Kenngruppen selection

[comet61]

I thought I read somewhere that the proper selection of the kenngruppen was what hour/part of the day it was? Of the 4 choices from left to right depending on what time of day it is such as from 0001 to 0600 first column and 0601-1200 2nd, 1201-1800 3rd and 1801-2400 4th. They change every six hours depending on the time stamp of the encoded message header....is that right? :hmmm:

[Thomen]

I thought I read somewhere that the proper selection of the kenngruppen was what hour/part of the day it was? Of the 4 choices from left to right depending on what time of day it is such as from 0001 to 0600 first column and 0601-1200 2nd, 1201-1800 3rd and 1801-2400 4th. They change every six hours depending on the time stamp of the encoded message header....is that right? :hmmm:

Never heard about that. :hmmm:

Guess, I will take a look. :up:

[Cambaz]

yes it is correct Comet61 :salute:

[Dragunov]

I believe I´ve read that also somewhere.
That the kenngruppen change every six hour.
But I also read that the way we now use the enigma is the "Wehrmacht way" of encryption.

A kriegmarine codebook would look like this,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Tag |UKW| Walzenlage | Ringstellung | Steckerverbindungen | Grund |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 30 | B | Beta V II VII | 09 16 04 08 | AP BN DX FI HL JZ KW MT QV SU | FDFP |
| 29 | B | Beta II III V | 06 14 25 07 | AO CE FK GL IS MU NQ PW RY VX | RTLL |
| 28 | B | Gam. IV V VIII | 15 07 08 09 | AN BI CH DF EU GO JM KX LS TV | ILCI |
| 27 | C | Gam. I VI V | 18 19 04 20 | AR CD EI FX JW KN LT OY QZ UV | LTYU |

but the encryption methode is much more elaborate.

But if we all can agree I beleive it is a good idea to use the 6 hour rotation.

[commandosolo2009]

I thought I read somewhere that the proper selection of the kenngruppen was what hour/part of the day it was? Of the 4 choices from left to right depending on what time of day it is such as from 0001 to 0600 first column and 0601-1200 2nd, 1201-1800 3rd and 1801-2400 4th. They change every six hours depending on the time stamp of the encoded message header....is that right? :hmmm:


Using todays date, choose ONE according to the time of your message :
The first between 00:00 and 05:59
The second between 06:00 and 11:59
The third between 12:00 and 17:59
The fourth between 18:00 and 23:59

[Thomen]

I believe I´ve read that also somewhere.
That the kenngruppen change every six hour.
But I also read that the way we now use the enigma is the "Wehrmacht way" of encryption.

A kriegmarine codebook would look like this,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Tag |UKW| Walzenlage | Ringstellung | Steckerverbindungen | Grund |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 30 | B | Beta V II VII | 09 16 04 08 | AP BN DX FI HL JZ KW MT QV SU | FDFP |
| 29 | B | Beta II III V | 06 14 25 07 | AO CE FK GL IS MU NQ PW RY VX | RTLL |
| 28 | B | Gam. IV V VIII | 15 07 08 09 | AN BI CH DF EU GO JM KX LS TV | ILCI |
| 27 | C | Gam. I VI V | 18 19 04 20 | AR CD EI FX JW KN LT OY QZ UV | LTYU |

but the encryption methode is much more elaborate.

But if we all can agree I beleive it is a good idea to use the 6 hour rotation.

Not sure if use the Army method, but we are still using a Kriegsmarine M3 Enigma. The codebook excerpt you posted is for a M4, which we use eventually. :salute:

[Dragunov]

The code I´ve created is what you get if you choose 3 rotor M3 Kriegsmarine.
If I choose M4 I the same layout :hmmm:
hmmmmm.....................
Strange.

Now you are right Thomen.
I´ve updated the codebooktool from v3 to v4

[Dragunov]

Not sure if use the Army method, but we are still using a Kriegsmarine M3 Enigma. The codebook excerpt you posted is for a M4, which we use eventually. :salute:

What I mean is that the way we encrypt is an army methode of encryption.
please see this page for an extensive explination;
http://users.telenet.be/d.rijmenants/en/enigmaproc.htm

[Thomen]

What I mean is that the way we encrypt is an army methode of encryption.
please see this page for an extensive explination;
http://users.telenet.be/d.rijmenants/en/enigmaproc.htm

Ahh ok. :up:

You are correct, that the procedure we use is closest to the Wehrmacht procedure, since it is by far the easiest to understand.

[Dragunov]

Ahh ok. :up:

You are correct, that the procedure we use is closest to the Wehrmacht procedure, since it is by far the easiest to understand.

I am currently in contact with the author of the site to see if I can get a copy of;
Kenngruppenheft
Kurzsignalenheft
Wetterkurzschlussel
Schlusseltafel M Algemein - Innere Einstellung
Schlusseltafel M Algemein - Aussere Einstellung

Perhaps then we can try if this works for us.

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Great teamwork. You guys have some good stuff here. Research it.

My only concern is will it be to hard to understand and chase recruits away??????

Ken:yeah:

[Dragunov]

do we want recruits who give up easily?
:hmmm: :03:

[The Enigma]

do we want recruits who give up easily?
:hmmm: :03:


Nope, but I think it is not such a bad idea to learn in stages.
First start learning coding and decoding using enigma, with just basic rules.

Next, when a novice has proven to know the concept,
a different set of coding/decoding rules could/should become mandatory,
such as choosing the kenngruppen depending on the time of the day.

Also, with stages, the right message format like weather reports and contacts reports,
should become mandatory.

[Dragunov]

Sounds like a plan.
:yeah:

[comet61]

Using todays date, choose ONE according to the time of your message :
The first between 00:00 and 05:59
The second between 06:00 and 11:59
The third between 12:00 and 17:59
The fourth between 18:00 and 23:59

Though this may be trivial; usually minutes of an hour start at xx:01 not xx:00. Normally in all time stamping 00 represents the 10th minute, whereas the 01 is the 1st minute. 0001 is the very 1st minute of the day and 0000 is the very last minute of the day.

Like I said may not make a difference by that 1 minute. Not sure how the Kriegsmarine in the RW set their counting of the hours.

So, I think perhaps we need a consensus on what starts where; xx:01 or xx:00. Personally, all hours should start at xx:01.

[The Enigma]

Though this may be trivial; usually minutes of an hour start at xx:01 not xx:00. Normally in all time stamping 00 represents the 10th minute, whereas the 01 is the 1st minute.

Never have seen that one.
00 means exactly 0 minutes.
So 12:00 means exactly twelve o'clock and not 10 minutes past twelve. :rock:


0001 is the very 1st minute of the day and 0000 is the very last minute of the day.

Where I live 00:59 is the last minute of the first hour past midnight.
23:59 would be the last minute of that day or saying it slightly different:
It would be one minute before midnight.
Midnight is 00:00 or like some prefer to use 24:00.


So, I think perhaps we need a consensus on what starts where; xx:01 or xx:00. Personally, all hours should start at xx:01.


Can you give an example when this situation occurs?
I use the 'in game time', never had a problem with that. :06:

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Oberleutenant Dragunov


Sie waren einst ein Rekrut einmal. Einige neuere Rekruten möglicherweise nicht so anpassungsfähig sein wie Sie. Wir müssen ihnen jede Gelegenheit, um succed.



Ken:hmmm:

[Dragunov]

Natürlich haben Sie recht Herr Commandant
Aber es ist nicht zu sagen, dass wir diese Art der Kodierung von Anfang an zu folgen haben.
Ich teile die meinung von "The Enigma" dass wir schrittweise das Ebene erhöhen kunnen.
Für den erfahrenen mitglieder selbstverständlich auf freiwilligen basis.
:oops:

[comet61]

Can you give an example when this situation occurs?Here's an example: Everyone thought that the 21st century started on Jan 1st 2000, when in fact it started on Jan 1st, 2001 at 00:01 (12:01 midnight).

Subject: 10 minutes or 00:10:00 aka 1/6 of an hour.

Timing clocks always start 00:00, but once started the 1st minute isn't until 00:01. Basically zero (0) represents 10 not zero, however, it can be backwards you count zero before the clock starts and the 10th digit is 9, but that isn't really done that way.

If you take your fist and count each finger (assuming you have them all) starting at 1 and when you get to the 10th finger say "zero", now do the same thing and start with the 1st finger and say zero and the last finger you count is 9. This why zero (0) is counted as the 10th minute not the 1st. One is always first not zero...it's last.


Maybe confusing. Just trying to make a point. This is really not a big deal because we're only talking about 1 minute here.



I got most of my info from here:

http://www.nist.gov/physlab/div847/faq.cfm

Interesting I did read is that is is somewhat "wise" to avoid time stamping at xx:59 or xx:00.....

[The Enigma]

Hi comet61,

I think it all depends where you live, or what logic you are used to follow.

In our country we start counting from 1 to 9.
The next number after 9 is 10 and not 0.
Even in math and computer logic we use it like this.
I can see what you are trying to explain though.

With my question for an example I was thinking of a situation in SHIII where
this might occur and become a problem.

As far as I can see (please correct me if I'm wrong), is this not an issue for coding/decoding messages.

[comet61]

The next number after 9 is 10 and not 0.

Of course it does. I am speaking of a clock not the numerical order. Like I said. Not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to make a point. I realize that there are different formats concerning how time is counted. :cool:

Now, back to the original subject:

Are we as Enigma encoders and decoders using the 6/hr rule concerning which Kenngruppen column we use? Or...are we just gonna select whichever? Just wondering....:06:

[Dragunov]

Gentlemen,

If I might post a sugestion.
I think it is safe to say that we can adopt these rules;

The first between 00:00 and 05:59
The second between 06:00 and 11:59
The third between 12:00 and 17:59
The fourth between 18:00 and 23:59

Just like the post by commandosolo2009.
Is this an idea?

[The Enigma]

Gentlemen,

If I might post a sugestion.
I think it is safe to say that we can adopt these rules;

The first between 00:00 and 05:59
The second between 06:00 and 11:59
The third between 12:00 and 17:59
The fourth between 18:00 and 23:59

Just like the post by commandosolo2009.
Is this an idea?


That's fine with me. :yep:

@comet61:
No hard feelings, just a discussion about erhmmm, clocks, time notation and such. ;)

I fail to see your point, but to me it's not that important.
I was just intrigued by your theory. :salute:

[comet61]

No hard feelings at all. Just as long as we have some sort of consensus on how to operate Enigma properly is all.


Personally, trying to explain via keyboard on subjects that can be too much in depth loses it's meaning quite easily. It looks good in my mind, but translating it to a forum can be a "lost cause". Besides, I guess the subject drifted off course...pun intended. :D


The above idea to use the 4 Kenngruppen codes at their designated times is fine with me.

[Thomen]

Good discussion.. :up:

Since this is minor a change, has virtually no operational influence on how one operates the enigma, and it makes no difference to the decoding party, I have no objections.

The only backdraft I can see is, that it limits the number of Kenngruppen actually usable to us. As far as I remember, the Enigma key is supposed to change at midnight GMT, that means many of us wont be able to use up to two Kenngruppen anymore, because of the different timezones.

But generally speaking, I am not against the idea. :salute:

[Dragunov]

Is it perhaps an idea that we use the time in the game at which we send the transmission?

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Keep me posted on what you decide as a group:up:

Ken

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Oberleutenant Dragunov

Was auch immer die Gruppe entscheidet. Ich bin ok mit mehr emerision.

Ich mag auch beobachten, wie sie interagieren, Jungs wie eine Flottille. Mild Diskussionen und manchmal unterschiedliche Meinungen bilden, sondern immer zusammen.

Ken

[Dragunov]

I think this is the way it should be done, right?
I don´t want to empose anything on anyone but I think this can contribute to the emersion.
(I am just one of the new guys so it is not my place)
So anyone who agrees can use the kengruppen this way.
Anyone who opposes simply ignores this.
Everyone ok with this?
Or should we poll what everyone prefers and then follow the majority?

[Thomen]

I think this is the way it should be done, right?
I don´t want to empose anything on anyone but I think this can contribute to the emersion.
(I am just one of the new guys so it is not my place)
So anyone who agrees can use the kengruppen this way.
Anyone who opposes simply ignores this.
Everyone ok with this?
Or should we poll what everyone prefers and then follow the majority?

Well, how long you have been a member shouldn't make a difference. =)

I do not think there will be poll necessary. Probly not but it is available.
We will ( approval by Staff pending) do it as you propose. :up:

Big props and points to you and comet! :salute:

BDU approves this posting. A PM was sent to Oberleutenant Dragunov telling him to do further research and present it to the Flotilla (sent prior to reading the last postings)

Ken