It's All About Community

[Graf Paper]

The following is an editorial. It's views and opinions are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of others mentioned herein or the administration of Subsim.com and ComSubsPac.

I've been a part of Subsim.com for a few years now. I feel at least as much attachment and fondness for this "grand old lady" of the submarine simulation scene as many here have and still do.

Recently, Neal Stevens took on myself and owner to be the new moderators of the Silent Hunter Multiplayer sub-forum here at the Radioroom. This move was done to give a greater voice to a renewed and growing multiplayer interest in the hopes that it would flourish far beyond what it has in the past. ComSubsPac has played a large part in this revival. Neal recognizes this achievement and respects the people involved. His appreciation and trust were not given lightly. He saw in ComSubsPac a great love and enthusiasm for Silent Hunter along with a deep dedication on the part of its administrators and members to their community, much like his own feelings that led to the founding and longevity of Subsim.

Recently, it has come to my attention that there are those who mutter in back rooms about ComSubsPac being "spammed" around. I know that every crowd has its malcontents and nay-sayers but I feel the record should be set straight before their insinuations come to be regarded as gospel among the rest. As the old saying goes, "If you shout a lie long enough and loudly, people will come to believe it as the truth."

I haven't noticed any members at ComSubsPac crying about Subsim and other organizations being "spammed" about despite the fact that we actively promote those communities over there with banners in member sigs as well as directing new members here with the recommendation that Subsim.com is the best resource for anyone new to Silent Hunter and the scores of mods available. There's also hosting the community-wide monthly meeting jointly with Subsim.com, using TeamSpeak as the platform, so all fans of sub simulations can actually talk with those who have shaped the face of the community scene and bring everyone together in a more personal and immediate fashion than mere text on a screen can achieve.
( Yes, you are required to register at ComSubsPac but only for reasons of security and community integrity by preventing unknown persons from crashing the party, both literally and figuratively. )

You might take a look at the forums over at ComSubsPac and judge that we are of no consequence because there is so little activity. You couldn't be farther from the truth but that is forgivable when you only have a partial view and are used to typing your words here in the Radioroom. At least 95% of our activity and communication is done through TeamSpeak. Why post something when you've just finished talking about it live with fellow members? The ComSubsPac forums only serve as an addendum. Neal knows this and that is why he says what he needs to say personally and live, not with text, when he visits.

Subsim has a long history of promoting many groups. This includes other communities, mod groups, and even games that lie outside the sub simulation genre. Just to name a few, where would GWX, WAC, NYGM, SubClub, and numerous flotillas be without Subsim there to serve as a platform that has offered the courtesy of giving them a voice and an audience?

ComSubsPac adheres to this same philosophy. At least it always will on my watch! When a new member logs in to our TeamSpeak server, he is encouraged to adopt GWX for SH3 as we feel it has the best to offer for multiplayer just as Trigger Maru is our preferred mod for SH4 multiplayer, at this time. However, we do not discourage members from exploring other mods and actively help them when doing so. ComSubsPac is also open to games other than the Silent Hunter series when there is enough demand. We currently have a small but growing fan base for Dangerous Waters and provide a permanent channel on our TeamSpeak for them. Members are encouraged to take part in other sub simulation communties, not just for the sake of promoting ComSubsPac but for the betterment of the community in general by engaging all fans with the same enthusiasm and interest, to give more energy and activity so everyone will benefit by gaining notice from game publishers that the sub simulation community is alive and well.

Aside from the rather obvious fact that any and all multiplayer groups/flotillas/societies/cults/parties/communities are free to promote themselves here in the Multiplayer sub-forums, it seems some are missing a rather salient point. Subsim.com and ComSubsPac are working together, not just for each others' own good, but the good of the entire sub simulator community. You see, Neal loves the whole community, just the same as owner and myself. He's a member in full and good standing at ComSubsPac, with all the privileges and obligations thereof, just the same as I am here at Subsim. How can partners be accused of subversion and spam by cross-promoting each other to raise awareness and encourage growth?

Submarine simulations have never been the best selling of genres, especially when stacked up against flight sims, first-person shooters and today's much more profitable MMOs. Blizzard still rakes in more money with World of Warcraft than many governments have in their entire national budgets! There was a time when you could walk into any store that sold computer games and find several sub simulation titles on the shelves like Silent Hunter, Sub Command, Silent Service, Red Storm Rising, and Aces Of The Deep. Today, that number has dwindled to nearly nothing. To my knowledge, when Silent Hunter 5 is released it will be the only new sub simulation game sitting on retail shelves since the release of SH4.

A vital, open, and united community can change that by all of its parts working together. Turf battles, personal egos, pride, and avarice serves no purpose other than to guarantee our splintering, stagnation, and becoming relegated to the minor fringes, beneath the notice of any game publisher. Together we are far stronger than our constituent parts. That is why Subsim and ComSubsPac have teamed up, as an example to all the other communities in the hope that they will follow suit. We should work as a complement to each other, not adversaries.

It's all about Community, folks.

[Rebel]

IT A LOT TO READ , BUT IT DOES READ TRUE :yeah:

[FIREWALL]

@ Graf Paper

This makes sense on so many levels. :up: :salute:

Every word was well worth reading. :yep:

[Wolfling04]

Very well said and very true. :yeah: so sad though that subsim games have dwindled so much over time

[coreykill]

wonderful post there mate and true to the point as always your absolutely right if we want to see our future as sub-simmers continue we cant be rended apart by the little things we need to rise above anything that might get in our way of showing the game developers theres still a huge and growing community of people who love this genre, and there is some serious big bucks to be made if they choose to invest the time and money in continuing the sub simulation genre and publish more games.
but they certinly wont unless they see a mass growing community and demand for such a thing. so come on guys we need to work together here as a good friend of mine from com-subs-pac would say
its all for THE GREATER GOOD!

[Sailor Steve]

I'll take the opposite and negative view, just for fun.

I have no interest in co-op multiplayer, but I do miss the old SH2/DC days. But everybody has their own likes and dislikes, and that includes food, women, sports and of course gameplay. I wish you guys all the best.

That said, when someone talks about "spamming" I immediately think of Owner's seeming inability to post about anything on any thread without dropping a reference to "you-know-what". Pushing an agenda, or a gaming group, is fine, but it does get annoying and old after awhile.

But that's just me, and it is your right to plug away all you want. Just don't get too hostile when every so often someone says they're tired of hearing it.

[FIREWALL]

I'll take the opposite and negative view, just for fun.

I have no interest in co-op multiplayer, but I do miss the old SH2/DC days. But everybody has their own likes and dislikes, and that includes food, women, sports and of course gameplay. I wish you guys all the best.

That said, when someone talks about "spamming" I immediately think of Owner's seeming inability to post about anything on any thread without dropping a reference to "you-know-what". Pushing an agenda, or a gaming group, is fine, but it does get annoying and old after awhile.

But that's just me, and it is your right to plug away all you want. Just don't get too hostile when every so often someone says they're tired of hearing it.

I hope you remember that last paragraph, Steve.
It works both ways.:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

What are you tired of hearing from me? Rather than argue I'll try to stop.

[XonE:32]

I'll take the befuddled yet impressed view.

I'm really impressed by your post Graf. Whatever you're on about it was eloquently put. I'm just befuddled (natural state for for me) as to the controversy to which you refer as I'm new to SH4 yet my sub sim (not SUBSIM) days harken back to the 80's with Silent Service on my Apple II+. I don't what "spammed about" means etc. BUT (and this is important), that is by NO means an invitation for someone to explain it to me and have this thread subsequently hijacked.

I can do searches on my own to find out what you're referring to. Or if your inclined feel free to PM me although by the sound of it you have much more important issues going on.

Either way, the main point still stands... Well said.


Regards,

XonE:32

[owner20071963]

I'll take the opposite and negative view, just for fun.

I have no interest in co-op multiplayer, but I do miss the old SH2/DC days. But everybody has their own likes and dislikes, and that includes food, women, sports and of course gameplay. I wish you guys all the best.

That said, when someone talks about "spamming" I immediately think of Owner's seeming inability to post about anything on any thread without dropping a reference to "you-know-what". Pushing an agenda, or a gaming group, is fine, but it does get annoying and old after awhile.

But that's just me, and it is your right to plug away all you want. Just don't get too hostile when every so often someone says they're tired of hearing it.

Taking a Negative View on this Post,
Fun Or Not,
Degrades Subsim for what it stands for,
A Community,
Sailor Steve you Sir have not played Multiplay?
That is your choice,
Maybe you never went to a Multiplay Site,
like ComSubsPac,
Live on TeamSpeak,
And hunt with others,
So you think Promoting Multiplay in My Posts is Spam?
Helping new Players?:hmmm::hmmm:
Neal Himself would disagree with You,
May I ask you Sir?
are you with the Subsim Community and what it stands for?
This post by GrafPaper is the Best post here on Subsim
for a long time,
It is a Constructive Post,
For the Community here on Subsim.

[dogboat]

What is the sub-simulator community, without encourage growth cross-promoting. all of the community working together,the greater good, the game!!!!:cool:

[Rockin Robbins]

Recently, it has come to my attention that there are those who mutter in back rooms about ComSubsPac being "spammed" around. I know that every crowd has its malcontents and nay-sayers but I feel the record should be set straight before their insinuations come to be regarded as gospel among the rest.

A fine idea. And I'll not "mutter in back rooms" (violation of Subsim policy on disparaging other members) I'll say it loud and proud, right in my thread and over here too, since you put out the red carpet.

When I have a thread going on how to reinstall SH4 properly to eliminate mod soup (thanks Kapt Lehmann for that great and enduring phrase) and Owner pops up without prelude or invitation and posts

:salute:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150549
__________________
http://www.ComSubsPac.com (http://www.comsubspac.com/)That's spam. I'm going to call it spam. I'm going to register a complaint with Subsim and I'm going to post about it immediately, strongly and definitely not "muttering in a back room."

Owner, in THIS thread, that's spam, in violation of Subsim rules. As a moderator, you should be held to a higher standard than that. This thread is for handling problems relating to reinstallation of Silent Hunter 4.And when you have the temerity to call me a name (malcontent and naysayer) in violation of Subsim policy, slam me with a mischaracterization of "muttering in a back room" (in violation also), and say that I'm lying about Owner spamming (thereby violating Subsim rules a third time), I'm right here posting the proof and calling a spade a spade. Loudly. In the front room. On a soapbox. In your thread, since you extended the invitation.:salute: Consider this a complaint to Subsim. Have you no shame?

[owner20071963]

Promoting GrafPaper's Post,
Is not Spam,
The work We All do helps,
be it little or large helps others
within Our Subsim Community,
Even Promoting Subsim on Other Game Forums,
Flame me,curse me,if You wish,
Its about time the Sleepy Giant on Subsim Multiplayer Forums,
Awoke,
its 2009,
Future Sales of Games Rely On Multiplay,
We Look to the Future,
We will do whatever to Promote Multiplay,
within The Subsim Community
including & Promoting Other Flotillas,Clubs,etc,etc,
That Sirs' is simply our task here,
For The Silent Hunter Game Series,
Any Personal Issues,
You Sir? Rockin Robbins have with Us,
Verbally can be solved
At the Next Subsim TeamSpeak Meet,
Sunday 17th of May at 9pm Uk time zone.

[mookiemookie]

Since Steve and Rockin Robbins have spoken up, I guess I will as well as well lest I be labeled a malcontent and naysayer in a back room somewhere.

While I am all for multiplayer and you guys having fun with it, and am definitely all for growing the subsim genre, constantly having it "name dropped" in unrelated threads really degrades the signal to noise ratio. You may see yourselves as doing a great thing with by trying to promote multiplayer and I would agree except I take issue with your methodology.

As Steve said, you can do what you want, but that means we can grumble about it as well until the moderators do something or nothing about it.

[Rockin Robbins]

You "will do whatever to promote..." even if it repeatedly, flagrantly and impudently violates Subsim rules. Are you sure that's the horse you want to ride out of here? Graf, are you comfortable with that kind of manifesto? Neal, are you?

[owner20071963]

A fine idea. And I'll not "mutter in back rooms" (violation of Subsim policy on disparaging other members) I'll say it loud and proud, right in my thread and over here too, since you put out the red carpet.

When I have a thread going on how to reinstall SH4 properly to eliminate mod soup (thanks Kapt Lehmann for that great and enduring phrase) and Owner pops up without prelude or invitation and posts

That's spam. I'm going to call it spam. I'm going to register a complaint with Subsim and I'm going to post about it immediately, strongly and definitely not "muttering in a back room."

And when you have the temerity to call me a name (malcontent and naysayer) in violation of Subsim policy, slam me with a mischaracterization of "muttering in a back room" (in violation also), and say that I'm lying about Owner spamming (thereby violating Subsim rules a third time), I'm right here posting the proof and calling a spade a spade. Loudly. In the front room. On a soapbox. In your thread, since you extended the invitation.:salute: Consider this a complaint to Subsim. Have you no shame?

You "will do whatever to promote..." even if it repeatedly, flagrantly and impudently violates Subsim rules. Are you sure that's the horse you want to ride out of here? Graph, are you comfortable with that kind of manifesto? Neal, are you?


Rockin Robbins,
You Sir are known for Throwing Dirty Spanners in Posts,
Please Refrain,
Thank You,
Our main Objective,
with Neal is Posted Above,
To Promote The Subsim Community,
Multiplayer,
When You register with Subsim,
All Forums are For You,
You choose Sir,
Subsim grows Bigger,
With New Members :salute:

[Neal Stevens]

Ok, if I can weigh in here. The Comsubpac guys have worked really hard to keep SH multiplayer alive. There was time in ye olden days where I fought that battle, with the Wolfpack League and Projekt Messerwetzer, but I have never been satisfied enough with the state of SH MP code to keep at it. Comsubpac have not allowed the obstacles to dim their effort and I salute that. I know quite a few really good guys, like Rebel who really love to play SH MP, warts and all. So, I feel it's my responsibility to recognize that.

A few months back, Owner started a PM campaign to get me to elevate the SH MP forums to prime status. As he knew, I get a lot of requests to do this or that, make this forum or that forum, and while some ideas are really good, I cannot do it all and please everyone. Owner understood this and was patient with me. Eventually, he persuaded me to take action on his suggestion.

After conversing with Owner and Graf in a teamspeak meet, I was struck by their sincerity and determination. I asked them to be the moderators of the Subsim SH MP forums, because by golly, these fellows mean business when it comes to encouraging community. I heart that. :salute:

Graf, your editorial was a perfectly legit way to address your concerns. No problem there. One thing I can share with everyone on the topic of spamming: hey, I know you want to inform people about the teamspeak times and stuff, that's ok, and I support that. If you begin to get some friction from people that you are spamming, it's probably a good idea to ease off.

I have been told I am guilty of spamming occasionally myself, in these Subsim forums :D and it is probably true. Maybe I posted too many requests for people to take a survey or too many contest announcements (the Mystery Subsim Challenge, or Subsim Werewolf Hunt). What I suggest, is if you hear this, it's not meant in a harmful way, it is good feedback. If 1 person is saying it, you can bet 10 people are thinking it. When I get feedback from the moderators that they think I am making a mistake...hey, I pause and weigh it very carefully. Good warning signs are a valuable commodity. :yep: Especially if they come from Mookie, Rockin, and Sailor Steve.:03: I bet you a beer they support your efforts, but they would suggest fewer announcements... I haven't seen anyone flaming anyone.

Yes, we want to grow the community, but as community leaders, we have to be careful how we steer the bus, and we have to listen to our passengers.

thanks, I hope we can all can discuss this with a smile.
Neal

[Stormfly]

I'll take the opposite and negative view, just for fun.

I have no interest in co-op multiplayer, but I do miss the old SH2/DC days.

yes the good old days... i had fun also, but taking an opposite and negative view just for fun ?

...What has come over you, is that still this old sea dog ? :dead:

[kaptkirkU4467]

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/6811/spamv.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spamv.jpg)
Spam can b a good thing.

[owner20071963]

Join the Next Subsim TeamSpeak Meet,
Simply chat like everyone did with Neal,
and Mod Groups on Subsim
I Agree with Neal,
Less Jumping in Forums,
We will Continue to Promote Subsim Multiplayer Forums,
If that Disgusts You? Good,
Its meant too,
By the way REBEL Still plays 100% Realism
On Multiplayer,
Against those who choose their own,
But what a Captain in Gameplay,
Above all,
The Above post by GrafPaper
is unknown to me,
Still Subsims No1 Post,
For The Community,
Is Top Rated :salute:

[Graf Paper]

Sailor Steve, you might not have any interest in multiplayer but I invite you to give it a try. Sometimes it's just a matter of finding the right group of people to really make it shine, despite the bugs and warts in the code. I have a list of members here that I've always wanted to sail the multiplayer seas with and you're one of them, SS. :salute:

I recently purchased SH2 and SH4, the former out of curiosity about SH3's predecessor and the latter because I felt I should have knowledge of SH4 and be able to play it for the sake of our tiny (but growing) SH4 community at CSP. Although SH3/GWX 3.0 is far and away the favorite at ComSubsPac, I feel that my duty as an administrator there means sometimes skipping a great MP session of GWX so I can engage SH4 players in their passion for fleet boats, rather than leaving them sitting idle and left alone.

I'm up for a good game of SH2/DC, SH3, GWX 3, Schnellboot, SH4, TMO 1.7, or whatever other mod you have wanted to try in multiplayer. That goes for anyone else who wants to give it a go.

Rockin Robbins, your complaints may be legitimate but I can't tell since you only used quotes from small parts of your SH4 thread, which I could not find. I have no way of knowing if you took those quotes out of context to prove an argument. Your own attitude is belligerent and your complaints are worded to seem intimidating by constantly implying threats in regards to "policy", using it as a bludgeon. Your quoting of violations demonstrates your own broad interpretation of what the rules mean and could be perceived as a veiled attempt at egging a moderator to take action against another member. Please try using less attitude and more logic, or at least more politeness. Perhaps if you approached these matters with more tact and grace, rather than a sledgehammer, you would have a more receptive audience. Nobody likes a "rules lawyer".

I appreciate everyone's input here, both positive and negative. I'm not specifically focusing on "spam" as my argument. The spam issue is used as a highlight of how we sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. We get caught up in the minutiæ of protocol, personal grudges, turf wars, and a hundred other things that erode the foundations of a community as surely as trickles of water wear down mountains. My post was a rallying call. If you choose not to answer that call, you are free ignore it but please do not hamper those who wish to follow in the spirit of community.

I cannot account for owner's actions in other sub-forums. That is a matter between him and the moderators in charge of those areas. If anyone has a complaint about a moderator that is Neal's rightful place to handle it how he sees fit. He's the boss and the last word.

I posted here in the Multiplayer Forums because this is my concern, not other areas. I myself have not engaged in posting about ComSubsPac or multiplayer in general outside of the MP sections, unless it was relevant as a reply to another member's post. Instead, I let the banners in my signature speak for me when particpating in other forum sections. Regardless, in so far as rumor has told me, some complaints were directed at postings here in the multiplayer forums despite the fact that this is exactly what the Silent Hunter Multiplayer section is for. If the sheer volume of CSP related posts here in Multiplayer offends someone, the only solution I can recommend is to start your own MP group or encourage the others to be more active and post as often as you can. Either way, that's a very good thing for the community. :03:

Neal, your fairness and honest support is the touchstone that I try to live by as a moderator here. Both you and owner have a passion for the community that echoes my own and I am forever grateful that both of you have finally given my passion a voice so I could give back to this community and the game I so dearly love! :shucks:

[Rockin Robbins]

"if that disgusts you, good" continues the disturbing trend that I will continue to protest. We don't need Gestapo tactics. Leadership does not consist of browbeating those you wish to motivate.

You forget that all excellence is voluntary. You can force nothing. Enthusiasm is voluntary. I don't feel enthused here at all. If I'm feeling this way and can articulate it, there are 50 who feel the same way that you'll never hear from. But they will work quietly against you.

Remember one thing when you think you want to lead. You're outnumbered by people who operate entirely of their own free will. You have no power to compel. Attempting to force compliance only results in temporary compliance as your whole program collapses and you are left leading nothing. "If that disgusts you, good" reveals an arrogance born of ignorance of the primary requirements for leadership.

That ends my participation in this thread. If areas I am interested in are invaded I will carry on as always.

[Peto]

"if that disgusts you, good" continues the disturbing trend that I will continue to protest. We don't need Gestapo tactics. Leadership does not consist of browbeating those you wish to motivate.

You forget that all excellence is voluntary. You can force nothing. Enthusiasm is voluntary. I don't feel enthused here at all. If I'm feeling this way and can articulate it, there are 50 who feel the same way that you'll never hear from. But they will work quietly against you.

Remember one thing when you think you want to lead. You're outnumbered by people who operate entirely of their own free will. You have no power to compel. Attempting to force compliance only results in temporary compliance as your whole program collapses and you are left leading nothing. "If that disgusts you, good" reveals an arrogance born of ignorance of the primary requirements for leadership.

:yep:

[Graf Paper]

You know something? Rockin Robbins is a great example of how simply communicating can work wonders. We have engaged in an open, earnest, intelligent, and civil dialog in private. I think that both of us had our eyes opened and the veil of ignorance rent asunder.

On my part, I can see and understand his point of view in a new way. His complaints are indeed legitimate. Thank you for providing that link to the Re-Installing SH4 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133290) thread so I could read it in full and have a complete picture, Rockin.

I agree that peppering the entire Radioroom with unrelated posts, simply to advertise ComSubsPac or promote multiplayer in general, is not the way to do things. I think that it should stop immediately.

It goes further than that, though. Aside from asserting his points, he took the extra step to offer some very helpful suggestions for promoting multiplayer within the Silent Hunter Multiplayer forums that I think would work quite well, provided everyone participates.

See how even conflict can bring about good? Two apparent adversaries have become allies working together, not just for the benefit of ComSubsPac but the entire community. All because we were willing to set aside judgment and prejudice, thinking for ourselves instead of following the crowd, to refrain from condemning one man or and entire organization because of the actions of others.

As I have said, it's all about Community.

Cheers to you, Rockin Robbins! You're a far better man than some give you credit. :up:

[mookiemookie]

I agree that peppering the entire Radioroom with unrelated posts, simply to advertise ComSubsPac or promote multiplayer in general, is not the way to do things. I think that it should stop immediately.

:yeah:

[Rockin Robbins]

Darn! He beat me to it. I just want to clear up any possible misconceptions about my positions and also to personally apologize to Graf Paper for including him in my complaint on spamming. He didn't deserve that. I have never seen any evidence that he spammed any irrelevant thread anywhere or endorsed or condoned Owner's actions in doing so. I was wrong to dump on Graf's parade.

In doing so, I'm afraid I also left the impression that I am somehow opposed to multiplay or ComSubsPac. I am not. I personally have never investigated multiplay at all because the solo game is so excellent. But I am not hostile to it at all and am open to checking it out. I've registered over at the ComSubsPac site and on the Multiplay Teamspeak forum. Who knows? I might not like multiplay after all. But I will not attack it or sit by idly if others choose to do so. Please do not make the mistake I did of judging a group by the actions of one, or one by the actions of another.

Even in Owner's case I have to grant that his inappropriate actions have come from judgment clouded by enthusiasm, plus a communication style that communicates little. He might seem entirely different if we were talking instead of posting. Often I make the mistake of assuming that if I can communicate well in writing, someone else has no excuse but obstinance for not doing so also. Of course that is wrong. Some don't communicate well because they can't in writing but are perfectly intelligent and reasonable speakers. So I'm willing to cut Owner a break too, as long as he doesn't spam any more threads.

Now one thing is entirely proper, and I hope we see some of this from the multiplayer community. It is entirely proper for these guys to come over to the SH4 Wolves of the Pacific forum (or any other) and start a clearly titled thread labeled "What we did in our last multiplayer melee" or "Why you should be interested in multiplayer." And they should actually say things other than post a link and a smiley face there too!:haha: I hope they will explain what goes on in their events, describe some action and tell me what I'm missing in single player games. Can we agree that would be proper and helpful in any forum except maybe the mod forums?

What we object to is the hijackings, link and a smiley smash and grabs and general smart butt tactics. It hits us like a pop-up ad for breast enlargement in our favorite fishing equipment website. All we get is irritated and we sure aren't going to click the link. I'm in no way backing away from my comments above castigating that kind of internet vandalism. But my objecting to this is a long way from advocating that we shut these guys down. Let's not do that.

Why don't you follow my example, whip on over to the ComSubsPac website (http://www.comsubspac.com/) and check it out? Then check out their buddies on Teamspeak.(I guess the teamspeak group is not ComSubsPac but another independent group). If you haven't done Teamspeak before their instructions are none too good, but there are people around there to help you get going. There's no obligation, it's free, you have the time, why not check it out and see what we're fussing about? Like me, you might learn something!:up:

[Graf Paper]

Now that's what I'm talking about!

One small correction, though. The TeamSpeak server is ComSubsPac, probably more than our website or forums because it's where we conduct our daily activities from business, game play, to general B.S. among friends.

And many of those friends are much better at speaking than typing. We even have German, Dutch, French, Acadian, Lithuanian, and many others that speak quite good English...sometimes better than me! :haha:

Welcome aboard, Rockin Robbins! I hope you'll grow to enjoy multiplayer as much as I do. I once was a die-hard career man but sailing alone is something I only do occasionally after finding a group that fits my style.

ComSubsPac is a multiplayer community, not a flotilla or club. We are open to any and all, regardless of your skill level.

[owner20071963]

Welcome to ComSubsPac,
Rockin Robbins,
Sorry I missed you on TeamSpeak,
My way of the way I did like post like that,
is wrong,
That I assure you will not happen again,
Its also great that we can learn from each other,
forget about past issues,
and build a stronger Community here together,
Neal i'm sure is as happy about this as we all are,
Could this be a lesson for all here in the
Subsim Community?
lets hope so,
Every member on Subsim is Valuable to
the Community as a whole,
We are a happy bunch of Captains,
with a true love of the game,
Salute to you all :salute:

[Rockin Robbins]

Looking forward to getting some multiplay under my belt. One thing that is frustrating: owning a cheap router. My Linksys WRT54GX2 works just fine but has a limited number of slots for port forwarding. I'm already running FTP and a couple of other things, leaving me with limited options that I'll be checking out.

Best to buy a router that either has better control software, or that you can load up with open source software to gain better control over its behavior. The manufacturers are so concerned about making them easy they no longer care if they WORK!:har:

[danlisa]

I've been following this thread/situation for awhile now and it's interesting contemplating both sides.

While I have no time to enjoy SH MP anymore I have an opinion and I'm going to stick my beak in, as I wish to see the awesome community here thrive.:)
I make no apologies for what I post, I speak my mind and am honest & truthful to the best of my abilities.

Thoughts on:

Community:
First off, Graf & Owner are to be commended. Raising awareness and the promotion of community events is an excellent pastime and will hugely benefit new members as and when they join. It also raises awareness and popularity for Subsim & ComSub. This task is no small feat and usually goes unrewarded (on the whole), also it's no small feat getting Neal to rearrange his boards.:up: Hats off to you.

However, while you are eager to promote these MP events a consideration must also be given to the other members of the community who do not wish to see endless announcements about the subject. More on this next.

Promotion & Announcements:
Being a little detached from this section for awhile now, I had to go looking to see what the ruckus was about. A quick search of Owners post history told me what I needed to know. From that I can understand where other members are coming from but I also understand Owners enthusiasm and eagerness. Yes, I will agree that there are many unanswered threads and threads linking to other threads in sections you would not normally expect to see SH MP info posted in, in that respect I can see where the Spam reports have come from. However, first and foremost the community is everything and Owner is within his right to inform members of anything he wishes. His threads certainly warrant thread creation more than some of the drivel I've seen posted before.

Now, that said, what's the best way forward? Neals suggestion to 'calm' it down a little is one way and will certainly prevent naysayers etc complaining. However, this does nothing to keep the momentum of this section going and the reduction of awareness may see this community drive diminish. Here's a thought. As you guys were so adapt at getting Neal to alter the MP layout here at Subsim, perhaps you could convince him to borrow his announcement section (when he's not using it) which displays a top every board for all to see. This results in one post, on every board that is visible until Neal requires the space.;)

As always, every member here has the ability to read/reply or not read/not reply to any thread he/she wishes. This is the backbone of Subsims moderation technique. I ask that everyone remember that.

Also bear in mind that this MP board is more evident than ever before. Having linking threads to this board may not always be necessary.

Communication:
How you get your point across is everything especially in a written medium like a forum. This briefly touches the above section about Announcements but also, more specifically, post composure.

I'm sorry to single you out Owner but the following relates to your posting technique. With the above in mind I am forced to say that I can't follow, read or understand most of your posts/threads. I suspect many others are in the same boat, so to speak.

There is only one other person who writes in verse here on Subsim but luckily I have a reasonable understanding of how he thinks (well the best that anyone can:har:, he knows who he is). However, I don't have that luxury with you, as do many others here. Perhaps a more succinct and phrased technique to your posts will generate more response to your threads. I just can't get to the end without loosing my train of thought.

And Finally:
This thread is testament to adult and civilised discussion that affects all members here whether a MP player or not, it's general foundation touches on all things that make Subsim a great community to be a member of but as with all things a little tweaking here and there helps everyone play together.

I hope this discussion enables this community event to move forward in a positive direction.

*poof*

[Rockin Robbins]

I don't understand privateer because I know him so well, I understand him because he understands the strengths and weakness in free verse and shows genuine skill in using it to sometimes say less than it appears, other times to say more than it appears he is saying and yet other times to communicate in a straightforward manner. To do that is MUCH more difficult using prose and more dangerous, as misunderstanding a very subjective style is quite likely. Privateer shows great skill in how he writes.

[dogboat]

General rant and rave - to get it off my chest - Tuesday, May 05, 2009 to no one in particular - people shouldn't criticise the game - or the multi-player game - unless they've played it, I find it offensive that people comment on this forum without even having played on it, these people think they are above everyone else, their comments serve no useful purpose to the game and are very rude.

Sub Pack Command is a very open community without rules or restrictions, we have open communication and respect each other.

I feel if some other sites adopted these ideals the Sub Sim community would be greatly improved.

This is MY opinion. Thankyou. [mrwho]:|\\:arrgh!:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/progress.gif

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, I can't resist:D

WHO has criticized multiplay, mrwho?

By the way, welcome to Subsim. Why are you not mrwho here too?

Oh, no! I'm starting to write in poetry. Somebody shoot me!:eek:

[Jimbuna]

General rant and rave - to get it off my chest - Tuesday, May 05, 2009 to no one in particular - people shouldn't criticise the game - or the multi-player game - unless they've played it, I find it offensive that people comment on this forum without even having played on it, these people think they are above everyone else, their comments serve no useful purpose to the game and are very rude.

Sub Pack Command is a very open community without rules or restrictions, we have open communication and respect each other.

I feel if some other sites adopted these ideals the Sub Sim community would be greatly improved.

This is MY opinion. Thankyou. [mrwho]:|\\:arrgh!:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/progress.gif

Steady on there fella!

It just so happens I've been a MP on and off for over three years and have supported ComSubPac since its inception in a lot more ways than most realise.

A sweeping statement like that above is IMO counter productive.

Look at the posts prior to yours.....I see people building bridges and creating friendships and understandings....all positives in my book http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Okay, I might aswell throw in my two pennies.

I'm all for promotion of other sub simulation communities. It helps grow a network of gamers, and shows to producers that there is a closely knit market for submarine games.

However, what you have to understand is that Subsim.com is a community all of its own. Continuous advertisement of another community can in some cases cause people to migrate to another place, and then all of a sudden, Subsim has about as much life as a rotten pickle.

I've been to ComSubPac and played multiplayer in SH3 and 4, and I can say that it a mighty fine group of chaps, but ordinary members of Subsim dont really want that fact shoved in their faces all the time. Usually, if people are interested in joining a place, they will do so via their own choice, not due to vast public advertisement. Usually, a simple link in a forum signature is enough. :)

[Graf Paper]

[Hefting out another plank to add to the bridge...hopefully]

To give mrwho the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he meant "people" in the plural sense rather than general. I doubt he meant everyone when he used that term.

It might seem like a flame unless you dig a little deeper and realize that mrwho truly loves multiplayer Silent Hunter and the folks who play it number among many of his friends. Strong feelings can sometimes make for strong words. Would anyone else feel or say less if someone attacked their own favorite SH home and buddies, such as Subsim or the Grey Wolves?

There's no need to name names as far as multiplayer's critics. We've all seen posts before where die-hard career captains have made plain their feelings, sometimes not in a very nice way, either! There's plenty of those to find with the Search function. By them being more than one person, I'd say that the word "people" is an apt denomination and pronoun.

Jimbuna, you still owe us a good round of multiplayer. You're definitely on my list! Now, if only I can succeed in getting Neal, Lehmann, privateer, and a few others together and I'd have my dream flotilla with whom I've always wanted to play at least one MP mission. :D

To continue Rockin's trend...

Some say "nay",
or "go away".
They just won't stay,
for multiplay.
"Career is better",
they'll say with letters.
I shake my head,
at what they've said,
then laugh and grin,
as I'm logging in.
My friends and mates,
are there in wait.
"Let's play a good game!"
"What's the mission's name?"
Torpedoes los!
Then dodge "wabos".
Sink or win,
I'll come back again,
despite bugs or quirks,
that can gum the works.
The reason now same as then...
"All you need are good men!"

Good hunting, all! :yeah:

[owner20071963]

Kapitan Philips,
The above post is all about Community,
At ComSubsPac,
members are pointed to Subsim,
new and old for the Great vast info,
which is here at Subsim,
and to Bts-Mods.com,
and other great Mod Groups,Mod makers,etc,
Thank you danlisa for your kind words,
and some great ideas :salute:
Verbally I speak better than Post,
shame on me :oops:
to put in txt, GrafPaper surpasses me there,
Jimbuna is correct,
bridges are built,
A lesson learned by all of us,
Which makes this Community stronger for future players :salute:

[owner20071963]

Next Meet is Posted,
Lets see the Moderators & Members
Attend if possible,
All Categorys On Subsim,
SH3 & SH4,
Other Sim Games,
17 of May 9pm Uk time zone,
Sunday,,,,,

Ever use a Microphone?
Easy,
say Hello :D
You will not be Bitten :D:D:D
I hope :rotfl:
Neal will join us,
for 1 Hour,
Plus lots of New Players,
World Wide,
See Yee all there :salute:
Including Subsim Posting Spammers :D:D:rotfl::rotfl::salute:
Most of all?
Chat & enjoy the Meet On TeamSpeak:salute:

[Graf Paper]

post deleted. Reason: reply to previous post that was also deleted.

[owner20071963]

Its ben a while since I posted here,
work and real life comes first,
like many here on Subsim,
Firstly may I say,
Like other Mod Groups on Subsim,
and its Members,
We do not get paid to do what We do,
We do it to benefit others,
expanding SH as it is,
In Multiplayer,
with New Ideas,etc,etc,
with New & Old Mod Groups,
and Modders joining Our Community,
SH Community,
they do so to Help Us all,
As We do,
On TeamSpeak,
Voice is Faster than txt,,,,,
Los :salute:

[Graf Paper]

I think this thread served its purpose. No point in adding further off-topic posts.