AI U-boat behavior

[GoldenRivet]

AI U-Boat essential capabilities

The AI U-boats, if included in final release, should be able to complete the following tasks IMHO.

A. Basic Operations
1. Must be able to cruise on the surface at historically accurate speed

2. Must be able to submerge to at least theoretical crush depth.

3. Must be able to maneuver while submerged at least as fast as the player u-boat, and remain submerged for at least as long as the player u-boat given consideration to limitations of Air and Batteries.

4. Must be able to crash dive in a time comparable to the player u-boat's crash dive time.

B. Combat maneuvers
1. Must be capable of surface zig zagging

2. Must be capable of "knuckle port" or "knuckle starboard"

3. must be capable of "double knuckle" port or starboard

4. must be capable of silent running

C. Weapon usage
1. Must be capable of firing the deck gun

2. Must be capable of firing the flak gun

3. Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced

4. Must be capable of firing torpedoes while submerged @ PD

D. Evasive Maneuvers While Surfaced
1. If detected by any armed enemy unit - I sub will dive to the deepest depth possible but not deeper than theoretical crush depth and not deeper than 10 meters above the sea floor.

2. If detected by an unarmed enemy unit - AI sub will attack with the deck gun until such time that it is detected by an armed enemy unit or the target is destroyed.

E. Evasive Maneuvers While Submerged
1. If detected by any armed enemy unit - AI sub will dive to the deepest depth possible but not deeper than theoretical crush depth and not deeper than 10 meters above the sea floor.

2. Upon reaching the desired depth, the AI U-Boat should use a speed setting of ahead slow with silent running enabled.

3. If depth charges are dropped, the AI U-boat should immediately commence any of the 4 basic "knuckle" turns via a roll dice logic.

4. Upon completion of the knuckle turn, ahead slow is resumed and - if equipped - a decoy is released.

in my personal and humble opinion.. if AI U-boats were coded with the above operating parameters... we would have some friends out there who at least pose a fighting chance

[THE_MASK]

If after playing SH5 you cannot tell the diffrence between player controlled uboat and AI uboat then that is the definition of AI .

[keltos01]

E. Evasive Maneuvers While Submerged

3. If depth charges are dropped, the AI U-boat should immediately commence any of the 4 basic "knuckle" turns via a roll dice logic.

4. Upon completion of the knuckle turn, ahead slow is resumed and - if equipped - a decoy is released.

in my personal and humble opinion.. if AI U-boats were coded with the above operating parameters... we would have some friends out there who at least pose a fighting chance

the decoy should be released before the knuckle turn so that DDs drop depth charges on empty ocean, otherwise you call them to your new position and help them by going super slow after decoy release !!!!!

just my 2 cents, I agree with all the above ! :up:

keltos

[GoldenRivet]

the decoy should be released before the knuckle turn so that DDs drop depth charges on empty ocean, otherwise you call them to your new position and help them by going super slow after decoy release !!!!!

just my 2 cents, I agree with all the above ! :up:

keltos

good point :up:

all i really want to ensure is that if we do get AI U-Boats... they dont just duel it out on the surface to the death.

rather pointless.

go back to Janes 688i - they had some fair AI subs in the game. which would vary course and speed and depth for given situations.

i see no reason these German U-boats couldnt do the same with some simple guidance in the form of a set of parameters.

in short... we all know that there will be a mortality rate for AI U-Boats... we just want to do what we can to keep that mortality rate somewhat lower than 100% LOL

[IanC]

That is asking way too much for AI U-boats. I'm not saying it can't be done, just saying it probably won't. I guarantee you won't see 75% of what you listed as 'essential capabilities'. (but for once, I hope I'm wrong)

[GoldenRivet]

That is asking way too much for AI U-boats. I'm not saying it can't be done, just saying it probably won't. I guarantee you won't see 75% of what you listed as 'essential capabilities'. (but for once, I hope I'm wrong)

I dont really see what is so difficult about it.

AI subs have been doing much better than that for 15+ years in similar subsims

[IanC]

Well, with a deadline ahead, I'm guessing the devs are not putting the emphasis on U-boat AI (do we even know if there'll be wolfpacks btw?). But I'm guessing it'll still be more realistic than AOD wolfpacks, just seriously doubting things like AI U-boat captains ordering silent running. :hmmm:
Prove me wrong devs, prove me wrong!

[GoldenRivet]

I hear ya.

all we know at this point is the fact that the devs specifically stated

[indirect quote] "There will be AI U-boats. Wolfpack mechanics are under consideration. This is something we always wanted to include in SH5 but we want to make sure they are implemented properly. Though wolfpacks are a goal of ours, there is question as to whether or not they can be included before release date."

something like that.

i think it is a promising statement however i also think it shows how they are prioritizing other things for inclusion.

I think SH5 will be a highly successful addition to the series.

that said... the development history of SH2, SH3 and SH4 have all gone as follows

SH2 released! "Sweet! Wolfpacks??? No.. Ok its cool."

SH3 released! "Awesome game... there are wolfpacks now right? no? oh."

SH4 Released! "U-boat missions ad on!! yay! i bet we have wolfpacks now right? no? damn!"

Silent Hunter 5?

on the one hand i see a pattern here... on the other hand i know the ubi devs want to make the players happy.

if there are not wolf packs in SHV i wont shed a single tear... i promise.

but i also think not including wolfpacks or in the very least... AI boats.. would be the one black mark on SH5 right out of the box.

[Kaleun_Endrass]

Wolfpacks in SHV would be a breakthrough in the series. It would be the first SH with wolfpacks at all... Hope it'll happen this time.

[IanC]

I hear ya.

all we know at this point is the fact that the devs specifically stated

[indirect quote] "There will be AI U-boats. Wolfpack mechanics are under consideration. This is something we always wanted to include in SH5 but we want to make sure they are implemented properly. Though wolfpacks are a goal of ours, there is question as to whether or not they can be included before release date."

something like that.


That's interesting, I din't know they said that! Well at least we won't be the only U-boat out there.

[GoldenRivet]

ian,

Check this out

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1121062387/m/8591082387

Community Q&A with devs

[PL_Andrev]

SH2 released! "Sweet! Wolfpacks??? No.. Ok its cool."

SH3 released! "Awesome game... there are wolfpacks now right? no? oh."

SH4 Released! "U-boat missions ad on!! yay! i bet we have wolfpacks now right? no? damn!"

Silent Hunter 5?

The most funny thing: the primitive wolfapack was implemented on very very old game: "Aces of the Deep"...
Meyby wolpack will be implemented... in add-on.
Or prepared by fans if possible by dev team of course.

[JU_88]

Am I the only one looking forward to having Enemy Sub encounters?
Since the neccesary AI is in there, we just need the modles, somthing modders can do if the devs dont have time.
Now to balance this the watch crew need to beable spot inbound torpedo wakes & periscopes. (technically as simple as implementing sensors for spotting a ship or aircraft -at X amount meters)

IF an AI sub managed to sneak up on you while you were surfaced and thow some eels your way - you would have split seconds to manouver your boat out of harms way.
That would so terrifiyingly awesome! :rock:
Something that will send REAL fear though your veins.

Before you scream in horror at the prospect of this being an unavoidable INSTA-Death.

Think!
In order to end up in the firing line of undetected Allied Sub, you'd have to be VERY unlucky indeed.
Like the Uboats Allied subs have to travel everywhere surfaced (so you will probably spot them before they dive), and they too were pain-staking slow while submerged.

So it would be theoretically very difficult for one to actually intercept you while you are surfaced (undetected) As you're are moving at twice their submerged speed.

[GoldenRivet]

there were 22 U-Boats sunk by allied subs.

20 of those were from torpedo impacts

1 was from a submarine laid mine

1 was from a combination of factors which an allied sub received partial credit.

presumably all of the attacking allied subs were submerged when the torpedoes were fired.

given the locations of the attacks... i would guess that about 50% of the sinkings took place because allied subs were submerged patrolling the waters outside of known German U-boat bases.

the other 50% were probably unluckily caught on the surface while in transit.

i would say that a realistic career in SH5 might see the skipper encountering one or two attack attempts by allies subs.

EDIT:

I agree this would be a neat fluke thing to see in game... and the pucker factor would be major.

however from a historical standpoint... Sub Vs. Sub action only accounted for about 2% of total U-Boat losses

[JU_88]

Doent matter if its only 2% , if the Ai is there, all we need is 3d models,
No matter if the Devs dont do it. I will personally see that some Models of UK subs are created and have them modded in.

The only work we need from the dev team -is those addtional 2 sensors for the watch crew (mentioned in my above post)
:up:

[Jimbuna]

Quite a shopping/wish list GT.....here's hoping http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[GoldenRivet]

i agree that the threat should be present.

however, i would hate to be attacked by a submerged allied sub on every port departure as well.

i have mixed feelings on the AI U-Boat attacks against the player.

most sub v sub attacks failed miserably.

I would like to have that experience in game... but like i said... i dont want it to be annoyingly repetitive or predictable.

i think that if a person went out on 10 patrols... they should perhaps be attacked twice and said attacks should always occur within about 100nm of port.

[JU_88]

i agree that the threat should be present.

however, i would hate to be attacked by a submerged allied sub on every port departure as well.

i have mixed feelings on the AI U-Boat attacks against the player.

most sub v sub attacks failed miserably.

I would like to have that experience in game... but like i said... i dont want it to be annoyingly repetitive or predictable.

i think that if a person went out on 10 patrols... they should perhaps be attacked twice and said attacks should always occur within about 100nm of port.


Freaquencey is purely down to how many Enemy subs are scripted in the campaign Layer and their location.
(plus you can set probablilty of prensence to something like 10%)
No sane person is going to script Brit subs to lurk around Biscay 24/7, maybe a dozen occurences spanning over the entire war - so it will be extremely rare.
Its ideal for the attcks to fail miserably, as it would be good for the scare factor.
As for predictablitly, I dont follow...
Why would it be any more or less predictable than the way a DD or an Aircraft attacks you?
Same meat different gravy.

[PL_Andrev]

AI U-Boat essential capabilities

The AI U-boats, if included in final release, should be able to complete the following tasks IMHO.

Convoy battles:
1. AI should control all ships in convoy, all warships attacked or not detected sumbamines and packs of submarines with tactics and thousand of values.

General map:
2. AI should control thousand of ships with enemy submarines...

All is correct... but not for realise.
We have not a supercomputers...
Sorry.
:rotfl2:

[JU_88]

Convoy battles:
1. AI should control all ships in convoy, all warships attacked or not detected sumbamines and packs of submarines with tactics and thousand of values.

General map:
2. AI should control thousand of ships with enemy submarines...

All is correct... but not for realise.
We have not a supercomputers...
Sorry.
:rotfl2:

huh? You lost me there, fella... :06:

[DarkFish]

huh? You lost me there, fella... :06:yup, me too. Why wouldn't it be realisable? Wouldn't it have pretty much the same inpact on cpu as the strategical units (e.g. the graf spee) have in stock UBM?

[JU_88]

Yes why a few people seem to think AI submarines / wolfpacks will require the processing power a super computer is totally beyond me.
This is not the 1970's! There is absolutley ZERO logic behind this argument.
Hell its not even a argument - just jibber jabber (sorry guys but its the truth):O:

[kemeri]

...

F. Sensors usage

1. Must be capable of using visual sensors

2. Must be capable of using hydrophone

3. Must be capable of using sonar

4. Must be capable of using radio (IN, OUT)

G. Logistic

1. Must be capable of estimating target type/treat level.

2. Must be capable of engage/evade target.

....

[Webster]

the list looks good and i think most of us agree with everything there but let me add a notation on part of it:

my opinions are from looking at this both ways, being attacked as well as wolfpack action which is how i think it has to be done in the game.

C. Weapon usage
1. Must be capable of firing the deck gun (but not have sniper accuracy with it)

2. Must be capable of firing the flak gun (but not have sniper accuracy with it)


3. Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced (i agree with having the ability but shouldnt the deck gun be the prefered weapon here until its disabled?)

4. Must be capable of firing torpedoes while submerged @ PD

#4 i think the submerged enemy subs (or all submerged AI subs) should have to stay at periscope depth and either have the scopes stay up or raise them every few minutes to let you have a better chance to detect them. i dont want it too easy but i dont want ot too hard either.

silent running can defeat your sonar and by having them stay at periscope depth it gives you the ability to correctly set your torpedo depths since just finding and hitting subs is going to be hard enough without the need for guessing the correct depth fo a sub that could be changing depth constantly.

[kemeri]

Is there any information how many U-boats were on patrol simultaneously (in average)?
For example, 25 June 1943 on patrol were .... U-boats.

Just interesting :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Is there any information how many U-boats were on patrol simultaneously (in average)?
For example, 25 June 1943 on patrol were .... U-boats.

Just interesting :hmmm:

On your stipulated date there were 96 U-boats on one kind of patrol or another http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/

[GoldenRivet]

the merchantmen used to say "There are more U-Boats in the water than there are sharks."

they were damn near right about that:o

[kemeri]

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4111/53279031.png

U-boats on patrol during the war.
Just for info.

[difool2]

If after playing SH5 you cannot tell the diffrence between player controlled uboat and AI uboat then that is the definition of AI .

The Turing test as applied to submarine AI. :know:

The book Das Boot indicated that Allied subs were a concern-heck they were convinced that the Brits knew the exact time of the U-boats' departure, thanks to spies in port and such.

[THE_MASK]

The Turing test as applied to submarine AI. :know:

The book Das Boot indicated that Allied subs were a concern-heck they were convinced that the Brits knew the exact time of the U-boats' departure, thanks to spies in port and such. Smarty pants :)

[haegemon]

"silent running can defeat your sonar and by having them stay at periscope depth it gives you the ability to correctly set your torpedo depths since just finding and hitting subs is going to be hard enough without the need for guessing the correct depth fo a sub that could be changing depth constantly"

A submarine wasn't an easy nor usual target for a submarine. In any case should be targetted while player is at periscope depth while the hostile is on the surface. Or while player is at pericope depth while hostile is engaging at pericope depth.


"Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced (i agree with having the ability but shouldnt the deck gun be the prefered weapon here until its disabled?)"

submarines on the surface could attack with torpedos during night to profit from the surprise effect and the dark.

An AI submarine, the same as player one, must be capable to discriminate enemies. Is diferent target a warship, a troop carrier, or target an enemy passenger liner, enemy refugees carrier, or enemy hospital ship.

(In the games there are 3 status: enemy, neutral and ally. All of them are related to the level of hostility with a country. The point is enemies also have civilian and "neutral" targets which shouldn't be harmed and should not give renown. I doubt HQ encouraged to sink these kind of ships on purpouse and officially. Soviets did in few ocassions.)

[Webster]

"silent running can defeat your sonar and by having them stay at periscope depth it gives you the ability to correctly set your torpedo depths since just finding and hitting subs is going to be hard enough without the need for guessing the correct depth fo a sub that could be changing depth constantly"

A submarine wasn't an easy nor usual target for a submarine. In any case should be targetted while player is at periscope depth while the hostile is on the surface. Or while player is at pericope depth while hostile is engaging at pericope depth.

what the proper strategy or aproach should be is not the same as the proper way to represent or have it modeled as the AI activity in the game.

what would work the best in the game is what i was talking about.



"Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced (i agree with having the ability but shouldnt the deck gun be the prefered weapon here until its disabled?)"

submarines on the surface could attack with torpedos during night to profit from the surprise effect and the dark.




well while this is certainly true, it was mainly only done against armed merchants or ships that could pose some threat to the submarine.

during the war there were very limited resources for germany and wasting torpedos when a deck gun used on the surface was able to do the same job was definately considered a waste of valuable resources and this is what i was refering to.

now in the case of another sub you would torpedo it because it can submerge to escape unlike surface ships so im guessing this was what you were refering to.

[haegemon]

I got your point, understood. :salute:

I was thinking in a documentary where the sumbarine carried a night (maybe sunset) attack with topedoes on surface, but it was against a convoy, to just after the impact sumerge before destroyers got move.