Gunnery and Campaign Questions

[Xxzard]

Hello all, first post on this forum, and I'd like to congratulate the Jutland team for making a game that really stands out as being playable and good looking at the same time. Now admittedly, I have seen better graphics, but the scale of events, number of ship classes, and general atmosphere is fantastic-- so bravo for that!

To the questions:
To what degree (if any) do the following effect gunnery accuracy?
-funnel smoke
-position of sun in sky
-nation-> is one side definitively better?

In my first campaign, as the British, I won a highly decisive series of naval battles early on, depriving the High Seas Fleet of almost everything but 16 remaining battleships. We have also captured far more shipping heading towards Germany than they have captured of ours. Its still early on in the campaign, but I'm somewhat wondering why the victory level tracker says German++ given the current situation. Do I have to fight to the end of the year to see a change in this level?

Thanks

[Raptor1]

Hello all, first post on this forum, and I'd like to congratulate the Jutland team for making a game that really stands out as being playable and good looking at the same time. Now admittedly, I have seen better graphics, but the scale of events, number of ship classes, and general atmosphere is fantastic-- so bravo for that!

To the questions:
To what degree (if any) do the following effect gunnery accuracy?
-funnel smoke
-position of sun in sky
-nation-> is one side definitively better?

In my first campaign, as the British, I won a highly decisive series of naval battles early on, depriving the High Seas Fleet of almost everything but 16 remaining battleships. We have also captured far more shipping heading towards Germany than they have captured of ours. Its still early on in the campaign, but I'm somewhat wondering why the victory level tracker says German++ given the current situation. Do I have to fight to the end of the year to see a change in this level?

Thanks

Funnel Smoke (Also all sorts of smoke) - Yes, IIRC Bullethead says the game makes an internal map of the smoke around the battle area and it would effect gunnery and ship sighting in the way.

Sun - Yes, would effect gunnery for the side looking at it. Also, if the sun is below the horizon and silhouettes the other side it will improve accuracy and sightings.

Nation - The Germans are generally more accurate. Though IIRC the British get better as the battle drags on.

That last bit about the campaign victory level is a known bug, it usually says the complete opposite of who's actually winning...

[Bullethead]

Hello all, first post on this forum

Welcome aboard! New guy buys the drinks :()1:

I think most of your questions have been answered, but if you want more details, speak up.

I'll elaborate a bit on the "is one side better?" though...

There are 2 options that have a HUGE effect on this. These are found at the top of the simulation controls menu and are called "Advanced Critical Hits" (ACHs). They default to the off position. If you turn them on, they make the British considerably weaker.

One of these ACHs gives British ships a 20% chance of blowing up if they receive a penetrating hit on a turret. There's a long discussion on why we think this is historically accurate over in the wiki, but as noted, you don't have to play with this turned on. Note that 1st off, it only affects ships with turrets (ACs and bigger). Second, the shell has to penetrate the turret armor, and then only 1 in 5 such penetrations cause the explosion.

If this option is turned off, ships of all sizes on both sides will still blow up periodically due to normal magazine critical hits. The above setting is an extra likelihood of explosion for British ships.

The other ACH makes certain types of AP shells fragile. This makes them very unlikely to penetrate heavy armor and makes penetrating even medium armor somewhat doubtful. It affects all British guns larger than 6", and also some old German guns that fire old-type shells. This really pulls the fangs of the big British guns. There's also a lot of discussion on why we think this is historically accurate, but again, you don't have to play this way.

Otherwise, the fleets have various strengths and weaknesses. In general, it's like this:
Germans:

Usually better damage control, so repair damage during battles more quickly than the British.
Capital ships are somewhat more accurate, especially at the start of battles.
Newer CLs have gun directors so can hit better at longer ranges then British CLs.
Significantly fewer of all types of ships.
Smaller guns and shorter ranges than their British equivalents.
Earlier dreadnoughts are slower than their British equivalents, so the HSF can't outrun the GF even without the predreadnoughts along.
Many ships and subs are capable of laying mines.
In the campaign, the Germans have the strategic burden of the offensive.
British:

Lots more of every type of ship.
About 1/2 of British capital ships have bigger guns with longer ranges than the entire German fleet.
Almost all British DDs have more and bigger guns than nearly all German DDs.
Bigger torpedoes with higher speed and longer range.
Lots of ACs, which have to stay clear of capital ships but completely own German light forces.
Very few minelayers.
In the campaign, can remain on the defensive.

[jdkbph]

You might also want to mention the Dreyer vs Argo Fire control system thing.... :)

[Xxzard]

Thanks for the explanations on the gunnery accuracy, especially on things such as smoke and sun, because I have noticed that before, but it was it was difficult to say for sure. I am glad that is as it was historically.

I also read somewhere that German rangefinders and directors were much better at quickly finding the range. On the other hand British employ more powerful rangefinders, but they were slower, so that is accurate.

For the campaign, I am playing with all historical options on, so I have experienced the woes of weak British shells and the tendency to blow up. In the decisive engagement against the German fleet, I engaged the German scouting forces in the morning, just before sunrise with both the British Grand Fleet and BC force. Losses were high, 5 BC's lost and 1 Super Dreadnought for the destruction of their 4 BC's, but With the sun coming up, I outnumbered their BB fleet significantly, so they began to retreat. There the slowness of their old pre-dreadnoughts was devastating, as all seven were destroyed for the loss of one 12inch BB.

I would also agree with the assesment about the AC's, with the German BC's destroyed in that battle, British AC's are running free and have been
obliterating remaining enemy light forces.

One more question: do AV's have any special ability modeled in the game or are they there for historical accuracy only?

[MoToM]

Just for accuracy, plus they seriously slow down your fleets campaign map speed.

[Raptor1]

One more question: do AV's have any special ability modeled in the game or are they there for historical accuracy only?

I don't think so. I thought that maybe they have a higher sighting range on the campaign map but Bullethead will have to comment on that.

[Bullethead]

I don't think so. I thought that maybe they have a higher sighting range on the campaign map but Bullethead will have to comment on that.

I honestly don't know. When it became evident that we weren't going to get launchable airplanes into the game directly, there was some talk of AVs increasing the daylight spotting range of their TFs on the campaign map. However, I don't know what, if anything, Norm did along those lines. So you'd have to ask him.

[Bullethead]

You might also want to mention the Dreyer vs Argo Fire control system thing.... :)

Well, that's of essentially no consequence in WW1. All the Brits except Queen Mary had Dreyer stuff, and all the Germans had Dreyer-type stuff.

What this all boils down to in game terms is that Queen Mary, alone amongst the initial Brit BCs, shoots as well as the Brit BBs, while the other initial Brit BCs' accuracy sucks compared to both Brit BBs and all the Germans. "Refit" and "Repair", when they arrive late in 1916, also shoot as well as Brit BBs.

[jdkbph]

Hmmm... last I recall it had been established with overwhelming empirical evidence that, in game terms, the Argo system was far superior to the Dreyer system... such that a Dreyer equipped Brit BB, even one of equal or greater firepower and tactical position, was at a distinct disadvantage to any FC equipped German BB.

I also recall that this, according to SES, was absolutely the way it was and therefore the way the game was designed.

Are you saying now that this has been "adjusted"?

And yes... I am curious for good reason. If this has been fixed it may just make this game playable (IMH and Uninformed O of course).

[Bullethead]

Hmmm... last I recall it had been established with overwhelming empirical evidence that, in game terms, the Argo system was far superior to the Dreyer system... such that a Dreyer equipped Brit BB, even one of equal or greater firepower and tactical position, was at a distinct disadvantage to any FC equipped German BB.

You seem to have misunderstood.

Everybody on both sides (except Queen Mary) uses a Dreyer-type system. That was the standard type of fire control system in WW1. It was, of course, only called a "Dreyer Table" in the RN, but everybody's gear was directly analogous. However, it's limits were known and by late WW1, Pollen-type systems were becoming seen as necessary, so that everybody switched to Pollen-type systems shortly after WW1. Pollen-type systems were thus standard by WW2.

Because everybody uses a Dreyer-type system, you don't have the situation you describe, of Dreyer-equipped ships being hosed by "Argo-equipped" ships. The differences in gunnery in Jutland are due to different training standards, different types of rangefinders, and ship design, etc. This is what makes Germans get on target faster and shoot slightly better than RN BBs, and why RN BCs (except Queen Mary) can't shoot very well. Neither can ships with funnels ahead of the foremast, or too few guns for adequate spotting.

I also recall that this, according to SES, was absolutely the way it was and therefore the way the game was designed.

Yup.

Are you saying now that this has been "adjusted"?

And yes... I am curious for good reason. If this has been fixed it may just make this game playable (IMH and Uninformed O of course).

I think rather that you're misinformed. The "problem" you mention doesn't exist and never has. All the various categories of ships mentioned above shoot very close to their historical averages over the long run, but for short periods can shoot rather worse or better, which is realistic because that also happened.

[jdkbph]

DELETE DELETE DELETE


OK I give up. It's your game... you win.

[Bullethead]

DELETE DELETE DELETE


OK I give up. It's your game... you win.

Now don't go away mad. We've been friends longer than I care to remember.

Seriously, just because we're somehow not communicating here doesn't mean you don't have a legit gripe. We've never said the game is perfect.

But it's obvious we're talking past each other, or not speaking the same language, or whatever. So what, specifically, in game terms, do you have a problem with? Until I even know what you're mad about, how the Hell do you expect me to answer your question?

[Trygvasson]

AT LAST a game that explores a chapter in the history of warfare with an absolutely massive amount of what-if's - and with the greatest possible broadside weight ever. These ships, these BEAUTIFUL, loved and cherished creatures of uncompromising destruction have been my keen interest since the days of GNB5.

I sincerely thank the Gods Above, aka the Programmers, for not making this into an 'action-packed FPS' or some other stupid marketing idea. Historically accurate to the point of including brittle AP shells and the like. One would always like more, of course, but that's what wishlists are for.

Phew! Now, down to the nitty gritty:
1. It seems the ships stop accumulating damage after they've reached 'sinking' status - I had half the Hochseeflotte blasting away point blank at a destroyer for 12 minutes, and it still stubbornly took all that time to sink. This is a major problem for me since (as well they should) my fleet keeps targeting the ship until she's well and truly gone.
2. More info! Range circles for primary/secondary guns, visual detection ranges, starshell ranges, torpedo ranges, acceleration rates(aren't they a bit quick?!), armor penetration/distance - and that's only what I can't stop thinking about!
3. I find myself micromanaging division speed a lot. I know a LOT has been accomplished regarding fleet maneuvers, and it's a real joy to behold as I create chaos from order - and then back to order - but why a division would want to keep sailing at 4kts after the ship that slowed them down has sunk, I don't know.

That's it for now - will provide some AAR's when I get some more experience. I'm still on Jan 5th, and already the Harwich Force is destroyed, and I've had an inconclusive meeting with Fisher's favourites...

[Xxzard]

The only way a sinking ship goes down faster is a magazine explosion, to my understanding. You can order the ships to cease fire, but all locally controlled guns will continue to fire.

The weather report shows visibility, and visual detection is I suppose automatic at that range. You can check the torpedo range by taking a look at the ship status report/menu thing and selecting one of the torpedo launchers. One problem I have noticed is that it seems when ships are near the edge of short/long range settings, the torpedos are launched on short setting and run out of 'gas' before reaching the target, when launching on long range would have assured at least reaching the target.

Getting a large fleet to behave in an orderly, no, even reasonable way can be difficult. It is something of a gripe with the game that the ships aren't somewhat more intuitive about that. No ships have any individual initiative except for avoiding torps and collisions (which is actually a good feature) although that itself can lead to big organizational problems.

All in all I think the control scheme is OK though, once you get to know it.

[Bullethead]

[
I sincerely thank the Gods Above

You're welcome.

1. It seems the ships stop accumulating damage after they've reached 'sinking' status

It sometimes seems that way, but it's really not true. You can reduce the sinking time for ships by continuing to fire at them. However, it usually takes something significant to make a real difference. A few more shellholes on the waterline more or less don't really change anything. What you need is either a lot more water coming in (like from a torpedo hole) or rather less going out (like by doing more propulsion damge).

That said, however, ships get lower in the water as they flood, which brings shell holes and ruined watertight integrity that were previously harmless down to where the water is. Thus, as ships settle, they often suddenly start sinking much faster as more holes reach water level.

2. More info! Range circles for primary/secondary guns, visual detection ranges, starshell ranges, torpedo ranges, acceleration rates(aren't they a bit quick?!), armor penetration/distance - and that's only what I can't stop thinking about!

The visibilty range, plus whether it's increasing or decreasing, is shown on the weather report button. However, that's a complicated subject (see my answer to XXzard infra).

The ship information screens give you the ranges, rates of fire, and a buch of other stuff for all the weapons. Just mouse over one of the colored dots and the text at the bottom of the screen changes from being about the ship as a whole to being about that weapon.

but why a division would want to keep sailing at 4kts after the ship that slowed them down has sunk, I don't know.

I agree, this is something we could improve. Send in a bug report on it, but change its message type to SUGGESTION.

The weather report shows visibility, and visual detection is I suppose automatic at that range.

Actually, the visual range is very dynamic and variable. The range shown on the weather report is the maximum possible for the time of day and weather conditions, but without taking any specific situational modifiers into account.

As mentioned in another thread, there's a "smoke map" keeping track of lingering smoke long after we've had to remove its graphics in the interests of keeping your computer running. Thus, the LOS in different directions can be stopped by clots of smog at different ranges. The same thing applies to rain and fog, which are not uniform over the battlespace but occur in patches of varying density.

The length of the LOS usually is not the same in both directions between 2 given ships, even though the factors above are the same for both. This is because bigger ships are easier to see than small ships. Same for ships on fire, firing, using searchlights, or under a starshell. However, ships that are hugging a coastline at night are rather hard to see from seeward. Then, of course, there are the effects of the sun and moon, which are very directional.

On top of all this, even if everything above is the same for both ships, visibility isn't an all-or-nothing thing, where you can see out to a given range perfectly and then hit a wall. Instead, the chance of spotting something tapers off to zero at max possible range. This means that spotting a ship out near the max visibility range is a matter of chance, and 1 ship might do it before the other.

Anyway, all this is why sometimes you'll see a further ship before you see a closer ship. Also, sometimes you know a ship is there, but can't see it well enough to shoot at it. This is why you'll sometimes see a ship appear on the water but when you try to target it, it says it's not visible to any of your ships.

The presentation of all this is could perhaps be improved, say like how Combat Mission does FOW. Send in a suggestion on it.

[Trygvasson]

Thanks for your answers Bullet, appreciate it. On the subject of ship sinking time, I based my statement on in-game testing, so I must admit I'm surprised. I'll take your statement at face value - and do some more testing to convince the more stubborn part of my brain. The US Ship Pack battle is actually an ideal test scenario - one poor minelayer getting hammered by several super-dreds. I'm sure I'll find you're right, eventually.

Visibility: I guess it's an old-timer's habit to think in absolute visibility ranges as far as computer simulations are concerned. Dynamic spotting ranges and chances are much better, of course, as this is much closer to the real thing.

Gunnery: my problem is that I find it hard to visually judge the range on the battlespace. I'd really like a line in the sea telling me how far my ships can fire. But I guess that's OT in this thread. On topic: how much is accuracy affected by number of ships firing at it? I just fought a destroyer battle with about 20 DD's on each side, managing to cross the T of the enemy line and staying there as he tried to close for about 15 minutes. For the start of the battle I simply let my ships target the nearest ship, i.e. the lead ship of the enemy line, but seeing the spread of shot was so great I started spreading out the fire by micromanaging ship targets. What goes on under this part of the hood? And can you take the hood off, please :D ?

[Trygvasson]

Another couple of things, from the Campaign:
- any way I can find info on approximate repair times?
- what happens if I assign more tonnage than a port can supply?
- since I can't assign repair priorities myself, how does the program do it?

[Bullethead]

Visibility: I guess it's an old-timer's habit to think in absolute visibility ranges as far as computer simulations are concerned. Dynamic spotting ranges and chances are much better, of course, as this is much closer to the real thing.

Yes, it's pretty realistic. The problem is, it's pretty much impossible to depict it visually for the players.

Gunnery: my problem is that I find it hard to visually judge the range on the battlespace. I'd really like a line in the sea telling me how far my ships can fire.

On the minimap, each ship and shore battery has a circle drawn around it indicating its maximum range. You can also read the exact maximum range for any weapon by mousing over it on the Ship Information Screen.

You can also take direct measurments in the game yourself. Select one of your ships, then move the mouse wherever you want it, on the water or over another ship. White text at the bottom of the screen will tell you the distance between the selected ship and the mouse cursor.

On topic: how much is accuracy affected by number of ships firing at it?

This only makes a real difference at longer ranges were accurate splash spotting was required. IIRC, this is about 5km in the game. Inside that, the number of ships firing at the same target doesn't really matter. Beyond that, however, only 2 ships can fire at the same target without penalty. Once you get 3 or more ships involved, nobody can tell which splashes are theirs and all of them suffer a large accuracy penalty.

Another couple of things, from the Campaign:
- any way I can find info on approximate repair times?
- what happens if I assign more tonnage than a port can supply?
- since I can't assign repair priorities myself, how does the program do it?

There's nothing I know of that tells you how long a ship will take to repair. In general, the time to repair a destroyed weapon is a function of its size. DD-size guns are usually repaired in a day or 2, but BB main guns might take a few weeks. Hull damage is usually repaired faster than propulsion damage, etc.

I think all ships are repaired simultaneously and independently. IOW, there's no priority to worry about.

I don't think you're able to base more tonnage at a facility than it will hold. If you're able to, then it's a bug you should report.

[alexsmith]

this is about 5km in the game.
Is it also true for DG or just for Jutland? No doubt it's difficult to play if manual or faq operates terms like "distance where director is necessary" - too damn wanted to know exactly - WHAT distance :)

[Xxzard]

Aha, the information on the splash rule is very helpful, as in a few fleet battles I have seen gunfire become more accurate almost instantly when the single enemy ship all fire was concentrated on went down and my ships switched to new targets. In fact, in one battle, once the ships switched target to different enemy ships I got two lucky hits on turrets in quick succession that caused magazine explosions-- especially surprising as I was playing the British!

Meanwhile, focusing fire on one ship with the whole might of the Grand Fleet is spectacular, and will work eventually, but not as quickly as one would hope because of the dramatic falloff in accuracy.

Good to know!

[alexsmith]

You mean - switching target increase accuracy? :) Sorry, didn't get it

[Raptor1]

You mean - switching target increase accuracy? :) Sorry, didn't get it

No, if too many ships are aiming at one ship it reduces accuracy because ships can't distinguish their splashes, so when that one target went down and his ships switched to different targets, accuracy increased.

[feld]

You mean - switching target increase accuracy? :) Sorry, didn't get it

Been reading about this in Jon Sumida's In Defense of Naval Supremacy (great history of Dreadnought and Royal Navy fire control in the early 1900s - among other things). One method of aiming guns was to salvo fire one gun of each turret, have a spotter in the tops look where the splashes were, and then reset the guns until the splash pattern was centered on the enemy ship. That way, they thought that they could be sure that they were getting a few hits.

Not entirely sure how the Japanese and Russians did it in the RJW...don't know if they were using salvo fire from their main turrets or not.

r/
feld

[rubberboot]

I'm wondering about the victory conditions.... I'm 15 days in on a 1 year campaign (as the Germans) and It's currently British++. At the beginning it was German+. I've destroyed about 70 ships of their light forces which included 11 cruisers, and lost about 25 destroyers, 1 cruiser (at night, grrr) and 20 TB's (no loss there...German TB's are JUNK). They have captured about 12 freighters. I've captured 1. Is the victory conditions have to do with freighter capture only? If that's the case, I will need to destroy the bloody AC's at Lerwick!! They're killing me. Also, when do the Americans actually join on the German side in the game, as I am playing that alt reality scenario? If they join later in the year, why have them at all....:hmmm:

[MoToM]

Its a bug, shows the exact opposite of the truth.

SES know of it but as nearly everyone else does too they are in no rush to fix.

[Admiral Von Gerlach]

re the Imperial Russian Navy here is the best book for that info

Russian and Soviet Battleships by Stephen McLaughlin, Naval Institute Press, 2003


http://openlibrary.org/b/OL22568554M/Russian-and-Soviet-battleships

re the Imperial Japanese Fleet, they used british tactics as that was where all their officers were trained so the salvo of singles from each turrent that would bear applies to them too.

[alexsmith]

re the Imperial Japanese Fleet, they used british tactics as that was where all their officers were trained so the salvo of singles from each turrent that would bear applies to them too.
Seems to be quite correct. Also during examining several sources I found a mentions which could indicate - Russians used similar tactics. There were a very common tactic of ajustment fire - I found detailed description of it in some artillery study-book. Undortunately DG seems not to use any kind of adjustment fire - at least it looks like it doesn't. As for often mentioned circles of shells explosion instead of ellipses also...

Seems like DG is considering very many secondary factors - and freely skip some major... IMHO

[Bullethead]

Undortunately neither DG nor Jutland uses any kind of adjustment fire - at least it looks like they don't. As for often mentioned circles of shells explosion instead of ellipses also...

Dude, haven't you played Jutland at all? Most ships with directors fire 1 gun per turret and you can see them adjust onto the target.

I would greatly appreciate it if you refrained from making so many false accusations about my product.

[alexsmith]

Sorry, Dude! Don't know about Jutland - wrong.