Fast TF Approach and Penetration

[Doenitz2008]

Penetrating a convoy. I've located a huge CV
TF. Conditions are : 0030, light winds, no
fog, calm seas, and no moon. The TF is
bearing 82, at a distance of 8.2 NM, heading SW, speed 21.
The first contact is the lead DD of a DD picket consisting of
4 on the starboard side of the TF and 4 to port. The interior
of the convoy consists of at least 1 CV and several CA's. I'm
on my 8th patrol of a career which I am basically using for learning
different targeting and approach techniques so I have multiple saves.
I've tried various approaches and have not managed to get into
the interior. The TF is going too fast for me to plot an end around
intercept, plus it is in the Slot so I don't have a huge amount of
distance to play with. I've tried approaching at 90 degrees as deep
as possible. I got almost close enough for a firing solution into the
first row, but I was getting pinged about 3-4 minutes before my
target reached solution. I've tried approaching at a more obtuse
angle, say 45 degrees, but again I was detected and this time
way beyond a firing solution. Probably they detected me on passive
sonar. I'm beginning to think that I might have just detected this
TF at a much less than optimal initial setup and it might just
be impossible to get into it. Seems that a successful attack on a
fast moving TF is just as much a matter of being lucky in detecting
it initially with a more optimal setup as it is with your approach
to it. Any tips welcomed.

[gAiNiAc]

It's been a while since I've been here..........

but.............

Get aggressive.

Sucker the screen into charging you and charge the main body.

If detection is a given then move in fast, get shots off then evade taking advantage of the chaos.

Try and get a bead on the first ship of the main column. Hit her and the following ships will have to slow and avoid providing further targets of opportunity.

[commandosolo2009]

well, play it safe. If you have a save before current position while they're a while back, head further try to line up with the carrier. If you dont, dont bother, save your fuel, and report it to comsubpac. I'm sure you wont mind a deeper boat taking the Carrier out, since you're all part of the same team..

Another idea, is to establish their base course and move well ahead. If you're coming to a dead end, save your eels for merchants.., oh, and report to comsubpac..

Go get'em tiger!!

[pabbi]

Conditions are : 0030, light winds, no
fog, calm seas, and no moon.


Are you sure you can´t get to them on surface. Say 45° angle.

[Doenitz2008]

I've pretty much tried every angle and the geometry just isn't working out. Bummer. If someone wants to have a go at it I'll send you a save game file.

[TorpX]

I don't have a magic wand and I doubt there is one.
In RL, finding a large TF was very unusual and sinking a capitol ship was even more so. Most sub skippers, even the successful ones, never got one. It is easy to forget that. As you found out, hitting a fast moving and well protected target is not easy (nor should it be). This is especially true when you start in an unfavorable position. The odds of success are usually better, if you start out ahead of the group (as you already figured out). My advice would be to make your best approach, and if you can't get close, make a long range shot. When it comes to capitol ships, even a very long shot is better than none at all. Happy Hunting!

[Diopos]

If the TF is at a relative bearing 82° heading SW and fast try to maneuver for an aft shot. That is move in reverse and try for an O'Kane (or whatever angle attainable) with your aft tubes.


.

[Armistead]

All you need to do is fire a torp from long range, M14, they see the wake, they'll slow down and go into a zig pattern. I even use the DG, 5-6000 yards works well. Obvious this is a night tactic.

Haul arse after the first hit or they see the torps. Escorts will head to where the torps came from, you should be long gone then, you should now have an exposed flank to attack with your next end around. Takes timing, but works great.

I'll often get found out at long range on purpose by radar, torp wake.
Usually I do it from the front of the group about 5000 yards to a flank.
When the escorts chasing get about 6000 yards I'll dive flank and head to my attack point. The escorts will go to where you dived, so go deep and fast and head away, if you can get 2000 yards away from where you dived before they get there, they probably won't find you. You should be able to come up and attack why the escorts are searching where you dived.

[Platapus]

Surface and use deck guns ya wuss! :arrgh!:

Seriously, this is an interesting tactical problem. Good luck in getting a good solution to it.

[I'm goin' down]

Armitead knosw what he is talkking about.

I prefer to come in below the thermal lawyer if I am in deep water. Plot the TF course. Set up of O'Kane. Do not surface until the first dd passes your zero bearing. You will be in the TF perimeter and fire away. You can use manual targeting if you have time to fiddle with the range dials when you surface, but O'Kane is simpler.

Shallow water. After plotting the TF course and speed, set up for manual targeting using the Easy Aob. Submerge and move to 3000 to 3,500 yds. Fire when the first dd crosses zero bearing and your target moves within range. Alternative, use the constant bearing technique.

Manual targeting example. My machine crashed after I hit a Yamato in July, 44 with 5 torps at a running depth of 25 feet, and it did not sink. I got to replay the mission as a result, as the mission was not saved. The second time I hit it with 5 torps running at 32-34 feet. Range on both attack runs was 3,600 yds. The second time the Yamato sailed off...again. Two hours later, as my boat was chasing the dds that accompanied it, I caught sight of it at long range behind me. It was dead in the water. I circled back and hit it with three more torpedoes, making eight total hits. It went down, finally. I sailed back to port expecting the medal of honor, but all I ended up with when I docked was a promotion to a desk job....the war had ended!

[commandosolo2009]

I've pretty much tried every angle and the geometry just isn't working out. Bummer. If someone wants to have a go at it I'll send you a save game file.

OK, I wanna have a go. Send me the mission file. I'll record and upload a youtube sinking response :) :salute:

[Hylander_1314]

All you need to do is fire a torp from long range, M14, they see the wake, they'll slow down and go into a zig pattern. I even use the DG, 5-6000 yards works well. Obvious this is a night tactic.

Haul arse after the first hit or they see the torps. Escorts will head to where the torps came from, you should be long gone then, you should now have an exposed flank to attack with your next end around. Takes timing, but works great.

I'll often get found out at long range on purpose by radar, torp wake.
Usually I do it from the front of the group about 5000 yards to a flank.
When the escorts chasing get about 6000 yards I'll dive flank and head to my attack point. The escorts will go to where you dived, so go deep and fast and head away, if you can get 2000 yards away from where you dived before they get there, they probably won't find you. You should be able to come up and attack why the escorts are searching where you dived.

Best advice here!

It's the exact same thing I do when in that situation. Most fast moving TFs I've run across are making 30+ knots which easily outpaces my fleetboat, so a fish fired from any angle to get them to slow their pace, while you hal @$$ is the best thing to get their attention, and as Armistead said you should be outta there long before the escorts arrive, since they will slow to 15 knots or less, and combined with the zig-zagging, makes their linear speed even a bit less, you should more than enough time get ahead of them, charge in close enough, dive to periscope depth, and hit them on that open flank side of the TF.

Even though they don't do much, have a few of the Mk 27 Cuties in the aft tubes to discourage any escorts that may try to tail you. I have had DDs break off from following me from the blast of a Cutie under the keel. Even sent one to bottom once. Usually though, they stagger off, and it gives you a break to either dive deep, or beat it to the next intercept point.

[I'm goin' down]

All you need to do is fire a torp from long range, M14, they see the wake, they'll slow down and go into a zig pattern. I even use the DG, 5-6000 yards works well. Obvious this is a night tactic.

Haul arse after the first hit or they see the torps. Escorts will head to where the torps came from, you should be long gone then, you should now have an exposed flank to attack with your next end around. Takes timing, but works great.

I'll often get found out at long range on purpose by radar, torp wake.
Usually I do it from the front of the group about 5000 yards to a flank.
When the escorts chasing get about 6000 yards I'll dive flank and head to my attack point. The escorts will go to where you dived, so go deep and fast and head away, if you can get 2000 yards away from where you dived before they get there, they probably won't find you. You should be able to come up and attack why the escorts are searching where you dived.

I figured out why I do not understand your method. What is DG? What is a position in front of the group (TF?) about 5,000 yds to a flank? Is that ahead of the TF and off to one side?

Maybe you can post as diagram of your method?

p.s. I am trying to learn ATO. It seems very interesting. Those that play it seemed hooked.

[Armistead]

I figured out why I do not understand your method. What is DG? What is a position in front of the group (TF?) about 5,000 yds to a flank? Is that ahead of the TF and off to one side?

Maybe you can post as diagram of your method?

p.s. I am trying to learn ATO. It seems very interesting. Those that play it seemed hooked.


DG is deckgun. Sometimes I use it to slow a group down at night or pull escorts. You have to shoot from several thousand yards, but one hit, the group will go into zig mode and DD's usually come looking.

[Doenitz2008]

Wow. Thanks for all the tips. I'm going to give each and every one of them a try. And I will send that save game file for you to have a go at it, I've got a feeling you are going to make me feel like a fool, but hey thats how you learn....

:salute:

PS: SOlo tried uploading it, I don't have access to upload yet. Once I do I will let you know...

[commandosolo2009]

roger, stay low till then :yeah:

[Armistead]

I figured out why I do not understand your method. What is DG? What is a position in front of the group (TF?) about 5,000 yds to a flank? Is that ahead of the TF and off to one side?

Maybe you can post as diagram of your method?

p.s. I am trying to learn ATO. It seems very interesting. Those that play it seemed hooked.

This is sort of how I do it. Cut cams and contacts on, but I play with cams off with contacts on. If I play with contacts off, I use the radar mod to plot. Just started a new career with a Tambor out of Pearl and went to where I knew a TF would be coming. I got the lag and checked sonar. The speed for it is usually 19. A few planes came by, so I let them spot me before I dived. The SS's suck as I'm using an old card now.

But here I am dived after the planes, that sent a group of DD's towards me, which is fine. I don't have radar, so harder to explain since you can't see the contacts.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_163725_471.jpg

I came up so they would see me. Still don't have lines for the main TF, but I know it's coming on sonar and general direction. I figured the DD's coming put the group in a zig and slowed it down. Here is the DD's coming as I go into a dive, almost got too close.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_164003_221.jpg



I alway mark where I dive so I know where the DD's should head, I flank the heck out of there needing to get out of their sonar range, I plot towards the TF. Course if this was night I would've shot a torp to get attention and probably never dived.
A sonar line for the main group shows up. DD's are falling behind me.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_164241_596.jpg

Come up to scope to check, big group still far, ID a carrier. I can see he slowed down going into zigs, basically WSW. The DD's are behind me searching where I dived and dropping charges on fish, so 3 out of the way, flank is exposed. The main circle line is just a line I set earlier as a guess, so pay it no attention. The group is going 14kts. That's why you need to dive no more than 3-5000 yards from where you think you will attack or you may not have time to get to a shooting position. If I have radar, obviously I can figure speed and course and get in a better postion before being found out., but with me going 9kts, I was able to shoot.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_164629_111.jpg

Shaping up. Course I was at flank to get there, just slow at scope.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_165405_564.jpg

Farily decent set up, still out of 6 fired, 3 failures, one dang circle runner, only one hit.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_170308_893.jpg

Carrier was listing, Here I am evading to the SE
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_171328_439.jpg

Skip some time, I come up and give chase. Dang if a storm didn't come up so I chased right through the group. Being a big group, took some time to figure by sonar where the wounded carrier was. It was almost dark, I tracked speed by running with it, got close and did my usual guessing and got two hits, it sunk...
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_175710_158.jpg

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_180146_033.jpg

I then went to tracking by sonar what sounded like a carrier and shot at it scoring hits...not for sure what it was, cept big.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_180758_283.jpg

Slowly it fell behind. Watching on sonar it was barely moving, so I head towards it. I get close enough to see it, on it and it cut it's lights on, I was running decks awash so I could get under. I dive under it and come back on the other side, figure it's barely moving, set up and shoot.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_181233_877.jpg

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_182333_158.jpg

Where I was when I shot.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-03-07_182359_893.jpg

Hopefully the beginning somewhat explains how I pull the escorts away. Main thing if the group is fast is to slow it down by somehow being found out. Sometimes you can't pull of the attack the first time or get in firing position, but DD's shouldn't find you. Just evade and do another end around, hopefully the group will stay in zigs. Even at 19 kts you can eventually catch a zigging group. Another way to slow a group down of warships is to keep pinging it why far away. This group actually went back to some fast speed during the storm. Running flank it seemed I could barely catch them. I plotted 17 kts.

[NorthBeach]

I've used the method Armistead models, successfully. A variation is to set up a high deflection, long range, aft Mk14 (set to slow) to draw the DDs off on the same course that will allow you to then dash across their bow and set up a 200-215deg (or 155-140deg) aft Cromwell to keep your profile slim. Shooting aft/center/bow is a must at that angle to keep them from juking out of the way. The advantage here is that your escape route is in front of you, and an end around is just a couple of thousand of yards away.

[I'm goin' down]

armistead, that was impressive.

north beach - an aft cromwell shot is quite imaginative.

My best was hiding in a jap boat slip on truk to escape depth charges. It worked!

[Dignan]

This is sort of how I do it. Cut cams and contacts on, but I play with cams off with contacts on. If I play with contacts off, I use the radar mod to plot. Just started a new career with a Tambor out of Pearl and went to where I knew a TF would be coming. I got the lag and checked sonar. The speed for it is usually 19. A few planes came by, so I let them spot me before I dived. The SS's suck as I'm using an old card now.
Hopefully the beginning somewhat explains how I pull the escorts away. Main thing if the group is fast is to slow it down by somehow being found out. Sometimes you can't pull of the attack the first time or get in firing position, but DD's shouldn't find you. Just evade and do another end around, hopefully the group will stay in zigs. Even at 19 kts you can eventually catch a zigging group. Another way to slow a group down of warships is to keep pinging it why far away. This group actually went back to some fast speed during the storm. Running flank it seemed I could barely catch them. I plotted 17 kts.


Well described armistead. You always make this game look very versatile. Two questions...

1. Were you using Dick O'Kane or the position keeper when you fired? I'm guessing the PK based on the angles you fired at.

2. What mods?

[Armistead]

In storms, I really just watch sonar and try to hold it on a fixed bearing to match speed and get a basic course, then get about 600 yards so have a much better chance. I'll ping before my shot just to check distance as they're ususally closer than the sonar lines.

This group lights were off. I consider it more of a cheat, but you can pop a ship a few times with the deckgun and the flashing light will often come on, giving you something to aim at, but it's funner not knowing.

I never use O'Kane, in that setting it up to put me on a fixed course, but after manual targeting, I will unlock, set a bearing in front of the target and shoot by the wire as it passes. In a storm where I can't see it, I use the spread wheel.

[I'm goin' down]

This group lights were off. I consider it more of a cheat, but you can pop a ship a few times with the deckgun and the flashing light will often come on, giving you something to aim at, but it's funner not knowing.

It's time to start teaching at the war college when you think an attack run on a TF in TMO2.1/RSRDC is "funner."

[Armistead]

It's time to start teaching at the war college when you think an attack run on a TF in TMO2.1/RSRDC is "funner."

Maybe I should've said more challenging

[Dogfish40]

I don't have a magic wand and I doubt there is one.
In RL, finding a large TF was very unusual and sinking a capitol ship was even more so. Most sub skippers, even the successful ones, never got one. It is easy to forget that. As you found out, hitting a fast moving and well protected target is not easy (nor should it be). This is especially true when you start in an unfavorable position. The odds of success are usually better, if you start out ahead of the group (as you already figured out). My advice would be to make your best approach, and if you can't get close, make a long range shot. When it comes to capitol ships, even a very long shot is better than none at all. Happy Hunting!


Well said! The IJN destroyers were pretty savvy at detecting subs and many skippers were frustrated time and again having to break away from even favorable shots because the DD's were bearing down. However, there were magic moments when the convoys size dictated that the escorts be a good distance away from their benefactors because they couldn't hear the subs from the immense amount of prop wash from the convoy. These left precious holes in the defence. Much of the sub Skippers frustrations were from patrols that would sneak up seemingly out of nowhere and force the subs to dive deep.
As TorpX said, there were not a lot of successful attacks from lone fleet subs, however there were a few by U.S Wolfpacks of two to three subs that would harrass the hell out of convoys for miles.
Keep it up, you'll find it, Good Hunting.:salute:
D40

[Rockin Robbins]

That was sure worst case conditions: no wind, calm seas and lots of escorts. You can't guarantee success or even survival in those conditions. The best you can hope for is to slow the convoy and hope they make a mistake. The end around to the unguarded side is absolutely crucial. If they force you down and get on top of you your chances are not good.

In similar conditions with shallow water I've just let to convoy go sometimes. You get a feeling about what's up and that is a good thing to listen to.:D