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Armistead
08-03-11, 10:19 AM
It seems when I read the book on the Barb, it mentioned there fear of getting picked up by surface radar land stations, but I can't confirm this or if any players used these in the war. This isn't the Barb's attack on the radar station, which I assume was air.

If so, I wondered if it was possible to take the surface radar on ships, adjust it and place it on land, so it would mimic land surface radar stations.

It's so easy to evade escorts and get into straits, harbors, etc., around Japan. Some land surface radar stations should home in on you and call in nearby escorts. Course, not sure how escorts would react to a seperate radar not in the group.

WernherVonTrapp
08-03-11, 11:41 AM
I've read a lot about Japanese radar capabilities but not so much about where these systems were actually deployed. I know they certainly had a somewhat capable surface search radar system, though they were about 2 years behind U.S. capabilities during the war. I know the vast majority of land based systems were of the air search type. This is not to say that they never employed surface search systems on land but ground clutter (trees, hills, mountains, buildings, etc.) would have made surface search systems less practical than air search systems.

Then again, I suppose it would make more sense to put them right near a harbor with a specific search range/arc where ground clutter would be less of a concern with the level expanses of water. Putting them there however, would be an inviting target for enemy air assault. Even on a mountain top near a harbor would stick out like a sore thumb. Hmmmm,:hmmm: now you have me wanting to go read my radar book again. Interesting concept though.

Armistead
08-03-11, 11:59 AM
Then again, I suppose it would make more sense to put them right near a harbor with a specific search range/arc where ground clutter would be less of a concern with the level expanses of water. Putting them there however, would be an inviting target for enemy air assault. Even on a mountain top near a harbor would stick out like a sore thumb. Hmmmm,:hmmm: now you have me wanting to go read my radar book again. Interesting concept though.


I'm not sure how we could've known in war where enemy air/land radar stations were then to any degree, although I do recall subs reporting radar stations. I assume APR-1 type radars picked them up, but I don't know how they determine land versus air, I assume angle of the beam would come into play. I don't think planes had any ability then to home in on land radar systems.

Seems the Brits installed some facing the English Channel. Still, I swear Barb was worried about land surface radar.

WernherVonTrapp
08-03-11, 01:41 PM
I'm not sure how we could've known in war where enemy air/land radar stations were then to any degree, although I do recall subs reporting radar stations. Ground radar installations were no small affair, literally. They were not small compact systems like those of present day. It wasn't practical to place them inside a tree cluttered area because of the interference that would be created by the very trees used to hide them.
It would've been more practical to park a radar equipped DD near the harbor entrance. Anyway, these land based systems would've most likely been easy to spot via aerial surveillance, much like the British and German systems were. Both had bombed (or raided) each others radar installations at one time or another. Near the end of the war, this would've been more costly for the Japanese who were already short on resources and supplies. I do have a few pics of some ingeniously placed air radar antenna by Japanese personnel but these appear to be mostly field modifications that varied from one unit to another. It was also done out of fear of being seen by aerial reconnaissance. I have one pic where the radar antenna was actually rigged up into a tree (air search radar), making it virtually undetectable by air.

It is my understanding that, unlike surface search radar, air search radar could be hidden (somewhat) among the trees as long as it's sphere of influence was aimed above the treetops.

http://images.wwiiarchives.net/images/photos/80-G-11293.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1286/758903976_89b287dec3.jpg

TorpX
08-03-11, 03:10 PM
If so, I wondered if it was possible to take the surface radar on ships, adjust it and place it on land, so it would mimic land surface radar stations.

It's so easy to evade escorts and get into straits, harbors, etc., around Japan. Some land surface radar stations should home in on you and call in nearby escorts. Course, not sure how escorts would react to a seperate radar not in the group.

You could always put a small radar-equipt escort close to land and have it move in a very small loop. This would provide the same effect, more or less. At least you could see if they can call in help or not.



Was anyone ever able to place magnetic-induction detectors in the game? I remember someone was discussing this on the forum a long time ago.

Armistead
08-03-11, 06:20 PM
You could always put a small radar-equipt escort close to land and have it move in a very small loop. This would provide the same effect, more or less. At least you could see if they can call in help or not.



Was anyone ever able to place magnetic-induction detectors in the game? I remember someone was discussing this on the forum a long time ago.


Actually I guess you could set the escort to docked, but I would be tempted to sink it, course surround it with subnets, haha. . I've placed several killer groups set to elite near ports., some get radar later war, but I've placed many percentage loops in the traffic so they change up and spawn differently. My guess is you have to have a ship platform to place it on, not land, so would be the only option.

Hell, just another one of my dumb idea's since I've been trying to learn, I'm sure many have thought about it long before and decided it was a dumb idea that wouldn't work...

If you're talking about MAD, fairly sure TMO2.2 has them late war, just not sure if RSRD would effect them, but don't think RSRd messes with any sensor files. Should be in TMO support Doc.

Torplexed
08-03-11, 08:08 PM
When you read about some of the byzantine struggles the Japanese had with radar it's a wonder they ever got any sets into operation.

First, interservice rivalry hurt the Japanese radar effort, just as it screwed up so many other aspects of Japan's war effort. The Army ordered its radar development group to divulge none of its research results to the Navy group, and the Navy soon reciprocated in kind. So a nation with a slender electronic technology base to begin with wasted precious research assets in duplicated efforts. The Army even produced a small number of its own shipborne radar (Tase-1) for it's own Army transports and submarines. This duplication of effort was compounded by the tendency to spend resources on long-term projects that could not be ready in time to be used during the war, and on such wild schemes as a microwave "death ray" to fry bomber crews. The latter project was partially a product of desperation, pushed by researchers who knew the war could not be won by conventional means. The "death ray" succeeded in killing rabbits at a range of 5 meters, but was utterly impractical for bringing down bombers. Nor was the Japanese radar effort helped by the social gulf between physicists and engineers. Japanese engineers were poorly trained in antenna theory, crucial to understanding radar performance, but the Japanese physicists who had such knowledge were largely ignorant of electronics. On top of this was the contempt of senior officers for the radar development program. "Why do we need this? Men's eyes see perfectly well," was a common complaint from the brass according to Haruki Iki, a graduate of the Naval Technical Institute before the war.

By the end of the war, quality control on Japanese electronics was so poor that often only one tube in 100 actually worked, and even those that passed inspection had a mean time to failure of as little as 100 hours. For a system with 40 tubes, this meant a mean time to failure of just two or three hours. The shortage of nickel, used in heater filaments, had to be alleviated by purchasing nickel coins at Hong Kong and melting them down.

Inferiority in radar electronics was compounded by the failure of the Japanese to develop the command and control required to make the best use of radar information. By 1944, American ships began to be equipped with combat information centers (CICs) equipped to process radar data and vector fighters accordingly. Japanese development of a comparable capability was hampered by Japanese weakness in aircraft communications systems. Japanese radar procedures were also faulty. Japanese prisoners of war reported that Japanese early warning radars were shut down when Allied aircraft came within ten miles, lest the radar provide a homing point. This prevented vectored interception of Allied raids. The Japanese Navy likewise ordered ships to keep their radars shut down when under radio silence until 1944, which eliminated their value for early warning.

Yet, somehow despite these self inflicted injuries the Japanese did manage to get quite a few sets into the field with 30 different types of sets and approximately 7256+ sets of all types built.

Daniel Prates
08-04-11, 02:11 PM
Seems the Brits installed some facing the English Channel.

Not only some, they had a complete channel surveilance system. The equipment was the best that money and technology would allow, and the germans devoted quite an effort to Jam them. Jamming stations were built and brought to full effectiveness slowly and one station at a time - and then, in a given date, all stations started working at the same time, and all british naval surveilance systems stoped working alltogether. In the brief hours of confusion, the Scharnhost and the Gineisenau (and several escorts) had taken advantage of poor weather to reach Kiel. This was known as 'operation cerberus' and gives an idea on what was the stage of technological warfare regarding radar in europe.

Sure, the japanese had nothing like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Dash

WernherVonTrapp
08-05-11, 03:22 PM
When you read about some of the byzantine struggles the Japanese had with radar it's a wonder they ever got any sets into operation.

Interesting that you should mention that because one of the first truly good radar antennas was invented by Japanese scientists in (I think) 1926. Called the Yagi-Uda antenna, or more often just the "Yagi" antenna; it was never really given any serious thought by the Japanese until it started turning up on captured enemy equipment. It was through such captured examples (I think at Singapore, Philippinnes, etc.) that the Japanese were even able to advance as quickly (or slowly if you like) as they did in the area of radar technology. One thing they never had throughout the entire war was the PPI (the Planned Position Indicator) display. That made all the difference in the world during the war.

Armistead
08-06-11, 02:29 AM
Reading more on the Barb, attacking a convoy in the Luzon near the Islands it reads they pick up radar from both land and ships. Also at night stated over 8 planes were attacking the wolfpack, I assume by sight, but late 44 maybe they had radar.

Torplexed
08-06-11, 10:38 AM
Interesting that you should mention that because one of the first truly good radar antennas was invented by Japanese scientists in (I think) 1926. Called the Yagi-Uda antenna, or more often just the "Yagi" antenna; it was never really given any serious thought by the Japanese until it started turning up on captured enemy equipment. It was through such captured examples (I think at Singapore, Philippinnes, etc.) that the Japanese were even able to advance as quickly (or slowly if you like) as they did in the area of radar technology. One thing they never had throughout the entire war was the PPI (the Planned Position Indicator) display. That made all the difference in the world during the war.


Indeed. The Japanese claimed to have built their first cavity magnetron as early as 1937, and by 1939 JRC had produced a 10cm 500W cavity magnetron. The British did not produce a comparable design until February 1940. However, lack of interest and support meant that Japan quickly lost its lead in this crucial technology. The first inklings of the military potential of radar did not come to the Japanese until late 1939, which was very late in the game.

Oh well, they did build some of the best torpedoes of the war. ;)

WernherVonTrapp
08-06-11, 12:59 PM
Indeed. The Japanese claimed to have built their first cavity magnetron as early as 1937, and by 1939 JRC had produced a 10cm 500W cavity magnetron. The British did not produce a comparable design until February 1940. However, lack of interest and support meant that Japan quickly lost its lead in this crucial technology. The first inklings of the military potential of radar did not come to the Japanese until late 1939, which was very late in the game.

Oh well, they did build some of the best torpedoes of the war. ;)That's a bit of an oversimplification, but to a certain extent, true. What the Japanese had at that time was a split-anode magnatron. The Japnese Radio Company began microwave research in 1932. The work was criticized for lack of a practical application but collaboration with the Navy Lab revitalized it. It wasn't the Cavity Magnatron but rather, a unique design that produced somewhat similar results. The 500W 10cm design wasn't actually realized until April 1939, but it was definitely a working microwave design.

It's a rather complicated affair which cannot be adaquately explained with my very limited typing skills, not to mention all the boring technical terms, some of which I don't fully grasp myself.

Still, in all fairness, I should mention that in 1936 & 1937, two Soviet scientists (N.F. Alekseev and D.D. Malairov) produced a series of Cavity Magnatrons as part of a AA gun laying research project. For some unexplainable reason, they discarded the Cavity Magnatron in favor of a pulsed transmitter that used VHF triodes on 64cm and 12kw peak power. This system was code named "Zenith" and it too was discarded in 1940.:o

Also, the abandonment of their cavity magnatron research lead to their research papers being published publicly. Those published papers were a complete disclosure of the elements of the cavity magnatron.
Go figure.http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-confused005.gif

Coincidentally, the first microwave radar prototype (a horn type design), on any IJN warship, was during the battle of Midway. However, that warship (a battleship) was anchored in a Japanese harbor at the time.

TorpX
08-06-11, 11:08 PM
@WernherVonTrapp:

Where did you obtain all of this info? I assume it is not found in the popular WWII literature.

Armistead
08-07-11, 12:35 AM
Wern is our resident authority of higher learning over at the SH4 forum.
Not only that he's a wordsmith, a gentleman and damn good liar regarding his patrol reports.

WernherVonTrapp
08-07-11, 03:50 AM
@WernherVonTrapp:

Where did you obtain all of this info? I assume it is not found in the popular WWII literature.

Technical And Military Imperatives A Radar History of World War II by Louis Brown
http://www.amazon.com/Radar-History-World-War-Imperatives/dp/0750306599/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312706745&sr=1-1

I'm currently awaiting delivery of another (rare) book on Japanese Radar during WWII.
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Radar-Related-Weapons-World/dp/0894122711/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312707246&sr=1-1


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519D5G4YE6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

@Armistead:
:DLI'm no smarter than you my friend.:salute:

TorpX
08-08-11, 01:36 AM
That first book looks very good, though kind of pricey. :ping:

WernherVonTrapp
08-10-11, 01:08 PM
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/9a5d5d36.jpg

Ahh, the book just arrived and came earlier than expected. I was fortunate enough to see that a vendor is now offering this rare gem for only $30.00 (+ S&H). Less than a year ago, there was only one or two copies available and the price was $130.00, and it's not that large of a book.
I noticed one of the reviews saything that the pictures were grainy, etc. but they look pretty good to me. Anyway, that review was there when the price was $130.00 so, I suspect for that price, he can gripe if he wants. Still, having the other more comprehensive radar book, this should do nicely as a supplement. Now, if I could just finish reading Shattered Sword and Halsey's Typhoon.:o

Daniel Prates
08-10-11, 06:52 PM
Now, if I could just finish reading Shattered Sword and Halsey's Typhoon.:o

And that nasty "Ulysses" by James Joyce, which has been collecting dust in your shelf for the last 10 years. :|\\

WernherVonTrapp
08-10-11, 08:00 PM
And that nasty "Ulysses" by James Joyce, which has been collecting dust in your shelf for the last 10 years. :|\\Aww, I don't think it'll be that bad.:O::D

WernherVonTrapp
08-22-11, 06:34 PM
Coincidentally, the first microwave radar prototype (a horn type design), on any IJN warship, was during the battle of Midway. However, that warship (a battleship) was anchored in a Japanese harbor at the time.Just correcting a bad memory mistake: It wasn't a horn type design but a type-21 prototype (mattress-type) and it was on the battleship "Ise".