Cant get a grip of it.

[Funkyjazz]

Hello,
I want to appologize for the bad english.
Since a long time ive got SH4. Never played any subsim before SH4. Starting with the manual and the first lesson i had good hope that i could learn how to master
the depth of marine navigation. Two weeks ago i installed it again, only to be remebered why i stopped playing it a long time ago..

I've seen a lot of tutorials and i want to thank all people that did their best to make life easy for SH4 newbies!! But still, i dont get a grip on the game. Propably im to stupid to understand heading,course, realtive bearing, active bearing, heading and angle on bow.
Lesson 4: Attack Convoy and sink 1000 LBS of steel: full throttle dead ahead. Suddenly i hear: "Contact bearing 245 long range". Whoops...what should i do now?? And at that point, i never played SH 4 again. Why not?

Back to lesson 3: why is it a piece of cake? Cause its the ideal situation presented. A warship heading from left to right at a beautiful distance, only to master the TBT. I dont have to navigate, The sub is allready positioned at the best location. I only have to raise the scope, indentify, set distance speed ect. Do it a couple of times and hell yeah, i can do the TBT trick with any ship. But that is not the core business of SH4. The core business is to maneuver in a good postion on targets in long or short distance range. Plot the course without seeing them at all on the map. Getting close without being spotted by planes or warships. How do i do that? Which course should i plot? How fast should i go, can i ping a target if its guarded by warships at what range can i ping, ect ect. when to use the radar and how do i use it in which circumstances?
Im actually thinking of a sceneario wich places my sub and a ship add random in a 20 miles by 20 miles square. The only practice is to find the ship and sink it. Along with the hunt you are directed with good practical tips, how to do it, and most important why you should do it that way. That would be a perfect tutorial. After that you can choose to have more ships, guarded ships, with or without planes, give more or less size of the square. After mastering that tutorial you are ready for a campaign. Hopefully SH5 will include such submarine school.
Im tying and trying but i just cant master lesson 4 and i really want to play the game.

[ETR3(SS)]

My advice, if this is your first subsim, don't jump into it all the way. Start at a lower realism setting, get to know the game and how it works, and then move up to things like manual targeting.

[sergei]

Hang tight FunkyJazz.
I had just the same thoughts as you when I started playing. I needed a few basic intercept tutorials to practice on, but could not find any.
I've just started playing around with the mission editor, and I'll knock up a few basic missions for you.
Give me a couple of days.

[Funkyjazz]

Hang tight FunkyJazz.
I had just the same thoughts as you when I started playing. I needed a few basic intercept tutorials to practice on, but could not find any.
I've just started playing around with the mission editor, and I'll knock up a few basic missions for you.
Give me a couple of days.

That would be just fantastic! Meanwhile im just "racing around" in lesson 4, just to learn what are the do's and dont's.
Thanks Sergei!

[mobucks]

Like you said training mission 3 is a "perfect situation" so if you are getting hits in that i would try to place myself in that perfect situation whenever possible to engage the enemy. This is my first subsim as well, and im not afraid to say i save and reload alot still, ive only been playing for about 2 weeks, but ditched auto targeting and map updates after one patrol and am now on 92 realism (freecam) with TMO on patrol 8.

Keep in mind the laziest guy will find the easiest way to do the hardest job, i am that lazy guy. I don't plot intercepts, or do much math, because im lazy and dumb. I dont try to engage targets in fog/ pitch black, there are pleanty of ships in the sea and im still learning.

I usually use radar to find targets and get myself into position.

A contact is reported, i hit flank speed, go to radar.

Watching radar with time compression, you can get a good idea of how the target is moving. I usually start by turning so the contact is at 0. If his blip goes left, i turn into (ahead of) him left by 45 degrees, right i turn into him right 45 degrees. hit time compression after each time you finish turning your boat and analise how he is moving. he should be closing distance. The goal is to have him coming to you at either 270 (90 degree angle left) or 90 (90 degree angle right) by the time he is close enough to be on the 8.000 distance radar screen. keep watching how his blip moves and refine your course. If he is coming directly to you from a right angle, it is time to slow down and prepare to dive. I usually go to radar depth so i can keep viewing him on radar till he gets close to viewing range.

Once he is within the visual range of my periscope i make sure to dive to periscope depth and then its just waiting till he comes to me, the end goal being that its like im playing training mission 3.

For shooting torps, i use "Simplified manual targeting for 100% realism" guide on this site and it works. However i'd like to note, that guide has you taking speed/AOB readings using math (eek) so i ditched that in favor of:

Starting when he is within 20 degrees of 0 on my periscope:

1. Identify target with book, and send it to TDC.
2. Range using stadimeter, lining the waterline on the ships tallest mast, send to TDC, wait 10 seconds, do it again, send to TDC.
3. Go to speed control on TDC, since you have taken 2 seperate ranges 10 seconds apart, if you hit the little clock button next to send, a sailor will tell you the ships speed and heading. Send the speed it puts itself at to the TDC.
4. Go to nav map, zoom way in, using the protractor, draw a line from center of boat to 0 on the heading helper thingy around your boat, and with the tool helper on make the second leg of the angle line up to the course heading that the sailor reported when he told you the speed/heading. The angle drawn will be (close?) to the AOB you want to input.

5. Once i have the AOB, i usually repeat steps 2-3 over and over while he gets closer to 0 on my periscope. I dont trust the position keeper. You want reportings that are not changing wildly. If he was doing 8kts one time then 35kts the next time, dont hit send, take another range reading.

6. Keep doing that till he gets within a few degrees of 0 and then fire your torpedos.


EDIT: I never finished tutorial 4 myself, so im not sure if these guidelines help for that, this is just how i do things on a patrol.

[Funkyjazz]

Like you said training mission 3 is a "perfect situation" so if you are getting hits in that i would try to place myself in that perfect situation whenever possible to engage the enemy. This is my first subsim as well, and im not afraid to say i save and reload alot still, ive only been playing for about 2 weeks, but ditched auto targeting and map updates after one patrol and am now on 92 realism (freecam) with TMO on patrol 8.

Keep in mind the laziest guy will find the easiest way to do the hardest job, i am that lazy guy. I don't plot intercepts, or do much math, because im lazy and dumb. I dont try to engage targets in fog/ pitch black, there are pleanty of ships in the sea and im still learning.

I usually use radar to find targets and get myself into position.

A contact is reported, i hit flank speed, go to radar.

Watching radar with time compression, you can get a good idea of how the target is moving. I usually start by turning so the contact is at 0. If his blip goes left, i turn into (ahead of) him left by 45 degrees, right i turn into him right 45 degrees. hit time compression after each time you finish turning your boat and analise how he is moving. he should be closing distance. The goal is to have him coming to you at either 270 (90 degree angle left) or 90 (90 degree angle right) by the time he is close enough to be on the 8.000 distance radar screen. keep watching how his blip moves and refine your course. If he is coming directly to you from a right angle, it is time to slow down and prepare to dive. I usually go to radar depth so i can keep viewing him on radar till he gets close to viewing range.

Once he is within the visual range of my periscope i make sure to dive to periscope depth and then its just waiting till he comes to me, the end goal being that its like im playing training mission 3.

For shooting torps, i use "Simplified manual targeting for 100% realism" guide on this site and it works. However i'd like to note, that guide has you taking speed/AOB readings using math (eek) so i ditched that in favor of:

Starting when he is within 20 degrees of 0 on my periscope:

1. Identify target with book, and send it to TDC.
2. Range using stadimeter, lining the waterline on the ships tallest mast, send to TDC, wait 10 seconds, do it again, send to TDC.
3. Go to speed control on TDC, since you have taken 2 seperate ranges 10 seconds apart, if you hit the little clock button next to send, a sailor will tell you the ships speed and heading. Send the speed it puts itself at to the TDC.
4. Go to nav map, zoom way in, using the protractor, draw a line from center of boat to 0 on the heading helper thingy around your boat, and with the tool helper on make the second leg of the angle line up to the course heading that the sailor reported when he told you the speed/heading. The angle drawn will be (close?) to the AOB you want to input.

5. Once i have the AOB, i usually repeat steps 2-3 over and over while he gets closer to 0 on my periscope. I dont trust the position keeper. You want reportings that are not changing wildly. If he was doing 8kts one time then 35kts the next time, dont hit send, take another range reading.

6. Keep doing that till he gets within a few degrees of 0 and then fire your torpedos.


EDIT: I never finished tutorial 4 myself, so im not sure if these guidelines help for that, this is just how i do things on a patrol.

Thanks for the tips! Actually im thinking that i could handle 1 ship, maybe two: there is a difference in: to hunt or being hunted. My problem is comming close into enemy range without being spotted. In lesson 4 there are about 6 freighters. These are not the problem. Those warships makes it difficult for me because they hunt me down.

I will take your tips into regard and try them out later in the day (gotta go to work:damn:).

[magic452]

Welcome to the boat mate.

#4 is a real problem. See this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=159568

I would not even mess with it.

Start a war patrol, Wounded Bear or Hellcat. Don't worry about completing the mission. All you want to do is find a single ship.

You will have radar so just go to the Luzon Strait above the Philippines.
Just plot a zig zag course in the area between Manila and the strait.
You will find something soon. A single merchant is best for learning.

Once you make contact with radar turn towards the it. You will see that it seems to jump ahead. when it does start the stopwatch and mark it's position on the map with an X. Wait 3 minutes and mark it's new position.
Measure the distance between marks. You should get something like 900 yards more or less. This will give you the speed of the target. 1 knot of speed for each 100 yards, in the example 900 yd = 9 knots. I do this at least three times, that gives you a good reading of course and speed.

Next draw a line through the marks and extend it in the direction of travel.
This will give you it's course. You than can plot out an intercept course that will get you in a good firing position, ahead and to the side. Point your boat about 80 to 90° from the course line about 1000 yards away.

You have the target speed so all you need now is AoB and range/bearing. Since you have already done mission 3 you should have some experience doing this, You should be in about the same position. If you are using auto targeting all this is done for you.

Save the game when you first make contact and you can replay it and try out different methods.

This method works with escorted convoys as well, plot their course and set up an intercept the same way but you will want to be farther off the course line. you can either go deep and let the lead DD go by and than come up to PD and set up an attack or I most often just stay at PD and shoot from longer range. I approach the convoy at about 70° to get clearance from the flanking DD.

Mobucks method is a very good way of tracking and attacking if you have map contacts off.

Heading is just that the direction your boat is heading. if North your heading is 0° on the compass. Your coarse is from south to north
Turn 90° to a heading of 90°(east) and your course is from west to east.

Bearing is the direction to your contact. "Contact bearing 245 long range".
That means that the contact is 245° off your left side about 8:00 on a clock. your periscope is a bearing tool. 0/360° is the front of the boat, 12 o'clock. 3 o'clock is 90° to your left etc.

Hope all this helps.
Magic

[Funkyjazz]

Welcome to the boat mate.

#4 is a real problem. See this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=159568

I would not even mess with it.

Start a war patrol, Wounded Bear or Hellcat. Don't worry about completing the mission. All you want to do is find a single ship.

You will have radar so just go to the Luzon Strait above the Philippines.
Just plot a zig zag course in the area between Manila and the strait.
You will find something soon. A single merchant is best for learning.

Once you make contact with radar turn towards the it. You will see that it seems to jump ahead. when it does start the stopwatch and mark it's position on the map with an X. Wait 3 minutes and mark it's new position.
Measure the distance between marks. You should get something like 900 yards more or less. This will give you the speed of the target. 1 knot of speed for each 100 yards, in the example 900 yd = 9 knots. I do this at least three times, that gives you a good reading of course and speed.

Next draw a line through the marks and extend it in the direction of travel.
This will give you it's course. You than can plot out an intercept course that will get you in a good firing position, ahead and to the side. Point your boat about 80 to 90° from the course line about 1000 yards away.

You have the target speed so all you need now is AoB and range/bearing. Since you have already done mission 3 you should have some experience doing this, You should be in about the same position. If you are using auto targeting all this is done for you.

Save the game when you first make contact and you can replay it and try out different methods.

This method works with escorted convoys as well, plot their course and set up an intercept the same way but you will want to be farther off the course line. you can either go deep and let the lead DD go by and than come up to PD and set up an attack or I most often just stay at PD and shoot from longer range. I approach the convoy at about 70° to get clearance from the flanking DD.

Mobucks method is a very good way of tracking and attacking if you have map contacts off.

Heading is just that the direction your boat is heading. if North your heading is 0° on the compass. Your coarse is from south to north
Turn 90° to a heading of 90°(east) and your course is from west to east.

Bearing is the direction to your contact. "Contact bearing 245 long range".
That means that the contact is 245° off your left side about 8:00 on a clock. your periscope is a bearing tool. 0/360° is the front of the boat, 12 o'clock. 3 o'clock is 90° to your left etc.

Hope all this helps.
Magic

Thanks Magic! I followed the link and bumped into a tut, ive not seen before: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1020754&postcount=209

This is a good tut for newbies i think. Never understood the purpose of the "greenline rader". Now i know. Allthough i dont understand the distance scale. In the tut at the first mark the distance is about 18nm. While the range scale is somewhere between 300 and 450 (mx100).
Gonna play along in the campaign as you've said.

By the way...now i think about it. I understand the compass rose. When im heading exactly North and i would get a bearing, it would be no problem. But as i change course and again receive a bearing, then im confused. So the thing ive got to master is the bearing formula:
Subcourse (heading) + targetbearing = X. If X > 360, substract 360 = bearing target. I that correct?...im not good at math:oops:

[mobucks]

target bearing has nothing to do with north south east or west, it is the bearing in degrees off your bow. your bow is 0, your stern is 180, always, regardless what direction you are traveling.


so

"contact bearing 270" would be at 9 o clock if you were facing 0 (your bow)

the only time a sailor will tell you what direction the target is heading, is when you take 2 range readings in the perescope, and have them estimate their speed as i described above.

to summerize:

bearing= degrees off your bow

heading= direction in degrees target is traveling (0 is north, 90 is east, 180 south, 270 west)

the easiest way to look at an exact bearing is to go to the perescope or binoculars and look at the numbers at the top, they will change as you move the mouse left or right.

[Pisces]

By the way...now i think about it. I understand the compass rose. When im heading exactly North and i would get a bearing, it would be no problem. But as i change course and again receive a bearing, then im confused. So the thing ive got to master is the bearing formula:
Subcourse (heading) + targetbearing = X. If X > 360, substract 360 = bearing target. I that correct?...im not good at math:oops:Yes, correct. There are some handheld tools (or recreated in a program) created over the years that make it alot easier. But if you don't feel like DIY work then number-crunching is a must.

Some handheld tools:

(for SH3, so metric range)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114351

(manual for the above device)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126824

(boring looks but appropriate for SH4)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106923

Manual for the US type of whizwheel: (also contains links to the images to make it)
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attackfinder/index.htm

Some of the download links mentioned on the pages may be dead. It's been a while. Anyway the links to Rapidshare need a bit of patience. I got a warning that their servers are overburdened. If you can't get anything I'll try and upload them to my filefront page, if it isn't allready there.

These things make calculation very 'simple'.(multiplication/division on one side ONLY, adding/subtracting angles on the other side ONLY) You just need to know in which direction to spin those wheels and in what order. Magic, I tell you!

[EDIT] Here is another printable kind:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=153347

[EDIT 2] Here is the one made as a program:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=156698

[sergei]

Just thought, this is the very first video guide I found when I was all at sea trying to get a grip on this game.
Give it a go, it really helped me.
http://www.filefront.com/14286753/Legions_noob_guide.wmv/

[Funkyjazz]

Captains,

Its overwhelming to see the effort you put to help me out to master the game. As i understand, and as i first encounter in life, the forum is a tight community. That deserves a lot of respect!

Strong stuff....those Fisherman friends:cool:

Update: hell yeah, went to the warpatrol (never looked there before), went to open sea, searched and destroyed, with all knowledge you gave me. Here and there a peek with the outside cam but its going a lot smoother now and my got i love this game!!! Its just that i dont have enough time or else i would just play it realtime. The feeling to navigate the ship out of the harbor...b.e.a.utiful.

[sergei]

Excellent Funkyjazz.
Stick with it. There is no finer feeling than stalking a convoy, loosing off a salvo, sinking a load of ships, then slinking away whilst the escorts are depth charging another part of the sea clueless as to where you are.

[Pisces]

... That deserves a lot of respect!

Strong stuff....those Fisherman friends:cool:

...LOL. I wonder if that was an internationally aired commercial.

I guess it was .... http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fisherman%27s+friend&search_type=&aq=f

Best ever imho (dutch): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOvd4tv0ixo

[Laconic]

For the record, I think the third tutorial mission is pretty tough. It forces you to make all of your calculations and readings in a matter of seconds, and if you take too long, that Mogami is gone. Ideally you'd have everything set up by the time the target gets that close, and all you'd have left to do is push the red button.

[Funkyjazz]

LOL. I wonder if that was an internationally aired commercial.

I guess it was .... http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fisherman%27s+friend&search_type=&aq=f

Best ever imho (dutch): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOvd4tv0ixo

Didn't know either if it was a international com. Thought i could give it a try. The imho is the best indeed:salute:
===============

Back to mission 3: yeah, it is indeed a strange situation. For me it is good TDC training in combination with the Werne Sobe (thats his name right?), tutorial.

Okay guys, im going to sent some ship to the bottom of the ocean.

Catch ya on the flipside!