Sharks or Wolves?

[swdw]

Just a random weekend musing.

I know the U-boats are referred to as wolves which a group being called a wolf pack makes sense. But which came first? Wolf or wolfpack?

Since in the PTO, the majority of the war the subs hunted alone, I've seen the fleet boats referred to as sharks. Anyone else run into this reference? It would make sense, as sharks like the great white often cruise alone.

(yeah, the US used the term wolfback later in the war for their groups, because the term had already been coined and had achieved acceptence)

Just pondering:hmm:

[Sailor Steve]

I used to have a friend who collected ball caps with messages on them. My favorite had one word on it:

DAMFINO

That's my best answer to your question.

[AJ!]

Steve does make a good point....

:hmm:

[Wild_skipper]

I do not really understand the question :doh:

[AVGWarhawk]

The question is, did the fleet boats have a name such as sharks or something of that nature? The uboats used wolfs or wolfpacks. I have not heard or read anything myself. Most books just describe the fleets working together in wolf packs as the Germans did. No real name for the tactic was given to them.

[Toastman]

DAMFINO ???

nice to see some fellow Rossi fans here ....nice one AJ!

toastman out

[Wild_skipper]

The question is, did the fleet boats have a name such as sharks or something of that nature? The uboats used wolfs or wolfpacks. I have not heard or read anything myself. Most books just describe the fleets working together in wolf packs as the Germans did. No realy name for the tactic was given to them.

Ow now i get it thnx:up: but is still dont have a answer to that question :rotfl:

[AJ!]

DAMFINO ???

nice to see some fellow Rossi fans here ....nice one AJ!

toastman out

:up: :up:

[CCIP]

Actually I don't remember "wolves" being part of the submariner jargon on U-boats, either. I'm not so sure that's what they used to refer to themselves... but I get the impression "wolves" had more to do with propaganda.

Pretty sure subs were just subs. As to the American ones specifically, well, they weren't the Silent Service for nothing! I think the big difference between the U-boats and the American subs is that whereas U-boat feats were widely publicised through German propaganda, Americans did not make a big propaganda topic out of submarines and most of their actions remained obscure enough from the public not to warrant much in the way of threatening nicknames. Even more true of British subs - there were some heroic feats behind them and they have some respectable records, especially in their role as sub-killers, but little of it registered in the popular mind at all.

[aanker]

Just a quick reply to that interesting thought above .... Although I don't like to cite Wikipedia as a source, according to their site, "Donitz used the term Rudel to describe his strategy of submarine warfare—Rudel translates best as "pack" of animals and has become known in English as "wolf pack" (Wolfsrudel), a more accurate metaphoric, but not literal, translation..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_pack

Makes sense to me. Actually the article is pretty interesting.

Happy Hunting!

Art

[CDR Resser]

Doenitz actually referred to his submariners as his "grey wolves". So the reference to the uboats and their sailors as wolves can be historically justified.
I have never read anything from or about Lockwood referring to his submariners as anything other than his "boys". Perhaps some of our members with real world experience could enlighten us.

Respectfully Submitted:
CDR Resser

[swdw]

The sharks reference comes from something I read a long time ago. Wish I could remember the source. I know that it's not an "official" or even widely used term by any means.

[Crosseye76]

I rode a Boomer in the 80's so my timeframe is well after WW II.

We never called the Boat anything other than "The Boat" or it's specific nickname which for SSBN 643 George Bancroft was the "Gomer B". If we referred to other submarines in port or what have you, we usually said "Those Boats" or "The Other Boats". If it was a specific Sub, then it would be by hull number : "The 627 Boat" or "The 640 Boat".

As far as Wolf and Wolfpack, the term "Wolfpack" had been firmly linked to groups of German U-boats hunting allied ships. When the U.S. subs began the first organized groups of Boats, the term 'Wolfpack" wasn't one U.S. sailors were really going to adopt and use. Instead the groups were named after the overall Commander of the group, usually the senior skipper, I.E. "Blair's Blasters" or "Loughton's Loopers".

It is interesting to note however, almost every history of U.S. subs calls the groups "Wolfpacks". The term is so ingrained, so descriptive, that pretty much any combat group of Subs is going to get labeled a "Wolfpack" by somebody.

[THE_MASK]

I am pretty sure it is mentioned in here
http://www.aimm.museum/SS-394/1944-10-19-Report_War_Patrol_1.pdf

[Ducimus]

When the U.S. subs began the first organized groups of Boats, the term 'Wolfpack" wasn't one U.S. sailors were really going to adopt and use. Instead the groups were named after the overall Commander of the group, usually the senior skipper, I.E. "Blair's Blasters" or "Loughton's Loopers".

It is interesting to note however, almost every history of U.S. subs calls the groups "Wolfpacks". The term is so ingrained, so descriptive, that pretty much any combat group of Subs is going to get labeled a "Wolfpack" by somebody.



http://www.valoratsea.com/wolfpacks.htm

[Rockin Robbins]

I wonder why the site has a list of worlfpacks if the list isn't complete. Missing is the wolfpack with Kraken, Bullhead and one other where Bullhead became the last casualty of the war and my wife's grandfather lost many good friends from his sister boat.

[kikn79]

I seem to recall reading in Wahoo by Okane that during the third patrol, Ultra intercepted a distress call by the convoy Cmdr. Morton was attacking that stated they were being attacked by a wolfpack of submarines. This coined the term "One boat wolfpack" when referring to the USS Wahoo.

Chuck

[Gunnar]

This is just a thought but I seem to recall that Donitz and the rest of the U-Boat command structure considered them to be wolves with one exception.....

From memory (and I think it's in one of the volumes of Pridham and Noakes or in the Battle for the Atlantic), that during Operation Drumbeat, where the larger boats operated independently of each other, the German propaganda teams considered them as sharks hunting as loners testing themselves against the sea and the enemy.

I accept that this is a somewhat romantic notion of U-Boat operations but there was a strong feeling running through the entire OKW that the best trained men, with the best motives and best equipment could overcome all obstacles. This of course was a fallacy as the defeat of the U-Boats proved.

Of course, not only did the technical edge the Allies had developed do severe and lasting damage to the operations and success of the German U-Boats after mid-'42 but the fact thet the US shipyards could simpy outbuild the losses meant that more and more of the effort put in by the U-Boats was futile.

[AVGWarhawk]

I seem to recall reading in Wahoo by Okane that during the third patrol, Ultra intercepted a distress call by the convoy Cmdr. Morton was attacking that stated they were being attacked by a wolfpack of submarines. This coined the term "One boat wolfpack" when referring to the USS Wahoo.

Chuck


Some of that was to uplift the American public as well. Wahoo was kicking major butt!!! There was one instance, forget the sub, were the skipper said they were so close to Japan that they were betting on the horse races going on in Tokyo. That made the paper and was part of a feel good type campaign the papers took on.