Sub classes?

[Frank the tank]

I'm currently on my second SH4 patrol in 1941. I was just wondering what preferences you guys have for the different types of subs.

Currently I have a salmon class. Is there anything better? And if so what are the advantages of other classes.

Cheers

[Torplexed]

I'm currently on my second SH4 patrol in 1941. I was just wondering what preferences you guys have for the different types of subs.

Currently I have a salmon class. Is there anything better? And if so what are the advantages of other classes.

Cheers

Well, next in line you have your Sargos, Tambors, Gatos and Balaos

The Sargos were completed in 1939 and were quite modern boats. They were essentially slightly modified Salmons. They were required to be able to maintain 17 knots on three of their four diesel engines and to have 25 percent reserve buoyancy. They used a new Navy battery design in place of the commercial batteries previously used. Both fore and aft torpedo tubes could lay mines (with stowage for a total of 40 mines). Extra fuel could be carried in some of the ballast tanks at the cost of reducing dive capability. The class introduced the "down express" ballast tank, which was fitted under the forward torpedo room to reduce the dive time; this was flooded at the start of the dive, to pull the ship down, then blown as soon as the ship was underwater. However, even with this assistance, it took 39 seconds for a boat to reach periscope depth.

The Tambors were completed in 1940-1941 and were essentially improved Sargos. They established the configuration (six forward torpedo tubes, four rear torpedo tubes, and a total of 24 torpedoes) that characterized all American submarines built during the war. They were the first American submarines designed in light of early experience with the torpedo data computer, and this was placed in the conning tower where the commander could quickly refer to it while at the periscope. The sonar operators were also moved into the conning tower where they could feed data directly to the TDC operator and the commander.

The Gatos were just beginning to join the fleet at the start of the war. The last peacetime design, they were somewhat larger than their predecessors, improving stability and subdivision and allowing more powerful machinery. Their large engine rooms were subdivided by a pressure-proof bulkhead. They were a good design that was suitable for mass production, and they became the definitive U.S. submarine model of the Pacific War. They set new standards of habitability and endurance, had sophisticated fire control computers (by the standards of the day), and were heavily armed.

Their chief faults were that they were not very maneuverable (having a turning radius of 150 yards or 137m submerged) and were slow to dive. The original conning towers were also quite high. Once war broke out, they were cut down considerably to reduce the silhouette of the boats. But the chief limitation of American submarines generally was not the submarines themselves, but the atrocious torpedoes they carried, which did not begin to approach acceptable performance until late 1943.

The Balaos were completed in 1943-45 and were essentially Gatos with strengthened hulls. This allowed them to dive deeper, which was tactically important when evading Japanese depth charge attacks.

[HW3]

This allowed them to dive deeper, which was tactically important when evading Japanese depth charge attacks.

This was necessary because of this.

At first, Japanese anti-submarine defenses proved less than effective against U.S. submarines. Japanese sub detection gear was not as advanced as that of some other nations. The primary Japanese anti-submarine weapon for most of WWII was the depth charge, and Japanese depth charge attacks by its surface forces initially proved fairly unsuccessful against U.S. fleet submarines. Unless caught in shallow water, a U.S. submarine commander could normally dive to a deeper depth in order to escape destruction, sometimes using temperature gradient barriers to escape pursuit. Additionally, during the first part of the war, the Japanese tended to set their depth charges too shallow, unaware that U.S. submarines possessed the ability to dive beyond 150 feet.
Unfortunately, the deficiencies of Japanese depth-charge tactics were revealed in a June 1943 press conference held by U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_J._May), a member of the House Military Affairs Committee who had visited the Pacific theater and received many confidential intelligence and operational briefings. At the press conference, May revealed that American submarines had a high survivability because Japanese depth charges were fused to explode at too shallow a depth, typically 100 feet (because Japanese forces believed U.S. subs did not normally exceed this depth). Various press associations sent this story over their wires, and many newspapers, including one in Honolulu, thoughtlessly published it. Soon enemy depth charges were rearmed to explode at a more effective depth of 250 feet. Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_A._Lockwood), commander of the U.S. submarine fleet in the Pacific, later estimated that May's revelation cost the navy as many as ten submarines and 800 crewmen.

Why he was not charged with treason I do not know.:nope:

[CCIP]

There is also the Tench class (which I believe is only in modded versions of the game), which were the last wartime boats, essentially identical to Gato and Balao classes but with an even stronger hull.

Basically once you get up to the Tambor class, there are more similarities than differences. That was the class where the fleet boat design finally hit the sweet spot, and remained there with few alterations until the war's end (although there were, of course, upgrades to all classes of operating boats throughout the war). There aren't really advantages/disadvantages in the sense that all of the submarines in the game (except the S-boats) are basically evolutions of the same design, so each class is more or less a slightly bigger, tougher, better version of its predecessor.

[mobucks]

As they got bigger/tougher/better, they also got about a knot slower.

[Platapus]

Why he was not charged with treason I do not know.:nope:
That is a question I have been pondering for years.

[Frank the tank]

Thanks for the info guys

[WernherVonTrapp]

That is a question I have been pondering for years.He should've been tried for treason but, for what it's worth and it ain't worth much, I think it was all politics. If I remember correctly, I think his appointment to the House Military Affairs Committee (he may have even chaired the committee) was by direct appointment from Roosevelt and with an election year approaching, the prospects of a scandal in his administration was believed to be more detrimental to the war effort and upcoming election than the actual leak itself.
At least, that's my feeble memory's take on it.http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/5ca9bd64.gif

[TorpX]

Their chief faults were that they were not very maneuverable (having a turning radius of 150 yards or 137m submerged) and were slow to dive. The original conning towers were also quite high. Once war broke out, they were cut down considerably to reduce the silhouette of the boats. But the chief limitation of American submarines generally was not the submarines themselves, but the atrocious torpedoes they carried, which did not begin to approach acceptable performance until late 1943.


You have a lot of good info here. Would you happen to know how the S-class turn/perform? The reason I ask is that I noticed they turn very poorly in SH 4, but I recall them as having been much better in SHCE.

[Stealhead]

The Tench class did not have a stronger hull than the Balao class the main difference was that it had a better designed interior layout which made a it more efficient and allowed them to carry a few more torpedoes.

In TMO you do get the SV radar and the ST periscope radar with a Tench and it can go deeper than the Balao so with TMO there is some difference even though there was not a change between the two in reality hull strength wise.

[Soviet Creeper]

It appears no one has talked about my favorite boats, and thus I shall

The S18 and S42 are both very similar, the S42 has minor improvements and a bettter battery I think. These are very fragile, and cant dive very deep, but they are small. This allows them to operate a bit better in the shallows, and they are also great for harbor raiding. In RFB they also get to start with the 4in deck gun, which is of course way better than that tiny 3in. Dont expect to sink any large warship though, 4 Mark 10s wont do very much too anything. The only major problem for me is the lack of torpedos they carry, 12 max.

[Platapus]

, 4 Mark 10s wont do very much too anything.


Except that four Mk 10's have a much better chance of exploding when they should than the early Mk 14's

While the Torpex used in the Mk 14 is better suited for sinking ships than the TNT used in the Mk 10's, that Torpex won't be of much good if it is not exploded next to the ship.

I would rather hit with four Mk 10's than not hit with three out of four Mk 14's :yep:

[USS Drum]

One Sargo class has a interesting story behind it:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Squalus_%28SS-192%29

[Stealhead]

It appears no one has talked about my favorite boats, and thus I shall

The S18 and S42 are both very similar, the S42 has minor improvements and a bettter battery I think. These are very fragile, and cant dive very deep, but they are small. This allows them to operate a bit better in the shallows, and they are also great for harbor raiding. In RFB they also get to start with the 4in deck gun, which is of course way better than that tiny 3in. Dont expect to sink any large warship though, 4 Mark 10s wont do very much too anything. The only major problem for me is the lack of torpedos they carry, 12 max.


I wish they would have better modeled the S-boats myself the S-boats had a bit of variation depending on who had built them and when they where overhauled.Some had rear tubes and the the hull was are much more similar to the appearance of German U-boats where as the ones in SH4 are all of the original "Holland" design though he did not design them they still had his look.It would also have been nice to have the various yard boats have their distinct conning tower appearances because there was some variation between Electric Boat,Portsmouth,and Maintowoc boats.We are stuck with generic ones that is just me being nit picky.

So far as I recall even in stock the S-boats start with the 4 inch 50 caliber gun and do start with this gun in TMO you can swap out for a pop gun though I have no idea why anyone would want to do that.Also the S-boats where designed for coastal waters in which case their range was fairly effective.The Navy basically needed subs badly and the S-boats where available so they got used around the Solomon Islands because it was in the range of their operating abilities.The Asiatic fleet had them for the same reason.In WWII some S-boats actually prefered to use the deck gun to get kills which was a feasible tactic early in the war.

[Soviet Creeper]

Except that four Mk 10's have a much better chance of exploding when they should than the early Mk 14's

While the Torpex used in the Mk 14 is better suited for sinking ships than the TNT used in the Mk 10's, that Torpex won't be of much good if it is not exploded next to the ship.

I would rather hit with four Mk 10's than not hit with three out of four Mk 14's :yep:

very, very true, but I was talking about their effectiveness against Battleships and large carriers. Ive been unable to sink one, even when all 4 hit and explode. Perhaps bad luck. I do overall perfer the Mark 10, and am even willing to spend the renown to get them once I "upgrade" to a larger sub. 6 Mark 10s however, will more often than not put down whatever Im trying to sink. I only wish they had a tad longer range. I hate fireing at a distance convoy, only to have them run out of fuel 20 yards from the large modern tanker I was aiming at :nope:

[Torplexed]

I wish they would have better modeled the S-boats myself the S-boats had a bit of variation depending on who had built them and when they where overhauled.Some had rear tubes and the the hull was are much more similar to the appearance of German U-boats where as the ones in SH4 are all of the original "Holland" design though he did not design them they still had his look.It would also have been nice to have the various yard boats have their distinct conning tower appearances because there was some variation between Electric Boat,Portsmouth,and Maintowoc boats.We are stuck with generic ones that is just me being nit picky.


Yup. This is the major problem with defining the S-class. I remember being surprised to learn that the 51 S-class submarines were anything but a homogenous, identical group and were in fact a class in name only. The S-class was actually made up of no less than six distinct groups that were built by four different manufacturers. The Navy considered all 51 boats a single class because they were all designed to meet roughly the same set of performance and military specifications. These specifications were approximately 800-1000 tons submerged displacement, length approximately 250 ft., surface speed 18-20 knots, submerged speed 14 knots for 1 hour and 10 knots for 3 hr, surface range radius of 5000 nautical miles, and 4 bow torpedo tubes (two reloads each). The Navy's reason for splitting up the design and construction was they felt Electric Boat was getting too politically powerful and was too fond of installing it's own patented (and sometimes inferior) gadgets in the boats.

Although ultimately proven to be flawed in many areas, both the S-1 and the S-3 designs were deemed satisfactory enough to warrant series production. The S-1 had better underwater maneuverability, was a fairly fast diver, and her single hull construction eased exterior maintenance. The S-3 had better engines and a longer range. In the end, the Navy felt that both types were nearly evenly matched, but ironically Electric Boat ended up with the bulk of the construction, mostly due to the much larger construction capacity of their yards.

[Stealhead]

very, very true, but I was talking about their effectiveness against Battleships and large carriers. Ive been unable to sink one, even when all 4 hit and explode. Perhaps bad luck. I do overall perfer the Mark 10, and am even willing to spend the renown to get them once I "upgrade" to a larger sub. 6 Mark 10s however, will more often than not put down whatever Im trying to sink. I only wish they had a tad longer range. I hate fireing at a distance convoy, only to have them run out of fuel 20 yards from the large modern tanker I was aiming at :nope:

Attacking a large warship can be fun but you do so much more harm to the Japanese war effort by killing her supply lines of course in theory you should try to destroy any warship you find.If you follow a few simple rules when using Mk.14s you will not have near as much trouble with them though one could argue the accuracy of doing this because we know what to do from the start in the game to avoid the duds in real life they did not know until later in the war.I think the odds of sinking a BB with mk.10s is pretty low they can take alot of hits even from much more powerful mk.14s and not go down.

[Frank the tank]

This was necessary because of this.



Why he was not charged with treason I do not know.:nope:

I believe you would have to prove intent to get home on a treason prosecution. Seemed to me he was just thoughtlessly stupid. So far there's no law against being as dumb as dirt.

[Nisgeis]

Wasn't he prosecuted after the war for some sort of irregularity or profiteering and went to jail? Something to do with some arms company he way involved in.

[Torplexed]

Wasn't he prosecuted after the war for some sort of irregularity or profiteering and went to jail? Something to do with some arms company he way involved in.

Yes. Infamous Kentucky Congressman Andrew J. May was convicted by a Federal Jury and served nine months in prison. The arms company he took bribes from apparently produced quite a few defective mortar shells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_J._May

On-the-take politicians. They look creepy and oily no matter the historical era.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Andrew_J._May_cropped.jpg

[Platapus]

hate fireing at a distance convoy, only to have them run out of fuel 20 yards from the large modern tanker I was aiming at :nope:

How far away are you shootin? :o

[Stealhead]

20 yards beyond the maximum range of Mk10(though I bet they are cutting out a bit farther away than 20 yards) I am guessing my guess is that he is firing at them while in range but not realizing that the target is slowly sailing out of range.I used to have this problem way back when.If that is the case then his success rate could go up a bit if he gets new sub and starts using
Mk14s set to slow speed he is already accustomed to getting in to S-boat attack range with all that extra range of mk14s he should be good if the only error is firing from too far for MK10s to make it.