What video card would you recommend?

[Torplexed]

Haven't played SH4 much since it came out due to sluggish performance. I hate having having to restart the computer everythime I exit this sim or GWX, because the performance takes sucha hit. I'm currently got a 256 MB DDR ATI Radeon 9800XT card installed. What out there would be more ideal? :hmm:

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, I built a computer for SH3 with 2 EVGA 7600GT 256mb cards SLi configuration. I can run it WFO in SH4 but they can get overloaded. I can't use the hi-res foam in ROW. If I were to do it again I'd buy one of the new 8800GT cards. The price is right at just under $300 in the States, and the performance is everything you need.

[Torplexed]

Well, I built a computer for SH3 with 2 EVGA 7600GT 256mb cards SLi configuration. I can run it WFO in SH4 but they can get overloaded. I can't use the hi-res foam in ROW. If I were to do it again I'd buy one of the new 8800GT cards. The price is right at just under $300 in the States, and the performance is everything you need.

Thanks for the info. :)

[maerean_m]

Since your card is a 9800, it means you have an AGP motherboard so the great 8800GT won't help as it works on PCI-Ex.

The best card for you depends on your budget. Have a look at Tom's hardware recommendation (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/09/05/the_best_gaming_video_cards_for_the_money/page5.html).

I have a Leadtek 7800 GS (overclocked from 375/1200 to 500/1400) that scores a fine 6700 points in 3D Mark 2005 and 1470 in the Shader Model 3 test in 3D Mark 2006 (you can see here (http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=725&model2=716&chart=315) how it stands, e.g. it beats the 1950Pro :rock: which is considered the best AGP card).

[Torplexed]

Since your card is a 9800, it means you have an AGP motherboard so the great 8800GT won't help as it works on PCI-Ex.

The best card for you depends on your budget. Have a look at Tom's hardware recommendation (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/09/05/the_best_gaming_video_cards_for_the_money/page5.html).

I have a Leadtek 7800 GS (overclocked from 375/1200 to 500/1400) that scores a fine 6700 points in 3D Mark 2005 and 1470 in the Shader Model 3 test in 3D Mark 2006 (you can see here (http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=725&model2=716&chart=315) how it stands, e.g. it beats the 1950Pro :rock: which is considered the best AGP card).
Wow. More great advice. Thanks for the link. I find all this card stuff baffling. According to my computer's manual I have card connector slots for PCI and AGP, but maybe it's better to stick with AGP.:hmm: I can't say I know the difference though.

[stabiz]

Yes, you need AGP. Pci Express and Pci is not the same. The difference between the AGP and Pci Express is how fast data is transferred. (Mainly)

But I agree with the others here, the new 8800GT is awesome. Its nearly as good as the GTX, which costs more than twice the money.

[THE_MASK]

Asus Eah2600xt

[maerean_m]

PCI is a very useful interface for rather slow devices (audio cards, modems, tv tuners, 100 mbit LAN cards etc). In the old days (Voodoo II (http://www.cpu-central.com/articles/images/3dfxdow.jpg)), video cards were slow enough to use PCI and didn't even need a radiator. When VooDoo Banshee (http://alag3.mfa.kfki.hu/dcsabas/hardware/images/banshee.jpg) appeared, it was so fast it needed active cooling and a faster interface with the motherboard (e.g. AGP - Advanced Graphics Port or Accelerated Graphics Port). Then even that was not enough, so AGP 2x, 4x and 8x were developed.

When AGP also reached its limitations, PCI-Express was developed but on a much modular base, allowing motherboards to include more than one port and even at different bandwidths: you could have two PCI-Exp x16, one x4 and one x1 (which are smaller in size, having fewer wires).

So PCI and PCI-Express are not the same thing and even coexist in today's motherboards.

BTW, if all these details are "baffling" you, the card's price isn't. If it's cheap, it sucks.

[maerean_m]

Asus Eah2600xt

I'm curious of this card's performance in 3D Mark 2006.

[The General]

Which is better do you think? I have a Nvidia 7600GT PCI-Ex, any good? OR should I upgrade?

[maerean_m]

Which is better do you think? I have a Nvidia 7600GT PCI-Ex, any good? OR should I upgrade? A card is good if you're happy with the performance. As for the 7600GT, I think you are.

7600GT is as powerful as the stock 7800GS and is OK for playing games (such as SH4) at 1280 resolution and below with settings on High.

If you're playing Crysis (http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/maerean_m/Crysis%20demo%20screenshots/?action=view&current=6_exposure.jpg), you'll find that is SLOW, but then some say all cards are slow for Crysis :D. (i have to use 800*600 to be able to set it on medium-high).

[Rockin Robbins]

If you did have a longing for the 8800GT, which needs a PCI-e slot, you could do what I did for my son and buy a relatively inexpensive motherboard. If you're a penny pincher like me and use AMD processors, I purchased a Gigabyte GA-M61P-S Slot AM2 nVidea motherboard for $74.99 from NewEgg and it has a PCI-e slot to run the 8800GT. There are other inexpensive but highly effective motherboards that will work with other microprocessors. The way computers are made today, doing a motherboard transplant is not a job you have to be afraid of.

@General: PCI-e is by far better than AGP. I'm running two 7600GTs SLi'd together and running wide open at 1153 x 864 with pretty good results. The cards can bog down if you're close to port at high TC. I can't use ROW hi-res foam. Actually I'm considering moving up to the 8800GT. But if you're thinking of moving up, the 7900 cards wouldn't be a great increase and you'd be forced to the 8000 series for meaningful improvement. The 8600 cards haven't been really well received, with some saying their 7900 cards do better. This leaves the 8800GT cards as the best upgrade. Even Newegg is charging a $30 premium over suggested retail price right now, and most sources are out of stock due to incredible demand. If you're willing to wait a few months, prices will be in the $250 American range. Looks like Eurpoean prices are finally starting to show some value too. Too bad Aussies have to pay so much of a premium for computers and computer components.

[Snuffy]

Anything by nVidia ... :)

[The General]

If you did have a longing for the 8800GT, which needs a PCI-e slot, you could do what I did for my son and buy a relatively inexpensive motherboard. If you're a penny pincher like me and use AMD processors, I purchased a Gigabyte GA-M61P-S Slot AM2 nVidea motherboard for $74.99 from NewEgg and it has a PCI-e slot to run the 8800GT. There are other inexpensive but highly effective motherboards that will work with other microprocessors. The way computers are made today, doing a motherboard transplant is not a job you have to be afraid of.
Thanks Maerean_M & R.R.

I just did what you suggest and put an ASROCK Motherboard in and bought a second-hand 1.6Ghz Core 2 Duo. All works ok. However, I don't have any DDR2 Ram yet and am thinking about getting the 2.6 Ghz Processor. Would the DDR2 Ram really make an improvement to SH4. I even bought a new 450W Power supply because on my old system the polygons started to breakdown after playing a short while, I was told the processor (Pentium 4 3.4 Ghz)was too hot. However, the same thing still happens after about 40 mins, which is a little disheartnening. What do you think the problem is? The Processor, the Card, or the memory?

[Rockin Robbins]

What is your ASRock mb's serial number, what kind and amount of memory do you have now and what kind of graphics card(s)? Need details, man! In the meantime I'm looking up ASRock specs.

[The General]

Here are the details from e-bay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200143719859

I only have 1.5 Gig of DDR1 Memory.

I have a Nvidia 7600 GT 256Mb PCI-Ex Card.

Yeah, I'm trying to eradicate the polygon breakdown in time for Patch 1.4. I've already spent alot of cash and can't believe I'm having the same problem with virtually an entirely new system! Hmmm, I wonder if the problem is I'm using my old cooling fan?:hmm:

[swdw]

The General

On the memory- DDR and DDR2 have different pin configurations, so they aren't interchangeable.

Your issue with the polygon rendering messing up sounds like a heat issue more than anything else.

Try this- run the computer with the case cover off and see what happens. If the problem occurs again, set a small desk fan where it can blow on the graphics card and the cpu (a lot of computers sit where the air space around them is dead, so they'll still create warm air around them. See if the problem persists. If the problem does not occur again- it's heat. If the problem continues, then you are most likely having a graphics card issue. The CPU overheating will cause problems other than dropped polygons as will the memory.

Heat issues can be because you:
1. need a better CPU/GPU cooler or
2. Need better case ventilation

I cheated on my new system. I bought a hard drive cooler- 3 two inch fans that sit where the cover on the hard drive slot would be. But there's no HD behind them. Since heat collects near the top of the case- where many CPU's sit. the fans are mounted in the top bay. Right now they're pulling cool air in. But I'm going to reverse the wires since they're dc fans and have them suck the warm air out of the top of the case and see if that drops the temp even more. Adding the fan dropped my CPU temp by about 5 degrees, which since it's a low power CPU with pretty good cooling to start with, kinda surprised me. Also dropped the video card temp a few degrees.

Just remember, the greatest heat sink/cooler in the world doesn't do much good if it's recirculating warm air. Make sure you have at least one extra case fan. 2's better. Case air temp is the reason the more expensive CPU/GPU coolers pull air from outside the case by having a opening, or tube connected to an opening, at one of the unused card slots.

Standard computers and cases come set up for the type of heat you get from running spreadsheets, not computational intensive 3D games.

Good Luck

[The General]

Thanks SWDW,

I'll try that. In fact, so sick of overheating am I, I'm thinking of using liquid Nitrogen! The Asrock board I'm using comes with slots for DDR and DDR2 I only have DDR1 at the moment. Do you think Having DDR2 would help matters with the anmount of work the CPU is doing, thus keeping it cooler?

[swdw]

You will see a speed difference, how much I'm not sure. But keep in mind that memory speed and disk access are the 2 biggest bottlenecks in any system. So shifting from DDR to DDR2 will cause a speed increase. Here's the difference in DDR2 and DDR

(Deleted a portion- answered wrong due to brain fart- not enough caffiene)
Go here for DDR vs DDR2 explanation
http://www.overclockercafe.com/Articles/DDR_vs_DDR2/index.htm

At any rate, on my MB, the actual clock speed for the memory bus was reported as 400 MHz, but the memory was DDR2, so it's call DDR2-800 because it's capable of transfering data 800 million times a second with a 400 MHz clock.

Hope this clears that part up for you.

BTW- if you do have a heat issue- I'd lay money its on the video card. CPU/memory overheating usually results in complete lockups, crashes, and in bad cases, a refusal to reboot until they cool down.

However, one other thing came to mind- if you have a utility for monitoring your power supply voltages, see what the video card is being fed. The supply voltage may be borderline and this can also cause problems when things get warm. As things heat up, they draw more curretn which can cause a voltage droop in a poorly regulated powere supply. Hopefully your bios gives you voltage tweaking capabilities if the voltage is on the low end.

On a side note, cuz some people may be thinking about this- DDR3 reads and writes data the same as DDR2. It's just capable of running at much higher clock speed because of reduced voltage and internal chip topography (so it's not interchangeable with DDR2). You should see DDR3 1600 next year which runs at a bus clock speed of a true 800MHz.

[The General]

However, one other thing came to mind- if you have a utility for monitoring your powersupply voltages, see what the video card is being fed. It may be borderline and this can also cause problems when things get warm. Hopefully your bios gives you voltage tweaking capabilities if the voltage is on the low end.Hmm, this sounds interesting, but complicated, how would one approach such a task?

[swdw]

However, one other thing came to mind- if you have a utility for monitoring your powersupply voltages, see what the video card is being fed. It may be borderline and this can also cause problems when things get warm. Hopefully your bios gives you voltage tweaking capabilities if the voltage is on the low end.Hmm, this sounds interesting, but complicated, how would one approach such a task?
For monitoring, try this utility by Intel since you have an intel board
http://majorgeeks.com/Intel_Active_Monitor_d3251.html

How you make changes varies with manufacturers. Boot to the bios and see if it gives you options there. If it does, you may be able to make changes with a utility while in windows (Nforce boards come with such a utility if you have a board geared for overclocking, don't know about the intel boards though)

Note for anyone doing this- make small changes in voltage unless you find someone that gives you their settings with a working system. You can sometimes pick a voltage within the allowable band that may fry your hardware if you you make a big jump. Patience is the key. If going all the way to max in multiple steps doesn't help, go back to the defaults.

[Reece]

I just purchased a HIS IceQ ATI Turbo X1950 Pro 512mb AGP card and very happy, I would recommend changing motherboard, ram & PCI-E video card but if, like me, a little low on funds then this is a way out, this is supposed to be the fastest AGP card still manufactured, my old X700 Pro card test results being 1981 with 3DMark03 compared to 14711, for more tests see here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=123685&highlight=Reece
And a good review here:
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&number=1&artpage=2407&articID=553

[Bum]

I'm getting good results with the Nvidia 7600GT and SH4

[Argus00]

Right now I'm running SH4 on a 7900GT, and I'm happy. Will get an 8800GT soon, as I want to try out some upcoming games.

[Hartmann]

Some good advice for AGP slot ??i want to replace my old 6600 gt

What about the 7600 gs ? works well with sh4 ?? or another good equivalent for ATI..

[maerean_m]

You will see a speed difference, how much I'm not sure. But keep in mind that memory speed and disk access are the 2 biggest bottlenecks in any system. So shifting from DDR to DDR2 will cause a speed increase. Here's the difference in DDR2 and DDR

Computers shift data on the clock pulse of the memory bus. We'll use 400MHz since it's an even number. The clock pulse looks like this.
http://www.kickinbak.com/posts/ddr.png


That is very wrong.

There is something like that happening, but it's about the old SDR and the newer DDR SDRAM (also known as DDR or DDR1).

The single data rate memory (SDR) was used until Intel Pentium III and AMD Athlon (inclusive).

The double data memory (DDR SDRAM) has been in use since Pentium IV and Athlon XP.

The difference between DDR and DDR2 is that the latter uses a lower voltage and can achieve higher frequencies, but they are both double-data-rate.

You can find out more on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR_SDRAM).

[-Pv-]

What's your favorite flavor of ice cream? Vid cards are a very personal and subjective decision when price and the capability of your Main Board are factored in. More often than not, buy the most expensive card your MB can handle you can afford to get something you can live with for a while.
-Pv-

[Brenjen]

My water cooled & over-clocked eVGA 7950GX2 shreds every game I've played yet with all settings on high or custom (maxed out of course)

[swdw]

That is very wrong.

There is something like that happening, but it's about the old SDR and the newer DDR SDRAM (also known as DDR or DDR1).

The single data rate memory (SDR) was used until Intel Pentium III and AMD Athlon (inclusive).

The double data memory (DDR SDRAM) has been in use since Pentium IV and Athlon XP.

The difference between DDR and DDR2 is that the latter uses a lower voltage and can achieve higher frequencies, but they are both double-data-rate.

You can find out more on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR_SDRAM).
Oh crap- you're right- that's what I get for trying to remember technical stuff before I've had my morning dose of coffee. Brain dead without caffiene:dead: Edited the topic.

let me wipe the egg off my face;) Thanks for the correction maerean_m:up:

Oh, as far as AGP video cards go, I can give you a suggestion of what NOT to buy.

The Ati 2400 is an abysmal performer in the tests I've seen. The 2600 is ok and is only a little slower than the 8600 GT, so it isn't bad, but reviews on Newegg are slamming both cards for driver issues. That will change with time, but since the 8600 G whatever is not available in AGP, the 2600XT is the only option that gives you ok performance and DX10

Check here for speed rview Hothardware review (http://www.hothardware.com/articles/ATI_Radeon_HD_2600_and_2400_Performance/?page=5)

[Rockin Robbins]

DANGER WILL ROBINSON! Your ASRock motherboard is advertised as having a 16x PCI-e slot. It does not. Here's part of a review from Newegg, backed up with lots of identical statements, "Cons: pci-e is 4x, not 16x, finicky about ram, finicky about video cards it will accept. Too big for some cases. Drive controllers are a stretch for short cables."

In addition, the board tends to be very finicky about which memory it will allow to run, refusing to boot with some memory which was confirmed to be good on another board. In any event, it will not run the 8800GT without full bandwidth PCI-e 16x.

[Melonfish]

Assrock? pah, go ASUS i swear by them (in the good way)
my board was a steal at £46 odd. DDR 2, AM2 socket PCI-E 16X (not that any cards really utilise full 16X yet)
twin channels on the ram too. uber fast fsb.
grabbed it, my 4200+ am2 duel core, 2gb corsair ram and a 600w silverstone PSU (modular) for under £300.
got a 7800GTX off a m8 and sh4 looks sweet in 1280X1024 with all the shiney bits turned on and all the mods turned up to max. frame rates are still mid 40's when there's a million things in the water burning too.
just got to SLI with another 7800GTX and i'm laughing.
pete

[Torplexed]

Thanks for the voluminous feedback all. Card talk always gets so technical, and sadly I'm one of those down around the fire=bad, tree=pretty level when it comes to understanding it. I think I'll try to find the GeForce 7600 GT recommended by some.:yep:

[Rockin Robbins]

Like I said, I have two and I'm very happy. There's always room for improvement, but a good deal is always a good deal. I usually get more satisfaction from getting the last generation's barn burner at a cheap price than I do for spending big bucks for the latest and greatest. ANYBODY can pay too much. It takes skill to buy wisely to save a bundle and still build a killer machine.:up: You'll be happy with your choice.

[Rockin Robbins]

Assrock? pah, go ASUS i swear by them (in the good way)
my board was a steal at £46 odd. DDR 2, AM2 socket PCI-E 16X (not that any cards really utilise full 16X yet)
twin channels on the ram too. uber fast fsb.
grabbed it, my 4200+ am2 duel core, 2gb corsair ram and a 600w silverstone PSU (modular) for under £300.
got a 7800GTX off a m8 and sh4 looks sweet in 1280X1024 with all the shiney bits turned on and all the mods turned up to max. frame rates are still mid 40's when there's a million things in the water burning too.
just got to SLI with another 7800GTX and i'm laughing.
pete

Just another instance of getting a great machine for not so much cash! I love Asus boards and I have bought two Gigabyte boards that were really good. I wouldn't have any reason to look outside those two manufacturers with my great experiences with both.

Frankly I expected more of a kick from using SLi than I got. It sounds like those with a single 7600GT are doing pretty well. I do run too much junk in the background though:p.

[The General]

Thanks for the help everyone. I tried being brave, building my own system, only to get burned :nope: . Next time I'm gonna ask you guys first :up: .

[Wilcke]

Just for kicks....here are myspecs and this runs SH4 at 1280 by 960 resolution, with all sliders maxed out and Hi Res Foam....FPS are 30-40 at sea.

AMD 64 4800 Dual Core
eVga 7800GT
4 gigs of RAM

on an ASUS Premium MoBo.

Just bought a BFG 7950 GT KO on eBay for $145 USD. The 7800 GT's are dirt cheap, the 7900GS is dirt cheap, the 7900GTX are just to expensive, wicked fast and run to hot!

Remember Fast CPU.....plus.....PCI-Express 16X....and a decent VidCard will yield good performance. Anything else and you have a bottle neck and you will be moving sliders to the left and unclicking boxes.

Its a ton of fun to build computers at home, frustrating at times but fun! Ebay is a great way to buy used and sell used stuff.

Enjoy!

Wilcke

[stabiz]

If you have PCI Express, there is only one card at the moment: Geforce 8800GT. It costs less than half of what the 8800GTX costs, and performs almost identically. Its just awesome.

I am getting one for sure.

[rrmelend]

I keep hearing about the 8600GT and the problems it has but all the reviews I see all mention that it is a decent mid-range card. What problems does this card have and does anyone who reads this thread actually have this card? if so what is your opinion of it? I'm on a serious budget and I am not a heavy gamer, this is basically the only game I play and I was looking at either the 8600GT or the 7600GT.

[TheSatyr]

I recently bought a new pc and I'm running the 8800GTX 768mb card. It cost nearly as much as my pc itself,but I consider it a good investment since it shouldn't need to be replaced for a year or two.(Hopefully). And I have yet to find a game that puts much stress on the card.

The downside to the 8800GTX (besides the price) is that the card is longer than other vid cards and it isn't going to fit in some pcs.

[Torps]

Haven't played SH4 much since it came out due to sluggish performance. I hate having having to restart the computer everythime I exit this sim or GWX, because the performance takes sucha hit. I'm currently got a 256 MB DDR ATI Radeon 9800XT card installed. What out there would be more ideal? :hmm:

At this point I would recommend a 8800GTX, However be aware the new DX 10.1 coming out soon is not DX 10 Compatible. Nvidia should be coming out with the 9800 series sometime soon and ATI will make an annoucement on Nov 15th about its 3800 HD Series.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/10/29/amd_hd_3800_to_support_dx_10/index.html

So you might just want to wait.

[stabiz]

I keep hearing about the 8600GT and the problems it has but all the reviews I see all mention that it is a decent mid-range card. What problems does this card have and does anyone who reads this thread actually have this card? if so what is your opinion of it? I'm on a serious budget and I am not a heavy gamer, this is basically the only game I play and I was looking at either the 8600GT or the 7600GT.

I would seriously consider getting the budget version of the 8800 in stead. (The 320MB one) I have this now, and it runs SH4 very well, which the 8600 will not do.

With "well" I mean decent frames even in heavy situations, and 100+ fps at sea.

The 8600 is not a good card.

http://home.online.no/%7Earefjor/GRP/3dmark_01.png

[Torplexed]

Alas, my four year old motherboard doesn't have PCI-e slots. That 8800GTX is a huge card...with a price to boot. I'd probably have to upgrade my power supply.

Meh. Maybe just better to go back to my original idea of just buying a new computer some time next year.

[stabiz]

Yeah, PCI Express is the way to go. But I am amazed by that 8800GT (not GTX), it costs less than 50% of the GTX. It has the new G90 chip - or something like that - which requires less heating, and thus it is a smaller card too.

[Hartmann]

I only found for agp, the 7600 gs and 7600 gt but only with 256 mb of DDR 2 memory, for 87 and 94 € euros

if i want a more powerful card i need to change a lot of things like motherboard,cpu, and memory, because they are in PCI slot. :hmm:

could i note the difference in sh4 compared with my 6600 gt card ??
i only have 10 frames in huge task forces and 20 in open seas.

thanks :roll:

[swdw]

Alas, my four year old motherboard doesn't have PCI-e slots. That 8800GTX is a huge card...with a price to boot. I'd probably have to upgrade my power supply.

Meh. Maybe just better to go back to my original idea of just buying a new computer some time next year.
Then go to Newegg x1950 list (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=x1950&x=0&y=0), they have an x1950 GT 256 MB AGP for only $113 (only about 2% slower than an x1950 pro- but reviews say it's easy to OC to get pro frame rates). Or you can get a pro for $135. 512MB versions will run about $150. The 1950 clobbers the 8600. I have a PCi-e x1950 pro 512MB and its an absolute screamer, even with all of the hi res ROW stuff.

You won't get the sun glare looking directly at the sun, but the game is beautiful otherwise (look at kriller's screen shot's). The best prices are on the Sapphire which have great drivers and come with every adapter/connector you'll need.

These are Dx9 cards, but unless you plan on upgrading to windows vista, you won't have Dx10 anyway. THe only AGP Dx10 card which will run games ok (note that's ok, not pretty good or excellent) that's even moderately priced is the ATi 2600 series. And at that you need to find an overclocked Pro or an XT version for the best chance. But warning- you'll be in driver hell for a couple more months.

So if you don't care about Dx10, get the 1950.

[Rockin Robbins]

swdw, this is apparently a strict nVidia zone. Mention of... what's that other.....oh, AMD?..... no they're the new owners..... ATI yeah, they're the ones, is strictly verboten.

Since you we not aware that we only worship the uber-cards here, we will let you live. But from now on, mentioners in this thread of that other graphics card manufacturer will be forced to play SH4 in 16 color, 640x480 graphics for a month.:doh: You have been warned. Have a nice day.:yep:

On a serious note, my card of choice looks like it would be EVGA's 512mb version of the 8800GT. I'm trying not to buy one, so I'm not looking up serial numbers or the like. They have 3 flavors from normal to hot rod. I love my 7600GTs from EVGA and I'd go there again in a flash for my next graphics card......some......day.....nooooooooooooooo! Can't spend money, my power supply just died a horrible death trying to keep up with the 2 graphics cards I'm using now.:dead:

[swdw]

swdw, this is apparently a strict nVidia zone. Mention of... what's that other.....oh, AMD?..... no they're the new owners..... ATI yeah, they're the ones, is strictly verboten.

Since you we not aware that we only worship the uber-cards here, we will let you live. But from now on, mentioners in this thread of that other graphics card manufacturer will be forced to play SH4 in 16 color, 640x480 graphics for a month.:doh: You have been warned. Have a nice day.:yep:
ROFLMAO :rotfl::rotfl:

Good thing I wasn't drinking my coffe when I read this, I would have been wiping it off my monitor and keyboard. :D

will be forced to play SH4 in 16 color, 640x480 graphics for a month.:doh: not so- I played Silent Service on an Amiga- I played in 64 colors (but may only have been 32- twas a long time ago)- neener neener :p

See, I've always been a hardware rebel ;)

[John Channing]

But from now on, mentioners in this thread of that other graphics card manufacturer will be forced to play SH4 in 16 color, 640x480 graphics for a month.:doh: You have been warned. Have a nice day.:yep:



Gee... I was under the impression that if you were using one of "that other graphics card manufacturer"s products that was all you could play SH4 at!


heeheehee


JCC

[swdw]

On a serious note, my card of choice looks like it would be EVGA's 512mb version of the 8800GT.

It is a great card- but no AGP for those w/o PCI-e. That's why I think the 1950 is the best option for an AGP owner- but then, that's like telling a Chevy fan he should buy Ford trucks. :D

[SteamWake]

Alas, my four year old motherboard doesn't have PCI-e slots. That 8800GTX is a huge card...with a price to boot. I'd probably have to upgrade my power supply.

Meh. Maybe just better to go back to my original idea of just buying a new computer some time next year.

Sounds like the best course of action to me too.

[rrmelend]

Well hearing about how the 8 Series cards will not support the newest version of DX10 when it comes out is holding me back from getting one of those cards not to mention the price (high school teacher, new baby, mortgage). I guess I'll start trying to find a nice used 7600GT on Ebay. It will do the job better than the on-board 6150 I have until I can save up enough to build my own system.

[Rockin Robbins]

Well hearing about how the 8 Series cards will not support the newest version of DX10 when it comes out is holding me back from getting one of those cards not to mention the price (high school teacher, new baby, mortgage). I guess I'll start trying to find a nice used 7600GT on Ebay. It will do the job better than the on-board 6150 I have until I can save up enough to build my own system.

That's a great holding pattern, one I'm in right now. However the $250 - $300 price of the 8800GT cards, plus EVGA's excellent tweaking has me tempted. I'm going to wait for the lower number after the premiums being charged, even by Newegg (boooooooo!!!!!!:down: Newegg and premium are two words that should not appear in the same sentence). My 7600 GT cards were about $125 apiece and I got a $30 rebate on one of them back in February. See what happens when you gotta have it now? Wow! I coulda had a V-8800GT! (of course I would be playing at 16 color 640 x 480 for nine months too). You can't win in the old graphics card game.:dead:

[d@rk51d3]

- but then, that's like telling a Chevy fan he should buy Ford trucks. :D

He should. FORD:rock:



:D :D :D

[Von Tonner]

Well hearing about how the 8 Series cards will not support the newest version of DX10 when it comes out is holding me back

Yes, that is what I have also read in these forums but is it true? Other people I speak to have not heard this. I am wanting to get the geforce 8800 gt 512mb but after reading about the non support for DX10 makes me cautious. Some people tell me it is not a big deal anyway even if it is true and the 8800 is not compatible with DX10. Where does the truth lie?

[Cap'n Spanky]

There's several links to reviews of the new 8800 on the Nvidia site; but, here's one from Gamespot.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6181908/index.html

Even though I just got a new 8600 I'm planning on picking one of these up just to "see the difference". I play World in Conflict and the 8600 is OK but doesn't really make my socks go up and down.

[Rockin Robbins]

Where does wisdom come from? Wisdom comes from experience. Where does experience come from? Experience comes from stupid mistakes.:eek:

Let us suppose, like me, you want to try something unconventional, like (since this is an nVidia thread only:arrgh!:) putting two 7600GT cards in an SLi configuration. Great idea! Might stave off obsolescence. Take two adequate cards and make a very adequate card.

Enter: the law of unintended consequences. For each intended consequence of a planned action, there will be three unintended ones. Two of them will be bad.

While my machine initally ran like a scared rabbit, in the past month, I encountered mysterious slowdowns, interruptions, and on occassion my machine would shut completely off without warning and without going through the normal Windows shutdown procedure. On Monday I came home from work and my graphics were all screwy. That's a highly technical term I won't take the time to explain right now. When I investigated, I found that my machine had disabled SLI and only one of the graphics cards was working. Windows device manager couldn't find the other one. I went online to look up warranty info on the graphics card when......total instantaneous system shutdown, nuclear attack type. Hit the switch and the system was dead. No fans started, so I knew that the power supply was toast. Why, on a 450 watt system only 8 months old?

Lots of you can answer that question, but many can't, so I'll continue. On investigation, I found that two fairly high level graphics cards like my EVGA 7600GT's suck power like a five year-old sucks a lolipop....CRUNCH!!! When you're hooking up state of the art graphics cards, take a quick look at your power supply and see if it supplies enough amperage to power them without destruction. Just another lesson from the school of stupid, but not obvious until the damage is done:88), mistakes.

Now I'm without Silent Hunter 4 until Newegg sends me a mondo powerful power supply with 22A on each of its two 12 volt rails.:arrgh!:

Edit: sorry about the colors. If you're typing in-line and change colors, you can't go back to default. Lousy editor.

[Cap'n Spanky]

Good point RR, I should have mentioned that your PS must be able to support the vid card.. :oops:

[Rockin Robbins]

Good point RR, I should have mentioned that your PS must be able to support the vid card.. :oops:

So. It's your fault!

[mcarlsonus]

I've been down this road SO many times. Some suggestions:
1. Hard drive speed: you won't believe how important this is to SH4. Out of frustration, I once moved the guy to a standalone external 5400 HD. It was a terrible experience. SO, I moved it back to the resident 7200RPM SATA drive - in its own folder (no more \Program Files\Ubisoft\SHIV\ for me!)
2. "Teacher": my board also came with the lame-o 6150LE video chipset. I can tell you from experience it's good for small spreadsheets - and nothing else. Thankfully, I had a PCI-E 16x slot, so filled it with a 7600GT board. Although still somewhat challenged in TC's above 2048, overall, it does quite well, and I'm running just about everything to the max (I have a 22" widescreen monitor, and I'm taking advantage of that!) Which is a nice segue to:
3. DX10 v. 2 isn't compatible with DX10 v."now"? Is this true? First they tell us to hold off on MAJOR video card purchases until the DX10-capable boards come down in price. Sure, it'll be some time before DX10 will be totally adopted, but my goal here is to avoid building or buying a new computer every year! But, what's this with compatibility? Who's running the graphic card standards commission? Microsoft?
4. POWER SUPPLY!! Very, VERY important, but do some research before you buy. Use impartial review sites. You would not believe how many PS have inflated wattage ratings, or how many are incredibly badly designed or (literally) glued together! Here's a favorite: www.hardwaresecrets.com (http://www.hardwaresecrets.com) . In my case, I replaced the stock 300W generic, hand-crank PS with a mighty 550W Antec NeoHE. Plenty of quality power and it's simply idling on my load. Very cool (temperature-wise, as well!)
5. Memory. Here we go again. As previously posted, DDR2 is not slot compatible with DDR. Most of us AMD fans are well aware of this already (I KNOW this is supposed to be an nVidea discussion and AMD owns ATI, LOL!). But, WAIT! Before you answer! There's the issue of DDR3 and its use in the newer AMD AM2+ socket designed for the new Phenom series. I'm not doing anything with my memory unless someone has a spare couple gigs of DDR2 5300/5400 they're willing to let go for the price of postage! I'm currently running 2 G, by the way. Not fast RAM, obviously, but RAM nonetheless. FOR VISTA USERS: critical issue this RAM thang! CLOSE THAT SIDEBAR!! The freakin' sidebar uses nearly a gig of RAM on its own - and that's with only four "gadgets." In short, SH4 and sidebar more than clobber whatever's left of the 2GB after the normal processes/services load up.

GAWD! I SO wish I'd gone to cosmetologist school! Just couldn't pass the entrance exam...

[DeepSix]

FWIW, I'm running SH4 on a pair of 7900GTX cards despite the fact that that model isn't mentioned in Uber's - ah, Ubi's - list of supported cards. It's cool, quiet, factory overclocked, handles TC quite well (even over 2048) most of the time.... still pricey (about $400 judging from a pricegrabber search) but not nearly as much so as the 8xxx cards.

And Torplexed I'm sorry to say it's PCIe, too. I did what you're talking about - started off shopping for a card and ended up waiting six months and buying an all new rig. I think 7900GTX is still a solid card (in my highly unqualified-to-say-so opinion); it's only a year or so old. DX-10 is not something I care much about, though.

[Powerthighs]

What's the easiest way to check your system power requirements and see if your PS is good enough? I have the generic 300W power supply that came with my machine, so now fancy power utilities that I know of.

[Rockin Robbins]

FWIW, I'm running SH4 on a pair of 7900GTX cards despite the fact that that model isn't mentioned in Uber's - ah, Ubi's - list of supported cards. It's cool, quiet, factory overclocked, handles TC quite well (even over 2048) most of the time.... still pricey (about $400 judging from a pricegrabber search) but not nearly as much so as the 8xxx cards.

Yup, you got caught too, in the "gotta have it now, let's go SLi" deal and spent $400 (I spent $225), ending up with less graphics power than a $300 (that's WITH the added on premium of about $30 over SRP) 8800GT. At least I have company.:nope: Hope you did better buying a power supply than I did.:up:

[Rockin Robbins]

What's the easiest way to check your system power requirements and see if your PS is good enough? I have the generic 300W power supply that came with my machine, so now fancy power utilities that I know of.
OK, first you'll have to delve deep into the specs of your target graphics card to see what its power requirements are. I just did that for my 7600GTs after my power supply augered in (good timing award goes to.... the envelope please...... ROCKIN ROBBINS!!!!!:up:). EVGA says at least.... well, let's quote 'em on the product specs page:

Requirements http://www.evga.com/images/common/blt_subnav.gif Minimum of a 350 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 18 Amp Amps.)
Minimum 400 Watt for SLI mode system.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 24 Amp Amps.)

And I had a 380 watt power supply (label vs the 450 watt claim on the case advertisement) with 15A of current. Can you say bzzzt, bzzzzzzzzzzt, kablooey? Well, it took 8 months. I guess I should be happy. Wondered why I had no luck overclocking...

Now look at your power supply. The amps you are looking for are the +12V amps. Probably the sticker on the power supply has the info. If not, check out the specs online to see if you are on death row. :-? My new one has 2 rails of 22A +12V. I think I have it covered this time. :p

[SteamWake]

I popped in a 7600gt without even thinking about the power supply. I feel like an idiot cause well Im an electrical engineer (amongst other things).

It ran... with the fans spinning like crazy. My fist thought was "Wow this thing is noisy" !

Anyhow all the noise quit with a loud snap and pop and the smell of ozone in about 1 1/2 hours. Forutnatly the fuse in the psu actually did its job and saved me from a total system melt down. After replacing with an adaquate psu the fans were much more quiet.

Trying to determine how much power supply a computer actually uses is really a tricky thing. there are so many variables. How much does your fixed disk draw, The nic card, usb buss, sound card, video card, ram buss, and on and on. Not to mention there are several voltage outputs and its a 'switched' power supply which without going into details makes it even more difficult to figure out. To put it briefly the sum is greater than its parts.

I dont know if there are any 'power monitoring utilitys' out there. Id be interested in seeing one.

This is as close as I could get. As you can see its kind of involved.

http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,,766_822_ADM9264,00.html

[Cap'n Spanky]

Good point RR, I should have mentioned that your PS must be able to support the vid card.. :oops:

So. It's your fault!


ACKKKK!!

busted~~~

[rrmelend]

Crappy 300W PSU. Looks like I'll be saving my pennies and waiting about a year to build a new system from scatch. I've been looking at this site though and finding reviews on line and they do not seem that bad. Basically the least expensive way that I've found. http://www.ecollegepc.com/ I'm also going to see if any of our computer techs we have on campus can build me a custom pc also.

[Hartmann]

I have a 550 w PSU since i buy a 6600 gt, so i hope that this unit can work with a 7600 card

[DeepSix]

Yup, you got caught too, in the "gotta have it now, let's go SLi" deal and spent $400 (I spent $225), ending up with less graphics power than a $300 (that's WITH the added on premium of about $30 over SRP) 8800GT. At least I have company.:nope: Hope you did better buying a power supply than I did.:up:

I bought my card before there was such a thing as an 8xxx series, so it wasn't like there was a choice of one or the other, if that's what you meant. I'm not really sure.... But... thanks.:D

[mcarlsonus]

...PLEASE check the independent reviews, like the one I included in my novella earlier. You could easilly buy a 500-watt power supply, only to find it maxed out at less than half that.
Outside of specialized equipment, I don't believe there's any way to test actual output. Guess if one could figure out how to put a 500W load on a 550W-rated PS, that might tell the tale, but... Not to beat a dead horse, but, DO check those reviews! Don't settle for what a customer wrote on a retail website. Very often, those opinions are skewed because people are more likely to write 'em when they have a bad experience!
IMHO, I've been building systems for personal use since the '90's. I've always used Antec's high-end PS's. But, I've read up and heard great things about Ultra and OCX (yeah-they're "making" PS's now!) One thing to keep in mind: many power supplies are made by the same company and labeled with another company's moniker. Even if the wattage rating is the same and the actual manufacturer is the same, the component quality may not be identical.
Finally, buy as much QUALITY power as you can afford! Example: why buy a 400 watter when the same company's 550 is only $20 more?
Anyway, y'all, paying a couple hundred for a good PS is nothing compared to paying $400-$1,000 for a couple rockin' video cards! The alternative is to keep replacing the power supplies, everytime HOPING the thing failed without taking everything else with it!

[Rockin Robbins]

...PLEASE check the independent reviews, like the one I included in my novella earlier. You could easilly buy a 500-watt power supply, only to find it maxed out at less than half that.
Outside of specialized equipment, I don't believe there's any way to test actual output. Guess if one could figure out how to put a 500W load on a 550W-rated PS, that might tell the tale, but... Not to beat a dead horse, but, DO check those reviews! ...
Finally, buy as much QUALITY power as you can afford! Example: why buy a 400 watter when the same company's 550 is only $20 more?
Anyway, y'all, paying a couple hundred for a good PS is nothing compared to paying $400-$1,000 for a couple rockin' video cards! The alternative is to keep replacing the power supplies, everytime HOPING the thing failed without taking everything else with it!

CERTAINLY buy the sub $50.00 power supplies with trepidation and dread, for those are worth what you are paying. It is VERY DIFFICULT to get under $100 and get a power supply that is worthy of connecting big money graphics cards to. I love a bargain, but my bargain might just have taken down some other computer components on its way to the big outlet in the sky.

[mcarlsonus]

After power supply, heat's the big problem! For example, in an average case, take one AMD 6400+ and a couple nVidea based 8800's. In ten minutes, you have a preheated oven ready for making yer breakfast!

Your advice on PS's, by the way, should be heeded by everyone!

[Reno]

Some initial 8800gt users report problems with overheating. To add insult to injury the cooling fan during gaming has been described as sounding like a Harrier taking off or a leaf blower. The card only has a single slot cooler so plan on spending some of the saved money in after market stuff to keep the temps down. I'd hold off on the GT's until more info from actual users becomes available.

[Rockin Robbins]

Some initial 8800gt users report problems with overheating. To add insult to injury the cooling fan during gaming has been described as sounding like a Harrier taking off or a leaf blower. The card only has a single slot cooler so plan on spending some of the saved money in after market stuff to keep the temps down. I'd hold off on the GT's until more info from actual users becomes available.

Unlike ATI, which actually produces graphics cards, nVidia does not actually produce them. Instead, there are dozens (actually probably hundreds) of companies making graphics cards with nVidia chipsets. So your comment about overheating cards with leaf blower fans may be true for one company, but not be true for another. The GTs produce much less heat than their much more expensive predecessors, the famous or infamous (depending on whether you could afford them or not!) 8800GTX, so the companies shouldn't have a problem with it. That means they definitely will:rotfl:.

I wouldn't have a problem buying one from EVGA, or some of the other leading manufacturers with clear track records with previous cards. I'd be very careful about trying to save $20 with a second tier company. Being a pioneer here will definitely attract the arrows. But since my powersupply bit the big one, I'm already a victim.

My personal course is going to be to back off with what I have until the reliability reviews come in and the nasty premiums come off the prices of the 8800GT cards. Look around. Stocks are low everywhere and lots of stores are sold out. There will be plenty of good information around when the prices are $50.00 less.:up:

[TheSatyr]

I've had zero overheating problems with my 8800GTX,and I've tested some rather graphics intense games on it. All in all,I'm very satisfied with that card.

[Bilge_Rat]

I picked up a 8800 GT last week for $260. It is a significant improvement over my previous card. Visually, everything is beautiful with no technical issues. I have ROW installed.

At 1280x960, 4xfsaa, 4x aniso, max graphics, I get fps of 90-100 on the bridge in the middle of the ocean with no ships around and 160-180 in the command room, using the ingame FPS counter. I will have to bump up the res to 16x12 to give the card a workout.

The card sounds like a chainsaw when I turn it on, but becomes quiet after 15-20 seconds when windows takes over. It runs very cool and quiet most of the time.

I have not played SH4 that much since I got it since I have been testing various games on the card. So far, it handles everything with ease, the only game which gave it a workout was the Crysis demo, but even there, I can run at 1280x960, 2xFSAA, "Very High" and get fps of 28-30.

[Rockin Robbins]

I picked up a 8800 GT last week for $260. It is a significant improvement over my previous card. Visually, everything is beautiful with no technical issues. I have ROW installed.

At 1280x960, 4xfsaa, 4x aniso, max graphics, I get fps of 90-100 on the bridge in the middle of the ocean with no ships around and 160-180 in the command room, using the ingame FPS counter. I will have to bump up the res to 16x12 to give the card a workout.

The card sounds like a chainsaw when I turn it on, but becomes quiet after 15-20 seconds when windows takes over. It runs very cool and quiet most of the time.

I have not played SH4 that much since I got it since I have been testing various games on the card. So far, it handles everything with ease, the only game which gave it a workout was the Crysis demo, but even there, I can run at 1280x960, 2xFSAA, "Very High" and get fps of 28-30.
What brand card do you have and where did you get it? If Windows ratchets back the fan overheating isn't an issue there!:up:

@Satyr: that's why I find it difficult to believe there could be widespread problems with the GT cards overheating.

[Bilge_Rat]

I picked up a 8800 GT last week for $260. It is a significant improvement over my previous card. Visually, everything is beautiful with no technical issues. I have ROW installed.

At 1280x960, 4xfsaa, 4x aniso, max graphics, I get fps of 90-100 on the bridge in the middle of the ocean with no ships around and 160-180 in the command room, using the ingame FPS counter. I will have to bump up the res to 16x12 to give the card a workout.

The card sounds like a chainsaw when I turn it on, but becomes quiet after 15-20 seconds when windows takes over. It runs very cool and quiet most of the time.

I have not played SH4 that much since I got it since I have been testing various games on the card. So far, it handles everything with ease, the only game which gave it a workout was the Crysis demo, but even there, I can run at 1280x960, 2xFSAA, "Very High" and get fps of 28-30.
What brand card do you have and where did you get it? If Windows ratchets back the fan overheating isn't an issue there!:up:

@Satyr: that's why I find it difficult to believe there could be widespread problems with the GT cards overheating.

EVGA Superclocked 8800 GT which runs at 650 mhz rather than the 600 mhz reference design. The card itself very quiet during during gameplay.

I ordered from NCIX in Canada on launch day, oct. 29. Since then the price has gone up $20, but it should go back down when supply catches up with demand and the new ATI cards come out.

[SteamWake]

Wait till DX10 becomes a requirement and not a desire.

Prices on those cards will drop like a rock.

[Rockin Robbins]

Wait till DX10 becomes a requirement and not a desire.

Prices on those cards will drop like a rock.

Another 18 months oughta do it for DX10 necessity.:-j

[mcarlsonus]

Not too many months ago, one couldn't touch a DX10 card for less than $5-600!

[Bilge_Rat]

These are heady times for new card buyers.

You can get a 8800 GT that will give you close to 8800 GTX performance for $ 280-$300. It breezes through any of the new cutting edge games, such as the COD4 and Crysis demos. It does'nt even break a sweat running SH4. It will easily last me 12-18 months until the next range of budget cards is released.

ATI is coming out with a HD3870 in a few weeks which, based on info circulating around the web, should have about the same performance as the 8800 GT for about $50 less. Unfortunatily, the games I play tend to run better on NVIDIA hardware.

There are also rumors about more powerful NVIDIA and ATI cards coming out before christmas. Apparently, the move to a smaller die has cut manufacturing costs allowing both NVIDIA and ATI to significantly cut the MSRP and still make a profit.

I hope the ATI card is a success to keep this competition going with NVIDIA, we consumers will all benefit.

[Elder-Pirate]

Alas, my four year old motherboard doesn't have PCI-e slots. That 8800GTX is a huge card...with a price to boot. I'd probably have to upgrade my power supply.

Meh. Maybe just better to go back to my original idea of just buying a new computer some time next year.

Well Torplexed I guess you and I are almost in the same boat. :lurk:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/PC.jpg
I too am the owner of a AGP 4 maybe 5 yr. old motherboard ( Asus A7N8X Deluxe REV 2.0 ) which originally came packed with the BFG Geforce FX 5950 Ultra 256MB AGP and was some kind of card four years ago. Had only one gig of ram and replaced that with 2.5 gigs ram ( DDR SDRAM ) and my now BFG GeForce 7800 GS OC 256MB AGP ( high as I can go for this motherboard....Nvidia that is )

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/7800GS_256_AGP_angle_lg1.jpg

with a new 550 watt Power Supply as the orig. 420 watt at about 12 amps per rail also like Rockin Robbins decided to be buried in the trash can.
I may be taking a chance here though as when I put in this new PS I wasn't thinking straight as it only has 18 amps per 12 volt rail and the 7800 GS OC requires 20 amp per rail. So far SH4 is kicking right along on all 6 cylinders ( Well I don't have a big enough computer for eight cylinders :roll: ) and I've never seen below 22 FPS even in a bloody battle of a screen full of ships and fire all around but on the other hand it never gets above 85 FPS on a calm sea with nothing in sight.
I am going to have to push my old "Alienware" ( full tower ) like this for at least another year.

[Rockin Robbins]

Not too many months ago, one couldn't touch a DX10 card for less than $5-600!
Well, I'm finding out how much 2 7600GTs will cost me when my new power supply arrives hopefully Friday night. Did it take down any graphics cards? That would be bad. A couple of 1 gig memory modules would be painful to replace. Worse than the motherboard. Or the microprocessor. Chances are I'm OK, but my failure to realize how hungry those two graphics cards would be could end up being the cost of an 8800GT.... without the 8800GT. Yuk.:-?

If you think the cost of knowlege is expensive, try the cost of ignorance!:down: And I didn't even get any compensatory sparks, ozone smell, buzzing or flashes. It just shut down. Maybe that is a good sign.:up:

[mcarlsonus]

I have an older computer that's been sitting in reserve doing nothing, so I pulled it out and fired it up. There was a big "pop" from the ATI 9800XT (AGP, of course), so I went out and purchased a $30 "AXLE" (huh???) AGP based on the nVidea 6200, 256MB chipset. I've installed, but haven't fired it up yet.
If the problem was the video card, we'll soon know. But, it'd be interesting to see the framerate differences between the present 4600+ x2, 7200 SATA, 2G 5200 RAM and the old 3200+ x1, 4600 IDE, 2G registered and buffered RAM (NOT speedy, but this old guy was meant to take over server tasks, should that be needed)

[mcarlsonus]

...better to find out now than to fry your brand NEW 8800, eh??

[Torplexed]

Well Torplexed I guess you and I are almost in the same boat. :lurk:
Hehheh. At the time I bought this computer (after the SH2 debacle) it looked like subsims were gonna be rare to nonexistant. I wasn't too concerned with top of the line 3-D rendering power as I'm not big into flight sims or FPSs. Then along comes SH3 and 4. If I'd know they were coming I would have held off. But then it's almost impossible to stay on the bleeding edge of this technology for more than a few months. :lol:

Now I just have to time the purchase of a new computer with the release of the SH4 add-on. :arrgh!:

[Gunner]

Just my 2$ gents, run a EVGA 8800 GTS for the last 4 months, no overheating, no hiccups. 8 x everything Row mod, TM of course:D Most problems that occured with 8800GT overheating is probably a lack of knowledge of user, and R.R .,feel for you mate cause I toasted a system once from L.O.K. and cost mucho $$$. Having said that, leave ye with this thought if you swith from AGP to PCI Express.
Based on a single 8800GTS superclocked 320 MB. Max Setting in game with ROW mod

Make sure you have the right case, Bigger is not always better: harder for fans to rid the heat unless you put more fans = more noise.
My case: Mid size tower with 120MM fan mounted on side.standard 2x case fans
Power supply: 550 W Gamer Xtreme 28A 12v rail
CPU: E6600 Dual core with after market cooler : no overclocking
2 GB ram, thats a no brainer for this game:D
EVGA 8800 GTS 320 MB Factory Superclocked.
MB:Asus PL5D2
O.S: WinXP Sp2

This is not a brag post gents, more of a guidline to those who want to switch from AGP to PCI express, and enjoy the game to its potential.:arrgh!:

[Reno]

At 1280x960, 4xfsaa, 4x aniso, max graphics, I get fps of 90-100 on the bridge in the middle of the ocean with no ships around and 160-180 in the command room, using the ingame FPS counter. I will have to bump up the res to 16x12 to give the card a workout.

1280x960 resolution is not much of a test. How did the "workout" go? What resolution were you able to get before it became unplayable. Did you use AA and AF? When you played a graphically intense program at 1680x1250, as you were planning to do, did the fan begin to sound like a leaf blower? Did it start to overheat? Bilge Rat, you're in an enviable position. You're one of the pioneers of this new card and you can help a lot of people decide if this is for them or not. An honest and accurate account of your experience would really be helpful. Most reviews give you a snapshot of performance and aren't very reliable in my opinion. You mentioned that this card was quiet "most of the time". Other than start up, when was it not? For those with screens capable of 1920 or more is this a good card? What are your specs? Do you always play at 1280? Have you tried over-clocking? I know a lot of guys are chomping at the bits for reliable user information before they jump in.

[Reno]

Just my 2$ gents, run a EVGA 8800 GTS for the last 4 months, no overheating, no hiccups. 8 x everything Row mod, TM of course:D Most problems that occured with 8800GT overheating is probably a lack of knowledge of user...:arrgh!:

I'm not so sure about that. The GTS and GT are two very different cards. The GT just came out a few weeks ago and only has a single slot cooler. It is, however, slated to replace your card which I hear will no longer be produced. http://www.techreport.com/discussions.x/13321

[Gunner]

Just my 2$ gents, run a EVGA 8800 GTS for the last 4 months, no overheating, no hiccups. 8 x everything Row mod, TM of course:D Most problems that occured with 8800GT overheating is probably a lack of knowledge of user...:arrgh!:

I'm not so sure about that. The GTS and GT are two very different cards. The GT just came out a few weeks ago and only has a single slot cooler. It is, however, slated to replace your card which I hear will no longer be produced. http://www.techreport.com/discussions.x/13321

Yer wrong my friend. The GT is exactly the same card as the GTS. the S stands for factory Super clocked,at least with EVGA cards that the way it is.Bought mine last July so I would have an earlier version, GTS, S superclocked. No overheating as this link suggests.Possibly there is overheating by less known manafactures with earler versions. Not the case with my EVGA card. There are a number of members here using 8800 GT(S) and i have not read one post of overheating , am I missing something :arrgh!:

[Reno]

The GT is exactly the same card as the GTS.

I believe your card has a large dual slot cooler and is based on the G80 chipset. The GT has a single slot cooler and is based on the G92 chipset. Different cards. I understand the confusion. You'd think they would have named the GT's something different.

[Bilge_Rat]

At 1280x960, 4xfsaa, 4x aniso, max graphics, I get fps of 90-100 on the bridge in the middle of the ocean with no ships around and 160-180 in the command room, using the ingame FPS counter. I will have to bump up the res to 16x12 to give the card a workout.

1280x960 resolution is not much of a test. How did the "workout" go? What resolution were you able to get before it became unplayable. Did you use AA and AF? When you played a graphically intense program at 1680x1250, as you were planning to do, did the fan begin to sound like a leaf blower? Did it start to overheat? Bilge Rat, you're in an enviable position. You're one of the pioneers of this new card and you can help a lot of people decide if this is for them or not. An honest and accurate account of your experience would really be helpful. Most reviews give you a snapshot of performance and aren't very reliable in my opinion. You mentioned that this card was quiet "most of the time". Other than start up, when was it not? For those with screens capable of 1920 or more is this a good card? What are your specs? Do you always play at 1280? Have you tried over-clocking? I know a lot of guys are chomping at the bits for reliable user information before they jump in.

I totally agree, it is rare I am the kid on the block with the new flashy toy .

I will put sh4 through its paces this weekend, say 1600x1200, 8xFSAA and report back, although so far the 8800 GT performs exactly as it should based on Net reviews.

[ironkross]

I have an 8800GT on the way. I read on the Newegg customer reviews of some running hotter than their old cards but to me running a little hotter is not the same as overheating. So I'm not worried about it. I can't wait to see how ROW looks.
BTW this GT was the superclocked edition from EVGA but still carries the GT designation and is a different card from the GTS.

[Bilge_Rat]

I have an 8800GT on the way. I read on the Newegg customer reviews of some running hotter than their old cards but to me running a little hotter is not the same as overheating. So I'm not worried about it. I can't wait to see how ROW looks.
BTW this GT was the superclocked edition from EVGA but still carries the GT designation and is a different card from the GTS.


I have the EVGA superclocked 8800 GT. You will not be disappointed.

[Rockin Robbins]

Good news: My power supply arrived on schedule and I am now back online with my own computer!

Bad news:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Dead%20EVGA%207600GT/100_6177.jpg
Take your hat off in the presence of a dead hero! This is the remains of a once proud EVGA 7600GT graphics card with the strangest failure I have ever seen. My computer would not boot and in fact behaved the same with the new power supply as the old: a quick flash of LED fans and deadness. OK, the power supply is protecting itself but from what?

I disconnected one item from the power at a time, looking for the culprit. Nothing worked. Time to start unplugging peripheral cards. Lets start with.......GRAPHIC CARDS! My very first symptom of a problem was scrambled graphics, Windows couldn't find the top graphics card. When I disconnected SLi and plugged into the bottom card I worked for five minutes before the big pfffffffffft!

I removed the top graphics card and the machine happily booted, asking what my problem was! I reassembled everything and set it up, rebooted and wondered about an 8 month old graphics card. You see the results of my survey above. It's not a pretty sight. Don't know what EVGA is going to say about it.

In the meantime, my machine works. I haven't tried SH4 yet, but I'll get good info on what SLi is worth and report back. That should be very interesting.

Sure is good to have life in the old computer again. Onward, into the fog!:arrgh!:

[SubSuck]

For good settings I recommend nothing below an ATI X1650XT or an nVidia 7600GT. If you want to insure good performance you should have something like an ATI X1950XT or 8600GTS.

SH4 isn't a graphic hog but it's good to have some headroom for demanding moments in the game.

[SteamWake]

Sure is good to have life in the old computer again. Onward, into the fog!:arrgh!:

Holy smokes ! Now thats a catastrophic failure !

The only thing that can blow electrolytics (those little can things) open like that is a severe overvoltage... as in a lightning strike. Or a bolted fault (severe short circuit). You dident drop a paper clip in there did you ?

Problem is why dident it trash your entire machine ?

Im guessing that your power supply took the major brunt of the surge.

You sir are one lucky sob. Your going to have a rough time getting a warranty claim on that one.

Good luck.

[Rockin Robbins]

Sure is good to have life in the old computer again. Onward, into the fog!:arrgh!:
Holy smokes ! Now thats a catastrophic failure !

The only thing that can blow electrolytics (those little can things) open like that is a severe overvoltage... as in a lightning strike. Or a bolted fault (severe short circuit). You dident drop a paper clip in there did you ?

Problem is why dident it trash your entire machine ?

Im guessing that your power supply took the major brunt of the surge.

You sir are one lucky sob. Your going to have a rough time getting a warranty claim on that one.

Good luck.
Thought someone would appreciate the picture! It sure opens up more questions than I can consider without a headache. Why in an SLi system is one card blown up and the other working perfectly right now? Like you said, why is the motherboard in great shape? If it was a power surge, why are not more items in my house affected? No paperclips were harmed in the filming of this disaster. I wrote EVGA a sob story too, to see what they will say.

Hey, any crash you can walk away from is a good one.:/\\x:

@SubSuck: You're dead on with your minimum graphics cards. My dual 7600GT SLi was pretty good. I'll let you know what I think of a single one, but adequate is probably the best description. Anything less would be an insult to the silent service.:up:

[Neptune#1]

While I am not the sharpest crayon in the box when it comes to computers and the knowledge many of you have far surpasses mine I can tell you from experience I am able to play SH4 with a 6200 Nvida 256mb card, 500g hard drive, 2.25gb of ram, 2.66ghz processor, while not the ideal setup it works reasonably well,sata helps also,so I still have much upgrading left to do, my son has a friend who has a new 36" LCD flat screen tv he told my son I could have it for $600.00, which I do not think is bad considering he paid double that for it,I would think the LCD would help improve the frame rates somewhat.

[SteamWake]

There are plenty of folks that are runnng the game quite successfuly with 'modest' systems.

It really boils down to resource management.

Of course if you want to see the full majestry that is available with this game your going to have to dig into that 'disposable income'.

[Neptune#1]

Tell me about it I figure to do the rest of the upgrades I need to do to get that kind of performance it will cost around $750.00 plus the LCD, of course considering a piece used to cost $25.00 and now they won't look at you for less than $300.00 it does not seem to bad lol.

[Nuc]

For good settings I recommend nothing below an ATI X1650XT or an nVidia 7600GT. If you want to insure good performance you should have something like an ATI X1950XT or 8600GTS.

I notice that the ATI X1650XT and the ATI 1950 PRO have the same list price. Between those two which would you recommend for SH4 performance? (i.e., whats the difference between an ATI X____XT and an ATI ______ PRO) ?

[Rockin Robbins]

Holy smokes ! Now thats a catastrophic failure !

The only thing that can blow electrolytics (those little can things) open like that is a severe overvoltage... as in a lightning strike. Or a bolted fault (severe short circuit). You dident drop a paper clip in there did you ?

Problem is why dident it trash your entire machine ?

Im guessing that your power supply took the major brunt of the surge.

You sir are one lucky sob. Your going to have a rough time getting a warranty claim on that one.

Good luck.
That was my feeling, too. But I figured I'd give it a try to see how EVGA reacts to such calamity. Sent them an e-mail yesterday. I sent them the same pic I posted here earlier, so it was crystal clear what the situation is. However, today, Saturday(!), I received an e-mail from EVGA customer service saying they would replace the card and setting up the RMA process.

Why would I even consider an ATI card or another nVidia card manufacturer? When EVGA says lifetime warranty, believe it! I'm their customer for life!:rock:They care about their customers.:sunny:My 8800GT card will come straight from EVGA and I won't waste time shopping around.

[SteamWake]

Holy smokes ! Now thats a catastrophic failure !

The only thing that can blow electrolytics (those little can things) open like that is a severe overvoltage... as in a lightning strike. Or a bolted fault (severe short circuit). You dident drop a paper clip in there did you ?

Problem is why dident it trash your entire machine ?

Im guessing that your power supply took the major brunt of the surge.

You sir are one lucky sob. Your going to have a rough time getting a warranty claim on that one.

Good luck.
That was my feeling, too. But I figured I'd give it a try to see how EVGA reacts to such calamity. Sent them an e-mail yesterday. I sent them the same pic I posted here earlier, so it was crystal clear what the situation is. However, today, Saturday(!), I received an e-mail from EVGA customer service saying they would replace the card and setting up the RMA process.

Why would I even consider an ATI card or another nVidia card manufacturer? When EVGA says lifetime warranty, believe it! I'm their customer for life!:rock:They care about their customers.:sunny:My 8800GT card will come straight from EVGA and I won't waste time shopping around.

Thats pretty amazing. Alot of manufactures would take one look at that and say... "oh my gosh our video cards dont run in a microwave".

It it is in there best interest to fullfill there 'warranty' glad your a happy camper.

Oh by the way.. have you got rid of the smell yet ?

[Rockin Robbins]

[

Oh by the way.. have you got rid of the smell yet ?
That's the crazy thing about the whole episode. There is no smell, no potting compound splattered around, no singed connectors or contacts. The whole thing defies explanation. Oh, and the computer is connected to a UPS, as is my router and cable modem. And the card which failed was on top, with the most cooling airflow around it. My case has 2 100mm fans and an 80mm fan, so there's plenty of airflow and everything has always run very cool.

[swdw]

For good settings I recommend nothing below an ATI X1650XT or an nVidia 7600GT. If you want to insure good performance you should have something like an ATI X1950XT or 8600GTS.
I notice that the ATI X1650XT and the ATI 1950 PRO have the same list price. Between those two which would you recommend for SH4 performance? (i.e., whats the difference between an ATI X____XT and an ATI ______ PRO) ?

the 1950pro

[SteamWake]

[

Oh by the way.. have you got rid of the smell yet ?
That's the crazy thing about the whole episode. There is no smell, no potting compound splattered around, no singed connectors or contacts. The whole thing defies explanation. Oh, and the computer is connected to a UPS, as is my router and cable modem. And the card which failed was on top, with the most cooling airflow around it. My case has 2 100mm fans and an 80mm fan, so there's plenty of airflow and everything has always run very cool.

Its entirely possible they had a bad run of caps .. ( elecrolytic capacitors) those llil gizmoes are prone to failure by there very nature. They are sort of like supercharged batterys. If they 'published' a bunch of cards with bad caps on them they surely know about it by now.

I guess I forgot to mention that in my 'catastrophic failure' post.

Breifely they fail by shorthing through the insulating medium and 'poof' a blown cap. Funny thing is they all went at once.

[moose1am]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_Graphics_Port

Spend a few minutes reading the web site at the above link before you buy a new video card. It will help to explain the different types of PCI, AGP and PCI-Express video card standards. Each motherboard can have different AGP. AGP 1.0 standard, AGP 2.0 standard ahe newest AGP 3.0 Standard. I think that these are either Microsoft of INTEL Standards. Not all video card and motherboard designers follow the standards though.

PCI Express is the newest and latest bus between the video card and the motherboard. And there are more than one type of PCI-Express ports out there.










Since your card is a 9800, it means you have an AGP motherboard so the great 8800GT won't help as it works on PCI-Ex.

The best card for you depends on your budget. Have a look at Tom's hardware recommendation (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/09/05/the_best_gaming_video_cards_for_the_money/page5.html).

I have a Leadtek 7800 GS (overclocked from 375/1200 to 500/1400) that scores a fine 6700 points in 3D Mark 2005 and 1470 in the Shader Model 3 test in 3D Mark 2006 (you can see here (http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=725&model2=716&chart=315) how it stands, e.g. it beats the 1950Pro :rock: which is considered the best AGP card).
Wow. More great advice. Thanks for the link. I find all this card stuff baffling. According to my computer's manual I have card connector slots for PCI and AGP, but maybe it's better to stick with AGP.:hmm: I can't say I know the difference though.

[mcarlsonus]

Think you had a catastrophic sub-standard power supply failure that caused an internal spike. It went to the point of first resistance. In this case, the leading 7600 card.
I've been off too. After deciding to hook up the old 3200+, 2GB, 4200RPM IDE HD, and seeing how SH4 looked on it (NOT good!), I went back to the "major leaguer" which now reports "BOOTMGR not found..." Haven't been able to get around that, no matter what I've tried (it now sees the C: drive as just another removable drive !)
A NEW lesson to Vista users: apparently when one uses a thumb/zip drive to utilize ReadyBoost, when one powers down the system and unplugs it, the "reactivation" results in the machine seeing the ReadyBoost drive as the boot drive. In short, I was using a 4GB, ReadyBoost-approved USB dongle to increase boot speed. It worked fine - until I unplugged the thing. Now the machine's riding the short bus...

[Nuc]

For good settings I recommend nothing below an ATI X1650XT or an nVidia 7600GT. If you want to insure good performance you should have something like an ATI X1950XT or 8600GTS.
I notice that the ATI X1650XT and the ATI 1950 PRO have the same list price. Between those two which would you recommend for SH4 performance? (i.e., whats the difference between an ATI X____XT and an ATI ______ PRO) ?

the 1950pro

Thank you
How about the ATI 1950 Pro vs. the ATI 2600 XT? Is any one using the 2600 with good results?

[Rockin Robbins]

Think you had a catastrophic sub-standard power supply failure that caused an internal spike. It went to the point of first resistance. In this case, the leading 7600 card.
I've been off too. After deciding to hook up the old 3200+, 2GB, 4200RPM IDE HD, and seeing how SH4 looked on it (NOT good!), I went back to the "major leaguer" which now reports "BOOTMGR not found..." Haven't been able to get around that, no matter what I've tried (it now sees the C: drive as just another removable drive !)
A NEW lesson to Vista users: apparently when one uses a thumb/zip drive to utilize ReadyBoost, when one powers down the system and unplugs it, the "reactivation" results in the machine seeing the ReadyBoost drive as the boot drive. In short, I was using a 4GB, ReadyBoost-approved USB dongle to increase boot speed. It worked fine - until I unplugged the thing. Now the machine's riding the short bus...
Testing by PC Pitstop shows that ReadyBoost gave minimal and sometime unmeasureable speed increases to the system. The dangers far outweighed any benefit in all cases. That's unfortunate. I still have the feeling that Vista will be worthwhile, after all, it's no ME. I think a year from now it will be time to consider it. I've built three systems for different family members since February and bought XP for all of them. Hell hath no fury like a Vista plagued family member.:rotfl:

Flash news: my frame rates in SH4 are not much different than they were with SLi! I now that those with that other card's dual system (it shall remain nameless because this is an official nVidia thread:p) showed no difference at all. I can report that my frame rates are within 5 frames per second with a single 7600GT card as they are with SLi. I'm running about 25 fps in external view, 80 or so on internal, map and control screen views. That's very playable and graphics settings are wide freakin' open 1152 x 864. So I wonder if I had a graphics card problem to begin with or if SH4 treats SLi and CrossFire (damn, he said it!) equally shabbily. Maerean_m, what's your take on that?

[U-Bones]

Thanks for the voluminous feedback all. Card talk always gets so technical, and sadly I'm one of those down around the fire=bad, tree=pretty level when it comes to understanding it. I think I'll try to find the GeForce 7600 GT recommended by some.:yep:
For a little more you can get a 8600 GT instead of the 7600 GT, and I strongly recommend you do so. It is the best card you can get for the price (I just got one for $99 after 25$ rebate).

My old 7600 GT developed a very noisy fan that was obviously going to croak soon. I am very pleased that I did not simply replace it with another 7600, the improvement is very noticable.

[Elder-Pirate]

Thanks for the voluminous feedback all. Card talk always gets so technical, and sadly I'm one of those down around the fire=bad, tree=pretty level when it comes to understanding it. I think I'll try to find the GeForce 7600 GT recommended by some.:yep:
For a little more you can get a 8600 GT instead of the 7600 GT, and I strongly recommend you do so. It is the best card you can get for the price (I just got one for $99 after 25$ rebate).

My old 7600 GT developed a very noisy fan that was obviously going to croak soon. I am very pleased that I did not simply replace it with another 7600, the improvement is very noticable.

He can't go there with his present Motherboard for its AGP and 8800GT is PC-I Express.

[mcarlsonus]

WELL where were you with that ReadyBoost advice when I really needed it? I'm back to the laptop now as I gave the "old guy" to my now-ex (who's been without since the older build FX60, dual Raptor SATA 10K's unit died). The newest beast, "ReadyBoost Bozo" is going to have to go to the shop. I simply can't remedy the situation with the tools I have UNLESS I upgrade to Vista Ultimate as it reinstalls the operating system. That may actually be viable, depending on the repair price. I should still be under warranty, but HP'll take a look at the PS and PCI-E mods and probably nix that idea!

[Rockin Robbins]

WELL where were you with that ReadyBoost advice when I really needed it? I'm back to the laptop now as I gave the "old guy" to my now-ex (who's been without since the older build FX60, dual Raptor SATA 10K's unit died). The newest beast, "ReadyBoost Bozo" is going to have to go to the shop. I simply can't remedy the situation with the tools I have UNLESS I upgrade to Vista Ultimate as it reinstalls the operating system. That may actually be viable, depending on the repair price. I should still be under warranty, but HP'll take a look at the PS and PCI-E mods and probably nix that idea!

Just another reason for me to stay away from Vista for awhile. In the meantime, EVGA e-mailed me a complete RMA package, including shipping label with even my return address on it and precise instructions on how to properly package a graphics card for shipment. These guys at EVGA are pros and they know how to take care of their customers.:rock:

There is a way with XP to turn caching off for a flash drive and I'm going to do that for my next one.... Yes, there's a sad story behind that one too. Now XP won't even acknowledge it as a flash drive so I can't seem to reformat it. I think mostly computers serve as tests of character.

[mcarlsonus]

True! True! Nonetheless, I still finding myself wishing I were bright enough to pass the entrance exam for cosmetology school!

[Reno]

He can't go there with his present Motherboard for its AGP and 8800GT is PC-I Express.

He was talking about the 8600GT not the 8800GT. Older card, but I believe that one is also PCI Express.

[mcarlsonus]

nVidia still has AGP cards in the GeForce 6600 through 7950 series. Looks like the closest they come to the 8800 PCI-e group is the 6800 Ultra - at $500!!! What's the point? MUCH cheaper to buy a new, decent mobo with PCI-e slots!

For anyone "following along at home," I'm embarrassed to say my earlier diatribe about Vista and "bootmgr" turned out to be:

a loose HD connection. I'm humbled and humiliated beyond all recognition!

[Elder-Pirate]

He can't go there with his present Motherboard for its AGP and 8800GT is PC-I Express.

He was talking about the 8600GT not the 8800GT. Older card, but I believe that one is also PCI Express.

8600.......8800.....jeez I've got to get my glasses fixed. :lol:

[Rockin Robbins]

nVidia still has AGP cards in the GeForce 6600 through 7950 series. Looks like the closest they come to the 8800 PCI-e group is the 6800 Ultra - at $500!!! What's the point? MUCH cheaper to buy a new, decent mobo with PCI-e slots!

For anyone "following along at home," I'm embarrassed to say my earlier diatribe about Vista and "bootmgr" turned out to be:

a loose HD connection. I'm humbled and humiliated beyond all recognition!
Yeah, computers do that to you. It's only a matter of time before they all align themselves against mankind. I think right now they're confining their attack to throwing misleading symptoms at us so we buy the wrong replacement parts.

[Checkmate King 2]

I want to upgrade my computer mainly for playing SH3 w/GWX, SH4, & IL-2 1946.

I'm currently running 1 gig of memory (2X 512mb) however, my video card is an integrated NVIDIA GeForce 6150 LE Graphics with up to 256MB shared video memory.

I just ordered 2X1 Gig memory cards to get me up to 2 Gig.

My big problem is what type of video card to get.

Below is my specs for my computer:

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&cc=us&jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN&docname=c00749158&product=3239117&dlc=en&printable=no&encodeUrl=true&#N407

This is the specs on my power supply:

AC input voltage (47-63Hz):

100-127V/8A
200-240V/4A

DC output wattage: 300W

Dimensions: 150mm x 140mm x 86mm


I have an Asus motherboard


I would like to order from either Amazon.com, Newegg.com, or Tigerdirect.com.

I know I cannot get a top of the line video card due to my 300w output.

I would prefer a Geforce NVIDIA card

Any suggestions on would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks

[mcarlsonus]

I have a virtually identical HP, a1730n, with the same mini-ATX Asus MoBo! You should have one PCI-E slot open as the system uses (or, "used," in my case) an onboard nVidia 6150LE chipset. This is SO not up to the task! Remedying that situation is easily accomplished by populating that PCI-E slot with something (really, ANYTHING!) better and making the change in the BIOS setup (choose PCI-E over the default PCI).

First: the generic 300W power supply has got to go. No matter what HP Support may tell you, this is a standard, ATX size PS (they told me it was a micro-ATX - it ain't!) Replace it before you do anything! I put in a 550-watt Antec NeoHE which is certainly ample for the amount of expansion potential in the case. It also runs quietly and is very (temperature-wise) cool. Again: do this first! Also, check the reviews for power supplies to ensure you're getting a good unit. The one HP provides, for example, while rated at 300 watts appears incapable of reliably producing even 200! And, it's just one of MANY power supplies out there that are overrated!

Video card: with an open PCI-E slot, the choices are only based on the depth of ones pockets. I picked up a nice $70 card that uses nVidia's 7600GT chip set. If you want to go to $300, you can pretty much choose whatever you want! The priciest boards are still around $500-$600. In anything you choose, however, remember there's a heat issue to be addressed! I recently added a three-speed Antec fan that's mounted on a gooseneck and attaches to the mobo. I pointed it at the video card, but I'm not sure it's really enough. I'm looking at replacing the case fan next with a higher CPM unit - which is very cheap protection!

NOTE to everyone: regarding this nVidea 8800GT that's currently "distribution-chalenged!" Does everyone realize that with current rebates, the full-goose bozo 8800GTS with 640MB is now only $40-$60 more than the price-inflated GT?? The only reason I could see for not springing for that option would be lack of a spare slot next door to accommodate a double-wide!

Welcome to the thread, my friend! Feel free to post questions like this any time! This is the absolute best bunch o' humanoids you'll ever meet! And, since it's international in flavor, you get the BEST advice on every conceivable thing in every corner o' this hyar werld!

And, everyone: a belated HAPPY THANKSGIVING! (er, on behalf of those of us that celebrate that particular Holiday...)

[Rockin Robbins]

First: the generic 300W power supply has got to go. No matter what HP Support may tell you, this is a standard, ATX size PS (they told me it was a micro-ATX - it ain't!) Replace it before you do anything! I put in a 550-watt Antec NeoHE which is certainly ample for the amount of expansion potential in the case. It also runs quietly and is very (temperature-wise) cool. Again: do this first! Also, check the reviews for power supplies to ensure you're getting a good unit. The one HP provides, for example, while rated at 300 watts appears incapable of reliably producing even 200! And, it's just one of MANY power supplies out there that are overrated!

Video card: with an open PCI-E slot, the choices are only based on the depth of ones pockets. I picked up a nice $70 card that uses nVidia's 7600GT chip set. If you want to go to $300, you can pretty much choose whatever you want!
I concur completely with that advice. If you really wanted to spend a little more money you might look at a 7900 or 8600 card, which are both a little better than the 7600GT. I'd expect the 8600 to be about twice as good and the 7900 pretty close to that. Some are reporting the 7900s faster than the 8600. Who knows? Buy whatever costs least and you'll be happy. DX10'ers will jump on me for that one! You'll love SH4 with a 7600GT and the other two cards are even better. Pick one and grin!

My second 7600GT card is taking the turkey express from California for the last three days. Hopefully I will have it on Monday. At that point I'll do some extensive testing to get frame rates in different conditions to report if SLi has the same problem as Crossfire. My spider senses tell me to be ready for a surprise. Stay tuned.

[Wilcke]

There are some good value cards out there just make sure you read the reviews. I just bought a BFG 7950 GT OC on ebay for about $140, nice card. Again its an Ebay deal so beware!

You may want to check on the ASUS web page, they have a nifty PSU calculator that will tell you how much wattage you need to run your PC. With one of the newer boards you may need more than 300W.

Best of luck!

Wilcke

[mcarlsonus]

...for having my back there, RockRob. It'll be interesting to see your new numbers, but, I'm confused. Wasn't this an SLI setup all along? I mean, surely one can't be running Crossfire on an nVidia chipset...can they??? Seems an affront to nature!

eBay! Truer words were never spoken: BE CAREFUL! And be frightened! Very, very frightened. If you want a hint of "what's to come," post a ridiculously low bid for any high-end CPU. People from all over the world will beat a path to your door offering the same thing at a ridiculously low price (and, then, one can amuse themselves by bargaining that down!) They will then proceed to tell you all about their escrow service (there's only ONE approved by eBay - which they probably own [for what it's worth]), which'll be a fraud with a RAWTHER nicely done website. Finally, "for your protection" they'll want to conduct the transaction outside eBay. I simply can't remember for the life of me what the reasoning behind "for your protection" was (damn!)

eBay's come a ways since being a scammer's playpen some years ago, but there's always profit to be made from underestimating the intelligence of the average customer. The crooks now enhance their posting by utilizing what appear to be legitimate positive feedback. Don't be fooled. Mostly it's exchanges of something akin to a $.50 chocolate cookie recipe among the gang members. However the problem persists. On Thanksgiving Day (yesterday) for example, I went looking for a new chair for the living room. Right off the bat I noticed exactly what I wanted with a terrific price and reasonable shipping (by the way, always check those S&H prices and/or verify them up front! LOTS of folks are making their money simply off those. Did I tell you about that idiot kid that used to live next door to me? You know, the one who thought he'd bought a computer for $1? Then he found S&H was $800. Imagine his disappointment. Imagine MY howls of laughter! But, I digress...)

ANYHOW, I followed the poster's request to email him prior to bidding (a decent indicator it's gonna be a scam!) He responded along the typical lines, "coming in from overseas," "...use several escrow services," etc. I reported him and, despite this being a one-day auction on a Holiday, eBay removed the posting almost immediately.

I DO go on, don't I? I am SO off-topic!

[Torplexed]

This thread will never die. :smug:

[Checkmate King 2]

At this point I don't want to mess around with getting a new power supply. I figure some new ram and a non-integrated graphics card should be just fine!!!!

I think a 8000 series Geforce is going to be too much (wattage needed). Therefore, I thinking of something in the 7000 series.

Would something like this be OK?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121021


What is core clock?

What is memory clock?

What is RAMDAC?

This card says its a GDDR2. Will that work in my computer, since mine is a DDR2?

[Elder-Pirate]

At this point I don't want to mess around with getting a new power supply. I figure some new ram and a non-integrated graphics card should be just fine!!!!

I think a 8000 series Geforce is going to be too much (wattage needed). Therefore, I thinking of something in the 7000 series.

Would something like this be OK?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121021


What is core clock?

What is memory clock?

What is RAMDAC?

This card says its a GDDR2. Will that work in my computer, since mine is a DDR2?
]


Could not get that link to work so not sure just what card you picked but here is the smallest 7000 series PCI-Express card from BFG ( Excellent Nvidia mfg. );

http://www.bfgtech.com/CMDocs/BFGTech/pro=27-7300GS_sellpiece.pdf

But it states it needs a min of 350 watt PCI-Complaint PS

You have a fairly small computer there and if you don't know your parts correctly you just may be better off buying a computer with more Horse power.


This 7300 GT card is AGP and 512 MB, not PCI-Express but still requires a 350 watt PS.

http://www.bfgtech.com/CMDocs/BFGTech/pro=116-7300GT_AGP_sellpiece.pdf

You'll probably have to upgrade your fans also as I doubt yours will cool a 7300 card.

I have an "Alienware" full tower and have 10 fans ( altogether ) with a 500 watt PS and with a Nvidia 7800 GS OC AGP, it still idles at 46c/115 F . with a room temp of 72/74 F. There is enough room in this case to put a real sub into ( well almost :) ).

[mcarlsonus]

You're going to find that any contemporary card will require at least a 350 watt PS. I wouldn't know where to tell you to look for another box in the HP line because I've checked 'em all out and even the (allegedly) high zoot Elite line uses the same pedestrian PS. It's simply NOT an option. Replace, or settle for having a "graphics-challenged" machine! Alternative: burned out, unusable machine. Heed the Captain's advice (not mine - RocRob - who's experienced a catastrophic meltdown very possibly "root caused" by an inferior PS! And, then, New Orleans flooded and the boats of the Fatherland gained access to the Mississippi, and, you know, it all went downhill from there...)

And, again, Pirate's hit the nail on the head re: cooling. you have lots of ventilation, but only two fans: CPU and one fairly small case fan. I've tried to address my particular problem by adding a 3-speed interior fan, and run it at max all the time. However, I still experience suspicious CTD's on a more or less regular basis when running SH4 (7600GT board - which doesn't produce anywhere NEAR the heat of the upper range video boards!)

By the by, GDDR2, GDDR3, etc. simply means the memory chips are intended to be used, or are optimized for, use with Graphics co-processors (thus, the "G" in front of the "DDR") Also, core clocks, etc. are measures of performance. Generally the higher the better, but it shouldn't be used as the one primary factor in selection. I've seen boards with lower clock rates soundly defeat ones with greater: quality of the drivers, performs optimally with that particular game, quality of graphics memory, etc. Too many variables. What we DO know, and what you'll see on this site, is that everyone has their favorites - and different abilities to afford the requisite tech. Buy accordingly! And, listen to your mates!

Capt? Didn't we agree this "thread (that) will never die" was really an nVidia thread? Some time ago, actually. June of '42???

[Checkmate King 2]

The link is for an ASUS EN7300GT SILENT/HTD/256M GeForce 7300GT 256MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 SLI Supported Video Card.

[Checkmate King 2]

Another graphics card I've been looking at is an Geforce 7300GS 256MB DDR2 Pci-e.

If I get a card that is rated for 350w, and I have only 300w, what type of problems might I have?

[Snuffy]

I have a pair of these (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3123171&CatId=1839)!

[Rockin Robbins]

AWould something like this be OK?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121021


What is core clock?

What is memory clock?

What is RAMDAC?

This card says its a GDDR2. Will that work in my computer, since mine is a DDR2?
Info: He's looking at an Asus GeForce 7300 card, heat sink--no fan. $56 and change.

Would something like this be OK? Yes, you'll be able to play. You won't be able to run all the graphics settings wide open like you can with a 7600GT. You should stick to 1024 x 768, which looks wonderful. And you won't spend $120 like I did. Sounds like a pretty good trade as long as you don't want to run graphics wide open.

What is core clock? That is the system clock running the GPU (graphics processing unit) on the video card. It's equivalent to the system clock on your computer's motherboard and entirely separate because it lives only on your graphics card.

What is memory clock? That is the clock regulating speeds and timing of memory access on your graphics card. Same restrictions as the core clock. It only affects the graphics card.

What is RAMDAC? Random access memory digital to analog converter--takes all that pretty digital stuff in the graphics card's memory and translates it into the analog signal a CRT monitor has to have to show it.

GDDR2? That is the dedicated memory on the graphics card that only it uses. It does not have any relationship to the memory on your motherboard, instead looking down its nose at the much more primitive stuff that lives there.

So you can make this card work with some compromises in settings. A 7600GT card would cost you the lion's share of $100, so this is a good buy.

[Rockin Robbins]

I have a pair of these (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3123171&CatId=1839)!
What kind of temps are you running with no dedicated graphics card fans? 120mm uber fans for the case should keep everything in line. Running Cool 'n Quiet would slow the cards down if necessary to avoid destruction so it looks real good to me.:up:

Silent Hunter 4 cranked will wring a 7600 series card to within an inch of its life! But they barely handle the job and give you wonderful results.

Snuffy, have you done framerate counts with SLi turned off and on? (word to the wise: when you turn it off make sure the monitor is plugged into the one Windows is using. Duh!!!! Must be some story behind that one RR is too embarrassed to talk about:88)) I'm going to do that when I get my #2 card back in a couple of days. It would be good to get data from two of us.

[Snuffy]

What kind of temps are you running with no dedicated graphics card fans? 120mm uber fans for the case should keep everything in line. Running Cool 'n Quiet would slow the cards down if necessary to avoid destruction so it looks real good to me.:up:

I got a couple pushin and pullin fans with airflow through the case. The CPU has a dedicated heat sink fan that exhausts through the wall of the case and the case also has a ventilation louver area over the graphics cards.

Silent Hunter 4 cranked will wring a 7600 series card to within an inch of its life! But they barely handle the job and give you wonderful results.

I'm running Leo's Hi-Rez sea foam and have most all sliders right, fog off they seem to be doing just fine.

Snuffy, have you done framerate counts with SLi turned off and on? (word to the wise: when you turn it off make sure the monitor is plugged into the one Windows is using. Duh!!!! Must be some story behind that one RR is too embarrassed to talk about:88)) I'm going to do that when I get my #2 card back in a couple of days. It would be good to get data from two of us.


Sorry RR, no frame counts here with either option. I get the standard initial load hesitation when going from 2D to 3D but once that's done, I really don't notice any problems. (I won't ask about your adventures in SLI configuration errors RR)

I'm one of those guys that believe that the eye can only see so much and that trying to emulate real life via frame rates is a waste of time and resources. I don't get any visible hesitation when in 3D except as I said, on initial load.

[mcarlsonus]

I'd be interested in seeing those temp numbers too, but, also I'm intrigued by your cooling possibilities. What manufacturer offers all these cooling options? Is this an Antec, CoolerMaster, Lian-Li, etc. case?

Finally: to Checkmate...you can certainly TRY to run a new card with your existing power supply - as long as its modest and, as previously mentioned, doesn't exceed the 350W requirement. And, I agree with the previous posters: 7600GT would be a better choice than what you're currently looking at. Finally, "SLI capability" is of no importance at all as you would need two PCI-E slots to do it, and you only have one.

(the "thread (that) will never die..." indeed!)

[Brenjen]

The 7300 card is what I put in my wife & kids machine, it is functional & easy on the wallet but do yourself a favor & go a little better on the GPU. My first one (I've had two) had fan trouble & was poorly assembled, I sent it back even though it worked & may have continued to do so for years the squeel from the fan was too much; for only a little more you can get a lot better card. 7800 GT's can be had on e-Bay (I know e-Bay is a gamble) for fair prices & they blow the 7300 away.

[Snuffy]

I'd be interested in seeing those temp numbers too, but, also I'm intrigued by your cooling possibilities. What manufacturer offers all these cooling options? Is this an Antec, CoolerMaster, Lian-Li, etc. case? ...

I got one of these (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2448862) for a case.

[mcarlsonus]

NICE! Are you using the supplied Ultra 700W PS? Ultra is one of the few PS's that are "mitchie-approved" (that, uh, would be me...)

This is a goodie! I wasn't aware it existed. Thanks for the link!

[Snuffy]

NICE! Are you using the supplied Ultra 700W PS? Ultra is one of the few PS's that are "mitchie-approved" (that, uh, would be me...)

This is a goodie! I wasn't aware it existed. Thanks for the link!

Yup. Buy all my hardware from Tiger ...

[Rockin Robbins]

NICE! Are you using the supplied Ultra 700W PS? Ultra is one of the few PS's that are "mitchie-approved" (that, uh, would be me...)

This is a goodie! I wasn't aware it existed. Thanks for the link!
Yup. Buy all my hardware from Tiger ... http://www.directron.com/cs602rds.html
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/100_4906.jpg
120mm blue LED fans front and back, 80mm blue LED side fan plus dedicated fans for the grafix cards and CPU. With my new 550 watt blue LED power supply the whole thing looks radioactive.

I buy all my cases from Directron that I don't buy from Newegg. Check 'em out and drool. Hundreds of them! :o Nice prices too and great people to work with!

[Rockin Robbins]

...for having my back there, RockRob. It'll be interesting to see your new numbers, but, I'm confused. Wasn't this an SLI setup all along?
Well... it started out to be SLi but there was this detonation...... :/\\x:Since one of the cards survived, I have a non-SLi system right now until my new card comes from California. My system not only LOOKS radioactive, but it has behaved that way.:hulk: I think I've created.....a monster!But it's my first gaming computer so I'm not complaining. I'm having a blast blowing stuff up.