Newbie wants advice on convoy attack (also to waffle)

[mike2R]

tl;dr - This turned into an essay, sorry. Turns out I didn't want to just ask a question, but rather tell everyone about my experiences in the game to date. Anyone who does plough through it has my sincere thanks :)

I've had this game for ages, but I've always kind of bounced off it. This time I think I'm getting over the learning curve - I've actually hit something with a torpedo on manual targeting!

Ok I've fired a lot of torpedoes... and I still haven't sunk anything without finishing it off with my deck gun. But I'm getting there, and let me tell you, there isn't a sampan within 5000nm that feels safe when I'm at sea :)

Anyway, my situation is that I spotted a convoy. I've been steering well clear of things that actually shoot back, so I planned to let it go on its way but I radioed in a contact report in the hope that a more competent skipper might take it on. However the message I got back cheerfully told me to go right ahead and aim for the tankers...

I know I can just ignore missions, but I'm kind of trying to role play and while my guy is the cautious type, I don't think he'd ignore that kind of order. So I spent all day overhauling and getting ahead of them, sticking a little over 5nm away. I'm pretty sure I've not been spotted (on the basis that no destroyer has come to kill me) and, despite the fact the sneaky sods changed course on me I am now about 5nm ahead of them with night fallen.

This was actually really quite fun. I'm decidedly nervous about the engagement ahead, so I was running on low time compression, and frequently going up on deck to peer at the smokestacks on the horizon like a cat at a goldfish bowl. Tension has been building - the atmosphere of this game is amazing.

But time has run on, and I can't put it off any longer. I'm playing 1.4, with the 1.4 compatible versions of TMO and RSRDC (I'll upgrade if I end up properly getting into the game, feels very polished as it is though) Hard Realism apart form external camera is on, but I'm trying not to abuse that. The convoy seems a very small one with only 2 escorts, one ahead and one behind, with 6 or 8 merchant ships in 2 columns with about 600yds separation (I try not to abuse the external camera, but have not always succeeded). Speed (according to the contact report I sent) 11 knots. This is my first patrol (I restarted after installing RSRDC), I have a full load of torpedoes due to my preference for the deck gun with 4 front and 4 rear tubes. It is a flat calm with no cloud and visibility is excellent even though night has fallen.

So I want advice on my attack. I'm really quite nervous about it - I'll reload if I die, but I won't try the attack again, and the amount of real time I spent setting this up means I feel I've got a lot invested in this working... I probably won't get a chance to play until tomorrow evening, so any advice will be taken on board.

My tentative plan is to set up shop about 500 - 800yds from the nearest column's projected course and feed the TDC with range, AOB and speed manually for my pre-planned firing position with PK off. Dive below the layer (I can dive and surface stationary right?) with silent running, and let the lead escort get beyond me (how far?). Then surface to periscope depth, send the men to quarters, and id ships as they approach until I spot a tanker.

Once I find one, wait until it gets to the pre-planned position, then salvo all 4 torpedoes (fast, shallow, contact only) over a spread of either 4 or 8 degrees (so 1 or 2 degree intervals) as quickly as possible - I don't want to faff around and be economical, I want to very definitely kill at least one ship. Then (and this may be a BAD idea) surface and charge through the 2 columns at flank speed and get some hits in with my deck gun, and try and to set up a snap shot with my rear tubes once I'm beyond 300yds of the far side. Then crash dive, drop a decoy, engage silent running and creep away - with the hopeful intention of being able to surface reasonably quickly and get ahead of them again for another run at them before morning.

So comments? Refinements? Totally different plans because mine sucks? Sarcastic comments about this huge wall of text? All gratefully received :)

[Armistead]

TMO and RSRD for 1.4 still play very well and overall the realism is about the same as recent versions.

I wouldn't plow through shooting and tooting, all the ships will open up on you.

They're so many attack methods, one I perfer on clear nights is night surface from long distance, about 7000 yards, but my goal on my first attack is just to lure the escorts away. I'll line up a stern shot, that way I don't have to turn and shoot a few torps and take off, by the time the escorts see the torps, I'm long gone from that position, but they will go look near where the torps came from. Why the escorts are now searching, I'll be setting up another shot much closer on the exposed flank, submerged if water is deep, surfaced {decks awash} if shallow, attack and haul arse again. If you get ships slowed down or dead in the water, you can finish them later with your deckgun.


Wait until you run into the large convoys or TF, 20-50 ships.

Do searches on "attack tactics" and "evasion", using right tactics you shouldn't worry about a few escorts, most are easy to evade.

[Soviet Creeper]

If theres only two escorts, you should be able to go to periscope depth, and just shoot at the middle ships from ~1600 yards and then get out of dodge (That means dive as deep as your boat can, go to silent running and stay under 3 knots speed)


This works for me. Atleast during the earlier parts of the war.

[boonie]

erm personally i think 500yard is abit too close to setup shop, usually i try to stay at least 1000m away from the path of the escorts. If u are too close they can detect you even if u are stationary with silent running and battlestation on.

for escorts they have a front cone of 180 degree-ish area where they are pretty deadly on detection, radius of this cone range from 500 to 1km. once you avoid that its probably all clear.

[mike2R]

Thanks for the replies!

The reason for wanting to be close is that my shooting is abysmal :) Hopefully if I set it all up in advance I can improve on that since it will avoid my appalling range estimates, but I tend to panic when the time comes to take a shot...

I'll take the advice that 500yds is too close though, but the idea of me hitting anything at 1600 seems fanciful based on previous experience.

I thought the surface dash was probably risky, I'll shelve that idea. And I like the idea of incorporating a long shot at the lead destroyer as a distraction, although I may decide to keep things simple - just because I know if I try to do to much I'll just end up confusing myself.

[Pisces]

Don't worry. By shelving that idea you've shown that you are not fit enough to deserve the Darwin Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards). You'll stay and live to tell about it. :up:

[Armistead]

Main thing is to plan your attack as much in your favor as possible. Calm waters are very dangerous. The other issue is how the game is coded, sonar is always on in the sonars cone area, you only hear it when you're caught... They're many factors how sonar catches you, mainly your depth and angle, never leave your broadside open to an escort. I come in and keep helming my nose at the nearest escort.

Larger convoys are really easier to attack, even though they have more escorts. You can come in at narrow angles deep, let the escorts pass and come up in the middle of the group and have at it.

With TMO, calm waters, often if you get close enough to attack, you're gonna get caught, the goal is to get off your attack before the escorts
attack you, the game becomes one of evading the counter attack. Most go deep and silent, then when a escort makes a run, hit flank with a mild turn, the charges will almost always fall behind you, then back to slow speeds, rinse and repeat...It's dang near suicide to stay at slow speeds when they drop charges, with depth and speed you can outrun them.
Much depends on the escorts crew rating status how well they attack.

In time, you'll want to learn how to do a night surface attack, moreso for later war with RSRD, because the best shipping lanes are often in shallow water. Most of the best skippers I know use the night surface attack and dash method, you do it properly you'll leave escorts searching for you why your long gone setting up another attack. You can take out entire convoys and never worry about getting depth charged. I bet 80% of my attacks are night surface, never have to worry about evading escorts. Doe's get a lil tricky once they have radar, but you can use that against them too...

Don't be afraid to shoot spreads to insure hits.

[magic452]

Welcome to the boat mate.:salute:

Sounds like you've got a pretty good set up going for you so I would suggest that you play the save several times and try using several different approaches and get some shooting practice. Consider it training missions.
You gotta learn sometime and this looks like a good time to do it. Once you get the hang of it 1600 yards is close range, 3000+ is long range.

Enjoyed your post so don't be shy. I like to hear how new people are progressing.

Magic

[mike2R]

Some very good info there, thanks! I think I'll definitely go for an approach that minimises my exposure - a clear night with a convoy small enough that the convoy escorts are both within a few miles of any possible attack point does sound fairly risky when you put it like that... Thankfully I am in deep water, so I'll shoot a salvo and then concentrate on evading, without trying anything fancy.

I should probably keep the save and use it for practice afterwards, but I tend to like playing games like this without reloading where possible. I like the tension that comes from knowing that I have to do it right or suffer the consequences.

Its odd, I think I've gone a bit over the top with the difficulty settings and mods I've chosen for how experienced I am at the game, but it actually just makes it more fun. I'm pretty much scared of everything :) and it gives a great vibe to the game, and if I can actually pull off the attack this evening victory will be sweet.

[boonie]

Some very good info there, thanks! I think I'll definitely go for an approach that minimises my exposure - a clear night with a convoy small enough that the convoy escorts are both within a few miles of any possible attack point does sound fairly risky when you put it like that... Thankfully I am in deep water, so I'll shoot a salvo and then concentrate on evading, without trying anything fancy.

I should probably keep the save and use it for practice afterwards, but I tend to like playing games like this without reloading where possible. I like the tension that comes from knowing that I have to do it right or suffer the consequences.

Its odd, I think I've gone a bit over the top with the difficulty settings and mods I've chosen for how experienced I am at the game, but it actually just makes it more fun. I'm pretty much scared of everything :) and it gives a great vibe to the game, and if I can actually pull off the attack this evening victory will be sweet.

:) yeah i know what you mean there hehe, i used to get huge adrenaline rush waiting for the convoy to get into position. and the change of pace in the music makes me want to have a heart attack.

for starting right off the bat with TMO i think reloading to practice TDC is pretty much necessary. because first off the training mission is too easy, lone heavy cruiser doing straight line at such close range like that is just too far fetch from what u get while patrolling. And you probably would find it very hard to locate another opportunity to shoot after missing the first shoot out. insisting on not loading at first would probably cause burn out from fumbling around looking for action.

[mike2R]

Training mission you say?

That probably would have been a good idea wouldn't it? :)

To be fair, I probably did do it ages ago when I first tried the game, but this time I just jumped right in...

[Armistead]

Many say start with stock, I'm in the camp that you start with a mega mod, stock is too bugged and unrealistic, plus you can learn bad behavior and tactics and have to retrain yourself when you load a mega mod.

With mods you can get a fairly realistic game, try cutting that cam off and being stuck in the sub not being able to see whats going on up top, that gets rather intense when you have 6 mean escorts attacking you. However, the cam is a good training tool.

They're many other good mods you'll eventually want to add. It amazes me this game still evolves. You can play it for years and still enjoy it.

[HW3]

Don't raise your periscope all the way up. Use the page up/page down buttons to control how high you raise it, and just break the surface enough to see your targets. You stand a much better chance of not being seen that way.

If your torpedo wake is seen. the enemy ships will start turning away, and either speed up or slow down, so the closer you are, the less time they have to react. I usually shoot from 600-800yrds if possible.

:salute:

[mike2R]

Now what's the phrase?

I think it's "KABOOM baby!" :arrgh!:

Man that felt good. I ended up setting up close and measured everything off exactly on the map with ruler and protractor - which I don't feel too bad about, even if it is a magic auto-updating map that knows where everything is; in those conditions and the length of time I'd been following, I figure having that info is fairly reasonable.

So I made sure PK was off, fed the TBC a range of 750yds on bearing 0, AOB 44 degrees off the starboard bow and speed 11 knots. Then once I rose to periscope depth behind the lead destroyer, just sat there looking dead ahead until a ship sailed past me.

Four torpedoes over about a 6 degree spread, first one hit amidships and the second in the bow, not making huge explosions to be honest and I was worried when the third wasn't all that much more impressive. But the fourth took her in the stern and that was it and she went down.

Taking advice I dived immediately, and that was a good thing. Took me ages to escape the escorts - first time I've been forced below test depth - but I broke away eventually, although sadly to the rear of the convoy so no second shot.

Not exactly perfect though. Running through my mistakes I: 1) forgot to open the torpedo tube doors, 2) forgot to set the torps to fast and contact only (although I swear I did that when I first left port), 3) forgot to actually id the ship since I already had my firing solution.

But it didn't matter :) Four hits out of four, no duds (I guess this was very lucky), and my log reports that the ship was over 8000 tons of modern oil tanker.

I took another mission after this and got a patrol where I found a loan merchant and tried the same set up but corrected the mistakes - two duds and I had to finish it off with the deck gun *shrug*.

I got very lucky with more loan merchants that I could deck gun, and when I finally sailed into Java I had a little under 30,000 tons to my name and a nice man gave me the Medal of Honour - which if I'm remembering my American decorations correctly, is quite a complement...

So thank-you for all the advice and encouragement! I now have my first proper torpedo sinking under my belt, and morale on the Searaven is sky high (well actually it is still normal, what does it take to cheer up those guys?) I still have to manage a proper shot where I make my solution from the stadimeter, and I'm still having real problems with getting range correctly that way, but sod it. Today life is good :)

[Armistead]

Good job.

If you're still based out of Surabaya, the japs are getting ready to come in force to invade Java, basically Feb25-March 8.... Several large invasion groups coming, groups up to 60 ships. Hang out about 50nms NW of Sura around the 28th, also large group invades Merak, sits in the harbor
to the right of the map label March 2 or so, be careful, several TF in the area.

[mike2R]

From SEARAVEN
To ADMIRAL ARMISTEAD

LAST TRANSMISSION GARBLED X AM ABOUT TO DIVE FOR VERY IMPORTANT
REASON WHICH I WILL EXPLAIN LATER X SO NO RETRANSMISSION
POSSIBLE X UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY WE SHOULD INTERCEPT LARGE IJN
FORCE WITH LOTS OF GUNS AND DESTROYERS AND THINGS 50NM NORTH
EAST OF SURABAYA X WILL JOYFULLY COMPLY X BUT SHOULD WE HAPPEN
TO MISS THEN WILL SEEK TARGETS OF OPPORTUNITY X SADLY THESE MAY
BE ONLY UNARMED MERCHANTMEN BUT WE WILL DO OUR DUTY X

:)
Actually I think you were warning me off the area, but that isn't how I read it at first. And like I said, my guy is the cautious type :)

[boonie]

those few taskforce is patroling at some very very shallow water, not good for business.

[Armistead]

From SEARAVEN
To ADMIRAL ARMISTEAD

LAST TRANSMISSION GARBLED X AM ABOUT TO DIVE FOR VERY IMPORTANT
REASON WHICH I WILL EXPLAIN LATER X SO NO RETRANSMISSION
POSSIBLE X UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY WE SHOULD INTERCEPT LARGE IJN
FORCE WITH LOTS OF GUNS AND DESTROYERS AND THINGS 50NM NORTH
EAST OF SURABAYA X WILL JOYFULLY COMPLY X BUT SHOULD WE HAPPEN
TO MISS THEN WILL SEEK TARGETS OF OPPORTUNITY X SADLY THESE MAY
BE ONLY UNARMED MERCHANTMEN BUT WE WILL DO OUR DUTY X

:)
Actually I think you were warning me off the area, but that isn't how I read it at first. And like I said, my guy is the cautious type :)

XXXFLASHXXXX

FROM ADMIRAL ARMISTEAD

TO CAPT. NUMBNUTS.

XXX FOLLOW ORDERS XXX
XXX ATTACK IJN INVASION FORCE XXXX

XX REPORTS SHOW OVER 40 MERCHANTS CARRYING TROOPS AND SUPPLIES, ESCORTED BY NUMEROUS DD'S AND DE'S. TAKE OUT AS MANY TROOP SHIPS AS POSSIBLE. ATTACK UNDER FAVORABLE CONDITIONS, BUT ATTACK BEFORE TROOPS DISEMBARK. INTEL HAS
GROUP ARRIVING FEB 28, 30-50NMS NW OF SURABAYA. WE MUST HOLD SURABAYA AT ALL COST, ALL ARE EXPENDABLE OR AT LEAST UNTIL MY PLANE PICKS ME UP AND GETS ME TO DARWIN. XXXX

XXX OUR SURFACES FORCES ENGAGED AND WERE DEFEATED XXXX

XXX YOU'RE ALL THAT STANDS IN THE SEA TO DEFEND JAVA XXXX

XXX DO YOUR JOB SAILOR XXXX

[Hylander_1314]

Does Admiral Armistead want his red shirt, or his brown trousers?

[Armistead]

Does Admiral Armistead want his red shirt, or his brown trousers?

XXX FLASH XXX



TO: CAPT. HYLANDER -USS BRIM-

FROM ADMIRAL ARMISTEAD

XXXX OPERATION PETER PAN FAILURE, TINKER BELL SHOT DOWN. PROCEED AT ONCE TO POINT ABX PER OUR PREVIOUS DISCUSSION, LOAD ALL KITTYS, MY FURNITURE AND GOLD. HAVE SENT LAST SUB OUT TO ATTACK THE IJN NAVY AS A DIVERSION WHY WE MAKE OUR ESCAPE.
XXXXX

XXXX DON'T LEAVE WITHOUT ME XXXXXX

[Soundman]

Try learning some advanced shooting techniques such as the 'Fast 90". I use this tecnique often and doing so will save you a lot of torpedos, because of the accuracy of the method. You can find it here (scroll down to the bottom of the page) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67

You can also find more usefull info here... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795

I highly recommend learning optional shooting methods. You can find plenty of info on this website by using a search. Have fun :up:

[Hylander_1314]

XXX FLASH XXX



TO: CAPT. HYLANDER -USS BRIM-

FROM ADMIRAL ARMISTEAD

XXXX OPERATION PETER PAN FAILURE, TINKER BELL SHOT DOWN. PROCEED AT ONCE TO POINT ABX PER OUR PREVIOUS DISCUSSION, LOAD ALL KITTYS, MY FURNITURE AND GOLD. HAVE SENT LAST SUB OUT TO ATTACK THE IJN NAVY AS A DIVERSION WHY WE MAKE OUR ESCAPE.
XXXXX

XXXX DON'T LEAVE WITHOUT ME XXXXXX

XXXX SHOULD MAKE RENDEVOUS AT POINT ABX WITH IN 4 HOURS. ALL PERSONAL PROPERTY IS A NO GO AS PER THE VERY HIGH RANKING GENERAL FROM THE "ROCK" AS WE HAVE ALL HIS PERSONAL PROPERTY ON BOARD. XXXX

XXXX WE COULD LOSE THE FISH IN THE FORWARD AND AFT TUBES AS A WAY TO TAKE ON THE YELLOW COIN, AND OTHER ASSORTED SMALL ITEMS. XXXX

[Armistead]

XXXX SHOULD MAKE RENDEVOUS AT POINT ABX WITH IN 4 HOURS. ALL PERSONAL PROPERTY IS A NO GO AS PER THE VERY HIGH RANKING GENERAL FROM THE "ROCK" AS WE HAVE ALL HIS PERSONAL PROPERTY ON BOARD. XXXX

XXXX WE COULD LOSE THE FISH IN THE FORWARD AND AFT TUBES AS A WAY TO TAKE ON THE YELLOW COIN, AND OTHER ASSORTED SMALL ITEMS. XXXX

XXX FLASH XXXX

XXXX LOSE ALL THE FISH, MAKE ROOM FOR GOLD AND KITTYS. XXXX

XXXX PRECIOUS CARGO. 4 TOTAL , SIZE 5FT, 9INCHES, 120PDS, ABOUT 32 INCHES AT WIDEST POINT, SHOULD FIT IN TORP. TUBES. XXX

[Armistead]

XXX FLASH XXXXX

TO: USS SEARAVEN

CAPT. MIKE.

XXXX PREVIOUS INTEL FALSE, IJN HAVE RETREATED XXXX

XXXX NEW ORDERS XXXXX

XXX OPERATION GILDA XXXX

XXXX RITA HAYWORTH WHY TRYING TO ESCAPE IN YACHT OUT OF FUEL, STRANDED... XXXXX

XXX PROCEED TO 110.10E X 6.10 S XXXXX FEB 27-29TH 1942 XXXX
XXX WAIT ON STATION UNTIL RITA ARRIVES XXXX
XXX NO IJN ASSETS KNOWN TO BE IN AREA XXXX

XXX IF NOT LOCATED, SHE WILL RELOCATE TO 106.10E X 6.0 S, HARBOR EAST OF MERAK, JUST
WAIT IN HARBOR ON SURFACE ALL DAY AND NIGHT MARCH 2ND, 1942....RITA WILL ARRIVE SHORTLY.XXXX

XXX RITA PROMISES TO MAKE LOVE ALL NIGHT TO CAPT. THAT SAVES HER XXXXX


XXXX GOOD LUCK XXXXX
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/3prx1nyl5pf81xy3-1.jpg

[mike2R]

USS SEARAVEN NE OF SURIBAYA

Cargo Ships Sunk: 5
Torpedoes Left: 11
Deck Gun: Empty
Total Tonnage: 14000

CRUISED NE AS INSTRUCTED X MANY MERCHANTMEN SUNK X SADLY DID
NOT FIND HEAVILY ARMED IJN FLEET X ALL HANDS MOST DISAPPOINTED X
SORRY TO HEAR YOU LOST JAVA X SURE IT WASNT YOUR FAULT X
HOPE COURT MARTIAL ISNT LOOKING FOR A SCAPEGOAT X DONT GET ANY
IDEAS X I STILL HAVE THE PHOTOGRAPHS X GIVE MY BEST TO RITA X
NUMBNUTS INDEED X

[mike2R]

Try learning some advanced shooting techniques such as the 'Fast 90". I use this tecnique often and doing so will save you a lot of torpedos, because of the accuracy of the method. You can find it here (scroll down to the bottom of the page) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67

You can also find more usefull info here... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795

I highly recommend learning optional shooting methods. You can find plenty of info on this website by using a search. Have fun :up:

Thanks for the links! I think I came fairly close to reinventing the 'Fast 90' in my quest to avoid the stadimeter :)

I actually sunk something with a torpedo shot done through the periscope this cruise! Admittedly it was a cargo ship running directly away from me (ran out of deck gun ammunition at an inconvenient moment) and all I had to get right was 180 degree AOB, but still... :)

[Armistead]

USS SEARAVEN NE OF SURIBAYA

Cargo Ships Sunk: 5
Torpedoes Left: 11
Deck Gun: Empty
Total Tonnage: 14000

CRUISED NE AS INSTRUCTED X MANY MERCHANTMEN SUNK X SADLY DID
NOT FIND HEAVILY ARMED IJN FLEET X ALL HANDS MOST DISAPPOINTED X
SORRY TO HEAR YOU LOST JAVA X SURE IT WASNT YOUR FAULT X
HOPE COURT MARTIAL ISNT LOOKING FOR A SCAPEGOAT X DONT GET ANY
IDEAS X I STILL HAVE THE PHOTOGRAPHS X GIVE MY BEST TO RITA X
NUMBNUTS INDEED X

XXXXX FLASH XXXXXXX

XXXX I SAID NW....NW...NOT NE....XXXX

XXXX RITA LOST XXXXX
XXXX JAVA LOST XXXXX
XXX RETURN TO BASE XXXXX

[Sailor Steve]

From SEARAVEN
To ADMIRAL ARMISTEAD

LAST TRANSMISSION GARBLED X AM ABOUT TO DIVE FOR VERY IMPORTANT
REASON...
I was a radioman in real life. If the reason for diving was that important you wouldn't take the time to send any message at all. That complete message would take several minutes to transmit, and you would be dead. :O:

[mike2R]

Well I said I would explain it to the Admiral later :) Unfortunately I've just been transferred to Pearl Harbour... I'll catch up with him after the war is over or something.

In other news I've started to hit things semi-regularly with my torpedoes, and have found out why everyone complains about duds and deep runners so much :( 4 torps fired, 1 missed the stern by about half a yard, 1 dud, and two went under the ship...

[infoleather]

The stock is too eavesdropping and impractical, plus you can learn bad behavior and tactics, and re-train yourself, when you load a large scale the MOD.

[Rockin Robbins]

Need some maple syrup with that waffle?:woot:

Sometimes survival is enough. Great job, sir.