View Full Version : torpedoes going behind target
I've been playing sh4 for ~4 months now and my torps always go behind where i'm aiming. Most times I miss the ship entirely (yes, i open the torp doors).
I think the speed calc is off using 2 stadiometer readings and then the speed/course calc.
Try getting speed by marking the target on the map, waiting three minutes, and marking it again. Every 100 yards traveled equals 1 knot. (700 yards = 7 knots, 1200 yards = 12 knots, etc.)
The automatic speed/course can be wrong if you get a bad stadimeter range.
Try getting speed by marking the target on the map, waiting three minutes, and marking it again. Every 100 yards traveled equals 1 knot. (700 yards = 7 knots, 1200 yards = 12 knots, etc.)
The automatic speed/course can be wrong if you get a bad stadimeter range.
I'm starting to think it may be a combination of speed and range (bad stadiomter readings). Cuz I do use the nav map as i have map contacts turned on, and sometimes cheat on the speed using the contacts marks and time between marks, i never really double check the range with the navmap. When i use the navmap and cheat on the speed, i still end up shooting behind. I was starting to think the ships suddenly speed up, which is possible, but not all the time.
Just getting frustrated watching my torps go behind every single time. I've played SH3 with OLC GUI and never had this many consistent bad shots.
Currently using RFB and RSRD.
thx for letting me vent.
Practice, practice. 1 foot per sec = 0.59248 knots 1 Meter per Second = 1.9438444924406046 Knot use a sonar ping for range check your torp depth.
Armistead
12-30-10, 02:37 PM
It's possible ships do speed up. Start shooting spreads from the front towards the back or try adjusting speed up about .5-1kt for the first shot if within 2000 yards, then adjust back down to your correct speed setting. That will usually hold the ship in place from speeding up. You will still probably get a hit. Study the thread skipper bag of tricks and learn to shoot by the wire at parts of ships.
Another helpful tool for stad measurments is Maxoptics and SCAF mod. You get better magnification and easier stad marking points, instead of using the highest mast, you often use funnels, decks, ect..as marking points.
Using the 3 minute rule isn't a cheat. This is basically the same info those on plot would be using, we just have to do it a lil different because we lack some sub function and tools.
I'd suggest firing a spread. Not only does it give you a better chance at hitting a target, it's realistic. Sub skippers didn't have a way to check their speed, range, and AoB estimates easily, they didn't have complete or even accurate information on their target, and firing a spread was a good way to maximize the chance of getting a hit.
I remember reading something about the doctrine being used. They would estimate the length of the target, determine the spread for one and a half the target length, and fire the spread. It guarantees that there will be some misses, but the chance of getting a hit is greater.
I'd suggest firing a spread. Not only does it give you a better chance at hitting a target, it's realistic. Sub skippers didn't have a way to check their speed, range, and AoB estimates easily, they didn't have complete or even accurate information on their target, and firing a spread was a good way to maximize the chance of getting a hit.
I remember reading something about the doctrine being used. They would estimate the length of the target, determine the spread for one and a half the target length, and fire the spread. It guarantees that there will be some misses, but the chance of getting a hit is greater.
Thx for the advice. It's frustrating cuz i never had this problem in sh3...ever. So i'm struggling to figure out what i'm doin wrong.
On the ping for range, won't that alert the escorts?
On the spreads, I am firing spreads, i've gotten to the point i'm firing all my torps in front of the target, but last night i only went 5 deg max to the left (ship was moving from right to left) and counted down by 1 deg per torp. Next time, i'm goin 15, 10, 5 and maybe 2. :damn:
I'm probably thinking i'm not going to use the stad meter, i might just use the nav map and manually enter ranges and speed. I have done that for speed (the 3 min rule), just not range.
where do you usually set the depth of the torp? Last night, the keel for the ship i was targeting was 24 feet. I set the torp depth to 10-15 feet. I do swear one was going to hit on aft of the ship and went underneath.
And finally, on another note, in RFB is there a way to ID the ship? There was in FOTRS, but that button is gone in RFB. I do like realism...to a point. I'd prefer to have a weapons officer ID the ship.
Thx for all your help.
Thx for the advice. It's frustrating cuz i never had this problem in sh3...ever. So i'm struggling to figure out what i'm doin wrong.
Heh. I tried manual targeting in SH3 once. Never managed to hit anything.
You might try one of these methods:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1007637&postcount=204
That's how I got started in manual targeting. Set it up right, and range doesn't matter.
On the ping for range, won't that alert the escorts?
I would think so, but I never use it. Perhaps someone else can better answer that.
On the spreads, I am firing spreads, i've gotten to the point i'm firing all my torps in front of the target, but last night i only went 5 deg max to the left (ship was moving from right to left) and counted down by 1 deg per torp. Next time, i'm goin 15, 10, 5 and maybe 2.
Yeah, sounds like your data is a bit off. Practice, practice, practice. Try using the stadimeter and checking your data on the attack map screen until you feel very comfortable doing it.
I'm probably thinking i'm not going to use the stad meter, i might just use the nav map and manually enter ranges and speed. I have done that for speed (the 3 min rule), just not range.
That should work, at least enough for you to hit the target. The map tools can be a bit inaccurate.
where do you usually set the depth of the torp? Last night, the keel for the ship i was targeting was 24 feet. I set the torp depth to 10-15 feet. I do swear one was going to hit on aft of the ship and went underneath.
I'm usually playing early war, so I set my torpedoes to run as shallow as possible. Either set the depth to minimum, or leave it at the default depth.
And finally, on another note, in RFB is there a way to ID the ship? There was in FOTRS, but that button is gone in RFB. I do like realism...to a point. I'd prefer to have a weapons officer ID the ship.
Thx for all your help.
Not sure on that one. I play TMO, and haven't touched RFB in a long time.
Armistead
12-30-10, 06:04 PM
Pinging will alert escorts, the higher the crew rating, the further away they will come a looking for you. I was pinged a carrier group from long range that I coudn't see...and a few minutes later escorts were coming towards my submerged position...
Also if you're playing stock the range wheel is limited, maybe 1500 yards. Not sure about RFB.
Start checking your attack map. If contacts are on, you should see a black hash, that is the mark of attack based on your info. If you have the PK on, adjust until the black hash is on the target and moving with it. That will at least show you your set up is good. If the black hash is beyond the target, you know range is off. Obvious, you need the scope of for a visual.
Not sure if RFB allows this closer in.
tmdgm:
From what you describe I can think of 3 possibilities:
Are you sure the TDC is on? The GSP light must be on for it to calculate a firing solution.
The range, speed, AoB data on the dials must be entered by pressing the right button otherwise it won't be used by the TDC.
The speed estimates given by the crew are just that - estimates. The same goes for the target marker on the map. It is possible to enter all the data the crew provides correctly and still miss.
BTW, the torp depth is set on the slide out panel at the left of the periscope. Hope this helps.
i'm sorry guys, i've EFFFN had it with this game. I just played again, came across a merchant. I have map contacts on so I can see his ship on my map with scope up. I calc 8 knots marking the distance and measuring time, using the chart on the right side. Didn't even use stadimeter. Enter in range, AOB as i have his course and put in 8 knots. I push the red button on TDC. All torps at min depth. Open all doors.
First torp at 10deg to right (target moving left to right). Second torp at 5 deg to right. Third torp at 0 deg. Last torp at 2 deg left. Guess what. They all go in front of the EFFN ship!!! I throw things and quit.
i replay again exact same scenerio. except this time I take marks more often as i want to see if his speed is changing. He's goin 8 knots, no wait, he's goin 10 knots, then he's goin 6 knots. I'm convinced he's changing speed at 3 min intervals. Remember I have map contacts on, scope up so I can see the contact accurately, and this is at night so should be tough to see my scope. This speed change happen more than i think.
Same ritual as above, I kept in 8 knots in tdc. Hit the red button to track. All doors open. First torp 5 deg to right, second and third torps at 0 deg, fourth at 5 deg to left.
They ALL GO EFFN BEHIND!!!!! WTF???? This is insane. I'm convinced i have a bug or a bad install (using RFB). I can't even consistently miss in the same direction with map contacts on. Don't ask me how you play this game with map contacts off. How is this even remotely possible to miss in opposite directions with the same speed in tdc?!?! Unless the merchant is drastically changing speed!!!
I was ~400-500 yds from target both times firing the torps. Confirmed on nav map and on TDC. AOB was good. Both times had 8 knots, exact same EFFN ship in the exact same scenario.
I did for kicks try checking the stadiometer, looks like it's 200-300 yds off nav map, altho the RFB scope sucks and is hard to line up to the bottom of the ship. Like I said, how you play this game without map contacts on is beyond me. And it does seem like the merchant is rapidly changing speeds. That's the only thing that could possibly be off to cause me to miss at first fore, then aft. And I've NEVER EVER had anything near this in SH3 using GWX and OLC GUI.
Maybe TMO is better, but for now, I'm heading back to SH3, unless i can think of something dumb and obvious, but only thing i can see is the merchant is going from 6 to 10 knots on 2 min intervals. Again sorry for my tantrum but eff this!!
sharkbit
12-31-10, 08:39 AM
The basic principle is the same whether you play SH3 or SH4. The only real difference is the TDC's. That was the biggest thing I had trouble getting my head around when I first started playing SH4 after SH3. After much practice, the little light bulb has come on and I enjoy SH4 quite a bit.
I have noticed ships changing speeds but not near as often as you have said. It is frustrating but I've never read a book about the US boats in the Pacific(or any other submarines in any other theater) that there wasn't any frustration on the skipper's/kaluen's part.
I would suggest using the mission editor to set up some target practice. Set up one or two ships in the middle of nowhere, prewar so they don't panic when they see you, at a set speed. Put yourself ahead of and perpindicular to their track and practice, practice, practice.
Now you don't have to worry about speed changes, the target taking evasive manuevers, being attacked, etc.
You can change variables such as speed, range, and AOB as you wish as you gain experience.
Good luck and don't give up yet.
:)
Rockin Robbins
12-31-10, 07:08 PM
If you'd run us through your targeting procedure step-by-step we could get you on target. I'll bet you're entering data into the TDC in the wrong order. That will cause you to miss aft of the target every time.
But before I spew out a bunch of inappropriate advice I need to know what you're doing...
NorthBeach
12-31-10, 11:23 PM
Are you making sure to hit the "Send To TDC" button TWICE when entering data?
Are you making sure to hit the "Send To TDC" button TWICE when entering data?
Sorry fellas for the tirade above. Needed some R+R after that last patrol.
Good idea on practice mission, however I've actually done one of the single missions several times and became quite good at hitting the same target over and over again (or so I thought). I seem to be having troubles in the campaigns.
(Whispering to NorthBeach) ...umm...you have to hit the button twice??? :oops:
Here's my basic procedures when I use the stadimeter only, done this method countless times:
1) Take a range reading using stadimeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
2) Take second range reading using stadmeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
3) Go to speed calc and click on the button where it estimates speed.
4) Once speed (and course) is calc'd, I click send to tdc (click only once). THis is assuming the speed calc is fairly close to what I estimated on nav map. If it's not, I enter my own speed from the 3 min rule and hit send to tdc. Verify the speed updated on the left tdc window.
5) I go to angle on bow and adjust the ship to match the calc'd course on the left picture. Click send to tdc (click only once). Verify the AOB updates on the tdc window.
6) I then hit the red button to start tracking
7) As the ship gets closer, I will redo step 1 for range and sometimes double check step 5 for AOB.
8) I set torp depths
9) After final repeat of step 1 for range, I open torp doors, adjust torp angle left or right. Target is locked in sight.
10) Fire
I think that's all of em.
I only just did manual range (not stadmeter) entry once or twice. Basically the same steps above except I get the range from the nav map. I only click send to tdc once.
So at least from your comments, sounds like there may be something i'm doing wrong, which is great cuz at least there's something i can try again.
I haven't used the Sh4 TDC, so I can't help much with the details of which buttons, etc. The idea by Sharkbit is a good one, and I would even suggest using a non-moving target to eliminate target speed as a variable. If you have already done this and are still having trouble more detective work is in order. Are you trying to make your approach with only two observations? In RL often 5 or more were neccessary. I would suggest making more and checking the data generated by the position keeper. It should be close to what is on your map. When you enter the data before turning on the position keeper, how much time has elapsed? Keep in mind the range, bearing, aob are changing in real time. If you take the range and bearing, then spend a minute to estimate speed from your map, before inputting that, then turn on the PK, the TDC will be using old range and bearing data. They can change a lot in a minute. In any case, I would suggest pausing the game to look over the TDC dials to see if the data inputs/outputs make sense. If they do not, try to isolate which elements are incorrect.:06:
I usually wait at least 5 min before pushing the red button.
I always take multiple readings. The above was to illustrate the basic steps. I was always double checking with nav map and stadimeter.
Are you entering range/bearing/speed/aob data quickly? (in game time - pausing the game to do calculations is ok)
NorthBeach
01-02-11, 01:21 AM
First and foremost, Armistead's advice to check out, and become familiar with the Bag of Tricks the best basic advice.
Unless you're fine-tuning your skills at perfecting all the different methods of making an Iron Reef, forget range all together (unless of course you plan on surfacing the boat and throwing a rock at the target and need to know how hard to throw it). That TDC critter will figure out a good angle to intercept the target using only bearing, AOB and speed. As long as you're within your torpedo's range, you're good (ignoring all the variables, e.g., target detects the torpedo, duds).
You can get target course and speed at the same time. As Razark said, use the 3 minute rule (or use the nomometer, if you get distracted, as I do. Often). ID where the target is and drop an "X" on it. Start your stopwatch. After 3 minutes drop an "X" where he is at that time. Draw a line extending from "X" to "X" (and further out). There's his course. Measure from "X" to "X". The distance divided by 100 is his speed. Enter his speed into the TDC and click TWICE on the red send button (I dunno why, someone has explained it somewhere).
Let's assume he's approaching with you on his port bow...
Set your boat up at roughly 90degs to his course (270, from his aspect), giving yourself enough distance to the target course so that your torpedoes will have enough distance to arm (about 450 yds, but you obviously don't have to be anywhere near that close). Enter AOB using 90 as your base, then backing off your lead angle (say 10degs for <15 kts) for 80degs. You can fine tune it by looking at the target course dial. Enter the AOB data by clicking TWICE (see above).
Drag the range dial to any range in the neighborhood of the range the target will be when he gets to the point of intercept (within 1000 yds or so. But even that doesn't matter). Point the scope up your aiming bearing (10degs relative, looking out the scope) and send to the TDC clicking, yes, you guessed it, TWICE on little red button. Drop the scope.
You should have figured out how long the target will take to approach firing range. So, giving yourself plenty of time to make adjustments, take another peek at him to check to see that he hasn't wandered off course. If he has, adjust accordingly.
Wait. When he's about 20degs off your relative bearing, raise the scope and wait for him to cross the wire. When the parts you want to have holes in them cross the wire, push the "make hole" button. Wait again. Hear explosions. Holler like a dope until the first mate comes into the room and calls you a "jackass".
Well, that's what happens in my control room...
torpx, yup, i'm entering all that data fairly quickly within i'd say 10 seconds. I haven't paused the game. Maybe I will next time to be sure. That's the initial calc. Like I said, I'll update range as the ship gets closer.
Northbeach, yup, i'm doing all the things you mentioned in your post, except for the click twice part. That's how i know the target was speeding up/slowing down on one of my strikes because you could visually see the space between the X marks get closer and farther apart. I always setup for ~90deg and range ~500 yds.
Like i said, only thing is i don't click twice. Didn't think that was necessary as the tdc always updates the range/aob/speed when i click once (the window on the left). Also, I've had 100% success when playing the single mission practice mission i have by clicking only once. But at least it gives me something else to try.
Thanks again for all your help. I'll see if it makes a difference. Probably won't be a few weeks tho till i get a chance to get back on patrol tho... life stuff.
When you "overlay" the stadimeter image on the periscope "actual" image where is the periscope's "horizon" line? (I mean the central horizontal line).
.
Armistead
01-02-11, 11:11 AM
Seems to me RFB had a different way of scope measurements, but can't say, have you tried posting in the RFB mod forum and asking. That's just a guess, maybe someone here that plays RFB knows. Overall, it appears your doing the steps correctly, so that tells me info is off somewhere.
I'm more confused by these so called speed changes you see, they just don't happen unless the enemy knows you're there and goes into zigs and almost always slows down a few knots. I've never seen the speed changes you describe playing RSRD, except when after an attack and the group breaks up ships may hit many different speeds when they regroup. Course if they see your torp wake they'll adjust to dodge it. Sometimes groups change speed with a new course leg, but not go into different speeds.
I think you are messing up on turning the TDC on. I click it on when I take the first observation and LEAVE it on. If it isn't already on when the last range/bearing every second till you do push it induces errors. The only time I don't is when I plan on making a as it crosses the wire shot. Then I never turn it on at all. I can think of no reason not to power it on from the start.
I think you are messing up on turning the TDC on. I click it on when I take the first observation and LEAVE it on. If it isn't already on when the last range/bearing every second till you do push it induces errors. The only time I don't is when I plan on making a as it crosses the wire shot. Then I never turn it on at all. I can think of no reason not to power it on from the start.
I think you may be correct.
However, i've actually given up on rfb, i'm switching to tmo. I used FOTRS for quite a while and while I did seem to be behind on my shots, I could still over compensate with the angle of torpedo and at least get 1 or 2 hits. Since I installed RFB, it's been abysmal.
So I downloaded TMO and we'll see what happens.
Rockin Robbins
01-04-11, 03:34 PM
Here's my basic procedures when I use the stadimeter only, done this method countless times:
1) Take a range reading using stadimeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
2) Take second range reading using stadmeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
3) Go to speed calc and click on the button where it estimates speed.
4) Once speed (and course) is calc'd, I click send to tdc (click only once). THis is assuming the speed calc is fairly close to what I estimated on nav map. If it's not, I enter my own speed from the 3 min rule and hit send to tdc. Verify the speed updated on the left tdc window.
5) I go to angle on bow and adjust the ship to match the calc'd course on the left picture. Click send to tdc (click only once). Verify the AOB updates on the tdc window.
6) I then hit the red button to start tracking
7) As the ship gets closer, I will redo step 1 for range and sometimes double check step 5 for AOB.
8) I set torp depths
9) After final repeat of step 1 for range, I open torp doors, adjust torp angle left or right. Target is locked in sight.
10) Fire
Oh crap! That's what I was afraid of. Time for some explanation. The torpedo data computer plots a virtual target on your map. That is the impact point of the torpedoes. If your solution is valid, you'll see that impact point plotted on your attack map, an x on the stock game or the beginning of the targeting vector on TMO and RFB. What the TDC/PK does is move that virtual target in the same direction and at the same speed as the real target, changing the TDC settings automatically over time to hit it. Understand?
If you set up the TDC and then go to your attack map (use the button from your nav map screen in stock of just press F6 in TMO). There you will be able to watch the actual target and your virtual target at the same time. They should be right on top of one another, both moving at the same speed and in the same direction. If they are not, you're wasting a torpedo.
You've been wasting a lot of torpedoes. Why? Let's see what you've done.
1) Take a range reading using stadimeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
2) Take second range reading using stadmeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.Let's say our real target is out there traveling north at 10 knots. You do step #1. This is a two part entry, although you don't know it. You are entering the bearing and range of your target into the TDC. In effect, you've just told the TDC where it is. So it dutifully plots the virtual target right on top of the real one. Hopefully you're waiting longer than 30 seconds between step 1 and step 2 so you can get a little accuracy on that speed measurement! It is VERY sensitive to small errors and a longer length of time between the two readings helps.
So we have our virtual position plotted on top of the real one. Remember that because the zinger comes later.
3) Go to speed calc and click on the button where it estimates speed.
4) Once speed (and course) is calc'd, I click send to tdc (click only once). THis is assuming the speed calc is fairly close to what I estimated on nav map. If it's not, I enter my own speed from the 3 min rule and hit send to tdc. Verify the speed updated on the left tdc window.OK, now we have our speed in the TDC. How long have you taken to do the speed stuff? Let's say about 15 seconds.
5) I go to angle on bow and adjust the ship to match the calc'd course on the left picture. Click send to tdc (click only once). Verify the AOB updates on the tdc window.Looks good, you now have the target's course in the TDC. That step also took 15 seconds. This is important! You'll see.
6) I then hit the red button to start trackingSTOP RIGHT THERE PARDNER!!!!!! Your error is now in the system. Whatever you do from here on out doesn't matter.
It's vitally important what order you enter data into the TDC. Here's what happened. First you told the TDC where the target was. Fifteen seconds later you told it what speed it was moving. Fifteen seconds later you told it what direction your target was moving. Then when you hit the red button to start the position keeper, your virtual target finally began moving. Unfortunately the real target had been moving all the time. You are aimed 30 seconds behind your target!!! Ten knots is 1000 yards in three minutes, 333.3 yards per minute, 30 seconds is a 167 yard error. Your torpedoes are headed 167 yards behind your target because that is what you targeted. If it took longer to enter your data you will miss by more.
Always turn on the PK first. Then enter the speed and AoB, then lastly the range/bearing. The instant the TDC plots the position, it will immediately (and that is important) begin moving on the course and at the speed you input. Then go to your attack map. You'll see a time right next to the targeting vector. That is your projected torpedo run. If your virtual target and the real target remain superimposed for that length of time you will hit your target. If you only fire when that is true you won't miss.
Verifying your setup with the attack map is vitally important in identifying and eliminating targeting errors. Without using the attack map, you are only guessing. With it you know you have hits on the way. I don't know why nobody else teaches the importance of the order information is fed to the TDC and when you turn on the PK, but there you can see clearly why it's important and you now have a method of calculating exactly what the magnitude of the error is.
Ahh, that could be it. Thx a bunch!!! Can't wait to give it a try.
Only thing, when you say hit PK first. Is that before the very first reading (my step 1)?
Rockin Robbins
01-05-11, 11:50 AM
It is only necessary that you turn on the PK before you do the range/bearing sighting but I always do it first so I won't forget it, as I do several attack methods that don't use the PK. When I hit it first I remember.:D
Yes, there are hidden stories of failure behind that advice...
It is only necessary that you turn on the PK before you do the range/bearing sighting but I always do it first so I won't forget it, as I do several attack methods that don't use the PK. When I hit it first I remember.:D
Yes, there are hidden stories of failure behind that advice...
Yeah, but you do two range bearing sightings? The first as the reference and the second is when you get speed and AOB. Turn it on before the first or before the second.
Rockin Robbins
01-06-11, 11:30 AM
Nope. I don't use the speed calculator, as it is too sensitive to stadimeter range errors. The most important parameter for accuracy is speed. If your AoB is off by ten degrees or your range by 100 yards, it most likely doesn't matter a bit. But if your speed is off by a knot, you're going to collect misses.
Calculating a parameter where accuracy is critical (speed) from two other parameters for which accuracy is not critical (range and AoB) is a recipe for failure every time. The only time I will use the calculate course and speed function is if there simply isn't time to do anything else. Even then, if I use the infernal function I won't shoot from outside 750 yards. The speed calculator is a solution that is much worse than the problem it attempts to solve.
Speed and target course should be determined before you even move your sub into position for the attack. I always use the 3 minute rule or other similar relationship between distance and time. That gives you plenty of time to verify and refine your numbers. As you compare predicted position with actual position while you position your boat to the target track for a nice close firing point. If you develop speed and course data from radar depth, you can get all the information you need ten or twenty minutes before you fire. If you don't have radar, you'll have to do it from periscope depth and continue refining your data until he's close enough to worry about being seen. Then you can do the rest of the attack submerged. You don't even need to raise the scope again if you don't want to. You can verify his bearing by sonar to see that he hasn't changed course and speed.
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