i found out he was just 13 , My Goodness what a remarkable kid .( he the one trying to get all the crew on the boat But TDW knows that ,maybe random reader doesnt .
Its humbling is what it is ..and I know there are many great minds at work on this forum. Flagrant flattery is cheap and i can afford cheap ..

That being the case,
Dude, you rock :rock:and personally Thank you for
making my game rock . You understand how much it means to me i think ..
its something akin to actually speaking with a rockstar .to get a reply from you or gap or sober .. Im lonely lol ..( no but for real tone it down because we need to pitch SH6 to Ubi .
Awww hell .
Smart often =disillusioned..
This is high talk ( meaning inebriated not exalted )
So forgive me if i digress and ramble ..

But i think the main vein in the latter amble was basically ,
They dont give a %#@& what we think ..

I am a optimist however ,Meaning probably i dont see as far as others ,.. I believe people will ( and im wary of this as im writing it ) do what is at least in their own best interests ...wow ... That sounds so stupid now that ive read it aloud .
Aww hell your right aint ya ....


Well , I cannot personally feel too harshly .Whatever I feel for the system i love the game.It keeps on giving and i got full retail value for the purchase . Plus this place .
I r Shrewd consumer .. :sunny:

[TheDarkWraith]

That Silentmichael tripped me out when i found out he was just 13 , My Goodness what a remarkable kid .( he the one trying to get all the crew on the boat But TDW knows that ,maybe random reader doesnt .)

Never underestimate someone just because of their age and/or because they can't produce a piece of paper saying they attended college :03: My view on college is it's a total waste of money. I can run circles around most anyone and I taught myself everything I know from reading books and experimenting.

My dad though was the most influential person as to who I am now and what I know. He was a programmer and wrote custom software for financial institutions. He did not rely on anyone else to write his software, he did it alone. Many financial institutions still use his software to this day. At a very young age I was fascinated that your could type on a keyboard and make the computer do whatever you wanted it to do (within it's capabilities). This was back in the days of the Tandy color computer and the Tandy Model III/IV and Apple IIe and DOS. My dad saw this fascination in me and taught me what he knew. What he knew wasn't enough for me, I wanted to know more so I started reading books. I was reading books your typical 8yr old would not be interested in. The more I learned the more I wanted to learn more (still applies to this day). I quickly surpassed my dad's skills and there were many times he was asking me how to do something. What was the point of all this? The earlier a child starts learning how to program/writing programs/experimenting with programming the better he will become. Programming teaches problem solving, critical thinking, and most of all creativity. It's also a form of self-expression. A child's mind is nothing short of creative and a sponge for knowledge. If you can ignite that spark in a child's mind he/she will run with it and never look back :up:

Silentmichael doesn't surprise me at all. I'd bet you'd really be surprised if you knew how old most of the people who take up modding are :yep:

Some of the hackers that make me look like an amateur are WAY younger than I am :shifty:

[con20or]

The Pirates Ahoy:arrgh!: community are busy making a community 'Gold Standard' Pirate sim. For anyone interested in the Age of Sail this will be a must have - all we could ever dream of.

But that;s not all, they're releasing it free of charge!:woot:

http://www.piratesahoy.net/categories/hearts-of-oak-conquest-of-the-seas.131/

If one community can do it - then they all can.:up: