Something I actually miss from stock...

[Bubblehead1980]

I was thinking the one thing I actually miss from the stock version of the game is the fact that DD's would head straight for you, thus allowing you to get a chance at a real down the throat torpedo shot.In TMO they come towards you pinging but zig for some reason instead of moving in at high speed to drop charges.Also, the down the throat shots down work as well because escorts in TMO have super strength bows for some reason.

I really do miss this "tool" to help take out destroyers and escort.Did not work all the time but worked more often in stock, occasionally would nail them in the bow and itd sink them or disable them.

If I knew how to fix it, I would but suspect itd descrease the effectiveness of the escorts, which isnt a good trade off really. :damn:

[FIREWALL]

I agree. In all I've read I don't recall any zig-zag on a depth charge run.

Of the few decent movies available I don't remember seeing it either.

[Armistead]

Now that you mention it, I remember, but it is much harder and I guess that's the goal of TMO. Still, if you time the zig it's not that difficult to do DTT shots and catch them in the side and sink them. The only down side is it usually takes three torps, one to the middle and one for each possible zig, but almost always get hits. You do have to admit DTT shots were easy in stock.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree. In all I've read I don't recall any zig-zag on a depth charge run.

Of the few decent movies available I don't remember seeing it either.
But how much have you read or seen of sub skippers getting easy down-the-throat shots because the destroyers were stupid? Ducimus has said many times that the point of TMO was not to make it technically realistic, but to make the player behave in a more realistic manner. You don't read about destroyers zigging on an attack run, because they probably didn't, but also because the sub captain wasn't looking through the periscope lining up a shot - he was diving, twisting and turning.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I can't remember if I ever succeeded, or even attempted a DTT shot on a DD. On the other hand, I've had great success, when the situation was right, taking out DDs from rear angles. Usually in rough seas and when they least expect it (are stopped or moving slowly).

[Armistead]

But how much have you read or seen of sub skippers getting easy down-the-throat shots because the destroyers were stupid? Ducimus has said many times that the point of TMO was not to make it technically realistic, but to make the player behave in a more realistic manner. You don't read about destroyers zigging on an attack run, because they probably didn't, but also because the sub captain wasn't looking through the periscope lining up a shot - he was diving, twisting and turning.

Unless he was Mush Morton.....

[FIREWALL]

Unless he was Mush Morton.....


Or Clark Gable :haha:

[Armistead]

Or Clark Gable :haha:

Even better..:har:

But overall Steve is correct, few skippers had the guts to take DD's head on.

[Sailor Steve]

I think my point was really more that ever since SH1 it's been common to read players giving 'advice' on running straight away with the periscope raised so the destroyers would chase you, giving you an easy shot, and keeping score of how many DDs you had "popped". Some real skippers did take on destroyers, but the above was not the way they did it, and I'm sure that's exactly what Ducimus was trying to discourage.

[Bubblehead1980]

well I did DTT shots by turning into them and basically playing "chicken" as the RL skippers did. At 700 or 600 yards I would fire two fish and then order a hard dive with full rudder left or right, depending on the situation.Their behavior was realistic in stock, theyd see fish and attempt to turn away.The reason i find it difficult in TMO is the zigs, they dont keep a 0 AOB so its not even a down the throat shot really.Wasnt complaining on TMO or anything, just saying I miss being able to use the DTT shot now and then in the fashion of Morton or Dealey.

A few times I've had TMo DD's not zigg on the way to me when theyre close and pulled the shots off, but their super strong bows absorbed it like nothing.

Just one thing I miss about stock, ah well.

[kiwi_2005]

I have a 2nd install with just stock 1.4 & mods, no uboats mission addon, my main install has 1.5 and some supermods available but I seem to have the most fun in the stock game. Its really not all that buggy once you add a few fixes it can be quite a good game. I had trouble with aircraft spamming till at first, (crazy jap pilots!) but the mod fix that.

Got 1.4 down perfected for the gameplay I want

real Environment mod
submarine splash and roll pitch mod & new sound for Stock
warships textures
Photo rec fix for TMO & Stock
Tillabous_korallensee_flottila_v2.0 <---this mod was hard to find but worth the time hunting for it on the net, a good graphic mod adds all new skins to the fleetboats and a few other graphic details.
Websters eliminate floating plankton
Websters reduced radio traffic
Websters no_crew fatique
My Dive sounds
FjB Camera mod for stock
SubSoWestPac Air strike mod
Lite fog v1 & 2 + underwater visability

[torpedobait]

A tactic I employed in SH3 GWX-3 was to attack the DD after he made his run at me (assuming I was able to evade and survive). I would turn sharply at the last to either side at flank speed to evade his DCs, then immediately as he passed me, turn sharply back to his course and simultaneously stop all engines. Drifting, I center my rudder, let them run past me and raise the scope. At about 200 yards they will start a turn one way or another. If they are going to cross my bow, I just let them continue their turn until the angle and range are right. If he turns away, I might have to start a turn in that direction to achieve a near-zero degree off the bow shot. Your best shot is when he is near-perpendicular to your course, and the range is over 300 yards (400 is better, but 500 or so is too much - he can speed up and evade). A single high speed torp is enough to nail the DD. Aim just between the bridge and the fore stack. That will still catch him if he spots the torp and tries to turn away. Either way, if you don't let him get too far out, and he does turn after his run, you have a great opportunity to nail him. This works just as well if he is coming on you from the bow and you evade. Just get your stern pointed to him after he turs. I picked up on this one from watching Kurt Jurgens try it on Robert Mitchum in "The Enemy Below".

I have to say this works better earlier in the war, before they get those damn Y guns. Later you have to be in the zone between stern drops and the Y gun patterns - and be VERY lucky. I also find that in SH4 (TMO+RSRD, both patched) the IJN DD's are less predicable than their British and US counterparts in SH3 GWX-3. But, if you add this to your bag of tricks, it may give you one more option to get rid of one or more of those pesky escorts besides a DTT shot. Hope it helps someone survive another day! Another cautionary note: The IJN DDs seem to be more cooperative in their attacks, coming at you from different directions and in fast sequence. You need to be steady and stay calm. Finish the one attack and then be prepared to immeidately take on his brother. When I know I'm going to have a chance to engage, I set ALL torps to high speed if they allow, and pre-open all doors so I am ready for a quick shot. Like the scouts say: Be Prepared! Good luck, Captains, and good hunting.
:salute:

[Castout]

You just need to fire a spread of torpedoes to sink them.


But I found this impossible to be done for very small craft like subchaser because the torps went too deep even at minimum running depth.


They would explode other wise and I'd have bagged 3 of them.

[Bothersome]

DTT shots are for captains that don't have any concern for their crew's lives.

They are risky and the odds of winning are in the favor of the DDs. It *might* be in the favor of the sub if it's a DD far off coming on strong and not zigging. Then an attempt might be plausible.

I've done them in game when I was relatively new at playing it and they were a lot of fun to pull them off. Screaming "Who's d'man now!!"

My tactics now involve a lot of "get low and get fast." If they are pinging you, you can assume they know exactly where you are and can expect a bit of loud music to follow.

Full rudder is a sub killer. 25 degrees will turn the sub respectfully fast enough without slowing you down excessively. You just want to get off course of the attacking DD. If he's coming from behind, is the worst. You want to keep them going across you if they are attacking. Ahead flank for 20 to 30 seconds and then all stop and coast with very slight rudder. Drift out and away. Listen on the sonar for clues about where the DD is and which way it's heading. When it has it's baffles to you, slow ahead a bit then as it turns to where it can hear again all stop and drift.

If you're in shallow water, you may have to fight it out as a best option. I'd rather be at periscope depth than 70 meters any day. But I'd rather be at 200 meters than periscope if I had an option.

There is a way to "game the system" though. If you're in a convoy, and have enough sub speed to keep up with freighters or tankers, then you can get under one of those ships and they will not be able to attack you. You can even surface and shoot at them with the deck gun and they won't shoot back because they might hit their own convoy ship. Like I said, It's gaming the system. But it's kind of fun out smarting the AI just for hell of it one time or two.

[Marko]

what is the difference between a Y-gun and K-gun?

[Bubblehead1980]

DTT shots are for captains that don't have any concern for their crew's lives.

They are risky and the odds of winning are in the favor of the DDs. It *might* be in the favor of the sub if it's a DD far off coming on strong and not zigging. Then an attempt might be plausible.

I've done them in game when I was relatively new at playing it and they were a lot of fun to pull them off. Screaming "Who's d'man now!!"

My tactics now involve a lot of "get low and get fast." If they are pinging you, you can assume they know exactly where you are and can expect a bit of loud music to follow.

Full rudder is a sub killer. 25 degrees will turn the sub respectfully fast enough without slowing you down excessively. You just want to get off course of the attacking DD. If he's coming from behind, is the worst. You want to keep them going across you if they are attacking. Ahead flank for 20 to 30 seconds and then all stop and coast with very slight rudder. Drift out and away. Listen on the sonar for clues about where the DD is and which way it's heading. When it has it's baffles to you, slow ahead a bit then as it turns to where it can hear again all stop and drift.

If you're in shallow water, you may have to fight it out as a best option. I'd rather be at periscope depth than 70 meters any day. But I'd rather be at 200 meters than periscope if I had an option.

There is a way to "game the system" though. If you're in a convoy, and have enough sub speed to keep up with freighters or tankers, then you can get under one of those ships and they will not be able to attack you. You can even surface and shoot at them with the deck gun and they won't shoot back because they might hit their own convoy ship. Like I said, It's gaming the system. But it's kind of fun out smarting the AI just for hell of it one time or two.

Going to disagree the DTT is a shot for Captain's who don't care.The shot was often a desperation move.For example, the first to actually pull the shot off(others tried before) "Mush" Morthon, fired when they were on a recon of the harbor at Wewak, New Guinea, which was shallow.They missed their initial shots so went with the DTT shot which worked and saved them.They prob wouldnt have survived a depth charge attack in such shallow waters.

I used the shot usually when I had not other choice OR needed to knock off an escort(say if there were 3-4 and wanted a flank exposed for follow up attacks to make things easier for us) the DTT shot is more likely to work then the traditional shot on DD's in the game because they are tough to hit and get close to unless you have Mark 18 wakeless torpedos.They have the ability to accelerate super fast in the game, esp in the mods.Stock game they were easier to kill with traditional shot but not easy.Mods, its usually a waste of your fish.

You evasion tactics are basically what I use, glad you learned.

[Bothersome]

I should clarify that I wasn't refering to REAL captains. but the armchair variety like myself. :)

If a real captain had a reason to use it, I'm sure it was a good valid reason.

We on the sim, don't have real prices to pay, so we pull them off occasionally, not thinking of the crews lives on our sims.

Shallow, I know.

[Armistead]

what is the difference between a Y-gun and K-gun?

A Y gun basically is a double charge thrower. It's shaped like a Y and throws the charges out to the side. A K gun throws one charge to the side.

Some ships carry 6-8 Y gun's and can throw a wide pattern. Most ships that carry Y guns also have stern roll offs, just charges that roll off the back or drop off the sides, some also care double roll offs. So it you ever go up against a Matsu DD, it has 2 Y guns, 4 K guns and double roll offs, meaning you're in for a heck of a time. The Type AB has 6 Y guns and one stern roll off, so it can throw 12 charges to the sides with just the Y guns, add the roll off, about 16, a very hard pattern to escape.

However, both of these are in mods...

[Marko]

A Y gun basically is a double charge thrower. It's shaped like a Y and throws the charges out to the side. A K gun throws one charge to the side.

Some ships carry 6-8 Y gun's and can throw a wide pattern. Most ships that carry Y guns also have stern roll offs, just charges that roll off the back or drop off the sides, some also care double roll offs. So it you ever go up against a Matsu DD, it has 2 Y guns, 4 K guns and double roll offs, meaning you're in for a heck of a time. The Type AB has 6 Y guns and one stern roll off, so it can throw 12 charges to the sides with just the Y guns, add the roll off, about 16, a very hard pattern to escape.

However, both of these are in mods...


Oh tnx a lot. Indeed it is a very hard pattern to escape. Luckily i never encoutered them ehehheh

[torpedobait]

I'm no expert, Marko, but I believe a K gun fires a single DC 90 degrees to the DD's course (they might be able to rotate to different angles, but I don't know thatJ). A Y gun fires 2 DC at a time with a "spread" - one may be ahead and the other perpendicular. I'm really guessing at that, not having done research. Like I said, both fire DCs out to the side of the DD at varying ranges, but Y guns can fire off 2 at a time. Add in multiple Y guns on each side, and twin stern racks, and you are in for a noisy and deadly time.

Later in the war, I just try to stay out of their way unless I am cornered in shallow water.