SH5: Back in Atlantic or Again in Pacific?

[spyridon]

SH5 : Back in Atlantic or Again in Pacific?

Fixed --NS

[Zachstar]

Whats with the super limited choice poll?

Why does SH5 have to yet again deal with WW2?

I noted in another topic my peference for an Alt. Universe type of Silent Hunter with a US/USSR conflict at sea 52-58.

[KrvKpt. Falke]

Atlantic :rock:

[myself77]

Atlantic! U Boats!:ping:

[daft]

Pacific. Throw in some British, Dutch and maybe even Japanese campaigns. Extend the career to include a claims system for sunken and damaged enemy ships and make the submarine come alive with more compartments and a more living crew. :)
Oh, and a fully functioning ice cream machine must be medelled in every fleet boat. The devs could even make a cool adventure mini-game about aquiring one for your boat. ;)

[spyridon]

Whats with the super limited choice poll?

Why does SH5 have to yet again deal with WW2?

I noted in another topic my peference for an Alt. Universe type of Silent Hunter with a US/USSR conflict at sea 52-58.

Atlantic or Pacific doesn't means WW2 only.
Until now, I only know these two oceans and the Indian (wich I don't think they will ever choose as a submarine's sim game war theatre) :know:

US/USSR conflict could also happen in Atlantic, Sir!:D

Me, I would like SH5 : Back in Atlantic (in WW2):arrgh!:


Good Hunting!:ping:

[Iron Budokan]

Those who make the business decisions will come down on the side of the Atlantic. That's where the money is. And it's all about the dollars.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Both theatres in one sim:yep: WWII era.

RDP

[VonBlade]

I don't care as long as everything works :)

[Frenssen]

I voted the Atlantic as I prefer to play without radars and fight against many nationalities and units. The Pacific is also interesting and I enjoy SH4, but from a gameplay point of view I prefer the Kriegsmarine.

[d@rk51d3]

Atlantic, with changeable history.:D

[joea]

Both theatres in one sim:yep: WWII era.

RDP

:yep:

[Hartmann]

Both in one

but could be great a nuke sim. modern submarines are a true silent hunters of the depths

[Alex]

Both theatres in one sim:yep: WWII era.

RDP

:yep:

:yep: :up:

This is my vote too.

[Capt. Shark Bait]

personally, i don't think it matters all that much, since SH4 is my 1st subsim. i just think it's time for WW2 to die quietly cuz there's really not much new that can be done with it. hell, even infinity ward and gone current with CoD4. why not a naval experience along those lines as well?:ping:

[W_clear]

SH5 can operate destroyers .

[KrvKpt. Falke]

SH5 can operate destroyers .

You are thinking about Destroyer Command 3? ;)

[Uber Gruber]

One word......Wolfpacks!

[vindex]

Both theatres in one sim. You get to choose which country (Germany, US, Britain, etc) to play.

Once the engine is built and works, it's really a question of:

1) Scripting traffic for all regions (possible now, with modding).

2) Building a campaign GUI for each country, and assigning country-specific mission assignmets.

3) Switching renown points (or penalties) depending on which "side" you are playing. Since in SH3 and SH4 you only played from one side, this was not an issue.

4) Building sub graphics and appropriate to each country.

5) The trickiest: enabling different targeting mechanisms based on which country/sub you are playing, since they didn't use the same techniques. Trickiest because it cuts closer to the core of the game engine.

I'd be happy if they just used the same engine as SH4, as long as they fix what's wrong with it now.

I would like to continue with WWII because Cold War subs are really a different animal entirely. When you don't need to surface, ever, you're playing by fundamentally different rules of engagement.

If there could be improvements, I'd like to see it in crew management. They fixed the micro-management problem of SH3, but I'd really like to see the crew come alive and play a genuine role in the game (morale = normal, anyone?).

[pocatellodave]

My money sez there won't be another Silent Hunter.With all the hoo-raah,I think that the Silent Hunter series might be over.If there is another one I'd guess Atlantic,with destoyers involved.
Pocatellodave

[Argus00]

Seeing how the devs for a probable SH5 will most likely be UBI Bucharest again, I think they might opt for a Black Sea theater :up:

We've had the Atlantic, we've had the Pacific, why not the Blac Sea?

No, seriously - Romania actually had 9 submarines and 1 sub tender during WWII, and they did see some action:rock:

They were:

3 submarines = NMS Delfinul (HMS* Dolphin), NMS Rechinul (HMS* Shark), NMS Marsuinul (HMS* Porpoise)

6 midget subs = generically named CB1 - CB6, used only for observation/spotting at 30 miles off the coast

sub tender = NMS Constanta (HMS Constanta**)

* = HMS because Romania was a monarchy at the time
** = named after Romania's main port, Constanta.

details:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=249
http://www.geocities.com/dangrecu/VaseArm.html#submarine

On a more modern note, we also have a SSK Kilo Class (Type 877EKM) {Project 877E, NATO code "Kilo"(export type)} Russian Attack Submarine, built at Leningrad Admiralty Shipyard, which we imported 1986. It's out of commission, though. There were plans a few years ago to recondition it and turn it into a museum, but there were no funds to finish the project.

[stabiz]

Atlantic for the win!

[kakemann]

Atlantic rocked... :rock:

[perisher]

The game should cover the whole world, the maps already do. All pre-nuclear subs should be available, all nationalities playable. WW1 & WW2 campaigns plus a number of "What IF?" campaigns. You might have to load nationalities separately and it might be multi-disk, or even basic game with major powers and conflicts, plus add-ons for others.

[seicolpi]

With Sh1 and Sh4 you play with Americans, with Sh2 and Sh3 you played with the Germans, so why not Sh5 with Italians?
As italian I hope to play with Regia Marina's subs like the Calvi class or the R.Smg Scirè.

[bruschi sauro]

Both theatres in one sim:yep: WWII era.

RDPyes but this is a dream.For me Ubi never made SH5.:damn:

[bruschi sauro]

With Sh1 and Sh4 you play with Americans, with Sh2 and Sh3 you played with the Germans, so why not Sh5 with Italians?
As italian I hope to play with Regia Marina's subs like the Calvi class or the R.Smg Scirè.Caro Amico sarebbe bellissimo avere un asimulazione con i sommergibili atlantici con base a Bordeaux...e' un sogno ad occhi aperti.
Purtroppo secondo me Ubi non fara' mai piu' una simulazione di guerra sottomarina ...dopo quello che e' successo con sh4:cry: , un tira e molla per poter avere un gioco decente.:down: .Non so se conosci DW dei Sonalyst , non e' male.
E' una simulazione ambienteta ai tempi di oggi. provalo.
ciao:yep:

[seicolpi]

With Sh1 and Sh4 you play with Americans, with Sh2 and Sh3 you played with the Germans, so why not Sh5 with Italians?
As italian I hope to play with Regia Marina's subs like the Calvi class or the R.Smg Scirè.Caro Amico sarebbe bellissimo avere un asimulazione con i sommergibili atlantici con base a Bordeaux...e' un sogno ad occhi aperti.
Purtroppo secondo me Ubi non fara' mai piu' una simulazione di guerra sottomarina ...dopo quello che e' successo con sh4:cry: , un tira e molla per poter avere un gioco decente.:down: .Non so se conosci DW dei Sonalyst , non e' male.
E' una simulazione ambienteta ai tempi di oggi. provalo.
ciao:yep:

Ciao
si, conosco DW solo che non mi attira la grafica e poi non ci sono unità italiane. Io speravo in un sh5 con unità tipo il Calvi, il Tazzoli, il Perla, lo Scirè ecc... che percorra i fatti storici. Purtroppo, come dici tu, questa è solo un'utopia, però sai, sperare non fa male, se resti con i piedi per terra :)

[bruschi sauro]

I vote for Cold War , a lot of soviet subs Oscar, Kilo, Golf, November, Ming, Akula, Typhon, Victor, and on the other side Los Angeles Seewolf... and a lot of MK 48
improved....:rock: :rock:

[DirtyHarry3033]

Why not the IJN???? Interesting stuff there, the Sen Toku I-400 class submersible aircraft carriers, the Kaiten suicide torpedos... would definately be different from anything I've ever seen in a sub sim anyway...

DH

[JALU3]

The game should cover the whole world, the maps already do. All pre-nuclear subs should be available, all nationalities playable. WW1 & WW2 campaigns plus a number of "What IF?" campaigns. You might have to load nationalities separately and it might be multi-disk, or even basic game with major powers and conflicts, plus add-ons for others.

I'll vote for this idea.:up:

[kylania]

Since I've been playing SH4 lately more I find I'm missing being in a uboat. :) Not sure, but the Atlantic fight just "feels" more "WWII Submariney" to me.

[Rotor]

Atlantic forever!:rock:

[EugenHund]

Personally I think the coolest option would be for a pan-WWII subsim, where you could choose to fight for any nation in the war across any theatre that nation had subs in. That would simply rock. However, if I had to choose one country, one theatre, I'd definately go for Atlantic. Why, you ask?
1. Generally spoken life became easier and targets fewer towards the end of the war for the American skippers, whereas the exact opposite was the case for the Germans.
2. There was much more development in Germany with many more interesting scenarios to explore. Why not spend some of your late-war renown taking a Molch or Manta into battle trial. That would be so cool. Some times I find myself not caring about my renown in SH4. There's so little to spend it on. Once your crew has survived four or five patrols, they've become so übercool that you have no reason to get new crew (unless there are fatalities), I've yet to get the opportunity to transfer (I'm only in to the very beginning of '43 in my first career), and there's no way to upgrade or downgrade your sub (as far as I know). Development is so slow, I only experienced one new Air Search radar and one Surface Search radar plus the Mark 23 fast-only torpedo, which I see no reason in spending renown on.
So although I generally like SH4 (despite bugs and all), I prefer to fight in the atlantic. I've even started to consider buying SH3 and upgrade it with the GWX-pack,which I've never experienced but heard only good about, just to get the old "DB-feeling" back again.
"Where do you want to fight?", you ask.
"Let the World be my playground, every ocean my mistress and every submarine my instrument", I say. Give me room!

[rulle34]

Atlantic :yep:

[supposedtobeworking]

It's time to go nuclear. SH5 should go nuclear...the last nuke subsim to include a nifty graphic environment as well as pretty good gameplay was Fast Attack from Sierra. Ubisoft should make a pretty and 3D interactive nuke subsim now and get it over with. 688/Dangerous Waters is great...but not much immersion graphics wise...ubisoft should take the ball and run with it.

[_Seth_]

Atlantic for the win!:up::up::up::up::up:

[rodan54]

A WWII subsim is a WWII subsim, regardless of which nation I'm fighting for. :up:

[Calbeck]

I had to wait HOW many years between SH1 and SH4? And people want to go right back to playing in the Atlantic in the next version, when they already have the superior SH3 to play with? About the only thing you'll get out of an SH5 being in the Atlantic is better graphics --- overall gameplay will be almost identical (unless someone screws up really badly).

Not to mention that almost every OTHER sub sim done since SH1 has ALSO been set in the Atlantic. It's a two-ton b***h finding anything at all to play in the Pacific that isn't so dated it creaks.

Meanwhile, Ubi isn't even finished getting all the bits in SH4 working right.

Gimme a BREAK, here! :down:

[Q3ark]

I don't know about anyone else, but i would like to see some action in the medeteranian with some of the British fleet boats. They didn't have an easy time out there due to the med being rather shallow.

[KrvKpt. Falke]

I had to wait HOW many years between SH1 and SH4? And people want to go right back to playing in the Atlantic in the next version, when they already have the superior SH3 to play with? About the only thing you'll get out of an SH5 being in the Atlantic is better graphics --- overall gameplay will be almost identical (unless someone screws up really badly).

Not to mention that almost every OTHER sub sim done since SH1 has ALSO been set in the Atlantic. It's a two-ton b***h finding anything at all to play in the Pacific that isn't so dated it creaks.

Meanwhile, Ubi isn't even finished getting all the bits in SH4 working right.

Gimme a BREAK, here! :down:

But if someone is playing SH3 since 2005 there's nothing left to do there. You know: youve been everywhere, sunk every type of ship 1000 times, moded the game to its limits... SDK in hands of modders could mean a second life for SH3 but without it theres is only one choice: SH5. And its not about better graphics, its about better gameplay (search this forum for all those threads about SH5 and "ultimate" sub simulator to find out what peoples expectations are).
What you said: "overall gameplay will be almost identical" i would refer to SH3 vs SH4. I think that no metter which theatre the devs will choose they need to do something really revolutionary with SH5 (they did it with SH3 - it was a revolution in sub-sim games - but SH4 is only small evolution in graphics) - only that way the gameplay wont be identical to SH3/4s.
And why Atlantic - not Pacific? In my opinion Atlantic is more interesting and entertaining, it has this feeling of hunting and being hunted, almost every one is your enemy there. Pacific it so traditional: you are the good one and fighting against the bad one, and you will win.

[Iron Budokan]

I just don't agree the only thing we would get out of a SH5 in the Atlantic is better graphics. There is so much more to model re: crew interaction, dynamic campaign issues, scenery, a fully functional sub, not to mention the intricate detail of running the sub itself and ability to move throughout the boat. A veritable ton of stuff can be done.

We ain't seen nothin' yet, imo.... :rock:

[Convoystalker]

Why ask for more of the same ?? Request a WW1 game based on the German side using graphics of SH4.
If anything such a simulation would provide a welcome selection of new subs, naval vessels merchants & aircraft plus other opportunities if the tradition of creating strictly historical simulations could be slightly expanded.

What it needs to appeal to a wider audience is .....
1. A back end story, intrigue & player involvement in strategic decisions of a limited nature.
2. SH3 style modeling & walkthrough capability of all sub compartments complete with crew members who have a range of conversation & replies to questions.
3. Use of 1st person scenes & cutscenes in base to replace the one page medal ceremonies, upgrade screens & briefings.
4. WW1 operations including prize rules, minelaying, submarine nets, Q Ships, limited scale wolfpacks.

By back end story .... perhaps a growing romance between the commander & admirals secretary carried on between patrols plus a dynamic espionage network involving 1st person meetings, planning - insertion - extraction - resupply operations by the commander acting as a trusted confidant of the admiral & naval intelligence.

For a dynamic espionage - intelligence network it requires a map of England, Ireland, Orkneys, Shetlands & other small islands where gradually a network of coastwatchers, radio operators, spies in towns & dockyards are installed.
These assets provide real time eyes on the ship reporting and sometimes additional information and the commanders influence at admiralty-intelligence meetings partly determines where these limited assets are to be located.

Concentrate on spotting coastal shipping, attempt deeper penetration of docks to learn of convoy routes, or concentrate on the movements of British naval forces ?

For instance. A convoy is shown leaving Liverpool with the traditional direction tail, speed & size. With the help of spies a destination & perhaps expected date of arrival is additionally provided. The volume & accuracy of information could be partly based on spies experience & rank similar to crew experience.
Possibilities & mechanisms that spies can be occasionally discovered need to exist & hence their flow of information from a particular location could stop till a fresh agent can be inserted .... just like dead sub crew needing replacement.
So rather than haphazard reports all over the place the provision of information becomes more specialized & accurate .... and influenced by the players decisions.

More of the same or fresh ideas :|\\

[tater]

If a unique theater had to be chosen, I suppose I might be interested in WW1. WW2 Atlantic I won't buy unless I can sink U-boats (and not by my lack of skill as a submariner, but as a DDD/DE skipper), I have zero desire to play one.

I think a better model for a new game would be to absolutely concentrate on the game engine. Better visuals, better crew interactivity, better AI, more powerful campaign tools (persistance, dynamism, etc), etc. Design the game with the idea that it will be for BOTH theaters. Sell the base game engine with some boats from both areas, then sell add-on packs with each theater done in detail.

[vindex]

I do kind of like the idea of WWI. Same, but different.

I agree that there is a lot that can be done with crew interaction, more interactive sub, etc.

I am always amused when people say "There won't be any more Silent Hunter because we complained too much about SH4". Please. Name me one company that has ever dropped a successful product line because customers were hard to please. Really, name me one. Unprofitable ... yes. Hard to please ... no. If hard-to-please, irritable, grumpy customers were a reason for not doing business, the entire airline, tourism, hotel, and restaurant industries would cease to exist tomorrow.

Also, for those of you who know about market segmentation, it is true that the hardcore sim gamer segment is a small one in terms of sales, but I remember doing an EA case in business school about the launch of "The Sims: Online" and it was very clear that while small, the hardcore segment was considered highly influential because it comprised a disproportionate portion of early sales and word of mouth.

I believe there will be a SH5. I don't know if Ubisoft will make it, or whether it will be called SH5. But I am certain there will be a next-generation product.

[Donavan]

Don't care, I won't buy it until after it's playable. Maybe 6 months to a year.

[Uber Gruber]

I think i'd like to see the Atlantic done "well" before proceeding to other theatres. SH3 was good but not excellent, there were no Wolfpacks which is an essential part of the Atlantic theatre. Milk Cows had to be modded in and could be so much better. The sub should be moddeled in its entirety, allowing us to move throughout all the compartments. Damage was and still is terribly implemented. Sh3 and SH4 are still too "gamey" when they really need to be "simulations". I think the game mechanics need to be redesigned from the ground up in an open format, then bolt on a graphics engine. I could go on and on, the list is pretty endless and SH3 achieved about 30% of that list.

[joea]

I really hate to ask, but why do any of you even think we'll get an SH5 after all the drama? :hmm:

[tommyk]

SH5? Hmm, I wish it to be more a sim... I dont like to hear with sonar through islands... I like to have radar echos from landmass...

[Mudrik]

I think that discussing SH5 is a bit premature seeing as SHIV is still a fantastic game which has yet to realise it's full potential but I agree with the suggestion that SH5 should be set in WWII with the choice to play missions or campaigns in either the Atlantic or the Pacific and also play as any nationality (obviously only the ones that had subs - joining the Nepalese Navy may be a pretty poor career choice).

One of my other favourite games is IL-2. The ability to play as any nationality in any theater is a sound option. Sometimes I want to shoot down Spitfires, sometimes ME109s, however the mood takes me.

I also think that WWII games are much more immersive. When I was a kid jet fighters and nuclear subs were cool but as you get older and wiser you gain more respect for the chaps that fought in the 2 world wars.

Nuclear subs are boring. Fire and forget active torps, massive depths, 6 months at sea constantly submerged, ICBMs from thousands of miles away. Where's the fun and tension in that?

[robbierob2005]

Please wwii in the atlantic! Perhaps with a full modelled boat.

[Drifter9]

I'd like to see the Pacific again, maybe with Japan and the US both as playable sides. I don't want to see the Atlantic again because, as nice as SH3 was, I hate playing as a Nazi.:nope:
What I'd really like to see is a fictional cold war SH5 set in the late fifties between NATO and the Warsaw pact. I’d love to see some diesel boat vs diesel boat combat. I think it would be interesting with surface ships having better ASW but still using charges among other things. Plus you could have some guided and some old fashion torpedoes too. It would be a nice gap between WW2 sub games and 688(I) and those newer sub games. It wouldn't be some all electro fire and forget game you would still have some old school sub combat with some very cool looking subs.

[Binky1st]

The next silent hunter if there is one should be modern day some we can nuke people we dont like;)

[Mudrik]

I'd like to see the Pacific again, maybe with Japan and the US both as playable sides. I don't want to see the Atlantic again because, as nice as SH3 was, I hate playing as a Nazi.:nope:

Check your history, not all Germans were Nazis you know, especially not U-boat crews. They were brave men who faced near certain death everytime they left port. Once radar was developed to a point where the escort destroyers could pinpoint even a periscope, the U-boats were doomed and yet the mad man that Hitler was just kept on sending them off to their deaths

[tater]

Yeah, most French were in the resistance, too. :roll:

You can look at this 2 ways, you can only count card-carrying members, and then maybe you are right. You can also count passive supporters, in which case you are likely wrong. During the "happy time" how many hated the regime they were supporting through their actions? How many hated the regime when they were losing? Fair weather...

It would be insulting (and stupid) to imply that any player here is a Nazi for playing SH3, it's a game. Implying that you are immunized from that charge because real u-boats somehow weren't "Nazi" is BS, IMO. At the very least they were the willing tools of that regime. Anyone who didn't actively sabotage the war effort was complicit in some way. If they really hated their masters they could have defected. A massive u-boat defection would have done far more to save German lives than being so very effective because it would have shortened the war.

This is particularly true of U-boats, BTW, since they had a freedom of operation that no infantry guys could ever have hoped for. Once at sea, they were utterly free to do as they pleased and no one would ever know they were not simply sunk (most submarines were lost ithout a trace).

[Mudrik]

I would never suggest that anyone is a Nazi. I live in a country where there are political forces who believe in white supremacy and recently returned from a trip to Germany where there is a growing neo-nazi movement which is very frightening.

Sure the Nazis were fanatics but I am sure that most Germans were fighting to protect their country and their loved ones at home. Many ordinary Germans supported Hitler because he originally gave them hope after their defeat in WW1 and the subsequent economic depression.

To suggest that every German who didn't defect must have been a fanatic is so wrong. Plenty of Germans were put against a wall and shot for disagreeing with the Nazis. Have you ever heard of the plot to assassinate Hitler? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20_Plot) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20_Plot%29). Enough high ranking Wermacht officers were tortured and shot for even knowing about the plot.

Anyway, this is all a matter of opinion and I am not here to fall out with anyone. When it comes to games there is no harm in playing the Germans, afterall, they did have the best uniforms! :lol:

[tater]

A handfull of officers after it should have been crystal clear to everyone they had long since lost any hope of winning, or even a negotiated peace. That's it, huh? The evidence of people not liking the regime...

Sorry, but it took many many hundreds of thousands of willing actors just to accomplish the worst crimes of the 3d Reich. Yes, I do think that failing to act proactively is tantamount to complicity. Fighting to protect their homes? From WHAT exactly? Both of the "Happy Times" for U-boats were during a period where the Axis was winning as far as anyone in Germany would have known (eastern front only beginning to go really sour and it's not like they got unadulterated news). What was U-boat morale like? Any plots in June 1940? No, people were giddy.

Passive support was far more prevalent than you might imagine. I actually used to have lunch periodically with a history prof who retired here. He was an intelligence officer for the WM on the eastern front (he studied russian at university) before he was transferred to France, then taken POW after France was liberated (then moved to the US at some point and became a professor). The "worker's party" was quite popular until things went south according to him. They just went with the flow, and when things were looking good, the party looked great to everyone, nevermind the boxcars, we own France! Interesting lunches, I'd mention a subject, then just sit back and listen for an hour. Always felt a little odd though. As nice a guy as he was at lunch, there was always this sense of something untold... dunno, I felt a little "dirty" sometimes after talking with him, though the first hand accounts were fascinating.

This is obviously way OT, it's just that the "they were just doing their jobs" nonsense annoys me is all. People in general should be held responsible for their action—or inaction—in the face of evil IMO.

[Ula Jolly]

GNF!
Controllable surface ships! :damn: I want a game for exactly the same as SH3 - only with surface ships. Hawmigod, WWI/WWII would just be so awesome. :doh: Perhaps made a bit unrealistic in order to make it more fun and get more kills, but YES I want to control that armed trawler in '38 and progress to a light cruiser on a PQ-convoy under attack by some dreaded battleships! :D

[kv29]

no need for sh5 yet. The next step for UBI should be an expantion pack for the Atlantic & Mediterranean sea with Uboats again, a good storyline, and a few changes of course.

[orangenee]

Tater, a phrase comes to mind about the last part of your post. "All it takes for the triumph of evil is for good men to stand by and do nothing."

[Takeda Shingen]

Mars. SH5 should be on Mars. With robots. Lots of tiny, tiny robots.

[Mudrik]

Hmmm, this is all getting very off subject isn't it. Perhaps we should start a thread called "The moralities of conflict between nations throughout history"?

I will have my say though. As for the "just doing their jobs" nonsense? Do you mean that in all conflicts throughout history the participants on both sides have actually wanted to kick the crap out of each other for no reason other than their political beliefs and that there is no sense of self preservation or desire to protect your home, your family and your friends from destruction?

As for giddy? Well I think that you will find that national pride takes a very firm grasp of the population at times. I've seen the euphoria that sweeps a nation during the (football) world cup when there are national flags hanging from every house and car. I can clearly remember as a youngster the press and television coverage of a war that was taking place thousand of miles away on sovereign soil, where everyone I knew wanted every one of the enemy dead although we had no understanding of what was happening.

Hmmm, how about creating as much false propaganda and raising the levels of terror within the very heart of your nation that they will back you to the hilt in a war that has been manufactured as a means to secure a future supply of oil? That's another evil administration if you ask me (no names, no names).

War is hell and in a "them or us" situation I think you will find that everyone will chose the "them" option regardless of the sanity or soundness of the politics of themselves or their leaders and regardless of whether they believe in or want to become involved in the situation.

And here's another quote "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". It all depends on what side of the fence you are sitting on and whether you have the balls to climb over the fence and shake hands.

[Mudrik]

Ancient Times, Greeks vs Romans, wooden subs, rowed by slaves, sails, ramming speed, mythical undersea monsters that can eat your sub whole.........

[tater]

If someone actually believed that their leadership was EVIL and didn't fight it (and I do mean fight, as in take up arms), they might as well shut up about it. Put up, or shut up.

Faced with real evil, that's the choice. Protests, rock concerts and puppet shows? No. It's either worth actually fighting, or it isn't actually evil to you, you just disagree with it.

The rationale behind why they might be giddy doesn't matter. During that time they were. They were happy, and they supported it. They also damn well knew that a substantial percentage of their neighbors back home were being disappeared. My friend's mom grew up in Austria during the war. She said they knew that the people in those trains that went by where she lived were not coming back---and she was a kid. Another friend's mom was a kid in Belgium during the war (her mom made the poor choice of deciding to have her 2d kid back in the old country in the early spring of 1940). She said they knew what was going on (she was a teenager by the end of the war). She helped treat allied soldiers, actually.


<S>

[heartc]

Hmmm, this is all getting very off subject isn't it. Perhaps we should start a thread called "The moralities of conflict between nations throughout history"?

I will have my say though. As for the "just doing their jobs" nonsense? Do you mean that in all conflicts throughout history the participants on both sides have actually wanted to kick the crap out of each other for no reason other than their political beliefs and that there is no sense of self preservation or desire to protect your home, your family and your friends from destruction?

As for giddy? Well I think that you will find that national pride takes a very firm grasp of the population at times. I've seen the euphoria that sweeps a nation during the (football) world cup when there are national flags hanging from every house and car. I can clearly remember as a youngster the press and television coverage of a war that was taking place thousand of miles away on sovereign soil, where everyone I knew wanted every one of the enemy dead although we had no understanding of what was happening.

Hmmm, how about creating as much false propaganda and raising the levels of terror within the very heart of your nation that they will back you to the hilt in a war that has been manufactured as a means to secure a future supply of oil? That's another evil administration if you ask me (no names, no names).

War is hell and in a "them or us" situation I think you will find that everyone will chose the "them" option regardless of the sanity or soundness of the politics of themselves or their leaders and regardless of whether they believe in or want to become involved in the situation.

And here's another quote "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". It all depends on what side of the fence you are sitting on and whether you have the balls to climb over the fence and shake hands.


I hate moral relativism and people who lack a moral compass. Just lump it all into one. Makes it easy, doesn't it, in that you don't have to take sides and can never be wrong. And even gassing millions of innocent people will look much less bad all of a sudden. And it's all Bush's fault, we know already...:roll:

If you want to understand what kept the Nazis in power back then, just take a look at the rabid Anti-Americanism in most of Europe which is devoid of all reason and you get an idea of mass hysteria. And spare both of us the spiel that it's just about Bush. It's getting old.

[heartc]

If someone actually believed that their leadership was EVIL and didn't fight it (and I do mean fight, as in take up arms), they might as well shut up about it. Put up, or shut up.

Faced with real evil, that's the choice. Protests, rock concerts and puppet shows? No. It's either worth actually fighting, or it isn't actually evil to you, you just disagree with it.

The rationale behind why they might be giddy doesn't matter. During that time they were. They were happy, and they supported it. They also damn well knew that a substantial percentage of their neighbors back home were being disappeared. My friend's mom grew up in Austria during the war. She said they knew that the people in those trains that went by where she lived were not coming back---and she was a kid. Another friend's mom was a kid in Belgium during the war (her mom made the poor choice of deciding to have her 2d kid back in the old country in the early spring of 1940). She said they knew what was going on (she was a teenager by the end of the war). She helped treat allied soldiers, actually.


<S>

Also, Hitler himself made his intentions pretty clear several times, including before he was in power. Complete abolishment of all parties in the Reichstag and the extermination of the Jewish race in Europe.
Seems like that was not an issue for most people as long as they got a job for it. Talk about wrong priorities. Well, no one told them about what else they would get - they thought it would just hit the Jews. If those evil British and Americans hadn't started throwing fire from the sky, all could have been so nice really!

[VonBlade]

And spare both of us the spiel that it's just about Bush. It's getting old.

And please send your answers to :

Where the hell did he get Bush from in that quote?
c/o The Democratic Party
Somewhere
USA.

[Mudrik]

This whole "how moralistic are you" discussion is getting too off topic. If you want to continue to discuss the matter I welcome you:-

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=554793#post554793

[Packerton]

Atlantic most defintly.

THe SH 4 engine is amazeing, Ive never played a game that looks like a moveing Oil Painting, its amazeing.

SH 3 is still the better GAME in my opinion with GWX but Sh 4 is unique too.

Atlantic + SH 4 engine = win.

[Sailor Steve]

Mars. SH5 should be on Mars. With robots. Lots of tiny, tiny robots.
Shame on you. You forgot silent: tiny, silent robots.

[kiwi_2005]

I would like to see modern subs this time, trouble is if they do a modern sub sim it would probably be like Dangerous Waters a bit difficult in the learning process, which might put of a lot of ww2 silent hunter players. You think manual targetting world war two subs is tricky, well welcome to the modern subsim! If they can make the game still realistic but not the 500page manual 6 months later finally figured out sonar/targetting gameplay then it could be a success.

A game comes to mind "Fast attack" was just right, not hard yet felt realistic enough - except for the silly 2hr mission limit.