turning off map updates and tracking targets question

[I'm goin' down]

Have tentatively mastered automatic targeting and manual targeting using the aspect ratio, I was arrogant enough to turn off map updates as I confidently adjust the settings for my next mission to 50% realism. Off Honshu I located a convoy at 60 miles on the map, and moved into position. The problem was the convoy was never updated on the map, and sailed past me at 5,000 yards to starboard. I could not surface to get ahead of it for fear of being spotted. Now for the questions. (1) If map updates are off, how do you track a target outside of radar range. (2) If map updates are off, how do you track a contract once you make contact with the hydrophones or radar?

[Rockin Robbins]

You would have to plot it yourself, using the pencil tool and putting an x on the appropriate spot on the chart. I personally think that turning map updates off is much less realistic than leaving map updates on and using Trigger Maru or TMOplot.

With those two options the only negative you are left with is that targets are positioned exactly on the map. If you are using radar or sonar positions that is not a problem as your plotted positions would be nearly perfect anyway. For visual positions it is overly accurate, but we're stuck with what the game engine feeds us.

Map updates off also deactivates the attack map plotting, making checks of plot against TDC settings impossible. This is another blow to the concept that turning map updates off somehow makes the game more realistic.

[I'm goin' down]

I will leave them on for the reasons explained above.

[joegrundman]

Well that's RRs opinion, and he reasons it well, but i never play with map updates on and will never go back to it. Without map contact updates you are forced to deal with imperfect solutions, and this for me is a far more absorbing and intense way to play.

You can either use your head for tracking target, you can use the PK to track the target for you (and that can be very satisfying), you can mark the target track on the nav map, or on a separate piece of paper and there are a whole host of challenges and techniques that become useful to solve them.

[Beardy Bob Black]

Hey IGD.

I have been sailing the Pacific for a little while now, but am still a novice so take my comments with whatever weight you choose.

I set realism at 90% - it would be 100% but I cant resist using the external camera to watch the fruits of my labours (I love explosions).

You may notice that update map contacts does not affect realism count (I have TMO loaded so this may be incorrect for stock).

I rationalise it this way:

Realistically, I would not be the only crewman on the bridge. Therefore I would have someone constantly updating the map while I did captainly things like shout orders and drink hot tea.

So to have contact updates on is infact MORE realistic!

Besides the map tools are just not up to it - the crosses have to have a timestamp at least for them to be useful.

BTW: Does anyone else find themselves giving orders? My wife caught me the other day telling the computer to open tubes 1 thru 4.

[SteamWake]

They did have pencils on board you know :up:

[Factor]

what about sharpies?

[Cmdr Fud Pucker]

Even though I changed the config file to read "No Map Contacts Update=true" I still get them! I don't mind (even like!) the dashed sonar lines but the radar and visual icons on the map are too accurate and it's hard to ignore them. Anyone else unable to turn them off?:hmm:

[Aramike]

You would have to plot it yourself, using the pencil tool and putting an x on the appropriate spot on the chart. I personally think that turning map updates off is much less realistic than leaving map updates on and using Trigger Maru or TMOplot.

With those two options the only negative you are left with is that targets are positioned exactly on the map. If you are using radar or sonar positions that is not a problem as your plotted positions would be nearly perfect anyway. For visual positions it is overly accurate, but we're stuck with what the game engine feeds us.

Map updates off also deactivates the attack map plotting, making checks of plot against TDC settings impossible. This is another blow to the concept that turning map updates off somehow makes the game more realistic.If you have time, please expand on this concept a tad more. Why do you find this to be less realistic, and what settings do you find to be the most?

Not at all being contentious. Genuinely curious...

[tale]

Some time ago I already wrote this about "the unrealistic satellite, laser accuracy view of the enemy from the attack map that you get in the stock game wiht map contacts on."

In the stock game with map contacts on you get a perfectly accurate representation of the enemy ships updated in real time, so calculating speed and course is piece of cake. You don't even have to mess with the stadimeter or the recognition book any more, just place two marks on the target 3 minutes apart and you've got its exact course and speed. And you can perform looong distance attacks with the confidence of having perfect data about the targets.

If on the other hand you don't see the targets position in the attack map updated in real time you have to start using the radar (if you have one), the sonar, the recognition book and the stadimeter, all very inaccurate at long distances; and then you can consider lucky or experienced if you hit something further than 2500 yards off.

The bottom line is: map contact updates off is more challenging and at least for me, more fun.

[Fish40]

Some time ago I already wrote this about "the unrealistic satellite, laser accuracy view of the enemy from the attack map that you get in the stock game wiht map contacts on."

In the stock game with map contacts on you get a perfectly accurate representation of the enemy ships updated in real time, so calculating speed and course is piece of cake. You don't even have to mess with the stadimeter or the recognition book any more, just place two marks on the target 3 minutes apart and you've got its exact course and speed. And you can perform looong distance attacks with the confidence of having perfect data about the targets.

If on the other hand you don't see the targets position in the attack map updated in real time you have to start using the radar (if you have one), the sonar, the recognition book and the stadimeter, all very inaccurate at long distances; and then you can consider lucky or experienced if you hit something further than 2500 yards off.

The bottom line is: map contact updates off is more challenging and at least for me, more fun.



I would have too agree with you! BTW, I enjoyed watching your videos'. I found them helpful:yep:

[Rockin Robbins]

There is a way to get a highly refined and accurate representation of a plotting crew working for you without getting too much information: Trigger Maru. Here is why.

In the stock game, your attack map shows a ship silhouette. This tells you exactly what kind of target you have identified. Its color shows you whether it is friendly, neutral or foe. It has a velocity vector tail to show its exact course. And in text beside the silhouette is the ID, course and speed. That's WAY too much information for a radar sighting or a visual sighting on the horizon.

Trigger Maru kills the text. You don't see the ID, that the ship is going NNE at slow speed. Then all contacts are gray. You surely don't know if a target is friend/foe/neutral unless you have identified them first. You cannot because the silhouettes are also nerfed, replaced by a black position dot on your nav map.

So if your radar shows a contact, that's ALL it shows. You must mark its position with an "x" and mark it again at a later time to establish course and speed, just like the real submarines had to do.

Detecting zigs is just as difficult, in this case more difficult than in reality, because a crewman would be assigned full time to track the predicted bearing of a target and when the predicted bearing and actual bearing differed, he would call "zig toward" or "zig away." We're going to be handicapped in that regard because you are a one-man plotting crew here.

See all my instructional videos for illustrations of TMO plotting in use. It is highly evolved and gives the most realistic portrayal of what you in position of captain would be doing on the submarine, without giving you too much information.

Dramatization: Captain is on the bridge when the contact is discovered.

Exec: Cap, we have a target, bearing 249, range 5.5 miles.

Captain: OK, I'm coming down to the control room plotting table to plot it. Dufus, you have the helm for five minutes.

Uh.... every time the contact is updated the captain is going down the ladder, wrecking his night vision to plot the thing himself and analyze the plot? I think he's going to skipper the Admiral's garbage scow when he gets back to Lockwood's office! That's insanely stupid.

There is the argument that the TM plotting system is unrealistic because it plots the exact physical position of a visual sighting. That's hardwired and unavoidable. If you have radar, it is not unrealistic. Radar was the gold standard of position determination: much better than stadimeter. It did give you a precise position. Skippers assumed that their hits would be reduced by at least 50% if they were deprived of their radar. They were right.

So we are left with accepting one easily ignored (just don't use visual sightings' positions as reported in TM with map updates on) problem, vs LOTS of problems, especially attack map useless, with map updates off that make it a ludicrous way to play. Personally, any method that eliminates the ability to check TDC data against the plot on the attack map gets the fail buzzer from me.

Playing with map updates off is like driving with a bag over your head. Challenging, yes! Interesting, yes! Realistic, no!

Here is a screenie of a Dick O'Kane attack with the TM plotting system. See the already identified and tracked target there. From the plot none of that is obvious. It is a radar position. What is unrealistic there? NOTHING! As he advances toward my position, I will continually refine his course and speed until I am satisfied or he is too close for comfort. At that point I will submerge and his position will be fixed by the intersection of established target track and his bearing. That is also totally realistic. When he reaches the shoot bearing, he will be sunk.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Initialsetup.jpg

[tale]

One may think that playing with the "maps contacts update" on is more realistic than playing with the option off.
You may pretend that some of your crew members are using the identification manual, radar, stadimeter, and plotting the information for you; but then again why not have your crew members make the necessary calculations to perform the attack and make the game even more realistic by having the autotargeting option on.
Then you can be a real captain just giving orders and taking decisions, leaving the technicalities to your crew.

I'm afraid that my ego is too big to share the glory with others, virtual or not. I want to play all the roles: measure, plot, identify, fix, and never sleep. Ah, and don't forget I can travel in time faster than anyone else. It's just me, myself and I :|\\

Thanks for the compliments fish40

[Soundman]

I'm afraid that my ego is too big to share the glory with others, virtual or not. I want to play all the roles: measure, plot, identify, fix, and never sleep.

Everyone is making some excellent points here. I think the quote above sums it up for the most part. It all depends on how you wish to play. Playing with contacts off forces you to wear many hats and that is fun to some, although it's very difficult to do all those tasks without pausing the game and that's an emersion killer for many people. The beauty is, we have the ablity to customize the game the way we wish to play it. There is no wrong, right, better or worse. Just do what gives you the most satisfaction. Me personally... I play it RR's way. If the game grows tiresome for me, maybe I'll try it the other way one of these days.

[Rockin Robbins]

One may think that playing with the "maps contacts update" on is more realistic than playing with the option off.
You may pretend that some of your crew members are using the identification manual, radar, stadimeter, and plotting the information for you; but then again why not have your crew members make the necessary calculations to perform the attack and make the game even more realistic by having the autotargeting option on.
Then you can be a real captain just giving orders and taking decisions, leaving the technicalities to your crew.

I'm afraid that my ego is too big to share the glory with others, virtual or not. I want to play all the roles: measure, plot, identify, fix, and never sleep. Ah, and don't forget I can travel in time faster than anyone else. It's just me, myself and I :|\\

Thanks for the compliments fish40
Tale, you ignore the fact that TM gives you no identification, velocity, or course. You have to work them all out for yourself. No crew does that for you. When you are selling something, the most important thing is to listen to and respond to the points raised by the customer or in opposition to your point of view.

I am saying that the cost of updates off is a whole constellation of very unrealistic situations:
Plotting yourself on the nav map is something no captain would ever do and takes enough time that pausing the game is frequently necessary. If pausing the game is realistic, find me a sub captain that did that
Radar contacts don't show up on the nav map and the radar screen isn't good enough to give us anywhere near the extreme accuracy that real submarines did, in spite of Nisgeis' radar screen improvements. The best way to simulate the accuracy of a radar contact is to automatically plot it on the nav and attack maps.
Many of the tools for manual plotting: bearing rate tables, TDC to periscope bearing link, bearing difference plot, periscope radar plot, radar plot, stadimeter plot, navigational sonar plot, DRT, Parallel Motion Protractor (PMT), Bearing and Range Indicator (this is available with some mods), or speed scales or dividers, are missing from the game. Also there is no way one person could impliment all these tools proplerly in real time, meaning again you would destroy any pretention of realism by pausing the game to use them if they were available.
And without map updates on the attack screen doesn't work. You cannot compare your TDC solution to the plot to determine solution quality. THAT is so entirely unrealistic that I am unwilling to admit any method that prohibits it any claim to realism at all. If your only measurement device that evaluates the quality of your solution is whether the torpedo misses or not, you're not in a submarine, you're in a video game. A pretty poor video game.Now, don't try to make me say that the TM plotting system is perfect. I already stated that it is not and trotted out your side of the discussion for all to see. I listen and respond. Go thou and do likewise!:up:

[tater]

The problem with auto-targeting is that it is perfect.

Having SOME of the reality of crew in your attack party trumps the complete unreality of the auto-targeting system.

The bottom line is that the bones of a proper system are there, but do to hardcoding we cannot fix it.

[I'm goin' down]

Rockin Robbins and tale are in a lovefest?

Speaking from blissful ignorance, exemplified by the fact that I cannot finish a single RFB mission without sinking a ship and having miy boat sunk several times, I want you both to know that I had not seen and meticulously studies each of your tutorials my boat would not have nearly as many "near misses" as I have had so far. They would have simply been misses!! Map updates on or off? Nothing would help me, according to my college age son. :know:

[Rockin Robbins]

Lovefest? Heck no! He has a way he likes to play and I have a way I like to play. I have no quarrel with that at all. We're just debating which way is more realistic, when both have their defects. I find it interesting, not contentious.

Heck, Tale is a major contributor to the [REL] Advanced TDC + PK Tutorial thread. It wouldn't be as good without him. I recommend his tutorial videos every time I get the chance!:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Rockin Robbins and tale are in a lovefest?

Speaking from blissful ignorance, exemplified by the fact that I cannot finish a single RFB mission without sinking a ship and having miy boat sunk several times, I want you both to know that I had not seen and meticulously studies each of your tutorials my boat would not have nearly as many "near misses" as I have had so far. They would have simply been misses!! Map updates on or off? Nothing would help me, according to my college age son. :know:

Get with in 1500 yards of the target. It works far better than the 3000 yard shots. :up:

[tale]

Tale, you ignore the fact that TM gives you no identification, velocity, or course. You have to work them all out for yourself. No crew does that for you. When you are selling something, the most important thing is to listen to and respond to the points raised by the customer or in opposition to your point of view.

I am saying that the cost of updates off is a whole constellation of very unrealistic situations:
Plotting yourself on the nav map is something no captain would ever do and takes enough time that pausing the game is frequently necessary. If pausing the game is realistic, find me a sub captain that did that
Radar contacts don't show up on the nav map and the radar screen isn't good enough to give us anywhere near the extreme accuracy that real submarines did, in spite of Nisgeis' radar screen improvements. The best way to simulate the accuracy of a radar contact is to automatically plot it on the nav and attack maps.
Many of the tools for manual plotting: bearing rate tables, TDC to periscope bearing link, bearing difference plot, periscope radar plot, radar plot, stadimeter plot, navigational sonar plot, DRT, Parallel Motion Protractor (PMT), Bearing and Range Indicator (this is available with some mods), or speed scales or dividers, are missing from the game. Also there is no way one person could impliment all these tools proplerly in real time, meaning again you would destroy any pretention of realism by pausing the game to use them if they were available.
And without map updates on the attack screen doesn't work. You cannot compare your TDC solution to the plot to determine solution quality. THAT is so entirely unrealistic that I am unwilling to admit any method that prohibits it any claim to realism at all. If your only measurement device that evaluates the quality of your solution is whether the torpedo misses or not, you're not in a submarine, you're in a video game. A pretty poor video game.Now, don't try to make me say that the TM plotting system is perfect. I already stated that it is not and trotted out your side of the discussion for all to see. I listen and respond. Go thou and do likewise!:up:

Let's discuss this topic a little bit further, it's fun. :)

I mean, next customer please! How can I help you? you want a laser designator for your WWII submarine? :o Sorry we haven't developed that yet, but we can offer you at special price the "funny solution set", includes a drawing board, some rulers and pens, an ID book, a radar and a stadimeter

Now seriously, when you are in position to perform your attack run, the most important pieces of information you need are the course and speed of your target, once you know this you can successfully apply any of the techniques available to put in contact your torpedoes with your target.

If you can place a mark in the EXACT position of your target in the navigation map (and you can with contacts update on), doesn't matter the color, the shape, the ID, or any other info or mod, then all you have to do is wait 3 minutes, or 5 min. or even 30 seconds, place another perfectly accurate mark, draw a line between both marks and all of a sudden you can read the perfectly accurate target's course and with a simple division get its speed to the tenth of knot. By the way the formula is Speed in knots = yards /(minutes x 33.75)

How many experienced crews could get course and speed of their targets in 30 seconds?

On radar accuracy I have to say that the first time I got a radar installed in my virtual boat I thought it was a useless piece of junk, but now I couldn't live without it; terrible thing for measuring ranges but pretty good for bearings (want to know more, check my video tutorial on radar approach :ping: )

How about the tools we are missing: the big ruler, the small ruler, the funny shaped ruler, not to forget the big switch and the red knob, yes a miss every single one of them, but since I don't have them I use the tools included in my "funny solution set" (on discount know, don't forget). By the way I don't use the PAUSE button when plotting any more, not since I learnt how to convert the bearing to target into bearing from north (again, check my video tutorial on radar approach :ping: ) . With a little practice you have plenty of time to do all your calculations, lines, circles, marks, etc. without pausing. Oh but I am a sinner, I use the time compression quite often :oops:.

I tend to measure the quality of my solution in terms of its results, and I can guarantee you that with map contacts update off you will miss a lot more than with map contacts on, why you think we have the "funny solution set" on discount price, not many want it.

Oh, no I'm afraid I finally lost my marbles up until now I thought Silent Hunter IV was a simulation video game they told me that in the shop, but now I know it's all made up by the MATRIX.:x

One last thing, and I apologize for the length of this post (didn't have time to make it shorter), hopefully most of you didn't pass the second paragraph. Those of you who use the maps contacts update, do you actually use the recognition book, or the stadimeter?

[AVGWarhawk]

Rockin Robbins and tale are in a lovefest?

Speaking from blissful ignorance, exemplified by the fact that I cannot finish a single RFB mission without sinking a ship and having miy boat sunk several times, I want you both to know that I had not seen and meticulously studies each of your tutorials my boat would not have nearly as many "near misses" as I have had so far. They would have simply been misses!! Map updates on or off? Nothing would help me, according to my college age son. :know:

Get within 1500 yards of the target. It works far better than the 3000 yard shots. :up:I play with map update on. Hell, I can not do it all. What next, making muffins in the galley? If I wanted the crew along for the ride then they become just passengers. If that is the case, I might has well play a cruise ship simulation. Map updates are just that, updates from your crew. Just my thoughts on the matter. Besides, the updates only appear when you sonarman hears them or they are spotted while surfaced. I do not see ships popping up on the map 500 NM off.

[Rockin Robbins]

No, just like the real guys, I figure that if I have to use the stadimeter, that's an immediate 50% or more penalty. For me the radar is king and used with methods that don't require precise range inputs: John P Cromwell, Dick O'Kane or Vector Analysis attacks. That way if my track is a little off it won't matter and position is established by intersection of periscope bearing and track.

The stadimeter is for use on secondary targets after the booms from my initial attack produce chaos in the convoy. Then I'm in close and the stadimeter error is tolerable. Then I identify target by recognition manual and do the whole song and dance. I've learned not to follow a dancing merchie and try for a zero or 180 AoB shot in TMO. They don't have any inertia and change course instantly. It's a major defect in the game being worked on by LukeFF of the RFB Team.

[Munchausen]

Those of you who use the maps contacts update, do you actually use the recognition book, or the stadimeter?

Both. I use the book to get keel depth (then setting torps 11 feet shallow of what's indicated in the book). I use the stadimeter on stationary targets and to check my settings in the TDC.

What this sim needed was either an attack map that uses the tools available on the navigation map or a way to disable map contacts when the radar is off. Or both.

[Rockin Robbins]

All it needs is a random error in the plotting of visual targets. The amplitude of the random error should change with time of day, condition of the sea and weather. Possibly even crew fatigue could enter into it. That way you would know that your blip on the nav map or attack map incorporated some error if it was a visual sighting and it would be up to you to refine that position using the tools at hand.

For radar and sonar generated targets, the accuracy is quite realistic.

Then, with tater, I would call for several hundred different types of merchies with only a couple dozen in the recognition manual. This would drive home the fact that using your recognition manual and stadimeter is a crapshoot at best. And the recognition manual should mirror the actual ONI manual with crude line drawings of the targets and multiple height readings from cabin tops, funnels, masts and you pick your aspect of the target to measure.

The American TDC needs to have its direct link to the periscope, which Nisgeis says was there and reading Dick O'Kane shows was used for his shooting technique.

But all of that is wishful thinking. Those aspects are hardwired and not moddable. So we do the best we can with what we have, which is wonderful!