Is it normal not to see ONE destroyer after two patrols?

[Quagmire]

Hey folks,

The last to patrols I wreaked havoc off the coasts of Hokkaido and Honshu. However it have to admit that it wasnt very exciting. It was one lone merchant after another like lambs to the slaughter. Not a destoryer in sight let alone a convoy.

So, is this historical? I am using the latest TM which I assume includes Taters latest campaign layers. These guys did great work by the way. The merchants actually zig-zag before they are spotted. But without without any Jap resistance at all it has become a rote practice of plot and sink. Dare I say my favorite sim is getting (gasp) BORING.

I am reading WAHOO by Dick O'Kane and to my surprise he even describes the Japanese waters as a bit of a merchant shooting gallery. At least he could cut the boredom with a Cribbage game with Mush Morton! (Now that would be a mod!) :rotfl: [REL] Cribbage with Mush 1.0!

Anyway, I digress. O'Kane does recall much more Jap resistance than I am seeing. Most notably he says that the merchants would hug the coast in shallow waters since such depths are very unsafe for subs. However all the merchants I encounter are out in the deep blue.

Anyone else experiencing Merchant Melancholy?
.

[Ducimus]

Early war?

[Quagmire]

Oh sorry, Ducimus. I should have said that. It's July '43.

Probably makes a difference, eh?
.

[tater]

Most of the ASW patrols are patrol craft, not DDs. Subchasers, and minesweepers. old DDs were also used (minekaze and mutsuki in game, some as stand ins for ODDs).

tater

[AVGWarhawk]

The coastal hugging happened late war after most ASW were dispatched to the bottom.

[Powerthighs]

I've been wondering about that myself lately. While I love the overall reduced traffic, I've just finished reading Clear the Bridge and Silent Victory, and while it was not rare to run across a few ships alone, an unscientific sampling of my memory seems to indicate that the majority of encounters included at least one escort.

[Gunner]

Never played Pearl Harbour Command, I can say played TM since Ducimus first version.Currently play'n 1.6.3 with Row mod NSM 3.3 with an S boat out of Manila 1941.With Duci mod and Tater's campaign files playing Freemantle command since the beginning of these mods combined, no shortage of air patrols, have seen a wide variety of small convoys, merchants with escorts and without, armed merchants and unarmed,No shortage of DD early war.Sunk 7 of them on my 4 th Patrol early 42, 4 DD in a small task force sailing in staright line, that happend to come acroos my bow. Ducimus, heard tale yer think'n of increasing air patrols, I can atest,Freemantle Command THERE IS NO SHORTAGE .:D Keep up the Great work Ducimus and Tater:up:

[Ducimus]

Speaking of air patrols. In future revisions of Tmaru, if all goes well, you might not want to patrol at persicope depth. If you do, make sure your doing a "periscope patrol". Otherwise, cruise at 100 feet to be safe. :arrgh!:

[tater]

Well, the japanese had several hundred merchantmen. They had ~100 DDs, and before 1944, very few dedicated escort ships (early kaibokans, subchasers, etc).

Given that almost no fleet DDs escorted convoys (many actually carried no depth charges at all early in the war), that doesn't leave much room for escorting, particularly since they had no naval officers at all assigned to convoy duty until 1943.

One possible reason is that over 50% of patrols out of Pearl in 1942 were to Truk. That's the "front" and near Truk everything is escorts---almost, unescorted is a rare exception in that area).

tater

[Quagmire]

Well, here is what is going on off Hokkaido in July '43.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6507/shiv2414gq0.jpg

Four merchants with a fifth just picked up on radar. I plugged them over the course of two days. You would think they would at least send out a search plane but I have had no opposition. Stupid mission will not complete either.

One possible reason is that over 50% of patrols out of Pearl in 1942 were to Truk. That's the "front" and near Truk everything is escorts---almost, unescorted is a rare exception in that area).

I guess I need to head to Truk for some excitement, eh?

I'm not knocking you guys. Heck, I think your work is required to enjoy SHIV. Your work rocks! I am just asking if it is normal to park in one spot off the home islands and shoot fish in a barrel.

I feel like I am cheating...
.

[Ducimus]

>>You would think they would at least send out a search plane but I have had no opposition.

I've been rexamining aircraft.


>>Stupid mission will not complete either.
Judging by the icon, i think you have to patrol there for a couple days before it counts as completed.

[hyperion2206]

Speaking of air patrols. In future revisions of Tmaru, if all goes well, you might not want to patrol at persicope depth. If you do, make sure your doing a "periscope patrol". Otherwise, cruise at 100 feet to be safe. :arrgh!:

That sounds really awesome! Although I know that planes won't attack me at periscope depth right now, I still dive to 150 feet during day time to avoid detection. You really rock Ducimus!:rock:

[tater]

It could be as simple as the fact that the shipping is more offshore.

Here's another issue (this relates to the patrol objective placement shown in your image wich needs to move, IMO).

The game will not spawn in (enemy?) units withn 20nm of your sub.

Many of the ASW patrols, convoys, and other groups spawn near harbor mouths. I've backed many farther in, but not all of them. One reason to leave them at sea for spawning is size. If you happen to show up near some narrows, and the convoy has to render before it passes through, they might run aground.

Many of the (silly) harbor missions also take you to places where ships spawn, so if you are in close to land, the ships you want to see simply won't spawn because they are within that 20nm radius.

I'll check, there is a chance that the ASW patrols for that area are close enough to you (spawn point) that your existence keeps preventing them from coming into game.

tater

[tater]

Pragmatically, for right now, move out of that bay a little, and I bet there is considerably more traffic. Where that image shows your patrol, you'll only ever see ships coming/going to ports in there, and there is little traffic doing that.

[jdkbph]

Stupid mission will not complete either.


I'm not sure exactly what the number is - I use 50nm and have no problem completing these mission types - but there is a max radius around that yellow star icon that defines your assigned patrol area. If you stray beyond that boundary at any time during the 48 hours patrol - eg, to chase a contact - you have to start all over again.

It's hard to tell from the jpg, but those sunk ship icons appear to be out of the patrol area... and some of those waypoints you've got plotted are close.

JD

[tater]

50-55nm is usual. The big problem is that the patrols in the stock game are all set to "continuous." This means that if you need to patrol the area for 48 hours, and you stray 1cm out of the box in that period, the clock resets. I have since changed most all of them to non-continuous, so you the time spent in the box is additive.

The TM campaign so far hasn't altered all the patrols. My current version has more of this done, if it works with the TM 1.7 timeframe, I will try and push it out the door to be included.

tater

[Rockin Robbins]

TM 1.64, ROW, NSM 3.3. I'm assigned to patrol the Carolines area and I'm stuck in the middle of a hornet's nest around Truk. I'm using a 75 nm radius around my patrol areas and no problem with completed missions, by the way.After I upload some screenies I'll update. In short, I've got minelayers all over the place, one unescorted convoy of two ships (sank em both), 10,000 aircraft, some of which have conducted attacks while I am submerged. It's slightly foggy, so I can remain at radar depth even when planes are quite close, but I was attacked three times on approach to a target at periscope depth. It's been exciting! Pictures soon!

[tater]

Wonder if there is a CV group at anchor in the lagoon. :) Yet another reason to dump CV air groups down lower in plane count. I suppose you can assume they flew off the planes and landed them at the airbase at Truk. Not sure if the IJN did that, the USN always did (so the planes would be available to fly while the CV was incapable of flight ops (since they need to steam ahead to conduct air ops)).

tater

[Rockin Robbins]

Wonder if there is a CV group at anchor in the lagoon. :) tater
That's what it looks like and I think I've noted the position of the CV, even though I'm not close enough to see it on radar. My patrol area is south of Truk and going after the carrier is going to take me out of the 75 nm radius and make me restart the clock, but as this is my 12th cruise, I'm not going to risk retirement by returning to base empty-handed. And with all the minelayers running around I'll have something to exercise my cuties on!

Shots so far:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/Carolines13.jpg
Smoke on the horizon, just left of the crosshair. Looks better in the game, even with this enhanced picture. Something about the screenshot process isn't quite right. Time to set up a nice orderly approach and should be a piece of cake!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/Carolines4.jpg
Tagged the first one with a single shot. Missed two because I forgot to turn the PK off when they did the St Vitus' Dance and I had to chase at ahead emergency at periscope depth for over 15 minutes. Tagged him with a single shot here and this is after the coup de grace in the stern after he stopped. Love the oil slick!!!!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/Carolines8.jpg
Lotsa planes here from the probable CV. Here's a flight passing by as seen through the observation scope with the sub at radar depth. I like to see what's happening and stay near the surface. I feel like I'm in better control of the situation.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesCruise1.jpg
Here you go! He's straight overhead and didn't drop. I'm at periscope depth here using the observation scope which lets you look straight up. He didn't see a thing and I'm happy with the realism there. Water was rough enough I wasn't very visible, unlike when I was making the approach to my second victim, when I was attacked three times by planes while at periscope depth.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/Carolines1.jpg
If you don't think the merchies zig and zag with tater's stuff in TM 1.64, just look at this mess! Two ships for 12 torpedoes, five hits. Fired a cutie out the stern by mistake. Note to self: that was a BAD IDEA. Spent five real tense minutes dodging that one. I feel like I'm finally seeing the frustration of a real sub skipper.

Thought I had screenies of the Truk area, which is just west of these two ship sinkings by maybe 5 miles. Needless to say, the planes know I'm here, although they haven't seen me since maybe they saw me when they bombed me at periscope depth. It's possible they were just blindly dropping too. But two ships down counts as a sub sighting I guess.:arrgh!:

I'm skirting the lagoon to the east and then the south to work my way around to where I think the CV is holed up. More to come as I either get killed or bag myself a nice flattop.

[Quagmire]

It could be as simple as the fact that the shipping is more offshore.

Here's another issue (this relates to the patrol objective placement shown in your image wich needs to move, IMO).

The game will not spawn in (enemy?) units withn 20nm of your sub.

Many of the ASW patrols, convoys, and other groups spawn near harbor mouths. I've backed many farther in, but not all of them. One reason to leave them at sea for spawning is size. If you happen to show up near some narrows, and the convoy has to render before it passes through, they might run aground.

Many of the (silly) harbor missions also take you to places where ships spawn, so if you are in close to land, the ships you want to see simply won't spawn because they are within that 20nm radius.

I'll check, there is a chance that the ASW patrols for that area are close enough to you (spawn point) that your existence keeps preventing them from coming into game.

tater

Makes perfect sense, Tater. I will move on after the mission completes. I would have never thought of the whole "spawning" issue. Thanks for all the tips. It is interactions like this that will make the mods even better!
.

[Ducimus]

Speaking of air patrols. In future revisions of Tmaru, if all goes well, you might not want to patrol at persicope depth. If you do, make sure your doing a "periscope patrol". Otherwise, cruise at 100 feet to be safe. :arrgh!:

That sounds really awesome! Although I know that planes won't attack me at periscope depth right now, I still dive to 150 feet during day time to avoid detection. You really rock Ducimus!:rock:


Well, i got an improved version of these sensors up in the mod forum if you want to D/L and play with it. Planes will most definatly spot you at periscope depth now at around 4600 to 4800 meters or less.

So ya, Destoryers, or lack off, will be the least of your "where's mah fun?" concerns next publish of TM assuming all this still works post patch (don't see why it shouldn't). I feel giddy about this, i have come up with a new, improved, and historical way in which to get blown out of the water!

[tater]

They'll also call nearby warships :D

This is interesting, ducimus...

So we take the invisible bombs that lurker has in RSRD. Add some to all the maritime patrol planes. Wonder if there is any limit how many you could put on a plane?

Set them to do no damage at all (this is in addition to their bombs/DCs). If an H6K had MANY invisible, non damaging "bombs" it would stick around making pass after pass. Perhaps the longer it stays around, the more chance for warships to arrive...

[Ducimus]

They'll also call nearby warships :D



yea. *evil grin* I might even up the lost contact time to 20 mins. As if the 15 minute under the new way it works isn't bad enough. hehehehhe.

intresting idea of the invisible bombs. :hmm:

[tater]

In SH4, planes make attacks, then leave when out of ammo. IJN doctrine was to try and track subs for DAYS after contact:

Interrogation of: Lieutenant Commander OKAMOTO, T.; Staff Officer of First Escort Fleet Air Squadron and (general Headquarters, Grand Escort Fleet.

Interrogated by: Commander T.H. Moorer, U.S.N.

SUMMARY

Lieutenant Commander OKAMOTO discusses briefly anti-submarine training, special equipment and search and attack doctrine as applied to Japanese aircraft. For additional information refer to Interrogation number USSBS 200, Nav No 48.:


Q. How long did you follow a contact before you abandoned it?
A. Three days and nights.

Q. Did you use surface vessels to assist after making contact?
A. Yes. Surface vessels were always used to develop a contact.

Q. Were the surface vessels directed to the estimated position of the submarine by MAD planes?
A. Yes.

[Quagmire]

Oh yeah do I like where you guys are headed. Great work folks. By the way, I completed the Hokkaido mission and radioed it in. I then was sent to patrol off Honshu only 100nm or so from my first mission.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2124/shiv1412jf2.jpg

As you can see it was a merchant shooting gallery again. I bagged three in one day with no opposition once again. So I went ahead and radioed in my success this time and guess what? No good deeds go unpunished. Check out my next mission. PHOTO RECON of Yokohama!!!
.

[Ducimus]

Yokohama eh?

Well, you said you wanted to see a destroyer or Tin can of some sort, right? :lol:

[hyperion2206]

Speaking of air patrols. In future revisions of Tmaru, if all goes well, you might not want to patrol at persicope depth. If you do, make sure your doing a "periscope patrol". Otherwise, cruise at 100 feet to be safe. :arrgh!:
That sounds really awesome! Although I know that planes won't attack me at periscope depth right now, I still dive to 150 feet during day time to avoid detection. You really rock Ducimus!:rock:

Well, i got an improved version of these sensors up in the mod forum if you want to D/L and play with it. Planes will most definatly spot you at periscope depth now at around 4600 to 4800 meters or less.

So ya, Destoryers, or lack off, will be the least of your "where's mah fun?" concerns next publish of TM assuming all this still works post patch (don't see why it shouldn't). I feel giddy about this, i have come up with a new, improved, and historical way in which to get blown out of the water!

I'll d/l it at soon as patch 1.4 is out of the door and TM has been made compatible.:arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

When we last left our heroes, they had noticed dozens of aircraft sorties coming from a point in Truk Lagoon during the day. Marking the apparent origin on the chart, the captain conducted an attack team meeting to discuss doing a bit of housecleaning during the night. Submergence would not be possible in most instances. Although we suspect a CV in there, who knows what else we might encounter. Let's go!

We skirted around the east and across to the south of the lagoon for shortest distance to the suspected CV. It was the perfect opportunity to be jumped by two Asashio DE's (thought the complaint was these guys aren't out here) go deep! Played for awhile and came up to do battle.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesAsashioBattle1.jpg
Ain't they cute! Looks like an Asashio family portrait. Let's show our appreciation by floating a little cutie out there and see what happens. Cutie is only good for 10 knots and if they were actively hunting we might not be able to use it. Fired one cutie out the stern, cut the engines and dived. We slowly descended, our momentum silently carrying us clear of the cutie's ears. BOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!! Up for a look!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesGoodAsashio1.jpg
Heh, heh, heh! Now he's a good Asashio. Wish we had time to dance, but while the other guy contemplates his buddy's fate, let's beat a hasty retreat. We have to finish our mission by sunrise and don't have time to dance.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesGaveHimtheSlipmap.jpg
Gave him the slip! Now mark 14 is the suspected CV location, plotted during the dozens of day attacks. They pounded us pretty good while we were at periscope depth, although we took no detectable damage. Time to make 'em pay. We'll cross the bar at the narrowest point, make our approach through the deeper water and see what we have.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesTrukLagoonsubchaser1map1.jpg
That's no CV, just a subchaser. But we have to take care of him to penetrate any further. Took a shot from 3400 yards. It hit! Blew the subchaser 100' into the air, split in two and landed in 2 pieces. I was so surprised I didn't take any pictures. Next! Up by the island, it's an Agano. Made a stealthy approach to 3400 yards again (hey, it worked once!), shot 3. Hit 1 blew up the magazine!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesAganoSecondaryExplosionsbe.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesAganoIsToast.jpg
I have more pictures but no more time. Stay tuned for Truk Lagoon: foolish mission to hell! Part 3. Heck, I wish there were some warships out here. Just keep finding these merchants. Why do they have these big guns on them though? I can't submerge. I'd hate to see if I only wounded one of them...

To be continued!

[Quagmire]

Yokohama eh?

Well, you said you wanted to see a destroyer or Tin can of some sort, right? :lol:

Yeah, be careful what you wish for eh? Nimitz has a sick sense of humor! Well its off to Yokohama! Any fellow skippers have any tips on surviving Tokyo Bay?

Robbins looks like he is having a grand ol' time. I hope I get sent to Truk next! :arrgh!:
.

[missleman01]

Just to throw it in there....

Running the latest Trigger Maru Ive recently been deployed to Hokaiddo in the USS Seahorse in June/July of '43.

I did not run into in escorts far north around Hokaiddo, but I maneuvered a slight bit south to the very northern part of Honshu, near Miyako and had a destroyer and two minsweepers dispatched to find me at dawn after having sunk a mid sized maru a couple hours before.

I was within 10 nm of the sinking at dawn, and about 20 or so nm offshore. They were very obviously sent in as a group and started circling like sharks. I dove to perisocpe depth when I spotted the smoke and watched them from the south in the scope. A seaplane arrived and they depth charged a hole in the water for a while while I crept south to escape.

Seems like the IJN was pretty hot about it all.....But yeah, no shortage of coastal patrols. The only thing I nottice is that convoy action around Hokaiddo is light. I have only sniped boats in harbor, and loners coming into the northern ports after a week on station.

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, so we were about the middle of Truk lagoon, had just torpedoed an Agano CL, igniting the ammuntion magazines and blowing it to kingdom come. After the fact, I reflected on the consequences of not sinking the Agano and having its rather large and rather numerous guns discharging in my direction... Well he sank and that's that!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesTrukLagoon3downmap.jpg
It's only 2:28 AM, there must be other ships around here. I didn't find my CV where I expected it, so it must be where I do not expect it. Time to explore to the east, north of the small island and between the two larger islands east of it. What's that south of Truk island itself? Our CV?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesSubchaserTorpedoontheway.jpg
An auxiliary sub chaser... Oh well. We'll sneak in to 3000 yards and give it a torpedo so we can proceed. Fire 1!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesSubchaser4.jpg
He must have been ready to celebrate the Fourth of July! No tonnage there but a very satisfying explosion. We poked our way east fo the island. To the north were two unidentifieds, moored closely together enough to see each other. I have one torpedo left, can't go there. Unidentified target to the south, nestled against that island!
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesKuma1stLook.jpg
Holy Toledo! One torpedo left and that's a..... weapons officer, what is that? It's a Kuma Light Cruiser. Where was that ammunition magazine on the Agano? Right under the front turret. Which way is forward? Better wait on that one.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesKumaMap.jpg
Approach plotted. We have lots of time to decide exactly where to send our fish. Take it slow, but it's getting late: 4:06 AM and sunlight comes soon in these eastern parts. We'll take our shot at 3400 yards out. The torpedo takes a full five minutes to reach the target...
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesKumaTBT1.jpg
A hit! But where are the flames? Something is not right and we're out of fish. Look for secondary explosions. Turn this baby around and let's scram!

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesKuma4.jpg
All right! Secondary explosion, just like the doctor ordered! Cool! He's a goner now. Just wait....
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesKuma1-1.jpg Secondary explosions my horse's patootie! He's firing a broadside at us! How much water is under us!!!!! About 40 under the keel. Take her to radar depth! Carefully! A minute later, no more firing from Mr Kuma. Whew! Take her up to 35'. Start main engines. All ahead emergency. Course 90º.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesKuma7.jpg
Here's how we left her. Didn't get credit for a sinking, but she won't see any more service in THIS war, that's for sure.

We carried the bar into open water just before 5:00 AM. Two weeks later we were safe at Pearl. Let's tally up the Carolines cruise, #12 for the Redfin.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Carolines%20Cruise/CarolinesCruisescorsheet.jpg
Not bad for Trigger Maru 1.64, ROW latest version and NSM 3.3. Didn't use the Dick O'Kane method at any time this cruise. Had too many misses, didn't get credit for the Kuma, didn't find our aircraft carrier, but we're gonna celebrate just the same. The Royal Hawaiian is gonna remember us forever when we get partying tonight!

Not enough action in Trigger Maru 1.64? Sorry, can't vote for that one any more. I found plenty of action, almost too much for comfort!:gulp:

[THE_MASK]

Do youself a huge favour and download RSRDC .

[Rockin Robbins]

Do youself a huge favour and download RSRDC .

Then I'd have to ditch Trigger Maru, and that's not a negotiable point. Almost all of what you see in the story would have been negatively altered without TM. If a mod isn't good enough to coexist with Trigger Maru it won't be coexisting with me. The end.:rock:

[tater]

I think the two can be made to get along... it needs to wait til 1.4, however.

:)

tater

[Ducimus]

At this point, i think everyones waiting for patch 1.4.


>>Do youself a huge favour and download RSRDC .

That sounds like my first, critical critque. My gut says, "ouch!", but i realize that mods are going to be continually evolving, and after patch 1.4, ill be looking to wrap mine up, and lurker_hlb3 is just getting warmed up. So if no one else plays Tmaru, thats ok, cause i know i will be. In the end, the motivation for Tmaru, is to fine tune the game to my liking, although i know there will always be something ill be changing in it, even if i dont publish more versions.

Truthfully im hoping for another large modpack to blow me out of the water so i can silently drift away into the background and not feel like i have this responslbilty to upgrade and support the mod, which at times feels like a burden. But this isn't to say i wont ever consider changing campaign mods used by TMaru. But I do like Tater's work, its researched, well implented, and leaves a small footprint when one considers all the files involved when making a large modpack.

edit:
I think the two can be made to get along... it needs to wait til 1.4, however.

:)

tater

I am not opposed to this. Honestly the two combined might kick some serious ass. I'm just not pushing the idea because i don't know what lurker_hlb3 envisons for his game, and i don't want to impose my "sandcastle" on to his "sandcastle", for want of a better term. He might just like his sandcastle as it is, and want arc windows where i might have square windows.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm happy no matter how it works out. Patch, no patch, add-on or no add-on, RSRD or no RSRD the game as I have it right now rocks mightily. A year from now we'll look back at how primitive it is. To the future, and beyond!!!!!